The Lady Mundus stone needs a 43% Buff to make it a viable choice [Video]

K3ntaaa

Quick Summary:

The Lady Mundus is underperforming.You can see that by comparing the Lady Mundus (Resistance) vs Tower Mundus (Max Stam) and Protectiv (Resistance) vs Robust (Max Stamina).

In order to make the Lady Mundus viable, it needs to get buffed by 43% to 3945 from 2752 Resistance.

Most of the other Mundus stones are in line with their jewelry trait counterpart. (For example Warrior vs Tower and Infsued vs Robust)

You can say that this information is quite useless, since no one is running lady mundus anyway. Im not gonna deny the that fact. I just want to share the informations I got out of all the research I did while theorycrafting on my Stamina Warden.

The goal is to give spread informations aswell as give you Ideas that you guys can use in your own builds.

Link to the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK99PULJbro&t=

check out my channel for edited gameplay and guides on a regular basis
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLk4pslZg9bCWQQYTJt3AbQ?view_as=subscriber

Dashmatt

With all the talk of new overpowered sets and nerfed skills, we could all use a reminder that what this game really needs is buffs to unused skills, sets, and (apparently) Mundus Stones. Good job!

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

You can use divines to amp the mindas by 55% so there is that.

ccfeeling

Because we can access Major Resolve and Major Ward easily from different sources with 1 skill slot only , unlike other .

Masel

Yep, you can see that through comparing them to regular bonuses and 5 piece sets as well:

Brass gives ~5280 resistance, regular bonus ~2975 and the mundus stone ~4196 (these might be a bit off since they come out of my head right now. The mundus stone isn't even 1.5 times stronger than a regular bonus.

On the offensive side, lover gives 4196, a regular bonus ~1480 and five piece sets give 3440 (spriggan/Spinner). So the mundus is the strongest (using divines).

Shadow is also pretty bad. You have higher critical hits with warrior and apprentice....

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

@Masel92 from the patch notes here -
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4420099#Comment_4420099

We’ve also standardized Mundus Stone values against other systems that grant similar bonuses, such as enchantments or Item Sets, so you can customize the stats you care about in each system without needing to worry about weighing the exact values against each other. Mundus Stones are now equivalent to 1.85x of an Item Set bonus

so since a set bonus for armor is 2975, with just either physical or spell, the mundas ought to be 5504, from 2752. but they also say this-

Similar to how Mundus Stones were changed, Weapon Trait values have also been rebalanced with a focus on improving overall diversity. Weapon Trait values have a 1:1 pairing with the effectiveness of Mundus Stones; this means if you want armor, you can get the Lady Mundus Stone or a Defending weapon and they will both give you 2752 armor.

so they are getting the value for the lady from the weapon trait and not the item set bonus.

also for the record, and item set bonus for pen is 1487, almost exacly half of the item set bonus for armor, 2975. and is multiplied by 1.85 to get sharpened and lover values of 2750.95.



and the thing about the shadow, have you tested that?

Masel

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Masel92 from the patch notes here -
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4420099#Comment_4420099

We’ve also standardized Mundus Stone values against other systems that grant similar bonuses, such as enchantments or Item Sets, so you can customize the stats you care about in each system without needing to worry about weighing the exact values against each other. Mundus Stones are now equivalent to 1.85x of an Item Set bonus

so since a set bonus for armor is 2975, with just either physical or spell, the mundas ought to be 5504, from 2752. but they also say this-

Similar to how Mundus Stones were changed, Weapon Trait values have also been rebalanced with a focus on improving overall diversity. Weapon Trait values have a 1:1 pairing with the effectiveness of Mundus Stones; this means if you want armor, you can get the Lady Mundus Stone or a Defending weapon and they will both give you 2752 armor.

so they are getting the value for the lady from the weapon trait and not the item set bonus.



and the thing about the shadow, have you tested that? or you just repeating what you have heard?

Yeah it's quite inconsistent...


I tested that, you can simply stand there, and observe maximum hits in combat metrics. The critical hits will be higher with warrior, favouring it over the shadow.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Masel92 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Masel92 from the patch notes here -
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4420099#Comment_4420099

We’ve also standardized Mundus Stone values against other systems that grant similar bonuses, such as enchantments or Item Sets, so you can customize the stats you care about in each system without needing to worry about weighing the exact values against each other. Mundus Stones are now equivalent to 1.85x of an Item Set bonus

so since a set bonus for armor is 2975, with just either physical or spell, the mundas ought to be 5504, from 2752. but they also say this-

Similar to how Mundus Stones were changed, Weapon Trait values have also been rebalanced with a focus on improving overall diversity. Weapon Trait values have a 1:1 pairing with the effectiveness of Mundus Stones; this means if you want armor, you can get the Lady Mundus Stone or a Defending weapon and they will both give you 2752 armor.

they are getting the value for the lady from the weapon trait and not the item set bonus.



and the thing about the shadow, have you tested that? or you just repeating what you have heard?

Yeah it's quite inconsistent...


I tested that, you can simply stand there, and observe maximum hits in combat metrics. The critical hits will be higher with warrior, favouring it over the shadow.

i did not mean to come off as though you wouldn't test it before saying that, you are probably the number 1 math guy in eso right after @Asayre fell off the forums. i removed the part that made it sound like that. any input on my other edit? this-

for the record( i am impressed you got so close out of your head), an item set bonus for pen is 1487, almost exactly half of the item set bonus for armor, 2975. and is multiplied by 1.85 to get 2750.95. close to sharpened and lover values of 2752.

for the five piece of the sets, here is what zos says from that same update-

The bonus for having 5 pieces is approximately 2.31x the value of a one-piece bonus. For example, you can get a set bonus of 129 Spell Damage, or a 5-piece bonus of 299 Spell Damage on Julianos.

Some sets, such as Necropotence, have conditional bonuses. Since it’s harder to get these bonuses, we are allowing them to provide up to a 25% increase over other sets. This is why Dragur Hulk now gives 2540 max resource and Necropotence now gives 3150.

3440 (spriggan/Spinner) is actually 3450 and 3450/ 2.31 is 1493, damn close to ZOSs intent. more consistent then you make it out to be, the only real outlyer is the item set bonus physical/spell resist. no idea why they doubled that one. brass is 5170 resist, close to the 2.31 and the 25% more they stated, 2.8875.



i tested shadow and apprentice, like you said to do, and i come up with different results then you say would happen.

for i did my magblade, who used the shadow for rp reasons, also have 17% into elfborn and have an assassination ability slotted, using full gold divines, 7*7.5% for all tests, except for one, and no stat changing sets i came up with these numbers-

crit with shadow- 14047

crit with apprentice- 13847

apprentice is lower then shadow.

then i put on my normal infused helm, as the shadow with 7 divines comes out to 13.68 and the game rounds this number down to just 13% anyways

i did the same thing on my stamblade. same set up, no stat changing sets or weapon abilities, with 19% into precise strikes and an assassination ability slotted-

cirts with dizzying swing and warrior, as i did not want to use surprise attack, i get 20366

full log here-

normal hits for 11378.


crits from the shadow, 20515 here-

full log here-

normal hits for 10685.

if you look at this, you will see that crits do not hit for more with the apprentice or the warrior. though you will probably get more dps with the higher noncrits to make up for it, though enchants do not get the boost from warrior but they do from the shadow.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

okay having actually watched the video, he is comparing things all wrong, as far as i can see. first there is the fact of the things i already posted in this thread, that zos "balanced" around item set bonuses and weapon traits. not jewelry traits. fact is, that what would probably happen is that protective get a 33% reduction, since that is the newer thing and if they did what you are asking, zos would have to buff defending, then they would have to buff sharpened, then they would have to buff lover and so on.

then there is the fact that he is taking the base values of the mundai, not the max values you can get from having divines on your armor.


when you say that 3 stam jewelry is worth 2610 and the tower is only 2028, it really ought to be 3132 for the jewelry and 3092 for the mundus. why 3132 you ask? champion points. champion point percentage amps do not apply to max stat mundai, but they do apply to everything else. and 3092 for the mundas because the 52.5% you get from 7 divines. you have to take them at their best values. so 3132-3092. much closer. you also only manage to bring redguard up as the only thing that buffs max stam. there are at least 2 other percent amps, besides champion points, for max stam in the game. so why only bring up one?

that would make the resistance calculation you are trying to make here, 5532-4196. much closer.

don't even get me started on how you calculated with weapon damage. weapon damage is buffed by way more then just major brutality.




also-

literally unwatchable.



though, i am looking forward to why you think the ritual mundus is bad.




in the end, you might just be talking about pvp (no CP and you will not have divines on your armor, you will have inpen). if this is what you are going for, please post this video here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/PvP-combat-skills, you will get better feedback if that is the case.

Casul

Honestly at this point I think the lady should give crit resistance. I haven’t heard of one person ever using that mundus stone.

Masel

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Masel92 from the patch notes here -
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4420099#Comment_4420099

We’ve also standardized Mundus Stone values against other systems that grant similar bonuses, such as enchantments or Item Sets, so you can customize the stats you care about in each system without needing to worry about weighing the exact values against each other. Mundus Stones are now equivalent to 1.85x of an Item Set bonus

so since a set bonus for armor is 2975, with just either physical or spell, the mundas ought to be 5504, from 2752. but they also say this-

Similar to how Mundus Stones were changed, Weapon Trait values have also been rebalanced with a focus on improving overall diversity. Weapon Trait values have a 1:1 pairing with the effectiveness of Mundus Stones; this means if you want armor, you can get the Lady Mundus Stone or a Defending weapon and they will both give you 2752 armor.

they are getting the value for the lady from the weapon trait and not the item set bonus.



and the thing about the shadow, have you tested that? or you just repeating what you have heard?

Yeah it's quite inconsistent...


I tested that, you can simply stand there, and observe maximum hits in combat metrics. The critical hits will be higher with warrior, favouring it over the shadow.

i did not mean to come off as though you wouldn't test it before saying that, you are probably the number 1 math guy in eso right after @Asayre fell off the forums. i removed the part that made it sound like that. any input on my other edit? this-

for the record( i am impressed you got so close out of your head), an item set bonus for pen is 1487, almost exactly half of the item set bonus for armor, 2975. and is multiplied by 1.85 to get 2750.95. close to sharpened and lover values of 2752.

for the five piece of the sets, here is what zos says from that same update-

The bonus for having 5 pieces is approximately 2.31x the value of a one-piece bonus. For example, you can get a set bonus of 129 Spell Damage, or a 5-piece bonus of 299 Spell Damage on Julianos.

Some sets, such as Necropotence, have conditional bonuses. Since it’s harder to get these bonuses, we are allowing them to provide up to a 25% increase over other sets. This is why Dragur Hulk now gives 2540 max resource and Necropotence now gives 3150.

3440 (spriggan/Spinner) is actually 3450 and 3450/ 2.31 is 1493, damn close to ZOSs intent. more consistent then you make it out to be, the only real outlyer is the item set bonus physical/spell resist. no idea why they doubled that one. brass is 5170 resist, close to the 2.31 and the 25% more they stated, 2.8875.



i tested shadow and apprentice, like you said to do, and i come up with different results then you say would happen.

for i did my magblade, who used the shadow for rp reasons, also have 17% into elfborn and have an assassination ability slotted, using full gold divines, 7*7.5% for all tests, except for one, and no stat changing sets i came up with these numbers-

crit with shadow- 14047

crit with apprentice- 13847

apprentice is lower then shadow.

then i put on my normal infused helm, as the shadow with 7 divines comes out to 13.68 and the game rounds this number down to just 13% anyways

i did the same thing on my stamblade. same set up, no stat changing sets or weapon abilities, with 19% into precise strikes and an assassination ability slotted-

cirts with dizzying swing and warrior, as i did not want to use surprise attack, i get 20366

full log here-

normal hits for 11378.


crits from the shadow, 20515 here-

full log here-

normal hits for 10685.

if you look at this, you will see that crits do not hit for more with the apprentice or the warrior. though you will probably get more dps with the higher noncrits to make up for it, though enchants do not get the boost from warrior but they do from the shadow.

Thats insightful, and weird at the same time, because the last time i tried it, it wasnt the case. I'll test it again and then get back to you on it.

getemshauna

Masel92 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Masel92 from the patch notes here -
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4420099#Comment_4420099

We’ve also standardized Mundus Stone values against other systems that grant similar bonuses, such as enchantments or Item Sets, so you can customize the stats you care about in each system without needing to worry about weighing the exact values against each other. Mundus Stones are now equivalent to 1.85x of an Item Set bonus

so since a set bonus for armor is 2975, with just either physical or spell, the mundas ought to be 5504, from 2752. but they also say this-

Similar to how Mundus Stones were changed, Weapon Trait values have also been rebalanced with a focus on improving overall diversity. Weapon Trait values have a 1:1 pairing with the effectiveness of Mundus Stones; this means if you want armor, you can get the Lady Mundus Stone or a Defending weapon and they will both give you 2752 armor.

they are getting the value for the lady from the weapon trait and not the item set bonus.



and the thing about the shadow, have you tested that? or you just repeating what you have heard?

Yeah it's quite inconsistent...


I tested that, you can simply stand there, and observe maximum hits in combat metrics. The critical hits will be higher with warrior, favouring it over the shadow.

i did not mean to come off as though you wouldn't test it before saying that, you are probably the number 1 math guy in eso right after @Asayre fell off the forums. i removed the part that made it sound like that. any input on my other edit? this-

for the record( i am impressed you got so close out of your head), an item set bonus for pen is 1487, almost exactly half of the item set bonus for armor, 2975. and is multiplied by 1.85 to get 2750.95. close to sharpened and lover values of 2752.

for the five piece of the sets, here is what zos says from that same update-

The bonus for having 5 pieces is approximately 2.31x the value of a one-piece bonus. For example, you can get a set bonus of 129 Spell Damage, or a 5-piece bonus of 299 Spell Damage on Julianos.

Some sets, such as Necropotence, have conditional bonuses. Since it’s harder to get these bonuses, we are allowing them to provide up to a 25% increase over other sets. This is why Dragur Hulk now gives 2540 max resource and Necropotence now gives 3150.

3440 (spriggan/Spinner) is actually 3450 and 3450/ 2.31 is 1493, damn close to ZOSs intent. more consistent then you make it out to be, the only real outlyer is the item set bonus physical/spell resist. no idea why they doubled that one. brass is 5170 resist, close to the 2.31 and the 25% more they stated, 2.8875.



i tested shadow and apprentice, like you said to do, and i come up with different results then you say would happen.

for i did my magblade, who used the shadow for rp reasons, also have 17% into elfborn and have an assassination ability slotted, using full gold divines, 7*7.5% for all tests, except for one, and no stat changing sets i came up with these numbers-

crit with shadow- 14047

crit with apprentice- 13847

apprentice is lower then shadow.

then i put on my normal infused helm, as the shadow with 7 divines comes out to 13.68 and the game rounds this number down to just 13% anyways

i did the same thing on my stamblade. same set up, no stat changing sets or weapon abilities, with 19% into precise strikes and an assassination ability slotted-

cirts with dizzying swing and warrior, as i did not want to use surprise attack, i get 20366

full log here-

normal hits for 11378.


crits from the shadow, 20515 here-

full log here-

normal hits for 10685.

if you look at this, you will see that crits do not hit for more with the apprentice or the warrior. though you will probably get more dps with the higher noncrits to make up for it, though enchants do not get the boost from warrior but they do from the shadow.

Thats insightful, and weird at the same time, because the last time i tried it, it wasnt the case. I'll test it again and then get back to you on it.

@Masel92
For me Shadow critted for 17 DMG more.

It says a lot how useless this mundus stone is.

If I would be a stam character with Medium Armor with Weapon Damage bonuses, or even slotted Flawless Dawnkbreaker or random Fighters Guild Ability, Warrior would crit already for more.
The previous guy didn't include in tests Major Brutality, what you would obviously have up 100% of the time in every challening content, where taking those two mundus stones under a consideration would make any sense.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

@gethemshauna "The previous guy didn't include in tests Major Brutality" becuase it is a percent amp. and would increase both the shadow and the apprentice by the same amount. see here-

same set up as before, i am wearing 5 gold divines julianos, 5 gold Ineffable aether and mismatched monster helms, both gold divines. (kena shoulder and neriteth helm if that matter to you.) the reason i choose these sets is because i wanted consistent results.

i have 44 cp into eldborn, giving me 17% crit hit damage from that, i also have Merciless Resolve on my bar, to activate the Hemorrhage passive, giving me 10% more crit hit damage.

i did the tests, again, with major sorcery up from a pot, the shadow has crits of 15138-

full log here-

normal hits for 7967

the apprentice, with major sorcery, is 15015-

full log here-

normal hits for 8483

i have a difference of 123

again, you see that on my tests, shadow crits for more, so when people say apprentice crits for more, they are wrong, but the base would more then make up for it. at a certain point. but keep in mind shadow would impact damaging enchants, apprentice doesn't.

@gethemshauna i am curious what your build looks like if shadow did more crit for more then , like did you not use gold divines armor? and why is major ward and resolve on your test?

If I would be a stam character with Medium Armor with Weapon Damage bonuses, or even slotted Flawless Dawnkbreaker or random Fighters Guild Ability, Warrior would crit already for more.

if you look at my stamblade test, you can see this is just barely true, i have evil hunter slotted and flawless, warrior crit for more.

same test, 7 gold full divines.

shadow crits for 22733

full log-

norm hits for 11840

warroir crits for 22739

full log

norm hit for 12703

WrathOfInnos

But isn’t Lady intended to be the counter for Lover? So they need to remain balanced. I supposed Lover could also be buffed to around 4K Pen, but this could result in some complaints in PVP, especially if shields benefit from resistances. It might actually be good for PVE though, to help raise the floor. None of the top groups run Lover anyway, so a buff only helps those that aren’t optimized for 100% enemy resistance debuffs.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

But isn’t Lady intended to be the counter for Lover? So they need to remain balanced. I supposed Lover could also be buffed to around 4K Pen, but this could result in some complaints in PVP, especially if shields benefit from resistances. It might actually be good for PVE though, to help raise the floor. None of the top groups run Lover anyway, so a buff only helps those that aren’t optimized for 100% enemy resistance debuffs.

Yes it is, I have pointed this out in this thread and linked to the patch notes where ZOS say as much. But just in case they were missed, here they are again-


https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4420099#Comment_4420099

We’ve also standardized Mundus Stone values against other systems that grant similar bonuses, such as enchantments or Item Sets, so you can customize the stats you care about in each system without needing to worry about weighing the exact values against each other. Mundus Stones are now equivalent to 1.85x of an Item Set bonus

Similar to how Mundus Stones were changed, Weapon Trait values have also been rebalanced with a focus on improving overall diversity. Weapon Trait values have a 1:1 pairing with the effectiveness of Mundus Stones; this means if you want armor, you can get the Lady Mundus Stone or a Defending weapon and they will both give you 2752 armor.

jypcy

For the record, I run the lady on pretty much all of my tanks all of the time. Not saying it’s the most effective stone I could use, but it is being used.

getemshauna

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@gethemshauna "The previous guy didn't include in tests Major Brutality" becuase it is a percent amp. and would increase both the shadow and the apprentice by the same amount. see here-

same set up as before, i am wearing 5 gold divines julianos, 5 gold Ineffable aether and mismatched monster helms, both gold divines. (kena shoulder and neriteth helm if that matter to you.) the reason i choose these sets is because i wanted consistent results.

i have 44 cp into eldborn, giving me 17% crit hit damage from that, i also have Merciless Resolve on my bar, to activate the Hemorrhage passive, giving me 10% more crit hit damage.

i did the tests, again, with major sorcery up from a pot, the shadow has crits of 15138-

full log here-

normal hits for 7967

the apprentice, with major sorcery, is 15015-

full log here-

normal hits for 8483

i have a difference of 123

again, you see that on my tests, shadow crits for more, so when people say apprentice crits for more, they are wrong, but the base would more then make up for it. at a certain point. but keep in mind shadow would impact damaging enchants, apprentice doesn't.

@gethemshauna i am curious what your build looks like if shadow did more crit for more then , like did you not use gold divines armor? and why is major ward and resolve on your test?

If I would be a stam character with Medium Armor with Weapon Damage bonuses, or even slotted Flawless Dawnkbreaker or random Fighters Guild Ability, Warrior would crit already for more.

if you look at my stamblade test, you can see this is just barely true, i have evil hunter slotted and flawless, warrior crit for more.

same test, 7 gold full divines.

shadow crits for 22733

full log-

norm hits for 11840

warroir crits for 22739

full log

norm hit for 12703

Hey man.
Yes, slotting Weapon Damage boosting skills just proved my point that you are able to crit more with Warrior mundus Stone, on top of Major Brutality, what directly increase benefit you gain for this specific Mundus Stone. In PvE and PvP contents you would have Major Brutality active all of the time, what already makes your crits higher than Mundus Stone dedicated to the crit damage. On non-crit hits, Shadow mundus stone doesn't work at all, what clearly means it's absolutely useless. Even if shadow would crit for a little bit more than Warrior, getting it in any scenario doesn't make sense, same with Apprentice.

I used 3x Infused on Big Pieces, 4x Divines on small Pieces. Gear: Mother's Sorrow Frontbar, Julianos Both bars, 1x Slimecraw, 1x Zaan. Major Ward and Resolve is there because right before using Funnel Health I popped Shadowy Disguise to make sure it will crit, so it turned on Shadow Barrier passive what gives resistances, since Shadowy DIsguise comes from Shadow Tree. Does it even matter?

I had 10% NB Passive active and 61 points in Elfborn. No room for "unconsistent" results in my test.

If Apprentice crits for 17 DMG less than Shadow, but normal hits are way stronger than Shadow ones (where this mundus Stone isn't even active at all), it clearly means, SHADOW MUNDUS STONE IS USELESS AND NEEDS TO BE REWORKED. That's my point. You even proved it yourself critting more with Warrior and Major Brutality than with Mundus stone dedicated to critical damage hits.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

gethemshauna wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@gethemshauna "The previous guy didn't include in tests Major Brutality" becuase it is a percent amp. and would increase both the shadow and the apprentice by the same amount. see here-

same set up as before, i am wearing 5 gold divines julianos, 5 gold Ineffable aether and mismatched monster helms, both gold divines. (kena shoulder and neriteth helm if that matter to you.) the reason i choose these sets is because i wanted consistent results.

i have 44 cp into eldborn, giving me 17% crit hit damage from that, i also have Merciless Resolve on my bar, to activate the Hemorrhage passive, giving me 10% more crit hit damage.

i did the tests, again, with major sorcery up from a pot, the shadow has crits of 15138-

full log here-

normal hits for 7967

the apprentice, with major sorcery, is 15015-

full log here-

normal hits for 8483

i have a difference of 123

again, you see that on my tests, shadow crits for more, so when people say apprentice crits for more, they are wrong, but the base would more then make up for it. at a certain point. but keep in mind shadow would impact damaging enchants, apprentice doesn't.

@gethemshauna i am curious what your build looks like if shadow did more crit for more then , like did you not use gold divines armor? and why is major ward and resolve on your test?

If I would be a stam character with Medium Armor with Weapon Damage bonuses, or even slotted Flawless Dawnkbreaker or random Fighters Guild Ability, Warrior would crit already for more.

if you look at my stamblade test, you can see this is just barely true, i have evil hunter slotted and flawless, warrior crit for more.

same test, 7 gold full divines.

shadow crits for 22733

full log-

norm hits for 11840

warroir crits for 22739

full log

norm hit for 12703

Hey man.
Yes, slotting Weapon Damage boosting skills just proved my point that you are able to crit more with Warrior mundus Stone, on top of Major Brutality, what directly increase benefit you gain for this specific Mundus Stone. In PvE and PvP contents you would have Major Brutality active all of the time, what already makes your crits higher than Mundus Stone dedicated to the crit damage. On non-crit hits, Shadow mundus stone doesn't work at all, what clearly means it's absolutely useless. Even if shadow would crit for a little bit more than Warrior, getting it in any scenario doesn't make sense, same with Apprentice.

I used 3x Infused on Big Pieces, 4x Divines on small Pieces. Gear: Mother's Sorrow Frontbar, Julianos Both bars, 1x Slimecraw, 1x Zaan. Major Ward and Resolve is there because right before using Funnel Health I popped Shadowy Disguise to make sure it will crit, so it turned on Shadow Barrier passive what gives resistances, since Shadowy DIsguise comes from Shadow Tree. Does it even matter?

I had 10% NB Passive active and 61 points in Elfborn. No room for "unconsistent" results in my test.

If Apprentice crits for 17 DMG less than Shadow, but normal hits are way stronger than Shadow ones (where this mundus Stone isn't even active at all), it clearly means, SHADOW MUNDUS STONE IS USELESS AND NEEDS TO BE REWORKED. That's my point. You even proved it yourself critting more with Warrior and Major Brutality than with Mundus stone dedicated to critical damage hits.

Hey man, why you being so aggressive? Do you have a personal grudge that the Shadow is not as good as apprentice or warrior at crit hit damage, sometimes? You really need to pump the brakes with the tough talk.


As to why we have different results, which we do, you are testing stuff different then me and you seem to have been offended when I was trying to figure out why we did, in fact, have different results. This is what is "unconsistent" (not sure why you used this word here and had it in quotes). I was actually testing the mundai at full strength and you weren't. You used 3 infused. This results in shadow only providing 11% crit increase. If you did the tests like I did, using 7 divines(even though this results in 13.725% and the game rounds down to simply 13%) your results would be similar to mine. The crits from shadow would be higher then apprentice. Now I can understand why you have 3 infused, the 520 base magic you get from that is worth more then the 53 base spell damage from 3 divines of apprentice because there are more percentage amps to max magic then spell damage. The real test would be 1 infused big piece and divines, this results in 13% for shadow and you get the 174 more base magic from infused, vs the 3 infused with 4 apprentice divines. That is the optimal for both mundai. This is what needs to be tested now.

I also did more then just one attack to provide a log of the consistent damage I was doing. So you could see the baseline damage as well. That is why it matters why you had the major buffs on. To have more data. And if you were attacking from stealth, nightblades have a passive that give you 10% more weapon and spell damage. This would skew the results, again, since I did not attack from stealth. So to have the best most consistent result, it matters.

My tests with the warrior indicated that you need to have at least 43% on the 362 weapon damage to have your weapon crits be higher if only by the slimmest of margins. With the apprentice, using full divines of course, to have everything consistent, you will not get that.


And keep in mind when repling that I have already said this-

if you look at this, you will see that crits do not hit for more with the apprentice or the warrior. though you will probably get more dps with the higher noncrits to make up for it, though enchants do not get the boost from warrior but they do from the shadow.

And this-

again, you see that on my tests, shadow crits for more, so when people say apprentice crits for more, they are wrong, but the base would more then make up for it. at a certain point. but keep in mind shadow would impact damaging enchants, apprentice doesn't.

I am not debating whether or not you will get more DPS with shadow. I am saying that with a full strength divines, you get more crit hit damage then full divines apprentice. And only with certain buffs on weapon damage, you get a little more (less then a fraction of percent) then the shadow.

getemshauna

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@gethemshauna "The previous guy didn't include in tests Major Brutality" becuase it is a percent amp. and would increase both the shadow and the apprentice by the same amount. see here-

same set up as before, i am wearing 5 gold divines julianos, 5 gold Ineffable aether and mismatched monster helms, both gold divines. (kena shoulder and neriteth helm if that matter to you.) the reason i choose these sets is because i wanted consistent results.

i have 44 cp into eldborn, giving me 17% crit hit damage from that, i also have Merciless Resolve on my bar, to activate the Hemorrhage passive, giving me 10% more crit hit damage.

i did the tests, again, with major sorcery up from a pot, the shadow has crits of 15138-

full log here-

normal hits for 7967

the apprentice, with major sorcery, is 15015-

full log here-

normal hits for 8483

i have a difference of 123

again, you see that on my tests, shadow crits for more, so when people say apprentice crits for more, they are wrong, but the base would more then make up for it. at a certain point. but keep in mind shadow would impact damaging enchants, apprentice doesn't.

@gethemshauna i am curious what your build looks like if shadow did more crit for more then , like did you not use gold divines armor? and why is major ward and resolve on your test?

If I would be a stam character with Medium Armor with Weapon Damage bonuses, or even slotted Flawless Dawnkbreaker or random Fighters Guild Ability, Warrior would crit already for more.

if you look at my stamblade test, you can see this is just barely true, i have evil hunter slotted and flawless, warrior crit for more.

same test, 7 gold full divines.

shadow crits for 22733

full log-

norm hits for 11840

warroir crits for 22739

full log

norm hit for 12703

Hey man.
Yes, slotting Weapon Damage boosting skills just proved my point that you are able to crit more with Warrior mundus Stone, on top of Major Brutality, what directly increase benefit you gain for this specific Mundus Stone. In PvE and PvP contents you would have Major Brutality active all of the time, what already makes your crits higher than Mundus Stone dedicated to the crit damage. On non-crit hits, Shadow mundus stone doesn't work at all, what clearly means it's absolutely useless. Even if shadow would crit for a little bit more than Warrior, getting it in any scenario doesn't make sense, same with Apprentice.

I used 3x Infused on Big Pieces, 4x Divines on small Pieces. Gear: Mother's Sorrow Frontbar, Julianos Both bars, 1x Slimecraw, 1x Zaan. Major Ward and Resolve is there because right before using Funnel Health I popped Shadowy Disguise to make sure it will crit, so it turned on Shadow Barrier passive what gives resistances, since Shadowy DIsguise comes from Shadow Tree. Does it even matter?

I had 10% NB Passive active and 61 points in Elfborn. No room for "unconsistent" results in my test.

If Apprentice crits for 17 DMG less than Shadow, but normal hits are way stronger than Shadow ones (where this mundus Stone isn't even active at all), it clearly means, SHADOW MUNDUS STONE IS USELESS AND NEEDS TO BE REWORKED. That's my point. You even proved it yourself critting more with Warrior and Major Brutality than with Mundus stone dedicated to critical damage hits.

Hey man, why you being so aggressive? Do you have a personal grudge that the Shadow is not as good as apprentice or warrior at crit hit damage, sometimes? You really need to pump the brakes with the tough talk.


As to why we have different results, which we do, you are testing stuff different then me and you seem to have been offended when I was trying to figure out why we did, in fact, have different results. This is what is "unconsistent" (not sure why you used this word here and had it in quotes). I was actually testing the mundai at full strength and you weren't. You used 3 infused. This results in shadow only providing 11% crit increase. If you did the tests like I did, using 7 divines(even though this results in 13.725% and the game rounds down to simply 13%) your results would be similar to mine. The crits from shadow would be higher then apprentice. Now I can understand why you have 3 infused, the 520 base magic you get from that is worth more then the 53 base spell damage from 3 divines of apprentice because there are more percentage amps to max magic then spell damage. The real test would be 1 infused big piece and divines, this results in 13% for shadow and you get the 174 more base magic from infused, vs the 3 infused with 4 apprentice divines. That is the optimal for both mundai. This is what needs to be tested now.

I also did more then just one attack to provide a log of the consistent damage I was doing. So you could see the baseline damage as well. That is why it matters why you had the major buffs on. To have more data. And if you were attacking from stealth, nightblades have a passive that give you 10% more weapon and spell damage. This would skew the results, again, since I did not attack from stealth. So to have the best most consistent result, it matters.

My tests with the warrior indicated that you need to have at least 43% on the 362 weapon damage to have your weapon crits be higher if only by the slimmest of margins. With the apprentice, using full divines of course, to have everything consistent, you will not get that.


And keep in mind when repling that I have already said this-

if you look at this, you will see that crits do not hit for more with the apprentice or the warrior. though you will probably get more dps with the higher noncrits to make up for it, though enchants do not get the boost from warrior but they do from the shadow.

And this-

again, you see that on my tests, shadow crits for more, so when people say apprentice crits for more, they are wrong, but the base would more then make up for it. at a certain point. but keep in mind shadow would impact damaging enchants, apprentice doesn't.

I am not debating whether or not you will get more DPS with shadow. I am saying that with a full strength divines, you get more crit hit damage then full divines apprentice. And only with certain buffs on weapon damage, you get a little more (less then a fraction of percent) then the shadow.

I am not aggresive Summarizing: With optimised PvE Stamina build Warrior crits more, in magicka case Apprentice crits barely less, but it doesn't matter if we take under consideration non-crit hits what are crucial Sorry if you felt I am aggresive to you.

I did use 3 infused, that's true, but at the same time my Apprentice wasn't at full effectivness aswell I used 3 infused because that's what optimized PvE End-game build has

I used only one attack, because we were testing an actual CRIT DAMAGE. Where apprentice lost by 17 dmg. This screenshot itself proves why Shadow is underperforming (In terms of sustained DPS, obviously. And only it matters)

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

gethemshauna wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@gethemshauna "The previous guy didn't include in tests Major Brutality" becuase it is a percent amp. and would increase both the shadow and the apprentice by the same amount. see here-

same set up as before, i am wearing 5 gold divines julianos, 5 gold Ineffable aether and mismatched monster helms, both gold divines. (kena shoulder and neriteth helm if that matter to you.) the reason i choose these sets is because i wanted consistent results.

i have 44 cp into eldborn, giving me 17% crit hit damage from that, i also have Merciless Resolve on my bar, to activate the Hemorrhage passive, giving me 10% more crit hit damage.

i did the tests, again, with major sorcery up from a pot, the shadow has crits of 15138-

full log here-

normal hits for 7967

the apprentice, with major sorcery, is 15015-

full log here-

normal hits for 8483

i have a difference of 123

again, you see that on my tests, shadow crits for more, so when people say apprentice crits for more, they are wrong, but the base would more then make up for it. at a certain point. but keep in mind shadow would impact damaging enchants, apprentice doesn't.

@gethemshauna i am curious what your build looks like if shadow did more crit for more then , like did you not use gold divines armor? and why is major ward and resolve on your test?

If I would be a stam character with Medium Armor with Weapon Damage bonuses, or even slotted Flawless Dawnkbreaker or random Fighters Guild Ability, Warrior would crit already for more.

if you look at my stamblade test, you can see this is just barely true, i have evil hunter slotted and flawless, warrior crit for more.

same test, 7 gold full divines.

shadow crits for 22733

full log-

norm hits for 11840

warroir crits for 22739

full log

norm hit for 12703

Hey man.
Yes, slotting Weapon Damage boosting skills just proved my point that you are able to crit more with Warrior mundus Stone, on top of Major Brutality, what directly increase benefit you gain for this specific Mundus Stone. In PvE and PvP contents you would have Major Brutality active all of the time, what already makes your crits higher than Mundus Stone dedicated to the crit damage. On non-crit hits, Shadow mundus stone doesn't work at all, what clearly means it's absolutely useless. Even if shadow would crit for a little bit more than Warrior, getting it in any scenario doesn't make sense, same with Apprentice.

I used 3x Infused on Big Pieces, 4x Divines on small Pieces. Gear: Mother's Sorrow Frontbar, Julianos Both bars, 1x Slimecraw, 1x Zaan. Major Ward and Resolve is there because right before using Funnel Health I popped Shadowy Disguise to make sure it will crit, so it turned on Shadow Barrier passive what gives resistances, since Shadowy DIsguise comes from Shadow Tree. Does it even matter?

I had 10% NB Passive active and 61 points in Elfborn. No room for "unconsistent" results in my test.

If Apprentice crits for 17 DMG less than Shadow, but normal hits are way stronger than Shadow ones (where this mundus Stone isn't even active at all), it clearly means, SHADOW MUNDUS STONE IS USELESS AND NEEDS TO BE REWORKED. That's my point. You even proved it yourself critting more with Warrior and Major Brutality than with Mundus stone dedicated to critical damage hits.

Hey man, why you being so aggressive? Do you have a personal grudge that the Shadow is not as good as apprentice or warrior at crit hit damage, sometimes? You really need to pump the brakes with the tough talk.


As to why we have different results, which we do, you are testing stuff different then me and you seem to have been offended when I was trying to figure out why we did, in fact, have different results. This is what is "unconsistent" (not sure why you used this word here and had it in quotes). I was actually testing the mundai at full strength and you weren't. You used 3 infused. This results in shadow only providing 11% crit increase. If you did the tests like I did, using 7 divines(even though this results in 13.725% and the game rounds down to simply 13%) your results would be similar to mine. The crits from shadow would be higher then apprentice. Now I can understand why you have 3 infused, the 520 base magic you get from that is worth more then the 53 base spell damage from 3 divines of apprentice because there are more percentage amps to max magic then spell damage. The real test would be 1 infused big piece and divines, this results in 13% for shadow and you get the 174 more base magic from infused, vs the 3 infused with 4 apprentice divines. That is the optimal for both mundai. This is what needs to be tested now.

I also did more then just one attack to provide a log of the consistent damage I was doing. So you could see the baseline damage as well. That is why it matters why you had the major buffs on. To have more data. And if you were attacking from stealth, nightblades have a passive that give you 10% more weapon and spell damage. This would skew the results, again, since I did not attack from stealth. So to have the best most consistent result, it matters.

My tests with the warrior indicated that you need to have at least 43% on the 362 weapon damage to have your weapon crits be higher if only by the slimmest of margins. With the apprentice, using full divines of course, to have everything consistent, you will not get that.


And keep in mind when repling that I have already said this-

if you look at this, you will see that crits do not hit for more with the apprentice or the warrior. though you will probably get more dps with the higher noncrits to make up for it, though enchants do not get the boost from warrior but they do from the shadow.

And this-

again, you see that on my tests, shadow crits for more, so when people say apprentice crits for more, they are wrong, but the base would more then make up for it. at a certain point. but keep in mind shadow would impact damaging enchants, apprentice doesn't.

I am not debating whether or not you will get more DPS with shadow. I am saying that with a full strength divines, you get more crit hit damage then full divines apprentice. And only with certain buffs on weapon damage, you get a little more (less then a fraction of percent) then the shadow.

I am not aggresive Summarizing: With optimised PvE Stamina build Warrior crits more, in magicka case Apprentice crits barely less, but it doesn't matter if we take under consideration non-crit hits what are crucial Sorry if you felt I am aggresive to you.

I did use 3 infused, that's true, but at the same time my Apprentice wasn't at full effectivness aswell I used 3 infused because that's what optimized PvE End-game build has

I used only one attack, because we were testing an actual CRIT DAMAGE. Where apprentice lost by 17 dmg. This screenshot itself proves why Shadow is underperforming (In terms of sustained DPS, obviously. And only it matters)

All right, we agree on most things and here is the thing though, all I am saying is that the crit hit damage from shadow is more then apprentice and warrior (unless you have more then 43% amps). I have shown this to be true. Every step of the way, I have said it is not a dps increase to use shadow. You can't say with obsolete certainty that shadow does less crit hit damage. In normal play and unless you have very specific buffs, shadow does more crit hit damage. I have shown you all my tests. I have explained my methodology. What I am going to test next is what I have stated already, 1 infused and 6 divines with shadow vs 3 infused and 4 divines with apprentice. Which is the optimal way to use both mundai. And there is the fact that enchantments get buffed by shadow and not the damage mundai, so if you want to optimize damage for them, shadow is an option.

I am absolutely with you that the Shadow needs a buff. Going by what ZOS has said, that a five piece is 2.31* a set bonus and a mundai is 1.85 of a set bonus, using the only set bonus that gives a crit hit damage increase and that does not use minor force, archer mind, which gives up to a 15% increase, that would give shadow a value of 12%, as 15/2.31 is 6.5 and 6.5*1.85 is close to 12. This is the old value and would have a value of 18% with full divines. Seems like the most logical thing to me.

I would actually change the healing done percentage as well. Since by ZOSs own rules, 2% healing done on an item set piece is not even close. 10/1.85 is 5.4. the healing done on a set piece ought to be 5% would make it more valuable. There are no sets (in the game that drops now, there was a 3 piece set, relics of the Physician, which was 5%) with healing done as a 5 piece, except for healers habit but that is a minor buff, of 8%. I would change that set to 2.31 of 5% or 12%. You might see healers use it then. You also need to buff powered to match the mundus, from 9% to 10%.

From there, you have to change the healing received and since there is no healing received mundus but there are set bonuses with it, 4% for that and there are 3 five piece sets that increase healing received, sanctuary, 12%, twilight's embrace, 10%, and order of diagna, 8% that is minor vitality so we will ignore that one. I would say buff the item set bonus to 5% and twilight's embrace to 12%, to keep things consistent. Or if you want to keep healing received double healing done, make it 10% and twilight's embrace to 23%, I would leave sanctuary at 12% though, since it applies to 11 other people around you. That might be too much though.