My Final Thoughts on the Impending Shield Nerf, and ESO's Identity Crisis

Crafts_Many_Boxes

So, here's what I think it comes down to.

Per Rob Garett's post, the design intent with the shield changes are to make a meaningful choice between damage and survival. Okay, that's fine. I get that. I can even empathize with that, coming from MMOs where the line is much more clearly drawn between healing (shields) and dps like Wow and Rift.

The problem comes in when you look at high level PvE content in this game. There are tons of scenarios where DPS don't have access to proper healers, but are still expected to dps and perform at that high level, while taking huge amounts of damage. The most common example being thrown around right now is VCR+3, where any players doing the orbs / spears in the shadow realm take almost constant, heavy damage. Doing it without a dedicated healer for each dps is only possible because of shields, as I understand it. There's also VMA, which is a totally solo Raid where you are often taking your entire health bar in damage, and quite frequently, while being tasked with killing the big baddie quickly. Instant shields are the only reason most sorcs (and magicka users in general) can get through that content. Maybe everything is technically doable without instant shielding, but the skill level required is so high that it becomes achievable only by the top 1 or 2%. You're officially in Wildstar territory, and we know how well that turned out.

And then there's the matter of reactive vs pre-emptive combat. Part of this grand design intent by the developers is to make defensive measures pre-emptive instead of reactive. My first thought is: have you guys played your own game? The vast majority of ground aoe, attacks, spells, etc happen in the timeframe of under 1 second. Often times, there are no telegraphs ahead of time, especially in the arena of PvP. Basically, ESO is a reactive MMO. It's very fast paced, for better or for worse. Trying to input measures to make combat pre-emptive goes against the way encounters actually work.

So, we've reach a point where the developer's design intent is in direct opposition with the content the developers have actually created.

If these changes go through, the only logical recourse on Zenimax's end to properly address this core conflict is a massive balance pass on all high level content. Basically, content needs to function much more like traditional "holy trinity" MMOs. They need to eliminate all those scenarios where players are expected to perform multiple roles at once. They also need to slow PvE down significantly, pretty much across the board. There's a reason WoW would never implement VMA - they would have to give DPSers so much utility and self healing / shielding that they would lose their identity. That's always been the way ESO has operated - with blurred lines between the roles. If they want to make those lines less blurry and slow things down, they need to go back and fix all the content that supported the blurriness and the pacing.

sha-ext

I agree with what you are saying!
A nice summary of some of the main concerns i and most of my in-game friends are talking about a lot recently!

Tonturri

Well said. I really hope they go back on recent decisions - if I wanted to play WoW/SWTOR/etc, I would go play those. I enjoy ESO for it's flexibility.

AhPook_Is_Here

Or you could just go NB and have both. I guess the problem with that is some path and syphon morphs will need to be swapped around between trials and arenas.

Kanar

There are one shot mechanics in vMA but they are meant to teach you how to play mechanics. Something like power surge and a reasonable HP pool would be plenty sufficient for a magSorc to do it.

vCR+3 should be adjusted so more than just one spec can participate.

MartiniDaniels

one question how all other (non NB) squishy dps (stamina) survived in vCR+3 without shields

Crafts_Many_Boxes

Kanar wrote: »

vMA doesn't have a single one-shot mechanic. Something like power surge and a reasonable HP pool would be plenty sufficient for a magSorc to do it.

vCR+3 should be adjusted so more than just one spec can participate.

True, but many players (even outside of Sorcs) who run magicka toons rely on on that instant shield from ward or harness to stay alive. I certainly do, I won't pretend I'm good enough at solo-ing to get by without it.

The average player can't even complete VMA, but the average player who is able to complete it certainly makes ample use of instant shielding. Stamina is in the vast minority on the leaderboards, from what I understand, so it stands to reason their completion rates are just lower.

I think if these changes go through, VMA completion rates will drop drastically. Like, very drastically. I mean I'll try, but I don't think I'll be able to beat it anymore, and I consider myself pretty decent at the game. By no means "elite", but decent. That's why I'm saying that if the nerf happens, these things need to be looked at if they still wanna be accessible to any more than the top 1% or 2%.

Juju_beans

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

vMA doesn't have a single one-shot mechanic. Something like power surge and a reasonable HP pool would be plenty sufficient for a magSorc to do it.

vCR+3 should be adjusted so more than just one spec can participate.

True, but many players (even outside of Sorcs) who run magicka toons rely on on that instant shield from ward or harness to stay alive. I certainly do, I won't pretend I'm good enough at solo-ing to get by without it.

The average player can't even complete VMA, but the average player who is able to complete it certainly makes ample use of instant shielding. Stamina is in the vast minority on the leaderboards, from what I understand, so it stands to reason their completion rates are just lower.

I think if these changes go through, VMA completion rates will drop drastically. Like, very drastically. I mean I'll try, but I don't think I'll be able to beat it anymore, and I consider myself pretty decent at the game. By no means "elite", but decent. That's why I'm saying that if the nerf happens, these things need to be looked at if they still wanna be accessible to any more than the top 1% or 2%.

I think a lot of that has to do with everyone saying that vMA is easier with mag builds.

Jameliel

Well-stated! When changes like this are implemented by people who obviously don't play the game, who can blame many of us for thinking they are drinking or doing drugs on the job. The behavior of most z0$ employees is random and bizarre.

Iki

Kanar wrote: »

There are one shot mechanics in vMA but they are meant to teach you how to play mechanics. Something like power surge and a reasonable HP pool would be plenty sufficient for a magSorc to do it.

vCR+3 should be adjusted so more than just one spec can participate.

Yeah, after 100+ clears if one can pull rather high dps and know mechanics like own pockets, new-comers however would have to go there with destro-resto builds and use healing ward in oh sh*t moments while pulling low dps and have even more painful learning-curve. Or just reroll magblade for those learning-runs.. Power-creep is huge in this game and it`s easy for veteran-players to forget or ignore what kind of struggle there is for players who don`t have power and experience we have.

Kanar

StamSorc would be really easy in vMA but otherwise yeah, magicka is easier. Amongst the common mobs, the deadliest threats in there are ranged and hard to get to (standing in ice water, across the room , etc). For bosses, some are melee like stage 7 boss and you don't want to stay close to them or can't at certain times (dwemer spider).

Agenericname

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

vMA doesn't have a single one-shot mechanic. Something like power surge and a reasonable HP pool would be plenty sufficient for a magSorc to do it.

vCR+3 should be adjusted so more than just one spec can participate.

True, but many players (even outside of Sorcs) who run magicka toons rely on on that instant shield from ward or harness to stay alive. I certainly do, I won't pretend I'm good enough at solo-ing to get by without it.

The average player can't even complete VMA, but the average player who is able to complete it certainly makes ample use of instant shielding. Stamina is in the vast minority on the leaderboards, from what I understand, so it stands to reason their completion rates are just lower.

I think if these changes go through, VMA completion rates will drop drastically. Like, very drastically. I mean I'll try, but I don't think I'll be able to beat it anymore, and I consider myself pretty decent at the game. By no means "elite", but decent. That's why I'm saying that if the nerf happens, these things need to be looked at if they still wanna be accessible to any more than the top 1% or 2%.

I've spent some time on the PTS in vMA specifically over the last few days. I dont think that this is going to be the case. This was initially my concern and the reason I went to the PTS.

The cast time feels awkward, especially for ESO, theres no getting around that. Perhaps it would feel more natural if it were a loading screen. The strength of the shield balances it out pretty well though. In some ways it's a little bit more forgiving.
Obviously if you're caught without it, then it's less forgiving.

It's a net loss in DPS, which is what they were going for. Personally I'd prefer that the shield go active at the beginning of the cast instead of the end, that would achieve what they were going for, which is really nothing more than a DPS penalty for using a survival mechanism.

Whatever other problems may lie with the 1s cast time like vCR +3, PvP, taxing already low dps/low sustain builds even more, etc, I dont think that it will be a barrier to a vMA clear.

Funkopotamus

Its crap like this that makes me so very happy that Black Desert online xbox beta sign ups have started lol..

mongoLC

Just need to hit them in the pocket book unsubscribe, stop buying crowns. Want fluid combat its why I hate using Channeled Acceleration too! Screw cast times!

Vahrokh

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

one question how all other (non NB) squishy dps (stamina) survived in vCR+3 without shields

Because the OP is wrong.

Magsorcs don't do vCR portals (especially at last boss) because they can shield. The heavy, continuous damage down there is Oblivion and shields do nothing.

What works down there are "self healing while I DPS" classes like NBs (in fact you bring 7 of them to vCR as of today) AND magsorcs with healing matron.

With the difference that once the portal is done, the NB pops out fresh like "just minted", whereas the magsorc will have used most magicka on perma-spamming the healing matron and thus her DPS will be mediocre afterwards.

Because of this, progression guilds just use NBs and the 1 magsorc only stays in as Alkosh "buff-bot" and little more.

Vahrokh

Agenericname wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

vMA doesn't have a single one-shot mechanic. Something like power surge and a reasonable HP pool would be plenty sufficient for a magSorc to do it.

vCR+3 should be adjusted so more than just one spec can participate.

True, but many players (even outside of Sorcs) who run magicka toons rely on on that instant shield from ward or harness to stay alive. I certainly do, I won't pretend I'm good enough at solo-ing to get by without it.

The average player can't even complete VMA, but the average player who is able to complete it certainly makes ample use of instant shielding. Stamina is in the vast minority on the leaderboards, from what I understand, so it stands to reason their completion rates are just lower.

I think if these changes go through, VMA completion rates will drop drastically. Like, very drastically. I mean I'll try, but I don't think I'll be able to beat it anymore, and I consider myself pretty decent at the game. By no means "elite", but decent. That's why I'm saying that if the nerf happens, these things need to be looked at if they still wanna be accessible to any more than the top 1% or 2%.

It's a net loss in DPS, which is what they were going for.

By your logic, ZOS should have nerfed magblades by 10k and stamblades 12k just to "have a net loss in DPS".

I assure you that the lone 45k DPS magsorc is causing WAY much less "power creep" than the 7 nightblades doing 65k each.

Agenericname

Vahrokh wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

vMA doesn't have a single one-shot mechanic. Something like power surge and a reasonable HP pool would be plenty sufficient for a magSorc to do it.

vCR+3 should be adjusted so more than just one spec can participate.

True, but many players (even outside of Sorcs) who run magicka toons rely on on that instant shield from ward or harness to stay alive. I certainly do, I won't pretend I'm good enough at solo-ing to get by without it.

The average player can't even complete VMA, but the average player who is able to complete it certainly makes ample use of instant shielding. Stamina is in the vast minority on the leaderboards, from what I understand, so it stands to reason their completion rates are just lower.

I think if these changes go through, VMA completion rates will drop drastically. Like, very drastically. I mean I'll try, but I don't think I'll be able to beat it anymore, and I consider myself pretty decent at the game. By no means "elite", but decent. That's why I'm saying that if the nerf happens, these things need to be looked at if they still wanna be accessible to any more than the top 1% or 2%.

It's a net loss in DPS, which is what they were going for.

By your logic, ZOS should have nerfed magblades by 10k and stamblades 12k just to "have a net loss in DPS".

I assure you that the lone 45k DPS magsorc is causing WAY much less "power creep" than the 7 nightblades doing 65k each.

It's not my logic, I think they actually said that.

Stop saying nerf!

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,

Just wanted to let you know we've been monitoring the feedback on this thread and elsewhere on the forums. Clearly there's a lot of concern around the impact of adding a cast time to Conjured Ward and Annulment.

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. However, as many of you have pointed out, there are several potential issues with this solution. We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.

Vahrokh

Agenericname wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

vMA doesn't have a single one-shot mechanic. Something like power surge and a reasonable HP pool would be plenty sufficient for a magSorc to do it.

vCR+3 should be adjusted so more than just one spec can participate.

True, but many players (even outside of Sorcs) who run magicka toons rely on on that instant shield from ward or harness to stay alive. I certainly do, I won't pretend I'm good enough at solo-ing to get by without it.

The average player can't even complete VMA, but the average player who is able to complete it certainly makes ample use of instant shielding. Stamina is in the vast minority on the leaderboards, from what I understand, so it stands to reason their completion rates are just lower.

I think if these changes go through, VMA completion rates will drop drastically. Like, very drastically. I mean I'll try, but I don't think I'll be able to beat it anymore, and I consider myself pretty decent at the game. By no means "elite", but decent. That's why I'm saying that if the nerf happens, these things need to be looked at if they still wanna be accessible to any more than the top 1% or 2%.

It's a net loss in DPS, which is what they were going for.

By your logic, ZOS should have nerfed magblades by 10k and stamblades 12k just to "have a net loss in DPS".

I assure you that the lone 45k DPS magsorc is causing WAY much less "power creep" than the 7 nightblades doing 65k each.

It's not my logic, I think they actually said that.

Stop saying nerf!

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,

Just wanted to let you know we've been monitoring the feedback on this thread and elsewhere on the forums. Clearly there's a lot of concern around the impact of adding a cast time to Conjured Ward and Annulment.

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. However, as many of you have pointed out, there are several potential issues with this solution. We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.

Just because he is a game designer does not mean he has a clue.

He should explain how a magblade is less survivable or less damage dealing than a magsorc. In fact, hard facts say that the current meta is 7 magblades and 1 sorc in progression groups, not the contrary.

eso_nya

Vahrokh wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

one question how all other (non NB) squishy dps (stamina) survived in vCR+3 without shields

Because the OP is wrong.

Magsorcs don't do vCR portals (especially at last boss) because they can shield. The heavy, continuous damage down there is Oblivion and shields do nothing.

What works down there are "self healing while I DPS" classes like NBs (in fact you bring 7 of them to vCR as of today) AND magsorcs with healing matron.

With the difference that once the portal is done, the NB pops out fresh like "just minted", whereas the magsorc will have used most magicka on perma-spamming the healing matron and thus her DPS will be mediocre afterwards.

Because of this, progression guilds just use NBs and the 1 magsorc only stays in as Alkosh "buff-bot" and little more.

While that makes perfect sense to me, i do not understand how major parts of the "shield nerf" threads claim vcr+3 will be impossible w/ the casttime as it rips "all magicka users" of their one and only defense?

If sorcs rnt the meta for progression grps and shieldstacking isnt meta in pvp (cause sloads, shieldbreaker and co), why do ppl even care about the cast time?

Crafts_Many_Boxes

I think we're getting away from the main point here - honestly I haven't done VCR, that's just the example everyone is throwing around. The point is that there is content designed around having to heal / shield yourself while dpsing, and the proposed changes hamper sorcs and to a lesser extent all magicka's ability to do so. They designed these "jack of all trades" friendly scenarios, now they're removing a lot of that functionality.

Nicko_Lps

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

So, here's what I think it comes down to.

Per Rob Garett's post, the design intent with the shield changes are to make a meaningful choice between damage and survival. Okay, that's fine. I get that. I can even empathize with that, coming from MMOs where the line is much more clearly drawn between healing (shields) and dps like Wow and Rift.

The problem comes in when you look at high level PvE content in this game. There are tons of scenarios where DPS don't have access to proper healers, but are still expected to dps and perform at that high level, while taking huge amounts of damage. The most common example being thrown around right now is VCR+3, where any players doing the orbs / spears in the shadow realm take almost constant, heavy damage. Doing it without a dedicated healer for each dps is only possible because of shields, as I understand it. There's also VMA, which is a totally solo Raid where you are often taking your entire health bar in damage, and quite frequently, while being tasked with killing the big baddie quickly. Instant shields are the only reason most sorcs (and magicka users in general) can get through that content. Maybe everything is technically doable without instant shielding, but the skill level required is so high that it becomes achievable only by the top 1 or 2%. You're officially in Wildstar territory, and we know how well that turned out.

And then there's the matter of reactive vs pre-emptive combat. Part of this grand design intent by the developers is to make defensive measures pre-emptive instead of reactive. My first thought is: have you guys played your own game? The vast majority of ground aoe, attacks, spells, etc happen in the timeframe of under 1 second. Often times, there are no telegraphs ahead of time, especially in the arena of PvP. Basically, ESO is a reactive MMO. It's very fast paced, for better or for worse. Trying to input measures to make combat pre-emptive goes against the way encounters actually work.

So, we've reach a point where the developer's design intent is in direct opposition with the content the developers have actually created.

If these changes go through, the only logical recourse on Zenimax's end to properly address this core conflict is a massive balance pass on all high level content. Basically, content needs to function much more like traditional "holy trinity" MMOs. They need to eliminate all those scenarios where players are expected to perform multiple roles at once. They also need to slow PvE down significantly, pretty much across the board. There's a reason WoW would never implement VMA - they would have to give DPSers so much utility and self healing / shielding that they would lose their identity. That's always been the way ESO has operated - with blurred lines between the roles. If they want to make those lines less blurry and slow things down, they need to go back and fix all the content that supported the blurriness and the pacing.

WoW did implement a Challenge scenario like vma, its called mage tower and typically 1-2-3 small rooms depending class and i can sure tell you that my windwalkers 1 room Mage tower challenge had more mechanics that my whole VMA runs in 9 levels.

All dps in wow have defensives of their own, priests have shields even the dps priest have shields and nice heals + leech.
Do not compare WoW that is balanced from serious developers from serious company to ESO that is balanced based on what NON L2P forum whiner kids need in forums.

Vahrokh

eso_nya wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

one question how all other (non NB) squishy dps (stamina) survived in vCR+3 without shields

Because the OP is wrong.

Magsorcs don't do vCR portals (especially at last boss) because they can shield. The heavy, continuous damage down there is Oblivion and shields do nothing.

What works down there are "self healing while I DPS" classes like NBs (in fact you bring 7 of them to vCR as of today) AND magsorcs with healing matron.

With the difference that once the portal is done, the NB pops out fresh like "just minted", whereas the magsorc will have used most magicka on perma-spamming the healing matron and thus her DPS will be mediocre afterwards.

Because of this, progression guilds just use NBs and the 1 magsorc only stays in as Alkosh "buff-bot" and little more.

While that makes perfect sense to me, i do not understand how major parts of the "shield nerf" threads claim vcr+3 will be impossible w/ the casttime as it rips "all magicka users" of their one and only defense?

If sorcs rnt the meta for progression grps and shieldstacking isnt meta in pvp (cause sloads, shieldbreaker and co), why do ppl even care about the cast time?

1) Because locking vCR + n to one (1) class is just wrong. It shows how poorly those "new" trials have been planned. Go vMoL or vHoF to experience trials that are professionally designed, awesome and fair to everyone.

2) Because outside of top progression guilds, there's a plethora of "between soft-core and hard-core" guilds which still allow "unlucky plebs" (sorcs, wardens, DKs...) into DPS positions. I play in 3 of those guilds.
These are not competitive guilds, because by not employing the top meta (read: exclusively only NBs), they cannot, ever, hope to race to be first at new encounters first kills.
However they are "good enough" for people like me, who know that just because they are not NBs, they are excluded and banned from top groups. As such, I accept I'll never be invited to a top guild and am happy to have joined a guild (one of my 3) that the day it has been created, we have cleared vMoL. If we had been all NBs, we could have cleared hard mode vMoL at day zero instead (due to the tremendous additional DPS).

3) vCR + 3, as I said above, is poorly made (like vAS). Instead of a proper, expensive trial, they made "quickies" (to develop) that just implement little content and that content is recycled too. Basically you can kill 2-3 (depending on trial) bosses and then kill the final boss, or you can go to the final boss and fight him + all the other bosses in one room.
The net effect is more or less (there are some tweaks) you get all the AoE, red cicles, 1 shot mechanics and so on all neatly packaged together. So it is a Rambo style Vietnam, where you constantly walk between napalm, mines, shooting and so on:

- magblades just enjoy their rich arsenal of damage evasion skills (and they can shield on top of that) and do it with no effort.

- magsorcs have ZERO evasion skills, so they have to spam shields like crazy, because while mechanic A is running and you have to run (meteors or similar) mechanic B is popping fire under your feet and mechanic C sends suicide bomb-npcs towards you and mechanic D create a massive lightning "pool" that almost 1 shots you. And all of this forms under your feet in less than 1 second.

- stam classes dodge roll like crazy. Good stam players will not die. Don't believe the dumb stuff that baddies tell you about stam players dying all the time. Many ranged players have to stay at melee range too: to bash adds (many setups don't use crushing shock), to stay in purge range, to stay in healers frontal cone (healers stand slightly behind melee in some encounters) and to use Zaan set.
What makes stam players less wanted is the fact that they are so busy dodging that they cannot do DPS.

Vahrokh

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

So, here's what I think it comes down to.

Per Rob Garett's post, the design intent with the shield changes are to make a meaningful choice between damage and survival. Okay, that's fine. I get that. I can even empathize with that, coming from MMOs where the line is much more clearly drawn between healing (shields) and dps like Wow and Rift.

The problem comes in when you look at high level PvE content in this game. There are tons of scenarios where DPS don't have access to proper healers, but are still expected to dps and perform at that high level, while taking huge amounts of damage. The most common example being thrown around right now is VCR+3, where any players doing the orbs / spears in the shadow realm take almost constant, heavy damage. Doing it without a dedicated healer for each dps is only possible because of shields, as I understand it. There's also VMA, which is a totally solo Raid where you are often taking your entire health bar in damage, and quite frequently, while being tasked with killing the big baddie quickly. Instant shields are the only reason most sorcs (and magicka users in general) can get through that content. Maybe everything is technically doable without instant shielding, but the skill level required is so high that it becomes achievable only by the top 1 or 2%. You're officially in Wildstar territory, and we know how well that turned out.

And then there's the matter of reactive vs pre-emptive combat. Part of this grand design intent by the developers is to make defensive measures pre-emptive instead of reactive. My first thought is: have you guys played your own game? The vast majority of ground aoe, attacks, spells, etc happen in the timeframe of under 1 second. Often times, there are no telegraphs ahead of time, especially in the arena of PvP. Basically, ESO is a reactive MMO. It's very fast paced, for better or for worse. Trying to input measures to make combat pre-emptive goes against the way encounters actually work.

So, we've reach a point where the developer's design intent is in direct opposition with the content the developers have actually created.

If these changes go through, the only logical recourse on Zenimax's end to properly address this core conflict is a massive balance pass on all high level content. Basically, content needs to function much more like traditional "holy trinity" MMOs. They need to eliminate all those scenarios where players are expected to perform multiple roles at once. They also need to slow PvE down significantly, pretty much across the board. There's a reason WoW would never implement VMA - they would have to give DPSers so much utility and self healing / shielding that they would lose their identity. That's always been the way ESO has operated - with blurred lines between the roles. If they want to make those lines less blurry and slow things down, they need to go back and fix all the content that supported the blurriness and the pacing.

WoW did implement a Challenge scenario like vma, its called mage tower and typically 1-2-3 small rooms depending class and i can sure tell you that my windwalkers 1 room Mage tower challenge had more mechanics that my whole VMA runs in 9 levels.

All dps in wow have defensives of their own, priests have shields even the dps priest have shields and nice heals + leech.
Do not compare WoW that is balanced from serious developers from serious company to ESO that is balanced based on what NON L2P forum whiner kids need in forums.

I've played in WoW in two "world 100 top kills" hard core guilds, both as tank and healer and DPS. Despite its age, WoW has an unsurpassable and responsive network code, with no glitches, no lag (in PvE) nothing. Plus the content is extremely polished and bug free, an ESO player would be shocked returning to ESO after playing WoW for 1 year. I am talking about some years ago, now I don't know how WoW has become.

Nicko_Lps

Vahrokh wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

So, here's what I think it comes down to.

Per Rob Garett's post, the design intent with the shield changes are to make a meaningful choice between damage and survival. Okay, that's fine. I get that. I can even empathize with that, coming from MMOs where the line is much more clearly drawn between healing (shields) and dps like Wow and Rift.

The problem comes in when you look at high level PvE content in this game. There are tons of scenarios where DPS don't have access to proper healers, but are still expected to dps and perform at that high level, while taking huge amounts of damage. The most common example being thrown around right now is VCR+3, where any players doing the orbs / spears in the shadow realm take almost constant, heavy damage. Doing it without a dedicated healer for each dps is only possible because of shields, as I understand it. There's also VMA, which is a totally solo Raid where you are often taking your entire health bar in damage, and quite frequently, while being tasked with killing the big baddie quickly. Instant shields are the only reason most sorcs (and magicka users in general) can get through that content. Maybe everything is technically doable without instant shielding, but the skill level required is so high that it becomes achievable only by the top 1 or 2%. You're officially in Wildstar territory, and we know how well that turned out.

And then there's the matter of reactive vs pre-emptive combat. Part of this grand design intent by the developers is to make defensive measures pre-emptive instead of reactive. My first thought is: have you guys played your own game? The vast majority of ground aoe, attacks, spells, etc happen in the timeframe of under 1 second. Often times, there are no telegraphs ahead of time, especially in the arena of PvP. Basically, ESO is a reactive MMO. It's very fast paced, for better or for worse. Trying to input measures to make combat pre-emptive goes against the way encounters actually work.

So, we've reach a point where the developer's design intent is in direct opposition with the content the developers have actually created.

If these changes go through, the only logical recourse on Zenimax's end to properly address this core conflict is a massive balance pass on all high level content. Basically, content needs to function much more like traditional "holy trinity" MMOs. They need to eliminate all those scenarios where players are expected to perform multiple roles at once. They also need to slow PvE down significantly, pretty much across the board. There's a reason WoW would never implement VMA - they would have to give DPSers so much utility and self healing / shielding that they would lose their identity. That's always been the way ESO has operated - with blurred lines between the roles. If they want to make those lines less blurry and slow things down, they need to go back and fix all the content that supported the blurriness and the pacing.

WoW did implement a Challenge scenario like vma, its called mage tower and typically 1-2-3 small rooms depending class and i can sure tell you that my windwalkers 1 room Mage tower challenge had more mechanics that my whole VMA runs in 9 levels.

All dps in wow have defensives of their own, priests have shields even the dps priest have shields and nice heals + leech.
Do not compare WoW that is balanced from serious developers from serious company to ESO that is balanced based on what NON L2P forum whiner kids need in forums.

I've played in WoW in two "world 100 top kills" hard core guilds, both as tank and healer and DPS. Despite its age, WoW has an unsurpassable and responsibe network code, with no glitches, no lag (in PvE) nothing. Plus the content is extremely polished and bug free, an ESO player would be shocked returning to ESO after playing WoW for 1 year. I am talking about some years ago, now I don't know how WoW has become.

Its in the same perfect state, the only problem with it is you probably go for rankings+mythic if you go back there.. The new artifact system demands alot of grind in order to be top of the line player, that made me quit it and nothing else.

But hey ZoS sends me back. Thats something.

madarame_77

That's it!

Pre-emptive shield is bull****! No one will constantly cast shield in battle just in case because that will ruin sustain and will lower dps. And with combat so fast-paced if you see heavy damage on you to quickly cast shields. And most times because of stuns they give you are already like 10-20% health when you manage to cast hardened ward. Now you are just dead!

And dont tell about healers because there is so much AOE and direct damage, for example in trials were it is not possible to stay tight in one group because of the mechanics. As a sorc you will just be kicked now from any vet trial qroup. And I do not want even to begin talking about vMA!

What will likely happen now is sorcs will be forced to use resto staff on back bar which means SIGNIFICANTLY lower DPS! So your whole concept of glass cannon is ruined because it is not possible to realize!

Imperial_Voice

Im going to write a book in the samr vein as OPs thread here; "How to Use Meaningless Buzzwords to Trick People into Agreeing with Subjective Opinions Not Based in Fact"

Splattercat_83

eso_nya wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

one question how all other (non NB) squishy dps (stamina) survived in vCR+3 without shields

Because the OP is wrong.

Magsorcs don't do vCR portals (especially at last boss) because they can shield. The heavy, continuous damage down there is Oblivion and shields do nothing.

What works down there are "self healing while I DPS" classes like NBs (in fact you bring 7 of them to vCR as of today) AND magsorcs with healing matron.

With the difference that once the portal is done, the NB pops out fresh like "just minted", whereas the magsorc will have used most magicka on perma-spamming the healing matron and thus her DPS will be mediocre afterwards.

Because of this, progression guilds just use NBs and the 1 magsorc only stays in as Alkosh "buff-bot" and little more.

While that makes perfect sense to me, i do not understand how major parts of the "shield nerf" threads claim vcr+3 will be impossible w/ the casttime as it rips "all magicka users" of their one and only defense?

If sorcs rnt the meta for progression grps and shieldstacking isnt meta in pvp (cause sloads, shieldbreaker and co), why do ppl even care about the cast time?

Because sorcs aren't the ones who use shields all magic classes use them

Vahrokh

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

So, here's what I think it comes down to.

Per Rob Garett's post, the design intent with the shield changes are to make a meaningful choice between damage and survival. Okay, that's fine. I get that. I can even empathize with that, coming from MMOs where the line is much more clearly drawn between healing (shields) and dps like Wow and Rift.

The problem comes in when you look at high level PvE content in this game. There are tons of scenarios where DPS don't have access to proper healers, but are still expected to dps and perform at that high level, while taking huge amounts of damage. The most common example being thrown around right now is VCR+3, where any players doing the orbs / spears in the shadow realm take almost constant, heavy damage. Doing it without a dedicated healer for each dps is only possible because of shields, as I understand it. There's also VMA, which is a totally solo Raid where you are often taking your entire health bar in damage, and quite frequently, while being tasked with killing the big baddie quickly. Instant shields are the only reason most sorcs (and magicka users in general) can get through that content. Maybe everything is technically doable without instant shielding, but the skill level required is so high that it becomes achievable only by the top 1 or 2%. You're officially in Wildstar territory, and we know how well that turned out.

And then there's the matter of reactive vs pre-emptive combat. Part of this grand design intent by the developers is to make defensive measures pre-emptive instead of reactive. My first thought is: have you guys played your own game? The vast majority of ground aoe, attacks, spells, etc happen in the timeframe of under 1 second. Often times, there are no telegraphs ahead of time, especially in the arena of PvP. Basically, ESO is a reactive MMO. It's very fast paced, for better or for worse. Trying to input measures to make combat pre-emptive goes against the way encounters actually work.

So, we've reach a point where the developer's design intent is in direct opposition with the content the developers have actually created.

If these changes go through, the only logical recourse on Zenimax's end to properly address this core conflict is a massive balance pass on all high level content. Basically, content needs to function much more like traditional "holy trinity" MMOs. They need to eliminate all those scenarios where players are expected to perform multiple roles at once. They also need to slow PvE down significantly, pretty much across the board. There's a reason WoW would never implement VMA - they would have to give DPSers so much utility and self healing / shielding that they would lose their identity. That's always been the way ESO has operated - with blurred lines between the roles. If they want to make those lines less blurry and slow things down, they need to go back and fix all the content that supported the blurriness and the pacing.

WoW did implement a Challenge scenario like vma, its called mage tower and typically 1-2-3 small rooms depending class and i can sure tell you that my windwalkers 1 room Mage tower challenge had more mechanics that my whole VMA runs in 9 levels.

All dps in wow have defensives of their own, priests have shields even the dps priest have shields and nice heals + leech.
Do not compare WoW that is balanced from serious developers from serious company to ESO that is balanced based on what NON L2P forum whiner kids need in forums.

I've played in WoW in two "world 100 top kills" hard core guilds, both as tank and healer and DPS. Despite its age, WoW has an unsurpassable and responsibe network code, with no glitches, no lag (in PvE) nothing. Plus the content is extremely polished and bug free, an ESO player would be shocked returning to ESO after playing WoW for 1 year. I am talking about some years ago, now I don't know how WoW has become.

Its in the same perfect state, the only problem with it is you probably go for rankings+mythic if you go back there.. The new artifact system demands alot of grind in order to be top of the line player, that made me quit it and nothing else.

But hey ZoS sends me back. Thats something.

In order to be in a top world 100 guild I had to grind pots and run raids for 14h a day. I don't fear grinding, if at the end of the grind there's a BIG JACKPOT. In ESO I have honed my character since day zero and what I have left is an empty shell of what used to be a fun and awesome class.

Splattercat_83

Vahrokh wrote: »

eso_nya wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

one question how all other (non NB) squishy dps (stamina) survived in vCR+3 without shields

Because the OP is wrong.

Magsorcs don't do vCR portals (especially at last boss) because they can shield. The heavy, continuous damage down there is Oblivion and shields do nothing.

What works down there are "self healing while I DPS" classes like NBs (in fact you bring 7 of them to vCR as of today) AND magsorcs with healing matron.

With the difference that once the portal is done, the NB pops out fresh like "just minted", whereas the magsorc will have used most magicka on perma-spamming the healing matron and thus her DPS will be mediocre afterwards.

Because of this, progression guilds just use NBs and the 1 magsorc only stays in as Alkosh "buff-bot" and little more.

While that makes perfect sense to me, i do not understand how major parts of the "shield nerf" threads claim vcr+3 will be impossible w/ the casttime as it rips "all magicka users" of their one and only defense?

If sorcs rnt the meta for progression grps and shieldstacking isnt meta in pvp (cause sloads, shieldbreaker and co), why do ppl even care about the cast time?

1) Because locking vCR + n to one (1) class is just wrong. It shows how poorly those "new" trials have been planned. Go vMoL or vHoF to experience trials that are professionally designed, awesome and fair to everyone.

2) Because outside of top progression guilds, there's a plethora of "between soft-core and hard-core" guilds which still allow "unlucky plebs" (sorcs, wardens, DKs...) into DPS positions. I play in 3 of those guilds.
These are not competitive guilds, because by not employing the top meta (read: exclusively only NBs), they cannot, ever, hope to race to be first at new encounters first kills.
However they are "good enough" for people like me, who know that just because they are not NBs, they are excluded and banned from top groups. As such, I accept I'll never be invited to a top guild and am happy to have joined a guild (one of my 3) that the day it has been created, we have cleared vMoL. If we had been all NBs, we could have cleared hard mode vMoL at day zero instead (due to the tremendous additional DPS).

3) vCR + 3, as I said above, is poorly made (like vAS). Instead of a proper, expensive trial, they made "quickies" (to develop) that just implement little content and that content is recycled too. Basically you can kill 2-3 (depending on trial) bosses and then kill the final boss, or you can go to the final boss and fight him + all the other bosses in one room.
The net effect is more or less (there are some tweaks) you get all the AoE, red cicles, 1 shot mechanics and so on all neatly packaged together. So it is a Rambo style Vietnam, where you constantly walk between napalm, mines, shooting and so on:

- magblades just enjoy their rich arsenal of damage evasion skills (and they can shield on top of that) and do it with no effort.

- magsorcs have ZERO evasion skills, so they have to spam shields like crazy, because while mechanic A is running and you have to run (meteors or similar) mechanic B is popping fire under your feet and mechanic C sends suicide bomb-npcs towards you and mechanic D create a massive lightning "pool" that almost 1 shots you. And all of this forms under your feet in less than 1 second.

- stam classes dodge roll like crazy. Good stam players will not die. Don't believe the dumb stuff that baddies tell you about stam players dying all the time. Many ranged players have to stay at melee range too: to bash adds (many setups don't use crushing shock), to stay in purge range, to stay in healers frontal cone (healers stand slightly behind melee in some encounters) and to use Zaan set.
What makes stam players less wanted is the fact that they are so busy dodging that they cannot do DPS.

You sound salty about nightblades, magblades in general. Here is a little juicy fact for you, get ready......I know this is going to blow your mind.... sorcs do almost the same damage a magblade does when you are in group. Here is why, you can proc frags more often than we can our bows, your liquid lightning hits harder than our twisting path, your curse hits harder than our cripple and you only have to cast it once, the frag procs because you have the skill slotted. We have to activate a skill which costs magick, and we have to actually pay attention to our weaving to proc it. We have access to minor beserk but you get that with combat prayer. Where we shined is the low cost of our spamables ele weapon, or swallow (that got nerfed because zos had to buy to many tissues for everyone that was jealous of it) we can execute earlier than a sorc, but sorcs have implosion that will stack with execute damage so that is neglagible.

With all this being said the only thing that separates the two are two factors minor berserk and sustain. Everyone's constant crying about nightblades is getting that screwed over. You should really behind getting sustain improved for the classes instead of crying about nightblades.

KatzMainTank

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

So, we've reach a point where the developer's design intent is in direct opposition with the content the developers have actually created.

If these changes go through, the only logical recourse on Zenimax's end to properly address this core conflict is a massive balance pass on all high level content. Basically, content needs to function much more like traditional "holy trinity" MMOs. They need to eliminate all those scenarios where players are expected to perform multiple roles at once. They also need to slow PvE down significantly, pretty much across the board. There's a reason WoW would never implement VMA - they would have to give DPSers so much utility and self healing / shielding that they would lose their identity. That's always been the way ESO has operated - with blurred lines between the roles. If they want to make those lines less blurry and slow things down, they need to go back and fix all the content that supported the blurriness and the pacing.

Agreed. When ESO was first announced I assumed that it wasn't going to be class based gameplay like traditional MMO's, which obviously changed later with the defined classes being released. I enjoy class based gameplay but after playing a bit of the beta and release I knew there would eventually be a conflict between the content and the "play your way" ideology.

In my opinion there should never have been classes and all skill lines should have been chosen by the player. This would have forced much more streamlined balancing over the current "well this class has this so I should have this". Oddly enough that also would have opened up much more breathing room for the types of content released. Any one person could fill a role at any given moment, with reasonable restrictions of course. Both developer and player would have been given a much wider range of creativity with minimal friction. They could have even monetized additional character setups the same way they have with toon slots making them more personal to the players. No need to create additional characters would have made cosmetics a much more attractive endeavor for the sake of looking aesthetically unique. Even a step further, cosmetics altering skill colors/effects giving players an even more personalized experience. The list could go on for days...

But this is what we got. The perpetual back and forth of over-partitioned design with nothing ever being finalized. I know it's way too late to change anything but I feel Zeni had this choice in the beginning but chose class based structure to be more appealing to traditional MMO players which I think was a mistake. A big money loss kind of mistake.

Puppers knows the pain:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1043146392733196288

Reistr_the_Unbroken

KatzMainTank wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

So, we've reach a point where the developer's design intent is in direct opposition with the content the developers have actually created.

If these changes go through, the only logical recourse on Zenimax's end to properly address this core conflict is a massive balance pass on all high level content. Basically, content needs to function much more like traditional "holy trinity" MMOs. They need to eliminate all those scenarios where players are expected to perform multiple roles at once. They also need to slow PvE down significantly, pretty much across the board. There's a reason WoW would never implement VMA - they would have to give DPSers so much utility and self healing / shielding that they would lose their identity. That's always been the way ESO has operated - with blurred lines between the roles. If they want to make those lines less blurry and slow things down, they need to go back and fix all the content that supported the blurriness and the pacing.

Agreed. When ESO was first announced I assumed that it wasn't going to be class based gameplay like traditional MMO's, which obviously changed later with the defined classes being released. I enjoy class based gameplay but after playing a bit of the beta and release I knew there would eventually be a conflict between the content and the "play your way" ideology.

In my opinion there should never have been classes and all skill lines should have been chosen by the player. This would have forced much more streamlined balancing over the current "well this class has this so I should have this". Oddly enough that also would have opened up much more breathing room for the types of content released. Any one person could fill a role at any given moment, with reasonable restrictions of course. Both developer and player would have been given a much wider range of creativity with minimal friction. They could have even monetized additional character setups the same way they have with toon slots making them more personal to the players. No need to create additional characters would have made cosmetics a much more attractive endeavor for the sake of looking aesthetically unique. Even a step further, cosmetics altering skill colors/effects giving players an even more personalized experience. The list could go on for days...

But this is what we got. The perpetual back and forth of over-partitioned design with nothing ever being finalized. I know it's way too late to change anything but I feel Zeni had this choice in the beginning but chose class based structure to be more appealing to traditional MMO players which I think was a mistake. A big money loss kind of mistake.

Puppers knows the pain:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1043146392733196288

I laughed way too hard at this-