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Vet DLC dungeons should have a 500 CP requirement.

MaxJrFTW
MaxJrFTW
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I'm tired of wasting my time because the developers allow ppl below this threshold to queue for vet DLC dungeons. This is not something that is the fault of the players, this is 100% on the developers. What business does a 200cp healer or tank, or dps for that matter have in Fang Lair? Oh that's right. None, but they can just go ahead and queue for it. Hello??? This is basic stuff, can't be hard to do.
"I don't know you, and I don't care to know you."
―Ulrich Leland, 3E 433
  • MaxJrFTW
    MaxJrFTW
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    ...

    Edited by MaxJrFTW on September 23, 2018 1:14AM
    "I don't know you, and I don't care to know you."
    ―Ulrich Leland, 3E 433
  • redspecter23
    redspecter23
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    Plenty of 500+ cp players still can't do that content. I agree completely that players that are not prepared for the content should not queue for it, but a cp requirement of 500 cp won't stop it from happening, it will just delay it.

    This has been designed, on purpose, for the top 2% of players, maybe less. However, it's available to all through the queue system, even in randoms. There is a breakdown in the system that goes much further than cp.
    Edited by redspecter23 on September 23, 2018 1:19AM
    Bal-Busters - PC/NA
  • karekiz
    karekiz
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    Well. 200CP shouldn't be in your que if its DLC. Its a min of 300.

    2nd - I just got out of Fang lair and had to vote kick a bow/sword & sheild tank with 850+ CP who didn't seem to realize block was a thing. Asked him to not tank on the bow and was about to type how to deal with shalks and he just ran in...and died to shalk. So voted him out.

    He sure did bring caltrops and endless hail though...

    To be fair it should be current min - 300

    However we need for vet DLC only a tank/healer/dps que test. You want to que as a roll for Vet DLC you need to:

    Tank - Handle multiple mobs - deal with one shotting Heavy Attacks - avoid AoEs - A mini bloodroot forge boss would essentially work.
    Healer - Heal multiple players - Deal with adds that may get on you - Avoid AoE's
    DPS - Min DPS check both AoE and Single target <doesn't need to be super high btw> - Avoid AoE's

    All would have AI party to simulate a group. For Tank/healer If your DPS die due to mobs being lose or heals not enough you fail. DPS simply has invul tank on single target boss and with adds you need to pull them near him so he can AoE root


    Otherwise if you want to enter the dungeon without passing the test work the same way as now. Premade group it.
    Edited by karekiz on September 23, 2018 2:33AM
  • MaxJrFTW
    MaxJrFTW
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    karekiz wrote: »
    Well. 200CP shouldn't be in your que if its DLC. Its a min of 300.

    2nd - I just got out of Fang lair and had to vote kick a bow/sword & sheild tank with 850+ CP who didn't seem to realize block was a thing. Asked him to not tank on the bow and was about to type how to deal with shalks and he just ran in...and died to shalk. So voted him out.

    He sure did bring caltrops and endless hail though...

    To be fair it should be current min - 300

    However we need for vet DLC only a tank/healer/dps que test. You want to que as a roll for Vet DLC you need to:

    Tank - Handle multiple mobs - deal with one shotting Heavy Attacks - avoid AoEs - A mini bloodroot forge boss would essentially work.
    Healer - Heal multiple players - Deal with adds that may get on you - Avoid AoE's
    DPS - Min DPS check both AoE and Single target <doesn't need to be super high btw> - Avoid AoE's

    All would have AI party to simulate a group. For Tank/healer If your DPS die due to mobs being lose or heals not enough you fail. DPS simply has invul tank on single target boss and with adds you need to pull them near him so he can AoE root


    Otherwise if you want to enter the dungeon without passing the test work the same way as now. Premade group it.

    I meant 300, you just can't edit it. One of them was 314, the other 372.
    "I don't know you, and I don't care to know you."
    ―Ulrich Leland, 3E 433
  • idk
    idk
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    For starters Zos made some great changes earlier this year that are very sound. They have worked well. As well as I think should be expected short of using a very heavy hand.

    I have seen CP160 players outdps CP capped players so an arbitrary 500 CP requirement really solves nothing. Also , half the vet dungeons really do not require high damage. It is often hard to discern if the instance is vet or normal.

    If it is so much of an issue then form your own group. Assuming we are talking about vet, if you are hitting up Fang Lair it seems like one is asking for a real dice roll to pug it regardless. Heck, I would not pug it on vet. Lack of communication alone is an issue. Just does not make sense.
    Really, idk
  • Drdeath20
    Drdeath20
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    I aggree that vet dlc dungeons require good damage dealers but tanks and healers really dont need to be that powerful, they just need to know the mechanics and try their best to play their role
  • TheNightflame
    TheNightflame
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    i literally got my spiderkith skin at 200cp and by 400cp had all dungeon skins/hats pre DB... cp is not an accurate guage at all. just make clearing all the vet 2 vanilla dungeons the requirement instead
  • profundidob16_ESO
    profundidob16_ESO
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    I suggested for 2 years on these forums that ZOS would implement a minimum cp300 instead of none at all for DLC dungeons because I kept getting fresh levelled 50chars that were clueless and had no cp points at all to put into the basic restistances and dps/healing boosts.

    They finally listened and implemented 300cp minimum. Now everyone has the points to invest in the basics and there are no more excuses left to claim it's "impossible". All it boils down to now is knowing your role and the dungeon mechanics.

    The second suggestion I've been advertising is a sort of tutorial academy like mini vma that tests each role specific in increasing difficulty which then opens up the third separate queue called "DLC vet random dungeons" for that specific role you qualified for. There ZOS hasn't listened yet and it's the reason of daily frustration :(

    The dungeon mechanics part I overcome by teaching daily pugs that are willing to learn and it requires alot of patience and energy from me. But every day I see that basic roles are simply not known and that means game over right from the start. You can only vote those players off, something I don't like to do but ZOS forces my hand by not dealing with that problem. If the other players don't get it I can only leave group :(
  • pluckpluck
    I completely disagree with that "500CP limit".

    The quality of the players isn't related to the CP. I played with impressive low CP levels, that just needed some tips to progress, while I also played with some 780+ (even over 1000CP) that don't know what to do or how to do more than 15k dps. CP300 limit is good, because as Prof says, you can get the "most needed" ressources from your CP trees.

    When I was CP300, I had the chance to find two DDs looking for a new tank, and that gave me a chance to support them in HL content. The path was hard, I am still learning a lot, but in the end.. And so we gave a chance to a CP300 healer too. That healer is really good. He's CP470 now, he still struggles with his CP when looking for trials, and you know what? I'm pretty sure he has achievements tons of 780+ still haven't. We are at that of "leave no bones unbroken", we already got "Mountain God". Achievements that need training, skill, concentration. Yes, our wonderful DDs deal over 90k/s together, but the damage is not all, in fact the last DLC dungeons are less a nuke race than a controlled DPS output to not be overwhelmed by mechanics depending of bosses life.

    I did a nSO as a DD three days ago. The tank around 500 thought his chain (DK) was a taunt, and hadn't the melee nor the range taunt. Teaching to a CP500 first trial tank how to play tank.. I'm sad for him none wanted to explain that to him 200cp before.

    So, no, don't ask for a CP500 minimum. You can ask for specific stuff, because yes, in HL, a tank that has no Ebon+PD won't work, a healer without at least SPC+WC won't work, you can ask for a minimum damage output (I can't imagine groups trying Zaan's HM with less than 30k/s in total), but stop considering low CP aren't skilled.
    "The net is a waste of time and that's exactly what's right about it. "
    -- W. Gibson
  • profundidob16_ESO
    profundidob16_ESO
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    people that are new to the game don't know the following little fact but I'll share it with everyone here right now: The first year after beta we players completed all veteran dungeons and trials without the existence of the cp system and in addition those dungeons were not nerfed like they are today...

  • WuffyCerulei
    WuffyCerulei
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    CP doesn't equal skill, so it probably wouldn't do much. I've met sub 500 people with more skill in their pinky toe than some fellow 1000+ people I've met.
    I will kick everyone's butt, even my own.

    PC NA
    CP 1100+
    Star-Sïnger - Khajiit Magicka Sorc - EP August Palatine - Flawless Conqueror
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    Sings-to-Starlight - Argonian Magicka Warden
  • FrancisCrawford
    FrancisCrawford
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    Any such gating proposal, IMO, should be based on previous dungeon achievements by the same character. E.g.:
    • No queuing for a DLC dungeon until you've completed 15 dungeons overall.
    • No queuing for a vet DLC dungeon until you've completed 20 dungeons overall.

  • sudaki_eso
    sudaki_eso
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    It wont change a lot. If i think about my toons who are max level but still have *** gear and a rotation that needs much more practice to perfom decently in vet dlc content i dont think the cp500 requirement would change a lot. Not that i would queue with any of my toons who arent ready for this kind of content but lots of people will. I am not even doing them on my main with randoms, only with guildies and if i pug them then only in normal - saves a lot of stress.
    PS4 EU
  • resdayn00
    resdayn00
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    The problem is that currently the only thing the game can measure here is CP, which is not representative of skill/experience. You see, I started doing actual PvE content in my mid 500s. I had no group, no long term buddies to play with and honestly I had no intention to do dungeons as I incorrectly thought it's the endgame. I was mostly doing quests, exploring the zones, improving my crafting skills and I focused on housing. My first DPS parse on a dummy was a mere 12k and I was over CP 500, with zero experience in PvE content. I could've headed into vet Falkreath Hold and people wouldn't have objected seeing my level, but I would've been kicked pretty soon because of my (lack of) performance.

    There are multiple methods that could be implemented to measure player experience. Of course direct solutions would be locking content behind achievements, requirement of a dps parse, but I propose an indirect solution:

    Develop a system that numerically represents player experience using multiple factors.

    Possible factors that the system could take into account:
    - Player level
    - Highest DPS parse (for damage dealers)
    - Completed achievements (specifically PvE)
    - Leaderboard scores

    Now of course there are lots of flaws here:
    - Tank and healer performance can't be measured
    - Achievements can be "cheated": carrying people through veteran trials, dungeons, easily circumvent this system
    - DPS parses can be made significally higher by having group buffs/debuffs

    Flaws aside, if all these factors had a numerical value associated with them, an algorithm could be developed that places them into an equation that in the end produces a number representing overall expected performance and experience. Could be either a higher number produced by simply stacking numbers, or something between 1-10 with 10 being the theoretical maximum.

    This number could be used two in two ways:

    1. locking content behind them
    2. using them simply as a warning (your blahblahblah is too low for this content, would you still like to continue?)

    The first use is obviously quite problematic since it effectively locks people out of DLCs. The second use mimics a non-battle leveled game where your level might be too low for a quest/zone that you can still freely explore.
    PC EU - Ebonheart Pact - Sotha Sil
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    Achievement points: 24k+

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  • qbit
    qbit
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    I generally dislike the mechanic heavy DLC dungeons. Always makes me a little anxious trying to a daily random normal. I have issues with these due to not knowing mechanics. No one wants to explain them and I surely can’t read about them while everyone rushes ahead. And I’m of the type that I don’t want to hold people back or waste their time in-game. I’m also waiting for CP 300 before I even queue for vet dungeons. But post like the OP’s give me worry about that. I’m a good DPS. I consider myself good for my level. It really sucks when I am stupidly attacking boss when I’m supposed to be attacking adds and then everyone curses me for it. As if I should know. :/
    PC-NA: @q.bit
  • qbit
    qbit
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    Like how is it obvious you’re supposed to interrupt the werewolf dude when he jumps on a guy? I realize NPCs are screaming mechanics at you but it’s hard to hear them. So much going on sometimes I end up doing a full rotation on a group member and looking and feeling like an idiot.
    PC-NA: @q.bit
  • OrphanHelgen
    OrphanHelgen
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    Although I do agree with you 100%, I have to say I met a tank that was cp 190 in a vet dlc dungeon via group tool.
    This tank was clearly from either NA or console. What I mean is, he clearly had played eso before, more than those 190 cp.
    He was a god. The speed he had, the mob stacking, the buffs, it was insane. Really on a pro level. Let me remind you, cp 190!

    Then I meet a cp780 player, who clearly either bought his account, or got his xp by picking flowers for 4 years. It's a player who don't know what a food buff is, where weapon swap button is, or how to even use wasd. It's on a level of bad I can't even immagine.

    So does cp matter? It doesn't, it really doesn't. BUT, it's more likely that a max cp player is more experienced than a cp 190 player, that's why I agree with you.
    Edited by OrphanHelgen on September 26, 2018 10:57PM
    PC, EU server, Ebonheart Pact


    Finally a reason not to play League of Legends
  • qbit
    qbit
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    resdayn00 wrote: »
    The problem is that currently the only thing the game can measure here is CP, which is not representative of skill/experience. You see, I started doing actual PvE content in my mid 500s. I had no group, no long term buddies to play with and honestly I had no intention to do dungeons as I incorrectly thought it's the endgame. I was mostly doing quests, exploring the zones, improving my crafting skills and I focused on housing. My first DPS parse on a dummy was a mere 12k and I was over CP 500, with zero experience in PvE content. I could've headed into vet Falkreath Hold and people wouldn't have objected seeing my level, but I would've been kicked pretty soon because of my (lack of) performance.

    There are multiple methods that could be implemented to measure player experience. Of course direct solutions would be locking content behind achievements, requirement of a dps parse, but I propose an indirect solution:

    Develop a system that numerically represents player experience using multiple factors.

    Possible factors that the system could take into account:
    - Player level
    - Highest DPS parse (for damage dealers)
    - Completed achievements (specifically PvE)
    - Leaderboard scores

    Now of course there are lots of flaws here:
    - Tank and healer performance can't be measured
    - Achievements can be "cheated": carrying people through veteran trials, dungeons, easily circumvent this system
    - DPS parses can be made significally higher by having group buffs/debuffs

    Flaws aside, if all these factors had a numerical value associated with them, an algorithm could be developed that places them into an equation that in the end produces a number representing overall expected performance and experience. Could be either a higher number produced by simply stacking numbers, or something between 1-10 with 10 being the theoretical maximum.

    This number could be used two in two ways:

    1. locking content behind them
    2. using them simply as a warning (your blahblahblah is too low for this content, would you still like to continue?)

    The first use is obviously quite problematic since it effectively locks people out of DLCs. The second use mimics a non-battle leveled game where your level might be too low for a quest/zone that you can still freely explore.

    This right here. I started doing group content well after CP 160. People assume I know mechanics. Get pissed when I ask for a simple explanation like “attack the orbs when they appear or they one shot you”. I don’t know. One time a spider goes up to ceiling and says “don’t move a muscle”. First time in game I encountered you get one shotted for moving. Yeah, she says it. Big deal. When do you normally take banter dialog in a boss fight literally? We wipe four times before I say “wait” and look up the damn mechanic.

    Guess I just need to git gud. Too bad it’s hard to fine a group that will allow you to do so.
    PC-NA: @q.bit
  • Tinus_92
    Tinus_92
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    My now 340CP alternative account got the vMOL skin while he still had 200CP. Did the backside running, so can't really consider that a carry either. Yes, you do less damage on CP200 then a CP780 account; but if your main easily hits 40-50k, a low CP account with a simular build will still reach about 30k. It's kind of a big difference but 30k is enough for non HM (dlc) trials. You'll require some DPS for harder PvE content, yes, but mechanical knowledge is even more important once you've passed some minimal requirements. This counts even more for the DLC dungeons as they're mostly mechanically heavy.

    The main point of this; CP helps in getting you better but it doesn't say anything about someone's real skill and knowledge on ESO, thus requirements on CP wouldn't fit either.
    Edited by Tinus_92 on September 27, 2018 9:12AM
    PC/EU - 810CP+ (Main; Magplar PvE dps)
    PvE: > vAA HM - vSO HM - vHRC HM - vHoF HM (121,529 pre-HotR) - vMoL HM (160,738 pre-morrowind) - vAS+1 - vCR +1
    Guilds: Eastern Dragons (PvP/PvE) - Ghost & Goblins (Endgame PvE, retired) - Late Night Dungeoneers (Endgame PvE) - Dragonia (Casual PvE, NL/BE) - Colovian Brothers (Endgame PvE, NL/BE)

    PC/NA - 400CP+
    PvE: > nAA, nSO, etc.
  • profundidob16_ESO
    profundidob16_ESO
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    qbit wrote: »
    Like how is it obvious you’re supposed to interrupt the werewolf dude when he jumps on a guy? I realize NPCs are screaming mechanics at you but it’s hard to hear them. So much going on sometimes I end up doing a full rotation on a group member and looking and feeling like an idiot.

    the first few times you run a dungeon that is new to you, turn on "subtitles" in the audio section. You will be amazed what a difference it makes...
  • profundidob16_ESO
    profundidob16_ESO
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    qbit wrote: »
    I generally dislike the mechanic heavy DLC dungeons. Always makes me a little anxious trying to a daily random normal. I have issues with these due to not knowing mechanics. No one wants to explain them and I surely can’t read about them while everyone rushes ahead. And I’m of the type that I don’t want to hold people back or waste their time in-game. I’m also waiting for CP 300 before I even queue for vet dungeons. But post like the OP’s give me worry about that. I’m a good DPS. I consider myself good for my level. It really sucks when I am stupidly attacking boss when I’m supposed to be attacking adds and then everyone curses me for it. As if I should know. :/


    1. Watch the "it's all about mechanics" videos (a project here from a good player trying to explain everything perfectly)

    2. find fellow players and a guild that loves doing dungeons on a daily basics in order to practise.

    3. After you have a succesfully run with people that already know what to do, run with random group finder or pugs to test your skills and further improve.
  • karekiz
    karekiz
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    qbit wrote: »
    Like how is it obvious you’re supposed to interrupt the werewolf dude when he jumps on a guy? I realize NPCs are screaming mechanics at you but it’s hard to hear them. So much going on sometimes I end up doing a full rotation on a group member and looking and feeling like an idiot.

    1. Player gets pounced -> Unable to get up -> Dies. There is your indicator.
    2. All interrupt able skills have a red "line aura". If you see it interrupt them. It doesn't matter what their doing, just bash them. It takes 2 seconds.

    That is very basic ESO mechanics. You should really be looking at the tank side where you have to drag them into a Red AoE <Clearly marked *BAD* for you> or it enrages. That I would say is probably a little less clear. While tremors are less clear they do add a warning on screen. Maybe they should expand on that a bit for all/most - Do or Die - mechanics

    *Edit: Yes to subtitles - Sometimes dialogue just outright tells you the mechanics.
    Edited by karekiz on September 27, 2018 2:02PM
  • MissBizz
    MissBizz
    Community Ambassador
    MaxJrFTW wrote: »
    karekiz wrote: »
    Well. 200CP shouldn't be in your que if its DLC. Its a min of 300.

    2nd - I just got out of Fang lair and had to vote kick a bow/sword & sheild tank with 850+ CP who didn't seem to realize block was a thing. Asked him to not tank on the bow and was about to type how to deal with shalks and he just ran in...and died to shalk. So voted him out.

    He sure did bring caltrops and endless hail though...

    To be fair it should be current min - 300

    However we need for vet DLC only a tank/healer/dps que test. You want to que as a roll for Vet DLC you need to:

    Tank - Handle multiple mobs - deal with one shotting Heavy Attacks - avoid AoEs - A mini bloodroot forge boss would essentially work.
    Healer - Heal multiple players - Deal with adds that may get on you - Avoid AoE's
    DPS - Min DPS check both AoE and Single target <doesn't need to be super high btw> - Avoid AoE's

    All would have AI party to simulate a group. For Tank/healer If your DPS die due to mobs being lose or heals not enough you fail. DPS simply has invul tank on single target boss and with adds you need to pull them near him so he can AoE root


    Otherwise if you want to enter the dungeon without passing the test work the same way as now. Premade group it.

    I meant 300, you just can't edit it. One of them was 314, the other 372.

    You can! The cog wheel to edit is beside your thread title instead of in the corner of the post box :)
    Lone Wolf Help
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  • sudaki_eso
    sudaki_eso
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    qbit wrote: »
    I generally dislike the mechanic heavy DLC dungeons. Always makes me a little anxious trying to a daily random normal. I have issues with these due to not knowing mechanics. No one wants to explain them and I surely can’t read about them while everyone rushes ahead. And I’m of the type that I don’t want to hold people back or waste their time in-game. I’m also waiting for CP 300 before I even queue for vet dungeons. But post like the OP’s give me worry about that. I’m a good DPS. I consider myself good for my level. It really sucks when I am stupidly attacking boss when I’m supposed to be attacking adds and then everyone curses me for it. As if I should know. :/


    1. Watch the "it's all about mechanics" videos (a project here from a good player trying to explain everything perfectly)

    Add the Link to them, makes it easier to find them :wink:
    All about mechanics:

    So far Xy got every dungeon vet hm covered except the dlc dungeons.
    For a quick introduction to vet hm dlc dungeons take a look at these videos:
    except for the wolfhunter dungeon you will find a video to every other dungeon which explains the most important mechanics.

    Not sure why it shows a single video and not the playlist but you will find the others video from there.
    Edited by sudaki_eso on September 27, 2018 2:14PM
    PS4 EU
  • profundidob16_ESO
    profundidob16_ESO
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    Thanks for the links ;)
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