End game community understanding and you

Wifeaggro13

Before we chastise the elites and complain about difficulty let's understand the dynamics. I think were the problem arises is the CP and gear issue. with enough CP and proper gear you can by pass just about all the role requirements for most of the VR dungeons and go 4 dps with self heals or 3 dps and a heal.you cnat really blame the population that has done these dungeons hundreds of times for wanting some efficiency in there activities. it did not used to be this way before the cP system was increased and VR system had a far far more defined group dynamic. At the end of the day its the CP system and ZOS insistence on hiding their progression behind gear traits. they say its a linear system but its not its hidden from view and its based off RNG. all they did was make their job easy by not having level increases and new abilities added to the classes or trees to the CP system. all they have to do is add a new Meta set and let people grind for perfect traits. its a cheap lazy way of managing your MMO.

What has happened is that vets that stuck around long enough at this point have had an mouth full of churn populations coming and going they no longer are willing to teach another round of people the content ,animation canceling and builds. the problem is two fold at its design level.


1) if its old dungeons they don't want to spend time on it when they can just stack and burn everything , that is ZOS fault truthfully in their game design. too much focus on DPS and not enough on actual tanking, utlity ,CC, and healing mechanics. All trash pulls can be stacked and burned and for the most part most bosses can be burned with very little attention to healing or tanking with enough DPS on high CP players. im not stating that this is the case with new trials or dungeons mind you.

2) Tam one did nothing to prepare this churn population for VR content at all . they let them light attack their way through all the lvls and CP with crafted gear then through them in VMA for a beating of monumental proportions, and the dungeon finder for a lesson in frustration. then they come here and vehemently complain the game is too hard and quit. this cycle repeats itself since mid 2015. Guilds come and go end game VR player become reclusive and nasty. Mind you there is a population of Elitists that have not been playing the game for more then a year that are just plain pro and they are even more nasty then the later. each balance patch changes the meta PVP gets affected the hardest, they yell and scream as it has ruined their fun. the PVE player just plain quits as they no longer really wish to grind more traits on a new set. ZOS was better off just following a true vertical progression system for the end game. The churn player will scream no but they dont stick around anyway so way create this single player RPG with a MMO group option for its end game. the current design is a snake eating its tail just like the logo.

Tasear

I don't understand where you are going with this.

Sirvys

I think I understand what you're implying. That the change by ZoS to a non-linear progression allowed new players to breeze through what should have been difficult and challenging periods of learning. Then they hop into Vet content completely unaware of how to play their class and thus become frustrated at failing then potentially lose interest.

However, while you're blaming ZoS, or possibly the veteran community for not being tutors, I would place blame on the new players. If you expect to be able to tackle veteran content without taking the time to learn your class, develop skills, work on your rotation, or gear up, then you deserve to fail.

I realize not everyone is a seasoned MMO vet familiar with the concept of progression, but I mean come on. You really think in your first week with zero knowledge, gear, or expertise, you're capable of tacking a Vet dungeon at Lvl 43? If anything, ZoS should lock Vet to dungeons to CP 160 only, at least in matchmaking, but that's a different discussion.

I might be missing your point. But remember, all those veteran players either had to figure out it themselves, or use resources to learn it. There are plenty of guilds out there willing to coach and help new players. And it's still entirely possibly for new players to group together and figure it out together. Not to mention Google.

If a new player can't figure out how to get better and complete more difficult content, it's because they are stupid or lazy.

Tan9oSuccka

Tasear wrote: »

I don't understand where you are going with this.

Yeah, I’m not sure.

I think he’s trying to make a point on CP power creep that wasn’t seen the same in VR ranks.

But then gets into roles and kind of a convoluted rant about teaching mechanics?

Wifeaggro13

I guess it's a discussion Instead of a witch hunt Against the end game community .people like to complain and vilify so much about being exclusive and nasty. I brief post launch analysis of how it got that way and how Zos jas fostered it with their post launch design

Wifeaggro13

Sirvys wrote: »

I think I understand what you're implying. That the change by ZoS to a non-linear progression allowed new players to breeze through what should have been difficult and challenging periods of learning. Then they hop into Vet content completely unaware of how to play their class and thus become frustrated at failing then potentially lose interest.

However, while you're blaming ZoS, or possibly the veteran community for not being tutors, I would place blame on the new players. If you expect to be able to tackle veteran content without taking the time to learn your class, develop skills, work on your rotation, or gear up, then you deserve to fail.

I realize not everyone is a seasoned MMO vet familiar with the concept of progression, but I mean come on. You really think in your first week with zero knowledge, gear, or expertise, you're capable of tacking a Vet dungeon at Lvl 43? If anything, ZoS should lock Vet to dungeons to CP 160 only, at least in matchmaking, but that's a different discussion.

I might be missing your point. But remember, all those veteran players either had to figure out it themselves, or use resources to learn it. There are plenty of guilds out there willing to coach and help new players. And it's still entirely possibly for new players to group together and figure it out together. Not to mention Google.

If a new player can't figure out how to get better and complete more difficult content, it's because they are stupid or lazy.

Yes I'm sorry its convoluted I should have proofed better and edited

Wifeaggro13

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

I don't understand where you are going with this.

Yeah, I’m not sure.

I think he’s trying to make a point on CP power creep that wasn’t seen the same in VR ranks.

But then gets into roles and kind of a convoluted rant about teaching mechanics?

Yes I did screw the pooch I should have proofed this

srfrogg23

Yeah, um... people would have found a way to speed run it regardless of non-linear progression. Some people get an adrenaline rush out of figuring out those strategies in any game.

Ever seen a Dark Souls Level 1 Naked Speedrun video on YouTube? Trust me, CPs had nothing to do with the eventuality of the Speedrunner mindset in ESO.

Wifeaggro13

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Yeah, um... people would have found a way to speed run it regardless of non-linear progression. Some people get an adrenaline rush out of figuring out those strategies in any game.

Ever seen a Dark Souls Level 1 Naked Speedrun video on YouTube? Trust me, CPs had nothing to do with the eventuality of the Speedrunner mindset in ESO.

no early post development it was far harder with soft caps and VR system. that and your comparing apples to oranges on DS and ESO. The CP system has everything to do with the state of the game is in right now both PVP and PVE

zaria

Sirvys wrote: »

I think I understand what you're implying. That the change by ZoS to a non-linear progression allowed new players to breeze through what should have been difficult and challenging periods of learning. Then they hop into Vet content completely unaware of how to play their class and thus become frustrated at failing then potentially lose interest.

However, while you're blaming ZoS, or possibly the veteran community for not being tutors, I would place blame on the new players. If you expect to be able to tackle veteran content without taking the time to learn your class, develop skills, work on your rotation, or gear up, then you deserve to fail.

I realize not everyone is a seasoned MMO vet familiar with the concept of progression, but I mean come on. You really think in your first week with zero knowledge, gear, or expertise, you're capable of tacking a Vet dungeon at Lvl 43? If anything, ZoS should lock Vet to dungeons to CP 160 only, at least in matchmaking, but that's a different discussion.

I might be missing your point. But remember, all those veteran players either had to figure out it themselves, or use resources to learn it. There are plenty of guilds out there willing to coach and help new players. And it's still entirely possibly for new players to group together and figure it out together. Not to mention Google.

If a new player can't figure out how to get better and complete more difficult content, it's because they are stupid or lazy.

This, now add that you have lots of high cp players in normal dungeons, they are doing random normal for cp, doing quests on alts or farm gear. Lots do the 5 key run, the two non dlc on HM and the dlc on normal as HM is not realistic in pug.
This trivialize the content. Unless unlucky. Normals is not as trivial if you have no cp, not much knowledge of the game and no master crafter to gear you.

More fun if you get into an vet dungeon with an fake tank and an fake healer. Yes you can do 4 DD runs but this is not pug stuff. Tank and healer kind of supplement each other and healer can keep an fake tank alive and an good tank reduce the damage the group take a lot. But as an healer you feel an fake tank even in an normal and this is some with inner light who blocks.

Worse you have the DD, BC2 Imril is an soft dps check, you have to kill adds faster than they spawn, She was hard at launch because AoE was weaker then. Nowday its not much of an issue.
However its possible to fail on normal, did random normals to my push to max cp, warden healer so low dps compared to other classes, did 80% of dps as the only who used aoe.

srfrogg23

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Yeah, um... people would have found a way to speed run it regardless of non-linear progression. Some people get an adrenaline rush out of figuring out those strategies in any game.

Ever seen a Dark Souls Level 1 Naked Speedrun video on YouTube? Trust me, CPs had nothing to do with the eventuality of the Speedrunner mindset in ESO.

no early post development it was far harder with soft caps and VR system. that and your comparing apples to oranges on DS and ESO. The CP system has everything to do with the state of the game is in right now both PVP and PVE

That wasnt a comparison. The point was that people enjoy finding ways to blitz through content regardless of the game or how difficult it supposedly is.

It's the mindset that some people have, not the CPs or the gear, that results in people wanting to just sprint through as fast as possible. And, the more challenging the game, the harder they try to push those boundaries.