Heavy armor bleed builds overperforming in PvP? CP

LegacyDM

Where is the HA trade off? High resistances, high damage, and good sustain? Lets take the following stamblade build:

Impregnable
fury
troll king

running bleeds and mirage.

How is this not over performing?\

GG zos.

Waffennacht

It is. It really is by the definitions stated by those that make such determinations.

I think in my other topic and posts I have clearly stated the reasons as to why I believe such

Amdar_Godkiller

This setup would not be very strong 1v1. In general I agree that heavy armor has too many good damage sets, as well. Both heavy and light armor do, fwiw, while there are no medium armor sets that come close to adding 600 weapon damage. That being said, the mitigation provided by heavy armor isn't that much in and of itself. Without other resistance buffs, this setup would have less than 30% resistance. Heavy armor only gets you an additional 10% or so over medium and only 13% or so more than light armor.


Also, changes to shuffle are a nerf for one, but secondly , you are complaining about heavy armor which doesn't even have access to shuffle, so it seems like you don't quite understand some of the mechanics of pvp.

Attacking heavy armor builds isn't really a challenge compared to fighting a shielded opponent.

1. Use Bleeds
2. Defile
3. CC and then swap between an Immobilizing skill and a channeled skill like flurry repeatedly until their immunity wears off to drain stamina
4. Onslaught


FWIW, running fury with impregnable seems somewhat counter productive, unless if you're going full sturdy.

susmitds

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

This setup would not be very strong 1v1. In general I agree that heavy armor has too many good damage sets, as well. Both heavy and light armor do, fwiw, while there are no medium armor sets that come close to adding 600 weapon damage. That being said, the mitigation provided by heavy armor isn't that much in and of itself. Without other resistance buffs, this setup would have less than 30% resistance. Heavy armor only gets you an additional 10% or so over medium and only 13% or so more than light armor.


Also, changes to shuffle are a nerf for one, but secondly , you are complaining about heavy armor which doesn't even have access to shuffle, so it seems like you don't quite understand some of the mechanics of pvp.

Attacking heavy armor builds isn't really a challenge compared to fighting a shielded opponent.

1. Use Bleeds
2. Defile
3. CC and then swap between an Immobilizing skill and a channeled skill like flurry repeatedly until their immunity wears off to drain stamina
4. Onslaught


FWIW, running fury with impregnable seems somewhat counter productive, unless if you're going full sturdy.

Fury + Impregnable is great actually. I run 7-well fitted Impreg+Truth Heavy and can roll as much any medium armor build, while way more defense and sustain that medium armor can provide.

LegacyDM

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

This setup would not be very strong 1v1. In general I agree that heavy armor has too many good damage sets, as well. Both heavy and light armor do, fwiw, while there are no medium armor sets that come close to adding 600 weapon damage. That being said, the mitigation provided by heavy armor isn't that much in and of itself. Without other resistance buffs, this setup would have less than 30% resistance. Heavy armor only gets you an additional 10% or so over medium and only 13% or so more than light armor.


Also, changes to shuffle are a nerf for one, but secondly , you are complaining about heavy armor which doesn't even have access to shuffle, so it seems like you don't quite understand some of the mechanics of pvp.

Attacking heavy armor builds isn't really a challenge compared to fighting a shielded opponent.

1. Use Bleeds
2. Defile
3. CC and then swap between an Immobilizing skill and a channeled skill like flurry repeatedly until their immunity wears off to drain stamina
4. Onslaught


FWIW, running fury with impregnable seems somewhat counter productive, unless if you're going full sturdy.

No i understand the mechanics. I forgot that shuffle doesn't work with HA. That was a change they made recently. That's why i removed from the OP. And it is very strong in 1v1.

IlCanis_LupuslI

You forgot the master dual wield axes....

LegacyDM

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

You forgot the master dual wield axes....

Well not everyone has access to master dual wield axes, but yes if someone is running them it makes the HA bleed builds even more OP.

One thing I didn't mention is time reverse ult. Add time reverse and now these builds are virtually unkillable.

Chilly-McFreeze

LegacyDM wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

This setup would not be very strong 1v1. In general I agree that heavy armor has too many good damage sets, as well. Both heavy and light armor do, fwiw, while there are no medium armor sets that come close to adding 600 weapon damage. That being said, the mitigation provided by heavy armor isn't that much in and of itself. Without other resistance buffs, this setup would have less than 30% resistance. Heavy armor only gets you an additional 10% or so over medium and only 13% or so more than light armor.


Also, changes to shuffle are a nerf for one, but secondly , you are complaining about heavy armor which doesn't even have access to shuffle, so it seems like you don't quite understand some of the mechanics of pvp.

Attacking heavy armor builds isn't really a challenge compared to fighting a shielded opponent.

1. Use Bleeds
2. Defile
3. CC and then swap between an Immobilizing skill and a channeled skill like flurry repeatedly until their immunity wears off to drain stamina
4. Onslaught


FWIW, running fury with impregnable seems somewhat counter productive, unless if you're going full sturdy.

No i understand the mechanics. I forgot that shuffle doesn't work with HA. That was a change they made recently. That's why i removed from the OP. And it is very strong in 1v1.

Recently... as in 1 year ago.

Amdar_Godkiller

susmitds wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

This setup would not be very strong 1v1. In general I agree that heavy armor has too many good damage sets, as well. Both heavy and light armor do, fwiw, while there are no medium armor sets that come close to adding 600 weapon damage. That being said, the mitigation provided by heavy armor isn't that much in and of itself. Without other resistance buffs, this setup would have less than 30% resistance. Heavy armor only gets you an additional 10% or so over medium and only 13% or so more than light armor.


Also, changes to shuffle are a nerf for one, but secondly , you are complaining about heavy armor which doesn't even have access to shuffle, so it seems like you don't quite understand some of the mechanics of pvp.

Attacking heavy armor builds isn't really a challenge compared to fighting a shielded opponent.

1. Use Bleeds
2. Defile
3. CC and then swap between an Immobilizing skill and a channeled skill like flurry repeatedly until their immunity wears off to drain stamina
4. Onslaught


FWIW, running fury with impregnable seems somewhat counter productive, unless if you're going full sturdy.

Fury + Impregnable is great actually. I run 7-well fitted Impreg+Truth Heavy and can roll as much any medium armor build, while way more defense and sustain that medium armor can provide.

Well-fitted is also a good way to go. But that means I can drain much more stamina from you with my channels. Potentially as much as 7000 per second if you block for a full second and aren't investing heavily in block cost reduction. Dodge roll cost is relatively cheap IMO compared to block cost. Also the nerf to dodge roll in murmire might make this less effective.

Amdar_Godkiller

susmitds wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

This setup would not be very strong 1v1. In general I agree that heavy armor has too many good damage sets, as well. Both heavy and light armor do, fwiw, while there are no medium armor sets that come close to adding 600 weapon damage. That being said, the mitigation provided by heavy armor isn't that much in and of itself. Without other resistance buffs, this setup would have less than 30% resistance. Heavy armor only gets you an additional 10% or so over medium and only 13% or so more than light armor.


Also, changes to shuffle are a nerf for one, but secondly , you are complaining about heavy armor which doesn't even have access to shuffle, so it seems like you don't quite understand some of the mechanics of pvp.

Attacking heavy armor builds isn't really a challenge compared to fighting a shielded opponent.

1. Use Bleeds
2. Defile
3. CC and then swap between an Immobilizing skill and a channeled skill like flurry repeatedly until their immunity wears off to drain stamina
4. Onslaught


FWIW, running fury with impregnable seems somewhat counter productive, unless if you're going full sturdy.

Fury + Impregnable is great actually. I run 7-well fitted Impreg+Truth Heavy and can roll as much any medium armor build, while way more defense and sustain that medium armor can provide.

Mostly I was pointing out that fury relies on taking critical damage, while ijmpreg prevents critical damage, so the two are counter intuitive if your crit resistance is at or above 3300, which is easy to pass with multiple impen or moderate investment in Resistant CP.

brandonv516

Where is the Magicka equivalent of Fury? I want it for my MagDK!

Chilly-McFreeze

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

This setup would not be very strong 1v1. In general I agree that heavy armor has too many good damage sets, as well. Both heavy and light armor do, fwiw, while there are no medium armor sets that come close to adding 600 weapon damage. That being said, the mitigation provided by heavy armor isn't that much in and of itself. Without other resistance buffs, this setup would have less than 30% resistance. Heavy armor only gets you an additional 10% or so over medium and only 13% or so more than light armor.


Also, changes to shuffle are a nerf for one, but secondly , you are complaining about heavy armor which doesn't even have access to shuffle, so it seems like you don't quite understand some of the mechanics of pvp.

Attacking heavy armor builds isn't really a challenge compared to fighting a shielded opponent.

1. Use Bleeds
2. Defile
3. CC and then swap between an Immobilizing skill and a channeled skill like flurry repeatedly until their immunity wears off to drain stamina
4. Onslaught


FWIW, running fury with impregnable seems somewhat counter productive, unless if you're going full sturdy.

Fury + Impregnable is great actually. I run 7-well fitted Impreg+Truth Heavy and can roll as much any medium armor build, while way more defense and sustain that medium armor can provide.

Mostly I was pointing out that fury relies on taking critical damage, while ijmpreg prevents critical damage, so the two are counter intuitive if your crit resistance is at or above 3300, which is easy to pass with multiple impen or moderate investment in Resistant CP.

What? I think you misunderstand how impen works. It doesn't prevent you from being crit, it simply lessens the extra damage. Even if you somehow obtain more crit resist than your opponent has crit damage, you will still recieve a crit, it just doesn't do more damage. Doesn't prevent Fury from proccing.

At least that's what I know. Same for shields atm. 100% crit resist but can still recieve a crit, just without extra damage.

LegacyDM

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

LegacyDM wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

This setup would not be very strong 1v1. In general I agree that heavy armor has too many good damage sets, as well. Both heavy and light armor do, fwiw, while there are no medium armor sets that come close to adding 600 weapon damage. That being said, the mitigation provided by heavy armor isn't that much in and of itself. Without other resistance buffs, this setup would have less than 30% resistance. Heavy armor only gets you an additional 10% or so over medium and only 13% or so more than light armor.


Also, changes to shuffle are a nerf for one, but secondly , you are complaining about heavy armor which doesn't even have access to shuffle, so it seems like you don't quite understand some of the mechanics of pvp.

Attacking heavy armor builds isn't really a challenge compared to fighting a shielded opponent.

1. Use Bleeds
2. Defile
3. CC and then swap between an Immobilizing skill and a channeled skill like flurry repeatedly until their immunity wears off to drain stamina
4. Onslaught


FWIW, running fury with impregnable seems somewhat counter productive, unless if you're going full sturdy.

No i understand the mechanics. I forgot that shuffle doesn't work with HA. That was a change they made recently. That's why i removed from the OP. And it is very strong in 1v1.

Recently... as in 1 year ago.

Has it been 1 year already? Swear the updates just blur together. Time flys. My bad.

moosegod

You will never find a medium armour set that adds 600 weapon damage like a heavy set because medium armour has 12% extra weapon damage (15% in the next patch) so 600 would add up to too much, that's why it's around 400 for medium sets.

Amdar_Godkiller

moosegod wrote: »

You will never find a medium armour set that adds 600 weapon damage like a heavy set because medium armour has 12% extra weapon damage (15% in the next patch) so 600 would add up to too much, that's why it's around 400 for medium sets.

The problem with that logic is it negates the benefits of medium armor. What good is 15% more weapon damage if every set that qualifies provides 33% less raw weapon damage than it would in other weights.

Amdar_Godkiller

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

This setup would not be very strong 1v1. In general I agree that heavy armor has too many good damage sets, as well. Both heavy and light armor do, fwiw, while there are no medium armor sets that come close to adding 600 weapon damage. That being said, the mitigation provided by heavy armor isn't that much in and of itself. Without other resistance buffs, this setup would have less than 30% resistance. Heavy armor only gets you an additional 10% or so over medium and only 13% or so more than light armor.


Also, changes to shuffle are a nerf for one, but secondly , you are complaining about heavy armor which doesn't even have access to shuffle, so it seems like you don't quite understand some of the mechanics of pvp.

Attacking heavy armor builds isn't really a challenge compared to fighting a shielded opponent.

1. Use Bleeds
2. Defile
3. CC and then swap between an Immobilizing skill and a channeled skill like flurry repeatedly until their immunity wears off to drain stamina
4. Onslaught


FWIW, running fury with impregnable seems somewhat counter productive, unless if you're going full sturdy.

Fury + Impregnable is great actually. I run 7-well fitted Impreg+Truth Heavy and can roll as much any medium armor build, while way more defense and sustain that medium armor can provide.

Mostly I was pointing out that fury relies on taking critical damage, while ijmpreg prevents critical damage, so the two are counter intuitive if your crit resistance is at or above 3300, which is easy to pass with multiple impen or moderate investment in Resistant CP.

What? I think you misunderstand how impen works. It doesn't prevent you from being crit, it simply lessens the extra damage. Even if you somehow obtain more crit resist than your opponent has crit damage, you will still recieve a crit, it just doesn't do more damage. Doesn't prevent Fury from proccing.

At least that's what I know. Same for shields atm. 100% crit resist but can still recieve a crit, just without extra damage.

No I understand.

3300 mitigates 50% crit damage modifier, which is the base crit modifier, so without other buffs to crit modifier (i.e. any non-nightblade or templar in no-cp or who doesn't invest in precise strikes or elfborn) will be unable to crit on you.if you have over 3300 crit resistance.

This is why beyond 3300 yields diminishing returns, but until you hit 3300, as much crit resist as possible is best.

Amdar_Godkiller

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

This setup would not be very strong 1v1. In general I agree that heavy armor has too many good damage sets, as well. Both heavy and light armor do, fwiw, while there are no medium armor sets that come close to adding 600 weapon damage. That being said, the mitigation provided by heavy armor isn't that much in and of itself. Without other resistance buffs, this setup would have less than 30% resistance. Heavy armor only gets you an additional 10% or so over medium and only 13% or so more than light armor.


Also, changes to shuffle are a nerf for one, but secondly , you are complaining about heavy armor which doesn't even have access to shuffle, so it seems like you don't quite understand some of the mechanics of pvp.

Attacking heavy armor builds isn't really a challenge compared to fighting a shielded opponent.

1. Use Bleeds
2. Defile
3. CC and then swap between an Immobilizing skill and a channeled skill like flurry repeatedly until their immunity wears off to drain stamina
4. Onslaught


FWIW, running fury with impregnable seems somewhat counter productive, unless if you're going full sturdy.

Fury + Impregnable is great actually. I run 7-well fitted Impreg+Truth Heavy and can roll as much any medium armor build, while way more defense and sustain that medium armor can provide.

Mostly I was pointing out that fury relies on taking critical damage, while ijmpreg prevents critical damage, so the two are counter intuitive if your crit resistance is at or above 3300, which is easy to pass with multiple impen or moderate investment in Resistant CP.

What? I think you misunderstand how impen works. It doesn't prevent you from being crit, it simply lessens the extra damage. Even if you somehow obtain more crit resist than your opponent has crit damage, you will still recieve a crit, it just doesn't do more damage. Doesn't prevent Fury from proccing.

At least that's what I know. Same for shields atm. 100% crit resist but can still recieve a crit, just without extra damage.

You might be right about it still proccing fury, as I haven't tested, but it seems like it shouldn't. Wouldn't be the first time the game mechanics and logic parted ways though.

casparian

It's important to be clear about why those builds are so strong. The main reasons:

• It's possible to run Master's DW (which is very strong), two 5-piece sets, and a monster set, meaning you sacrifice nothing (from a gear perspective) in order to buff your bleeds. Master's DW, being as strong as they are, need to come with a significant opportunity cost. They don't.
• Forward Momentum is one of the two or three best defensive skills in the game (especially when stacked with Swift) and heavy armor builds can run it most effectively. Heavy armor should not be the most mobile spec in the game.
• Running heavy armor doesn't mean you have to give up the best damage sets in the game. On the contrary, the best damage sets in the game are heavy armor sets.
• Stamina builds can buff their defense and offense simultaneously by stacking weapon damage.

Of these, I think 4 is fine, and 3 is probably not going to change. What could we do to fix the situation? The ZOS approach is to nerf everything I just said was powerful, but I think most of us can agree that would be disappointing and misguided. Both heavy armor and bleeds need some creative rebalancing, so that they can remain strong where they're supposed to be strong. (Yes, bleeds need to remain strong. They're a necessary counter to excessively tanky builds.) Some suggestions:

• Nerf healing done while wearing 5 pieces of heavy armor (not healing received).
• Nerf all damage in the DW, S&B, and 2H skill lines, and add a medium armor passive that buffs damage with weapon skills by an equivalent amount.
• Add a speed debuff to either Resolve or Rapid Mending, so that heavy armor builds can't get their best passives without also being slowed. (Not sure about this one -- could have a negative PVE impact.)

The last thing I'll add is that nerfing heavy armor bleed builds will nerf the last genuinely strong solo spec in the game, which will be a sad day. I think whatever nerf to heavy armor bleed builds ZOS eventually implements needs to come together with a larger readjustment in favor of skill, organization, and intelligent teamwork against mindless grouping and low-skill mobs (including a global nerf to proc damage and adding a light attack debuff to Battle Spirit). Otherwise getting rid of heavy armor's dominance will be an overall nerf to solo/small-scale players, which is the last thing this game needs.

Minno

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

This setup would not be very strong 1v1. In general I agree that heavy armor has too many good damage sets, as well. Both heavy and light armor do, fwiw, while there are no medium armor sets that come close to adding 600 weapon damage. That being said, the mitigation provided by heavy armor isn't that much in and of itself. Without other resistance buffs, this setup would have less than 30% resistance. Heavy armor only gets you an additional 10% or so over medium and only 13% or so more than light armor.


Also, changes to shuffle are a nerf for one, but secondly , you are complaining about heavy armor which doesn't even have access to shuffle, so it seems like you don't quite understand some of the mechanics of pvp.

Attacking heavy armor builds isn't really a challenge compared to fighting a shielded opponent.

1. Use Bleeds
2. Defile
3. CC and then swap between an Immobilizing skill and a channeled skill like flurry repeatedly until their immunity wears off to drain stamina
4. Onslaught


FWIW, running fury with impregnable seems somewhat counter productive, unless if you're going full sturdy.

Fury + Impregnable is great actually. I run 7-well fitted Impreg+Truth Heavy and can roll as much any medium armor build, while way more defense and sustain that medium armor can provide.

Mostly I was pointing out that fury relies on taking critical damage, while ijmpreg prevents critical damage, so the two are counter intuitive if your crit resistance is at or above 3300, which is easy to pass with multiple impen or moderate investment in Resistant CP.

What? I think you misunderstand how impen works. It doesn't prevent you from being crit, it simply lessens the extra damage. Even if you somehow obtain more crit resist than your opponent has crit damage, you will still recieve a crit, it just doesn't do more damage. Doesn't prevent Fury from proccing.

At least that's what I know. Same for shields atm. 100% crit resist but can still recieve a crit, just without extra damage.

You might be right about it still proccing fury, as I haven't tested, but it seems like it shouldn't. Wouldn't be the first time the game mechanics and logic parted ways though.

It's the same system. Everyone gets to crit and they crit at 50% base crit dmg. Impen only reduces the crit dmg not the crit chance.

Therefore Fury and Impreg/impen work well together.

Juhasow

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

This setup would not be very strong 1v1. In general I agree that heavy armor has too many good damage sets, as well. Both heavy and light armor do, fwiw, while there are no medium armor sets that come close to adding 600 weapon damage. That being said, the mitigation provided by heavy armor isn't that much in and of itself. Without other resistance buffs, this setup would have less than 30% resistance. Heavy armor only gets you an additional 10% or so over medium and only 13% or so more than light armor.


Also, changes to shuffle are a nerf for one, but secondly , you are complaining about heavy armor which doesn't even have access to shuffle, so it seems like you don't quite understand some of the mechanics of pvp.

Attacking heavy armor builds isn't really a challenge compared to fighting a shielded opponent.

1. Use Bleeds
2. Defile
3. CC and then swap between an Immobilizing skill and a channeled skill like flurry repeatedly until their immunity wears off to drain stamina
4. Onslaught


FWIW, running fury with impregnable seems somewhat counter productive, unless if you're going full sturdy.

Fury + Impregnable is great actually. I run 7-well fitted Impreg+Truth Heavy and can roll as much any medium armor build, while way more defense and sustain that medium armor can provide.

Mostly I was pointing out that fury relies on taking critical damage, while ijmpreg prevents critical damage, so the two are counter intuitive if your crit resistance is at or above 3300, which is easy to pass with multiple impen or moderate investment in Resistant CP.

What? I think you misunderstand how impen works. It doesn't prevent you from being crit, it simply lessens the extra damage. Even if you somehow obtain more crit resist than your opponent has crit damage, you will still recieve a crit, it just doesn't do more damage. Doesn't prevent Fury from proccing.

At least that's what I know. Same for shields atm. 100% crit resist but can still recieve a crit, just without extra damage.

You might be right about it still proccing fury, as I haven't tested, but it seems like it shouldn't. Wouldn't be the first time the game mechanics and logic parted ways though.

If You have higher crit resistance then someones crit modifier that person will still deal critical dmg to You but critical modifier will be 0.

Waffennacht

Juhasow wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

This setup would not be very strong 1v1. In general I agree that heavy armor has too many good damage sets, as well. Both heavy and light armor do, fwiw, while there are no medium armor sets that come close to adding 600 weapon damage. That being said, the mitigation provided by heavy armor isn't that much in and of itself. Without other resistance buffs, this setup would have less than 30% resistance. Heavy armor only gets you an additional 10% or so over medium and only 13% or so more than light armor.


Also, changes to shuffle are a nerf for one, but secondly , you are complaining about heavy armor which doesn't even have access to shuffle, so it seems like you don't quite understand some of the mechanics of pvp.

Attacking heavy armor builds isn't really a challenge compared to fighting a shielded opponent.

1. Use Bleeds
2. Defile
3. CC and then swap between an Immobilizing skill and a channeled skill like flurry repeatedly until their immunity wears off to drain stamina
4. Onslaught


FWIW, running fury with impregnable seems somewhat counter productive, unless if you're going full sturdy.

Fury + Impregnable is great actually. I run 7-well fitted Impreg+Truth Heavy and can roll as much any medium armor build, while way more defense and sustain that medium armor can provide.

Mostly I was pointing out that fury relies on taking critical damage, while ijmpreg prevents critical damage, so the two are counter intuitive if your crit resistance is at or above 3300, which is easy to pass with multiple impen or moderate investment in Resistant CP.

What? I think you misunderstand how impen works. It doesn't prevent you from being crit, it simply lessens the extra damage. Even if you somehow obtain more crit resist than your opponent has crit damage, you will still recieve a crit, it just doesn't do more damage. Doesn't prevent Fury from proccing.

At least that's what I know. Same for shields atm. 100% crit resist but can still recieve a crit, just without extra damage.

You might be right about it still proccing fury, as I haven't tested, but it seems like it shouldn't. Wouldn't be the first time the game mechanics and logic parted ways though.

If You have higher crit resistance then someones crit modifier that person will still deal critical dmg to You but critical modifier will be 0.

Correct - and it's important for things like critical surge

Juhasow

Waffennacht wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

This setup would not be very strong 1v1. In general I agree that heavy armor has too many good damage sets, as well. Both heavy and light armor do, fwiw, while there are no medium armor sets that come close to adding 600 weapon damage. That being said, the mitigation provided by heavy armor isn't that much in and of itself. Without other resistance buffs, this setup would have less than 30% resistance. Heavy armor only gets you an additional 10% or so over medium and only 13% or so more than light armor.


Also, changes to shuffle are a nerf for one, but secondly , you are complaining about heavy armor which doesn't even have access to shuffle, so it seems like you don't quite understand some of the mechanics of pvp.

Attacking heavy armor builds isn't really a challenge compared to fighting a shielded opponent.

1. Use Bleeds
2. Defile
3. CC and then swap between an Immobilizing skill and a channeled skill like flurry repeatedly until their immunity wears off to drain stamina
4. Onslaught


FWIW, running fury with impregnable seems somewhat counter productive, unless if you're going full sturdy.

Fury + Impregnable is great actually. I run 7-well fitted Impreg+Truth Heavy and can roll as much any medium armor build, while way more defense and sustain that medium armor can provide.

Mostly I was pointing out that fury relies on taking critical damage, while ijmpreg prevents critical damage, so the two are counter intuitive if your crit resistance is at or above 3300, which is easy to pass with multiple impen or moderate investment in Resistant CP.

What? I think you misunderstand how impen works. It doesn't prevent you from being crit, it simply lessens the extra damage. Even if you somehow obtain more crit resist than your opponent has crit damage, you will still recieve a crit, it just doesn't do more damage. Doesn't prevent Fury from proccing.

At least that's what I know. Same for shields atm. 100% crit resist but can still recieve a crit, just without extra damage.

You might be right about it still proccing fury, as I haven't tested, but it seems like it shouldn't. Wouldn't be the first time the game mechanics and logic parted ways though.

If You have higher crit resistance then someones crit modifier that person will still deal critical dmg to You but critical modifier will be 0.

Correct - and it's important for things like critical surge

Or in this case for Fury+Impregnable sets combo which will still work even if someone would sit at 6k crit resist.

Juhasow

Peoblem is that master dual wield is one of the strongest proc sets in the game since it have 100% penetration and it can crit because 1,5k dmg is added to the ability dmg not counted as separate proc. Second issue is troll king which basicly works like healing proc set with the difference it can be multiplied by many easy ways like pots , passives etc so it's basicly like proc set that heals for 2-3k every 2 seconds for 10 seconds which basicly makes it second earthgore but without cooldown. Passive defense and passive ofense just from two 2 piece sets so there is plenty of room left for more.

Both master dual wields and troll king should be looked at especially when it comes to their usage on stamblade which can make the best use of them to the point 5 years old kids can be deadly effective on it especially in non CP enviroment.

Amdar_Godkiller

Minno wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

This setup would not be very strong 1v1. In general I agree that heavy armor has too many good damage sets, as well. Both heavy and light armor do, fwiw, while there are no medium armor sets that come close to adding 600 weapon damage. That being said, the mitigation provided by heavy armor isn't that much in and of itself. Without other resistance buffs, this setup would have less than 30% resistance. Heavy armor only gets you an additional 10% or so over medium and only 13% or so more than light armor.


Also, changes to shuffle are a nerf for one, but secondly , you are complaining about heavy armor which doesn't even have access to shuffle, so it seems like you don't quite understand some of the mechanics of pvp.

Attacking heavy armor builds isn't really a challenge compared to fighting a shielded opponent.

1. Use Bleeds
2. Defile
3. CC and then swap between an Immobilizing skill and a channeled skill like flurry repeatedly until their immunity wears off to drain stamina
4. Onslaught


FWIW, running fury with impregnable seems somewhat counter productive, unless if you're going full sturdy.

Fury + Impregnable is great actually. I run 7-well fitted Impreg+Truth Heavy and can roll as much any medium armor build, while way more defense and sustain that medium armor can provide.

Mostly I was pointing out that fury relies on taking critical damage, while ijmpreg prevents critical damage, so the two are counter intuitive if your crit resistance is at or above 3300, which is easy to pass with multiple impen or moderate investment in Resistant CP.

What? I think you misunderstand how impen works. It doesn't prevent you from being crit, it simply lessens the extra damage. Even if you somehow obtain more crit resist than your opponent has crit damage, you will still recieve a crit, it just doesn't do more damage. Doesn't prevent Fury from proccing.

At least that's what I know. Same for shields atm. 100% crit resist but can still recieve a crit, just without extra damage.

You might be right about it still proccing fury, as I haven't tested, but it seems like it shouldn't. Wouldn't be the first time the game mechanics and logic parted ways though.

It's the same system. Everyone gets to crit and they crit at 50% base crit dmg. Impen only reduces the crit dmg not the crit chance.

Therefore Fury and Impreg/impen work well together.

I'd argue that a crit that doesn't actually do additional damage, isn't really crit, but I get what you are saying and that the game treats them as such.

WaltherCarraway

Grab an ice staff

Juhasow

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

This setup would not be very strong 1v1. In general I agree that heavy armor has too many good damage sets, as well. Both heavy and light armor do, fwiw, while there are no medium armor sets that come close to adding 600 weapon damage. That being said, the mitigation provided by heavy armor isn't that much in and of itself. Without other resistance buffs, this setup would have less than 30% resistance. Heavy armor only gets you an additional 10% or so over medium and only 13% or so more than light armor.


Also, changes to shuffle are a nerf for one, but secondly , you are complaining about heavy armor which doesn't even have access to shuffle, so it seems like you don't quite understand some of the mechanics of pvp.

Attacking heavy armor builds isn't really a challenge compared to fighting a shielded opponent.

1. Use Bleeds
2. Defile
3. CC and then swap between an Immobilizing skill and a channeled skill like flurry repeatedly until their immunity wears off to drain stamina
4. Onslaught


FWIW, running fury with impregnable seems somewhat counter productive, unless if you're going full sturdy.

Fury + Impregnable is great actually. I run 7-well fitted Impreg+Truth Heavy and can roll as much any medium armor build, while way more defense and sustain that medium armor can provide.

Mostly I was pointing out that fury relies on taking critical damage, while ijmpreg prevents critical damage, so the two are counter intuitive if your crit resistance is at or above 3300, which is easy to pass with multiple impen or moderate investment in Resistant CP.

What? I think you misunderstand how impen works. It doesn't prevent you from being crit, it simply lessens the extra damage. Even if you somehow obtain more crit resist than your opponent has crit damage, you will still recieve a crit, it just doesn't do more damage. Doesn't prevent Fury from proccing.

At least that's what I know. Same for shields atm. 100% crit resist but can still recieve a crit, just without extra damage.

You might be right about it still proccing fury, as I haven't tested, but it seems like it shouldn't. Wouldn't be the first time the game mechanics and logic parted ways though.

It's the same system. Everyone gets to crit and they crit at 50% base crit dmg. Impen only reduces the crit dmg not the crit chance.

Therefore Fury and Impreg/impen work well together.

I'd argue that a crit that doesn't actually do additional damage, isn't really crit, but I get what you are saying and that the game treats them as such.

Having a chance to get nothing is still having a chance.

Xsorus

Fury/impregnable/troll Kings and masters is not a good setup.

Every time you weapon swap you drop either impregnable or fury.

killahsin

is this a post about shield stacking mages?

moosegod

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

moosegod wrote: »

You will never find a medium armour set that adds 600 weapon damage like a heavy set because medium armour has 12% extra weapon damage (15% in the next patch) so 600 would add up to too much, that's why it's around 400 for medium sets.

The problem with that logic is it negates the benefits of medium armor. What good is 15% more weapon damage if every set that qualifies provides 33% less raw weapon damage than it would in other weights.

Well, ravager can be used on jewellery so it's still open to a medium build... I think we have been ignoring that fact in this discussion. A heavy set isn't just off limits to a medium build because of the armour weight, there are ways to work around it. With transmutation, the jewellery becomes viable.

Arthg

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

This setup would not be very strong 1v1. In general I agree that heavy armor has too many good damage sets, as well. Both heavy and light armor do, fwiw, while there are no medium armor sets that come close to adding 600 weapon damage. That being said, the mitigation provided by heavy armor isn't that much in and of itself. Without other resistance buffs, this setup would have less than 30% resistance. Heavy armor only gets you an additional 10% or so over medium and only 13% or so more than light armor.


Also, changes to shuffle are a nerf for one, but secondly , you are complaining about heavy armor which doesn't even have access to shuffle, so it seems like you don't quite understand some of the mechanics of pvp.

Attacking heavy armor builds isn't really a challenge compared to fighting a shielded opponent.

1. Use Bleeds
2. Defile
3. CC and then swap between an Immobilizing skill and a channeled skill like flurry repeatedly until their immunity wears off to drain stamina
4. Onslaught


FWIW, running fury with impregnable seems somewhat counter productive, unless if you're going full sturdy.

Fury + Impregnable is great actually. I run 7-well fitted Impreg+Truth Heavy and can roll as much any medium armor build, while way more defense and sustain that medium armor can provide.

Mostly I was pointing out that fury relies on taking critical damage, while ijmpreg prevents critical damage, so the two are counter intuitive if your crit resistance is at or above 3300, which is easy to pass with multiple impen or moderate investment in Resistant CP.

Impregnable gives critical resistance, which reduces damage dealt by critical hits.
Critical resistance has no cap, so on the contrary it makes perfect sense to run Impreg with Fury, as it makes you more likely to survive crit damage and proc Fury multiple times to full buff.

Chilly-McFreeze

moosegod wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

moosegod wrote: »

You will never find a medium armour set that adds 600 weapon damage like a heavy set because medium armour has 12% extra weapon damage (15% in the next patch) so 600 would add up to too much, that's why it's around 400 for medium sets.

The problem with that logic is it negates the benefits of medium armor. What good is 15% more weapon damage if every set that qualifies provides 33% less raw weapon damage than it would in other weights.

Well, ravager can be used on jewellery so it's still open to a medium build... I think we have been ignoring that fact in this discussion. A heavy set isn't just off limits to a medium build because of the armour weight, there are ways to work around it. With transmutation, the jewellery becomes viable.

Right, but sets like 7th legion and Fury depend on being hit, while your main method of survival in medium is to avoid getting hit in the first place. So yes, it's possible to run impreg & fury on 5+medium, but it makes more sense to just go heavy on these sets. While senche's bite is a better show of how a medium set should proc.