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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/475853/
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BG's need a Dynamic Cap system.

Xsorus
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Right now watching a streamer run into premade after premade in BG's

and the one thing I can't help but wonder, Why hasn't ZOS learned from Previous games mistakes and come up with a Dynamic Cap system in a BG?

Previous games handled Premades poorly; they often either separated them into another queue (Which increased Queue time on them and thus made them not play BG's, and increased queue time on everyone else as you just took a bunch of people out of the system) or they did nothing..resulting in premades stomping pugs over and over again.

This is what made made massive open world systems always better, Premade stomping on Pugs? What did Pugs naturally do? increased their numbers (yes zerg) to compensate for Group disparity.

This is where a Dynamic Cap system is needed in a BG system. Note i'm not talking about an Arena System where you have two premades going against one another and a MMR to balance it out.

I'm talking about in a BG system that's designed more for fast play.

Now what is a Dynamic Cap system? Take a 4 Man Group playing together and queuing, Now right now if you have them playing they're thrown into a fight against two 4 man pugs in a 4v4v4, They'll stomp that group. However with a Dynamic Cap system the game would look at the fact that the 4 man is running together and compensate by making the other teams 6 mans, So now its 4v6v6. They probably will still wreck the opposing teams but it'll be harder.

This would be the fastest and easiest way to balance a BG system.
  • ChunkyCat
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    ZoS says “Thank you for your feedback. We’ll take that into consideration.”
  • Solariken
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    While I find your idea interesting I don't think they would go for that.

    A similar alternative would be to make all deathmatch games 8v8v8 and keep the maximum premade team size of 4 (and then fill non-premade teams first, which should greatly reduce the potency of any one premade. Idk just spit-balling.
    Edited by Solariken on September 30, 2018 5:13PM
  • Thogard
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    Let’s be absolutely clear about one thing: the problem isn’t premades. The problem is when premades get put in the same match as solo queue players.

    The rationale behind not having separate queues for premades and solo queues is that the population can’t sustain two queues.

    It’s a valid point, but there is a way around it.

    Allow premades to queue for the solo queue and the group queue at the same time. If they get put in the solo queue first (which will probably happen), then the group gets randomly separated between the three teams. So they’re playing in the same match but on different teams.

    This also means that if a premade is out there that only wants to fight other premades (my favorite type of PvP) then they can queue exclusively for the premade bg and won’t have to worry about having pugs get put in on a third team. As is, too many premade v premade fights are won based on which team farms the third pug team more aggressively... and that’s a crappy system that isn’t fun for the premades and certainly isn’t fun for the pugs.

    I’d also say that for the premade v premade queue, allow matches to start with only two teams if the queue takes longer than 5 min or so.

    Also we could do a separate ranking system for each queue and have the premade ranking system more indicative of win rate rather than # of games played.

    This system is ideal because:
    1. It allows organized “competitive” gameplay.. if premades want to try hard, they can try hard without guilt because their opponents will be premades too
    2. Premades can still go into the solo queue if they have no other premade to fight. This ensures the group can stay together and play together, but will lose their massive advantage for being organized. This is a great compromise. It also ensures that splitting the queues won’t hurt the population.

    The only people who wouldn’t find this system an improvement over the current one are the premades that exist only for the purpose of pug stomping. And I think we’re all ok with that. If those premades don’t want to have to fight the “tryhard” premades like mine, then they can go into the solo queue and play on separate teams.
    Edited by Thogard on September 30, 2018 10:35PM
    PC NA - Thogard / Sir Thogalot / Thoggy Boi jr / Thogaine / Madam Clamslam

    twitch.tv/ThogardPvP
  • Solariken
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    @thogard for BG president 2018

    So elegant - separate queues with all of the boons and none of the banes.
  • Xsorus
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    Thogard wrote: »
    Let’s be absolutely clear about one thing: the problem isn’t premades. The problem is when premades get put in the same match as solo queue players.

    The rationale behind not having separate queues for premades and solo queues is that the population can’t sustain two queues.

    It’s a valid point, but there is a way around it.

    Allow premades to queue for the solo queue and the group queue at the same time. If they get put in the solo queue first (which will probably happen), then the group gets randomly separated between the three teams. So they’re playing in the same match but on different teams.

    This also means that if a premade is out there that only wants to fight other premades (my favorite type of PvP) then they can queue exclusively for the premade bg and won’t have to worry about having pugs get put in on a third team. As is, too many premade v premade fights are won based on which team farms the third pug team more aggressively... and that’s a crappy system that isn’t fun for the premades and certainly isn’t fun for the pugs.

    I’d also say that for the premade v premade queue, allow matches to start with only two teams if the queue takes longer than 5 min or so.

    Also we could do a separate ranking system for each queue and have the premade ranking system more indicative of win rate rather than # of games played.

    This system is ideal because:
    1. It allows organized “competitive” gameplay.. if premades want to try hard, they can try hard without guilt because their opponents will be premades too
    2. Premades can still go into the solo queue if they have no other premade to fight. This ensures the group can stay together and play together, but will lose their massive advantage for being organized. This is a great compromise. It also ensures that splitting the queues won’t hurt the population.

    The only people who wouldn’t find this system an improvement over the current one are the premades that exist only for the purpose of pug stomping. And I think we’re all ok with that. If those premades don’t want to have to fight the “tryhard” premades like mine, then they can go into the solo queue and play on separate teams.

    it would result in higher queue times in Premade Vs premade...Even higher then just having a premade vs premade queue time which would already be high.

    It would still probably keep the solo queuing going decently enough, but Premade vs Premade would be a waste of time mostly.

  • Thogard
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    Xsorus wrote: »
    Thogard wrote: »
    Let’s be absolutely clear about one thing: the problem isn’t premades. The problem is when premades get put in the same match as solo queue players.

    The rationale behind not having separate queues for premades and solo queues is that the population can’t sustain two queues.

    It’s a valid point, but there is a way around it.

    Allow premades to queue for the solo queue and the group queue at the same time. If they get put in the solo queue first (which will probably happen), then the group gets randomly separated between the three teams. So they’re playing in the same match but on different teams.

    This also means that if a premade is out there that only wants to fight other premades (my favorite type of PvP) then they can queue exclusively for the premade bg and won’t have to worry about having pugs get put in on a third team. As is, too many premade v premade fights are won based on which team farms the third pug team more aggressively... and that’s a crappy system that isn’t fun for the premades and certainly isn’t fun for the pugs.

    I’d also say that for the premade v premade queue, allow matches to start with only two teams if the queue takes longer than 5 min or so.

    Also we could do a separate ranking system for each queue and have the premade ranking system more indicative of win rate rather than # of games played.

    This system is ideal because:
    1. It allows organized “competitive” gameplay.. if premades want to try hard, they can try hard without guilt because their opponents will be premades too
    2. Premades can still go into the solo queue if they have no other premade to fight. This ensures the group can stay together and play together, but will lose their massive advantage for being organized. This is a great compromise. It also ensures that splitting the queues won’t hurt the population.

    The only people who wouldn’t find this system an improvement over the current one are the premades that exist only for the purpose of pug stomping. And I think we’re all ok with that. If those premades don’t want to have to fight the “tryhard” premades like mine, then they can go into the solo queue and play on separate teams.

    it would result in higher queue times in Premade Vs premade...Even higher then just having a premade vs premade queue time which would already be high.

    It would still probably keep the solo queuing going decently enough, but Premade vs Premade would be a waste of time mostly.

    there currently is no queue time for premade v premade though

    on PC NA i can't remember the last time i had a round of consistent premade v premade fights that didn't have at least one team as a pug.
    PC NA - Thogard / Sir Thogalot / Thoggy Boi jr / Thogaine / Madam Clamslam

    twitch.tv/ThogardPvP
  • Kikke
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    When I go BGs with my friends it is to play with them, not some random NB sniper that hides away 80% of the game. So any idea of 'splitting premades' would just make me quit BGs and go back to cyro.

    Oh wait! Thats so laggy its unplayable... so yah, quit PvP then I guess. As I dont play MMOs to play solo, got singelplayer games for that.
    Cleared Trials:
    - vAA HM - vHRC HM - vSO HM - vMoL HM - vHoF HM - vAS HM - vCR HM -

    "The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step, and a lot of bitching."
    -Someone said it, I guess.
  • Thogard
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    kikkehs wrote: »
    When I go BGs with my friends it is to play with them, not some random NB sniper that hides away 80% of the game. So any idea of 'splitting premades' would just make me quit BGs and go back to cyro.

    Oh wait! Thats so laggy its unplayable... so yah, quit PvP then I guess. As I dont play MMOs to play solo, got singelplayer games for that.

    Sure. So with my system, you would just queue for the premade queue and not check the box for queueing in the singles queue as well. You would only fight other premades and might have to wait longer though.

    Table for 8 at a restaurant usually has to wait longer than a table for 2
    PC NA - Thogard / Sir Thogalot / Thoggy Boi jr / Thogaine / Madam Clamslam

    twitch.tv/ThogardPvP
  • Xsorus
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    Thogard wrote: »
    Xsorus wrote: »
    Thogard wrote: »
    Let’s be absolutely clear about one thing: the problem isn’t premades. The problem is when premades get put in the same match as solo queue players.

    The rationale behind not having separate queues for premades and solo queues is that the population can’t sustain two queues.

    It’s a valid point, but there is a way around it.

    Allow premades to queue for the solo queue and the group queue at the same time. If they get put in the solo queue first (which will probably happen), then the group gets randomly separated between the three teams. So they’re playing in the same match but on different teams.

    This also means that if a premade is out there that only wants to fight other premades (my favorite type of PvP) then they can queue exclusively for the premade bg and won’t have to worry about having pugs get put in on a third team. As is, too many premade v premade fights are won based on which team farms the third pug team more aggressively... and that’s a crappy system that isn’t fun for the premades and certainly isn’t fun for the pugs.

    I’d also say that for the premade v premade queue, allow matches to start with only two teams if the queue takes longer than 5 min or so.

    Also we could do a separate ranking system for each queue and have the premade ranking system more indicative of win rate rather than # of games played.

    This system is ideal because:
    1. It allows organized “competitive” gameplay.. if premades want to try hard, they can try hard without guilt because their opponents will be premades too
    2. Premades can still go into the solo queue if they have no other premade to fight. This ensures the group can stay together and play together, but will lose their massive advantage for being organized. This is a great compromise. It also ensures that splitting the queues won’t hurt the population.

    The only people who wouldn’t find this system an improvement over the current one are the premades that exist only for the purpose of pug stomping. And I think we’re all ok with that. If those premades don’t want to have to fight the “tryhard” premades like mine, then they can go into the solo queue and play on separate teams.

    it would result in higher queue times in Premade Vs premade...Even higher then just having a premade vs premade queue time which would already be high.

    It would still probably keep the solo queuing going decently enough, but Premade vs Premade would be a waste of time mostly.

    there currently is no queue time for premade v premade though

    on PC NA i can't remember the last time i had a round of consistent premade v premade fights that didn't have at least one team as a pug.

    Lets say you did the first queue and the second queue, it was constantly split those groups up and throw them into BG's, While they're in other BG's split up, they wouldn't be playing other Premades, therefor Premade time would increase.

    Lets say they do just Premade vs Premade queue, Lets say you have 4 premades actually running, that means 1 premade probably going to be left out everytime, Increasing queue times.

    Queue times can end up getting pretty drastic as well....Take Rift, it had a premade vs premade queue after people complained, anything past just 2 players (meaning if you ran 3 it was a premade) got placed in this queue. We went from 2 to 5 minute queues (running 6 people at the time) to 1 hour queue's over night..So we started dropping down to duoing, and quickly quitting the game afterwards...cause we couldn't play together, which is where your first suggestion would run into problems, people wouldn't be playing together when they wanted to.

    This is personally why i dislike BG's in general; because you run into these problems, they're basically Campaign Population problems on a small scale.

  • Fake Remedy
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    Morning NA BG friends!

    Always an interesting read. Good ideas, imo the more the Devs tinker with the MatchMakingRating system the more it goes into disarray and thus so does the population/balance/queue times.

    Lets be real, Battlegrounds is not the arena for the level and quality of competition you, I and many others have experienced in previous and current mmorpgs. Hence why, as all sub cultures/communities do, make you own scene/arena. You guys on NA already do that right?
    away from eso until they add ranked deathmatch bgs
    [EU PC] @fake_remedy
    Discord: fake_remedy#3254
    Twitch
    YouTube
  • weedgenius
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    They should make it so solo players have the option to queue with or without premades. Basically two queues except solo players can choose to queue with premades or choose “I don’t care” or w/e. That way queues will still move fast and when solo players get put up against premades the onus is on them because they knew what they were getting into.
    PS4 NA
  • Thogard
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    Morning NA BG friends!

    Always an interesting read. Good ideas, imo the more the Devs tinker with the MatchMakingRating system the more it goes into disarray and thus so does the population/balance/queue times.

    Lets be real, Battlegrounds is not the arena for the level and quality of competition you, I and many others have experienced in previous and current mmorpgs. Hence why, as all sub cultures/communities do, make you own scene/arena. You guys on NA already do that right?

    Yeah but it takes a *** ton of planning to set it up.

    Would be great if it just happened automatically ;)
    PC NA - Thogard / Sir Thogalot / Thoggy Boi jr / Thogaine / Madam Clamslam

    twitch.tv/ThogardPvP
  • Fake Remedy
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    @Thogard I've just started putting together an discord adaptation of an old irc full group vs full group pvp system from DoAC/WAR. It minimal, self-sufficient and healthy. Drop me a message on discord @fake_remedy#3254


    away from eso until they add ranked deathmatch bgs
    [EU PC] @fake_remedy
    Discord: fake_remedy#3254
    Twitch
    YouTube
  • SouthernSoldjer
    Just get good
  • MeisterGrilla
    MeisterGrilla
    Soul Shriven
    +1 for solo and group queues being kept separate.

    I'm sorry, but no matter what level you are doing BG's at, queuing against two four man teams running four different (and seemingly stacking) poisons does not make for a balanced system. 9 out of 10 of my matches are just that and it's gotten seriously old, and seriously annoying to get used to how the fights work when you get one or two banged by an entire team on voice chat.

    Sorry, but no, the way it is -is- broken and unfair to solo queued players. Splitting the teams won't work either, since they will still all know who each other is and that gives them the opportunity to completely throw the fight for their buddies. No matter how you want to slice it, there's s massive disparity here and it does need to be addressed.
  • Rizz_the_Filthy_Dino
    I think we're all trying to look at the nitty-gritty of the situation, like how we fix the current state of it when we should take a step back and think of an alternate solution. Have it so premades can still queue with solo queue players; however, if there is another premade queuing at the same time on the entire server, it places both premades into a new seperate queue together. Once a third premade joins in, it pops immediately and forms the group so all three premades join. Looking for Group system based on roles could be a nice things too, just saying haha.

    This way the queue times aren't punishing for premades who would otherwise wait an eternity to face against other premades (based on MMR ranking averaged between team mates). If done this way, current queue times aren't at all affected, and premades can even get it to matches faster, but not more frequently face off against other premades.

    Just my two cents.
    Edited by Rizz_the_Filthy_Dino on October 13, 2018 11:10PM
    PC NA :: @Filthy_Rizz
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