Please add a third category/opt out for DLC dungeons

Jeremy

It seems many players who do random dungeons simply bail if they get a DLC dungeon. It's been an issue for awhile. But today it became tedious.

I queued up for Veteran Bloodroot Forge today. The tank - upon entering - was immediately disturbed when he saw the dungeon because he was on his "______ Templar tank". One of the two damage dealers simply left right at the start. The other DPS stuck around as three more damage dealers joined then bailed. I should point out all of this taking place before we had even fought a single enemy. It was merely the realization of the dungeon itself that was having this intimidating effect on the rest of the group. The remaining damage dealer said essentially forget this and then bailed also - leaving just me and the tank. The tank - worried it was his "______ Templar Tank" who was causing this effect - then swapped to his Dragon Knight Tank. But that wasn't the issue. We continued to have to wait as several more damage dealers joined then fled the group.

Finally... and after some time... we managed to get a pair of damage dealers who did not flee the scene upon recognition of the dungeon. It probably took us more time to simply get a group of players together willing to try the dungeon then it did for us to actually complete it. And if it had not been for the fact the tank was such a good sport the run would have likely never got past the opening scene.

These situations are not uncommon to me. In fact they are fairly typical every time I queue up for a DLC dungeon. Yesterday I had a tank who joined - saw Bloodroot forge - then said, and I quote "I don't know why people pug this dungeon" then left the group. I suppose it never crossed his mind that he was pugging the dungeon. I"m sure he randomed of course, but still...

So please ZoS - either add a separate category for random DLC dungeons or give players some additional option to opt out of them. Something. Because this problem is becoming tiresome.

Sparr0w

Nah I like the mystery Pugged this on NB tank, healer, stam & mag DD before. Some of the best runs I've had have been with PUGs.

Jeremy

Sparr0w wrote: »

Nah I like the mystery Pugged this on NB tank, healer, stam & mag DD before. Some of the best runs I've had have been with PUGs.

If they gave players an option to opt out of DLC dungeons when they did their random it would not prevent you from enjoying the mystery. You could just choose not to take advantage of that option.

So I don't understand your concern.

All this suggestion would do is make it so only players who are actually interested in doing random DLC dungeons will be doing random DLC dungeons, instead of them exiting at the beginning of the dungeon when they get one, which I"m sure can get tedious for everyone.

Jim_Pipp

You know that the group leader can just que for another random, and as you have a whole group you will immeadiately get to re-roll your dungeon?

I don't think we need a new opt-out system, we just need group members to communicate what they want with each other.

Jeremy

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

You know that the group leader can just que for another random, and as you have a whole group you will immeadiately get to re-roll your dungeon?

I don't think we need a new opt-out system, we just need group members to communicate what they want with each other.

I didn't want to do another random. I queued up for Bloodforge specifically because that is the one I wanted to do.

So we definitely need an opt out system. Your solution would have just made me exit the group. If I had wanted to do a random then I would have queued up for a random. So communication isn't the problem here. The problem here is a lot of the people who sign up for random dungeons aren't interested in doing DLC dungeons and just leave the group if they get one. And this can be frustrating and time consuming for players (like me) who are actually queuing up to do specifically DLC dungeons.

Jhalin

If you’re queueing into a random it will pair you with groups looking for specific dungeons, so it’s not really that random

Xoelarasizerer

+1 Yes Please.
DLC Vet is on a different difficulty scale from even Vet. You can't fool all of us otherwise, i've got the dreaded experience of playing with way more than enough randoms to know the clear consistent contrast in that scientific fact. Closest there is, is Vet City of Ash 2, but even that's easier than the Vet DLC dungeons with randoms.......

............ okay, Bloodroot Forge isn't that bad, but the rest find a way to pwn non-maxed CP randoms (Planar Inhibitor is kinda weird... like 7 out of 10 times successful at ending a session.)

Jeremy

Xoelarasizerer wrote: »

+1 Yes Please.
DLC Vet is on a different difficulty scale from even Vet. You can't fool all of us otherwise, i've got the dreaded experience of playing with way more than enough randoms to know the clear consistent contrast in that scientific fact.

Closest there is, is Vet City of Ash 2, but even that's easier than the Vet DLC dungeons with randoms.

True.

There are a lot of reasons why players should be able to differentiate between regular and DLC dungeons when doing randoms; and the vast differences in difficulty is a legitimate one.

I'm sure there are players out there who may be prepared for regular veteran dungeons but not DLC dungeons yet. They shouldn't be shut out of doing randoms all together or encouraged to simply abandon the group when they get one. This is especially the case since this is already an option for players who don't have access to DLC dungeons.

Broyston

Agree with OP, the very presence of DLC dungeons in the list means I do not do random PUG runs anymore. Not just because I may need to get good, but if you don't run them regularly, or are running for the first time, you don't remember/know the mechanics, and most PUG groups aren't happy teaching someone the ropes. I also have limited time to play and spending all my 2 hours of daily playing time in one dungeon (this has happened) isn't fun.

ayu_fever

i dont do the random dungeons even on normal just because of the chance i could get a DLC dungeon.
dlc cungeons are just entirely too difficult on normal and veteran mode.
they require more effort and dedication than i am willing to spend and are near impossible for PUGs.

i know zos has data to support the fact that all dlc dungeons have a much lower success rate, even on normal mode.

either have the option to opt out the dlc dungeons from random dungeons, OR do tons of super nerfs the dlc dungeons just for normal mode.

on normal mode i think every dlc dungeon should be nerfed in all ways necessary to bump them down several notches in difficulty so they would be on par with the base game dungeons.

on veteran, leave it as it is.
they are designed and sold to the players to be a challenge and thats really awesome, but leave the challenge to veteran mode. normal mode should be for cruising through.
they are designed with guildies in mind where you have a degree of trust and communication.
those things do not happen with PUGs.

Merlin13KAGL

If they gave players the option of opting out of DLC dungeons for the random reward, no one would bother randoming DLC dungeons.

You wouldn't have to worry about your group wiping, clearing, or bailing, because you'd never get one.

It's called Random Daily for a reason. If you can't manage it, Random normal, or don't random at all.

Jeremy

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

If they gave players the option of opting out of DLC dungeons for the random reward, no one would bother randoming DLC dungeons.

You wouldn't have to worry about your group wiping, clearing, or bailing, because you'd never get one.

It's called Random Daily for a reason. If you can't manage it, Random normal, or don't random at all.

There is already that option. It's called being a non subscriber who hasn't bought any of the dungeon DLC packs. They can already random without having to worry about getting a DLC dungeon. So I imagine many players who have an aversion for DLC dungeons actually feel punished in a sense for subscribing or purchasing DLC dungeons.

In any case: your solution which is to just not random at all is not realistic. Because that's not what's going to happen. What's going to happen instead is these people are going to random for the reward and then just abandon the group if they land into a DLC dungeon - because that's what they are doing already. And that ends up hurting everyone - even players like me who are actually wanting to do the DLC dungeons.

So something needs to be done and I feel the solution I put forth here is a reasonable one.

AcadianPaladin

I agree. I don't random at all because of the ESO+ penalty of DLC dungeons that I don't ever want to do. When I pug, I pug for one specific pledge. The change proposed by the OP is exactly what it would take for me to ever sign up for random.

iiYuki

Only queue random normal purely becuase I'm not running a veteran dlc dungeon for 40 minutes when all im getting is a transmute stone.
At least the pledges give me a key and the choice of running current dlc in normal and vanilla on veteran

Robo_Hobo

Yeah, I like the DLC dungeons but it would be best if this was the case.

It's amusing that the only way to do this as is, is to NOT buy the DLC, and let your ESO plus expire for a bit. Then when you do random dungeons you'll never be put into a DLC one, and thus a faster experience. When there is a perk you get for NOT buying something or being a member, that's pretty silly lol.

Raammzzaa

I pug random vet DLC dungeons all the time, and I enjoy it. That said, vBRF is one of my least favorites, and people frequently bail. Still most of the DLC dungeons I really enjoy.

phaneub17_ESO

I just stay off ESO+ when I want to do dungeons, I'll either sign up for a month to go bulk farming or wait for the Trial week to clear my bags then when it expires go back to doing random dungeons with the normal game. DLC dungeons are my incentive to stay off of ESO+ oddly enough.

Vicarra

I agree with this. I avoid DLC dungeons, and because I have no way to opt out, I don't run any dungeons at all unless a) it's on normal or b) I'm specifically invited for a specific dungeon where I know the people involved are not jerks.

I never do dungeons on vet through DF unless in a premade group. The few times I tried, I was very unlucky in getting DLC dungeons and they either take forever (with people constantly ragequitting or being kicked for not being prepared/light attack spamming/standing in red and dying over and over) or are over before they begin.

Even on normal, the length and difficulty of the DLC dungeons is such that it can be very difficult to complete them in any reasonable length of time. When you have this huge discrepancy between the length of time it takes to complete, say, fungal grotto I (~20 minutes on vet) and WGT or ICP (at least 40 minutes even on normal), but people have no way to avoid signing up for these much, much longer and more difficult/frustrating experiences, of course they will leave right at the start.

Tan9oSuccka

This is a good idea. I’m a long time plus subscriber, but dislike the DLCs.

The only one I don’t completely hate is VWGT.

The newest ones are so bad with pug unfriendly mechanics.

Reverb

I think the best solution is not to have a separate queue for DLC dungeons, but to have a "lesser" queue for non dlc. So the three queues would be:

- "Random Normal", full xp and rewards;
- "Random Vet", full xp and rewards,
- "Random Vet non DLC", 50% (maybe 75%?) of the xp and rewards the true-random queue gives

Merlin13KAGL

Jeremy wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

If they gave players the option of opting out of DLC dungeons for the random reward, no one would bother randoming DLC dungeons.

You wouldn't have to worry about your group wiping, clearing, or bailing, because you'd never get one.

It's called Random Daily for a reason. If you can't manage it, Random normal, or don't random at all.

There is already that option. It's called being a non subscriber who hasn't bought any of the dungeon DLC packs. They can already random without having to worry about getting a DLC dungeon. So I imagine many players who have an aversion for DLC dungeons actually feel punished in a sense for subscribing or purchasing DLC dungeons.

In any case: your solution which is to just not random at all is not realistic. Because that's not what's going to happen. What's going to happen instead is these people are going to random for the reward and then just abandon the group if they land into a DLC dungeon - because that's what they are doing already. And that ends up hurting everyone - even players like me who are actually wanting to do the DLC dungeons.

So something needs to be done and I feel the solution I put forth here is a reasonable one.

You have a 70% chance of landing in a non-DLC dungeon.

Until they put forth requirements (more than just 300cp and "I paid for it") for the DLC's, until they provide greater penalties for early desertion (more than just the cooldown). This will continue to be a problem.

Most people do the daily for the bonus XP, and many do it on norm to speed things up.

Unchecking those as options will effectively have the same effect as using specific dungeon finder, which has no bonus, and therefore generally doesn't see use unless someone needs gear or a specific achievement.

Perhaps cut the RDF Daily bonus in half or more if you opt out of the DLC's? Or, as a minimum, require a clear on norm or proven experience (easy enough for code to check in game) before allowing Vet as an option?

At least this way, there's something of an increased chance that the group that gets assembled will be semi-capable.

Option 2 would be to double the bonus if you enable DLC random but still meet the requirements?

Donny_Vito

Good idea. I typically like to run the Vet Daily random for the reward (normal just seems too easy and I do like a little bit of a challenge), but every time I queue up I always cross my fingers that I don't get one of the DLC's because no one likes to spend up to an hour or more on a dungeon, especially when the DPS has the potential to be shaky.

I considered myself respectful as a lower CP (sub 500) and I never queued up for random Vets, or for specific Vet DLCs, because I knew I would be hindering the group as a whole. Kinda frustrates me when I see 300 CPs trying to join a PUG and do Vet DLC dungeons. Have some respect for the group.

DMuehlhausen

Defeats the point of the word Random.

Just try the dungeon, stop being aholes to people that don't know the fights. Eventually everyone learns them or knows them well enough to get through them. This is the case in all MMOs

I remember when WoW launched Deadmines was to hard for some people. Lets not get started on the original level 60 dungeons like Scholomance, Strath (both sides) etc. Yes Blizzard changed the difficulty once Molten Core released to be doable, in a correct amount of time, in a 5 man, but people still took the time to let people learn what was going on.

Part of the issue though to is on ZoS. the seem to design fights around 1 shot mechanics rather than placement or general awareness. I haven't been able to get through either of new dungeons yet. There is the boss that a ground effect chases you and kills me every time. Even sometimes if I'm shielded in kills me. No mechanic should really be doing that much damage unless there is a way to counter it through getting to a spot, blocking it etc.

Emma_Overload

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

If they gave players the option of opting out of DLC dungeons for the random reward, no one would bother randoming DLC dungeons.

You wouldn't have to worry about your group wiping, clearing, or bailing, because you'd never get one.

It's called Random Daily for a reason. If you can't manage it, Random normal, or don't random at all.

LOL, then why even have them at all? If the content is so bad that most people would opt out of it, that's a SIGN.

ZOS needs to stop making DLC dungeons that people hate so much that they come on the forums begging for tools to avoid them.

NolaArch

I agree. I only queue for random normals. I don’t have a problem with that necessarily, but I’d like more of a challenge. Problem is, I do not want to get queued into a vet DLC with 2-3 pugs who have never set foot in the place and prefer to stand in the back spamming bow light attacks. That just isn’t my idea of a fun time and quick random. So, normal it is.

karekiz

I wouldn't mind a seperate que, but the rewards for DLC que would have to be VASTLY better than "Classic" que. Veteran random itself needs an upgrade as well.

If you que random DLC dungeon finder you get an extra motif in mail from that dungeon. Dungeons with no current motif get 5K in mail gold. Rewards for DLC que would be reworked to Gold -> Purple -> Blue. Gold is once per account. The amount of XP is change to a flat CP value: 5 CP on gold / 3 CP on purple / 2 CP on blue. A nice catch up mechanic and since players would learn mechanics and group play its better than players grinding to max.

This only effects Veteran difficulty. Normal rewards would be the same.

@Emma_Overload

Plenty of people do DLC dungeons in que. I do all the time. Its how I motif grind when my group isn't on. Yeah sometimes the runs aren't great, but a vast majority of them are fine. People beg for tools to evade them not because the dungeons themselves are bad, but a large amount of community does:

1. Fake tank - Recently had to deal with fake tank in mazz who and I quote "I have never done a DLC dungeon before. Tanking. WIth 16K hp. And didn't block well. Luckily the other 2 group members were as knowledgable about Mazz as well so we just carried him and flat out told him don't pull that again cause you got lucky. In bloodroot etc a player of your skill can't fake tank that period.

2. Players just don't know the dungeon. Been through multiple Fang Lair runs farming motifs where one person says "I don't know this dungeon." One even tried to opt out, but I just told him to see how far he gets, if its an issue we can work it out then. We proceeded to beat the dungeon.

3. Not enough time. Self explanatory. If you had an hour to play risking it on bloodroot or fang lair vs Fungal Grotto 1 <BTW they would easily bail on CoA2 as well> is just too risky.

Taleof2Cities

If you take out the DLC dungeons it is no longer “random”.

Time to put on your big boy pants and master new mechanics.

It’s really not that hard to read up online ahead of time ... so you know what to expect and tell your groupmates.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

That what it does to make dongeon a big part of the player cant complete

ghastley

The problem seems to be that the DLC dungeons need you to experience them at least once to learn the mechanics before you can succeed. So maybe we need a mechanism that prevents you from entering the DLC dungeons, until you've done them before?

Wait a minute...

JinMori

today i had a very unusual experience, a 1k cp dude, templar, dd, doing less than 10 k dps, running around with a resto staff, using radiant above 50 %, and sun shield.

I honestly cannot conceive how someone can be this bad at 1 k cp, it's mind boggling.

Of course he joined vet dlc dungeons, and he was completely useless, i wouldn't really care if he was doing solo stuff with that travesty of a build, but when you join a group, i would expect that you at least know the basics, and at least pull your weight, this is what pisses me off about this, i play how i want mentality, it's just an excuse for *** poor performance, and not helping the group in any meaningful way.

This game man, you see some pretty insane things.

LittlePinkDot

ayu_fever wrote: »

i dont do the random dungeons even on normal just because of the chance i could get a DLC dungeon.
dlc cungeons are just entirely too difficult on normal and veteran mode.
they require more effort and dedication than i am willing to spend and are near impossible for PUGs.

i know zos has data to support the fact that all dlc dungeons have a much lower success rate, even on normal mode.

either have the option to opt out the dlc dungeons from random dungeons, OR do tons of super nerfs the dlc dungeons just for normal mode.

on normal mode i think every dlc dungeon should be nerfed in all ways necessary to bump them down several notches in difficulty so they would be on par with the base game dungeons.

on veteran, leave it as it is.
they are designed and sold to the players to be a challenge and thats really awesome, but leave the challenge to veteran mode. normal mode should be for cruising through.
they are designed with guildies in mind where you have a degree of trust and communication.
those things do not happen with PUGs.

No I dont want them to leave Vet alone... Not unless they make monster helmets drop in normal DLCs. I would rather they lower the damage of bosses and monsters in vet dungeons.