The Real Balance Problem in PVE

Germakochi

I think the devs are deliberately ignoring something. They CANNOT bring out mechanics so that stam melee players are needed. The last two year there was NO content in which stam players felt needed. Every achievement and new hard end game content is easier with a Mag class, especially MagBlade. We all were forced to roll MagBlades so that we can try playing the new raids on Vet because our stam toons weren't welcome. Now Mag toons will have a harder time also because their shields have a cast time which wasn't asked for. You don't have to make it harder for Mag. You have to make stam more useful. It won't matter if you keep buffing stamina so they do more damage because your mechanics are anti-melee. You really should focus on that if you don't want to lose PVE players that main a stam toon and enjoy playing it. We don't enjoy being forced to play Mag classes just so we can do the new content. FIX THE MECHANICS.

You can call me salty or say L2P all you want. I am very close to quitting the game because I don't even enjoy it because I have to play something that I don't enjoy. If you care about us, bring out mechanics that makes stam and mag or melee and ranged classes feel both needed. It shouldn't be that hard. I can't believe it's that hard. You are just deliberately ignoring it. I hope there are other people feeling the same way and something gets changed in the future, with or without me.

starkerealm

I don't think it's that. Though you're close. I think they heard people whining that was impossible to clear content without 8 mag DPS for ages and got tired of it.

I think they also saw how shield stacking trivialized damage spikes that were supposed to keep players moving and aware of their surroundings, so that the way the community was playing wasn't intended.

Stam's or shieldless magicka is pretty easy when you get the feel for it. I mean, I've got a shieldless Mageslayer. So, it's not that hard. But, shields made it trivial. So, everyone chased that.

VaranisArano

ZOS isn't forcing players to do anything. ZOS just changes the meta.

Players chasing the meta of completing content as efficiently as possible are forcing other players to reroll and chase the meta carrot.

And ZOS is content to let players chase the carrot because rerolling equals more time spent playing the game.

Smasherx74

It appears to me running at least 2 stamina players in veteran is the norm for a somewhat optimal raid just looking to grind some gear. I'm not sure whether or not this post is directly addressing the viability of optimal raid groups, or if it's addressing some L2P DPS issue OP is having with stamina characters. If it's the former then I can't exactly speak on the very top of veteran raids, but just in general you want a stamina or two in your raid, but you definitely don't want too many because they'll drop each others DPS. As for the latter, L2P. I easily pull upward 40-50k with stamplar which has been consistently stomped on by devs because I guess they hate stamplars.

starkerealm

Actually, the real balance issue is a little more insidious. Player DPS spikes absurdly with skill and experience. It creates a situation where you can land either as "one of the best," where the only thing to do is endgame group content, PvP, and vMA, or you end up in a situation where all vet content is effectively locked off, and overland content is reasonably balanced.

Once you cross this gulf, there's no going back. The only thing both groups have is housing.

It's a real problem. There's overland for vets, there's no intermediate content for novices. (Maybe, normal trials, and some vet dungeons, but it tends to be a one way street.)

Germakochi

Yeah but you don't even have to use shields in Cloudrest because it's oblivion damage. You just can't focus orbs and creepers like the mag toons. You can't do damage in vAS because you are melee. That's what I'm talking about. The last two raids are just unplayable with 4 stam/4 mag constellation like the other raids. And I think it's a trend. Most of the end game content is much harder with a melee stam toon. I don't know how it will be now that mag classes can't use shield that effectively but yeah. I feel like they should make melee and ranged feel needed in the raids. At least that's my opinion. And I don't even care that it's harder to do but we don't get rewarded for it. It is harder and we have to suck it up. It tires me.

starkerealm

Smasherx74 wrote: »

It appears to me running at least 2 stamina players in veteran is the norm for a somewhat optimal raid just looking to grind some gear. I'm not sure whether or not this post is directly addressing the viability of optimal raid groups, or if it's addressing some L2P DPS issue OP is having with stamina characters. If it's the former then I can't exactly speak on the very top of veteran raids, but just in general you want a stamina or two in your raid, but you definitely don't want too many because they'll drop each others DPS. As for the latter, L2P. I easily pull upward 40-50k with stamplar which has been consistently stomped on by devs because I guess they hate stamplars.

I've spent about a year and a half watching endgame groups getting really picky about letting Stam builds into endgame at all. Maybe this is jaundiced, but most of the vAS runs I've had access to had a hard, "no stam" rule. Which, isn't about mechanics, or the content, just it's easier to shield up and ignore mechanics than it is to run without shields. As a result, they just don't want to deal with players who they think won't pass muster. So, they don't give them the chance at all.

I cleared it on my Breton Stamblade pre-Summerset, so, yeah, this is entirely doable. It's just a community bias.

Germakochi

It is doable

Smasherx74 wrote: »

It appears to me running at least 2 stamina players in veteran is the norm for a somewhat optimal raid just looking to grind some gear. I'm not sure whether or not this post is directly addressing the viability of optimal raid groups, or if it's addressing some L2P DPS issue OP is having with stamina characters. If it's the former then I can't exactly speak on the very top of veteran raids, but just in general you want a stamina or two in your raid, but you definitely don't want too many because they'll drop each others DPS. As for the latter, L2P. I easily pull upward 40-50k with stamplar which has been consistently stomped on by devs because I guess they hate stamplars.

The DPS is not a problem. I can pull upwards to 55k with bubbles and Major Fracture with my stamplar. The problem is that you can't do the mechanics or the mechanics don't let you do your rotation/ do melee damage at all so your DPS suffer. You are basically useless in Cloudrest and AS. Of course you can get carried but that's not what I want. I don't like the direction the game is going and just wanted to say something and see the input of other stam mains.

susmitds

Smasherx74 wrote: »

It appears to me running at least 2 stamina players in veteran is the norm for a somewhat optimal raid just looking to grind some gear. I'm not sure whether or not this post is directly addressing the viability of optimal raid groups, or if it's addressing some L2P DPS issue OP is having with stamina characters. If it's the former then I can't exactly speak on the very top of veteran raids, but just in general you want a stamina or two in your raid, but you definitely don't want too many because they'll drop each others DPS. As for the latter, L2P. I easily pull upward 40-50k with stamplar which has been consistently stomped on by devs because I guess they hate stamplars.

You will see raids with all mag DPS but you won't see raids with all stam DPS. The number of mag DPS is always higher in raids. IMO, that's bad balance right there.

Germakochi

Maybe I should just brave up and make a raid guild where EVERY content will be cleared with an even constellation of Ranged/Melee players. I think the community is biased too much like you said. We don't have any guilds that I know of that wants to put the time and effort to clear these contents with melee players. But I really think that the mechanics are biased and makes it much easier for mag players and that's bad game design imo. It made me hate the game this last year.