"Swift" Jewelry crafting is over performing

Dashmatt

Ranger209 wrote: »

People can run just as fast without swift as they can with it, the floor is higher but the ceiling is the same.

The problem is that the floor is practically touching the ceiling. Three Swift is like having passive Major Expedition, except it stacks with Major Expedition. Add speed pots and it’s 100% uptime, and you don’t have to slot any movement skills, or even sprint.

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

also:
this armor set does the exact same thing

Cowards set.

(5 items) While Sprinting you gain Major Expedition and Major Protection, increasing your Movement Speed and reducing your damage taken by 30%.

Uh, yeah if you only use it to run away from people. You can’t sprint while attacking. All I’m seeing is a 5-piece bonus that is less useful than transmuting 3 jewelry traits. Seems balanced...

I would not be shocked or offended if gold Swift jewelry was reduced to 5%. It would still get used, because movement speed is just that good.

Arthg

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

swift jewelry is Not overperforming.

there is a speed CAP

also:
you can cast "rapid manuvers" does the exact same thing

also:
this armor set does the exact same thing

Cowards set.
(2 items) Adds 1206 Max Health

(3 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery

(4 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery

(5 items) While Sprinting you gain Major Expedition and Major Protection, increasing your Movement Speed and reducing your damage taken by 30%.


swift jewelry is Not overperforming.
please allow people and eso alone and allowed to play without all these Massive amounts of NERF Requests constantly.

right now as allways every class in both sneak speeds as well as running speeds is like crawling inMUD.
i hate it and i know for a fact im not alone in that.
please stop asking for speeds to be nerfed.

Fallacious comparison.
Rapids costs 8K stamina, and the buff disappears when you deal damage.
Coward requires you to sprint, which stops your regen, and prevents you from firing abilities.
This means that both examples provide a powerful buff under stringent conditions - as it should be.

Swift is both an offensive and defensive stackable permabuff - for a ridiculously cheap trade-off.

It's crazy OP.
It's pay-to-win cheese.

The one single indicator that this is the case is that everyone mildly into PvP has at least one piece of jewelry with the Swift trait.

Gilvoth

30% the max, all 3 of those thing only allow 30% just like the jewelry does.
the cap is 30%.
jewelry is nothing new to that equation.

prototypefb

leave swift alone, every stamina class should be using it in pvp anyways, 1-2 at least

Biro123

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

30% the max, all 3 of those thing only allow 30% just like the jewelry does.
the cap is 30%.
jewelry is nothing new to that equation.

The two posts above explained exactly what's new.

I'm now convinced you're just a troll..

Btw, does your 'don't nerf' stance apply to shield-stacking?

Gilvoth

there is nothing "new" about those swift traits.
i will explain it again just to make it clear that those swift traits and the armor set and speed casting skills are all the same.
take a look ...

there is a speed CAP

also:
you can cast "rapid manuvers" does the exact same thing

also:
this armor set does the exact same thing

Cowards set.
(2 items) Adds 1206 Max Health

(3 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery

(4 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery

(5 items) While Sprinting you gain Major Expedition and Major Protection, increasing your Movement Speed and reducing your damage taken by 30%.


please stop asking for speeds to be nerfed.

Gilvoth

they all give 30% speed increase.
swift trait is the exat same thing.
its just speed increase and its Not new, those have been around for a long time, some of them for Years, like the manuvers 30% increase has been here now for over 5 years.

Dashmatt

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

they all give 30% speed increase.
swift trait is the exat same thing.
its just speed increase and its Not new, those have been around for a long time, some of them for Years, like the manuvers 30% increase has been here now for over 5 years.

Swift is very different than everything you’ve listed. Most notably it has very little cost, and can be used offensively. And it stacks with everything else.

Biro123 wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

30% the max, all 3 of those thing only allow 30% just like the jewelry does.
the cap is 30%.
jewelry is nothing new to that equation.

The two posts above explained exactly what's new.

I'm now convinced you're just a troll..

Seems likely...

Lexxypwns

Saying swift has little cost is a lie. You lose a lot of damage running swift

Elong

You know, if someone is using Swift, mainly as an escape mechanism, you don't HAVE to chase him/her. You all know this right?

Emma_Overload

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Every single Swift jewel can be countered by another Swift jewel. If you're not willing to sacrifice Arcane or Robust, that's your problem.

Not necessarily true. If the game worked perfectly this would be true. But because the game has issues calculating and registering clint position vs server position, you can be wearing swift right on the tailbone of someone also wearing swift and you will not land a single melee attack because your not "in range".

This may be true, but targeting is a totally separate issue, in my opinion. By all means, petition ZOS to fix the issue you've described!

Iki

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Saying swift has little cost is a lie. You lose a lot of damage running swift

And if quite many players in pvp consider that swift is worth losing lots of damage, don`t you think it`s overperforming? Swift in it`s current state is bit ridiculous imo. They should nerf speed it gives to 5% then add sustain element to it, like, well-fitted trait. 1 x swift: 5% movement speed 5% cost reduction to sprint and roll-dodge.

Lexxypwns

Iki wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Saying swift has little cost is a lie. You lose a lot of damage running swift

And if quite many players in pvp consider that swift is worth losing lots of damage, don`t you think it`s overperforming? Swift in it`s current state is bit ridiculous imo. They should nerf speed it gives to 5% then add sustain element to it, like, well-fitted trait. 1 x swift: 5% movement speed 5% cost reduction to sprint and roll-dodge.

No, because it benefits one specific playstyle and not every situation. If you’re at the end of a 1vX and in comes a good player and he’s running a gap closer and 3x Infused damage glyphs then you lose because he will put you on the defensive first and will be able to keep you there with higher damage

Iki

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Iki wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Saying swift has little cost is a lie. You lose a lot of damage running swift

And if quite many players in pvp consider that swift is worth losing lots of damage, don`t you think it`s overperforming? Swift in it`s current state is bit ridiculous imo. They should nerf speed it gives to 5% then add sustain element to it, like, well-fitted trait. 1 x swift: 5% movement speed 5% cost reduction to sprint and roll-dodge.

No, because it benefits one specific playstyle and not every situation. If you’re at the end of a 1vX and in comes a good player and he’s running a gap closer and 3x Infused damage glyphs then you lose because he will put you on the defensive first and will be able to keep you there with higher damage

I can see where you are coming from, and I agree that swift isn`t equally good choice for all build/playstyles, but I stll believe it`s overperforming trait. Regarding your 1vsX example, they say good players usually end 1vsXing anyways.. If he used 3x swift instead of 3x infused he could just keep up with you without wasting time, resources and skill-slot to gapcloser, gapclosers tend to deal quite low damage.. The way I see it, he would be even more dangerous to you that way.

Biro123

I find even ranged targeting to be buggy enough to be unable to get every gap-closer off on a swift-user.

And when they do, you can't hit with a follow-up snare since they're already out of range by the time you reach their position..

Other games have had bug problems with positioning and lag in the past. ESO has always been slow enough (and arguably heavy attacks long enough range) for it to not be a problem. Swift changes all that,

Problem is, though, It isn't just about the swift-user trying to escape - I'm not too bothered with that. What is broken is the swift user staying in melee, but jinking around that much you simply cannot hit them back with a targeted attack. The latency simply cannot keep up with combat at those speeds.
It kind of acts like a super-duper-major--major-evasion - and it shouldn't..

WrathOfInnos

Jewelry traits are typically worth more than a 5pc bonus. For example 3X Arcane gives 2610 Max Magicka before multipliers, which is greater than the 2400 from the destruction mastery set (and Arcane gets a 20% multiplier from CPs that DM does not). 3X Infused with weapon damage enchants results in 313 weapon damage before multipliers, slightly higher than Hundings or the average Briarheart bonus.

Minno

Biro123 wrote: »

I find even ranged targeting to be buggy enough to be unable to get every gap-closer off on a swift-user.

And when they do, you can't hit with a follow-up snare since they're already out of range by the time you reach their position..

Other games have had bug problems with positioning and lag in the past. ESO has always been slow enough (and arguably heavy attacks long enough range) for it to not be a problem. Swift changes all that,

Problem is, though, It isn't just about the swift-user trying to escape - I'm not too bothered with that. What is broken is the swift user staying in melee, but jinking around that much you simply cannot hit them back with a targeted attack. The latency simply cannot keep up with combat at those speeds.
It kind of acts like a super-duper-major--major-evasion - and it shouldn't..

Lag shouldn't be the reason game mechanics should be nerfed.

Swift is fine.

Apache_Kid

People keep saying swift is used as an escape tool but it's being used to stay in close melee range while moving around so quickly that it's very difficult to target the swift wearer. It is a very very strong trait but you are trading off a lot of damage to use it so I am kind of torn on it honestly. Not entirely sure what is fair and what isn't. The targeting in this game, especially with abilities like dizzying swing is not so great and swift highlights that fact quite well.

Lexxypwns

Iki wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Iki wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Saying swift has little cost is a lie. You lose a lot of damage running swift

And if quite many players in pvp consider that swift is worth losing lots of damage, don`t you think it`s overperforming? Swift in it`s current state is bit ridiculous imo. They should nerf speed it gives to 5% then add sustain element to it, like, well-fitted trait. 1 x swift: 5% movement speed 5% cost reduction to sprint and roll-dodge.

No, because it benefits one specific playstyle and not every situation. If you’re at the end of a 1vX and in comes a good player and he’s running a gap closer and 3x Infused damage glyphs then you lose because he will put you on the defensive first and will be able to keep you there with higher damage

I can see where you are coming from, and I agree that swift isn`t equally good choice for all build/playstyles, but I stll believe it`s overperforming trait. Regarding your 1vsX example, they say good players usually end 1vsXing anyways.. If he used 3x swift instead of 3x infused he could just keep up with you without wasting time, resources and skill-slot to gapcloser, gapclosers tend to deal quite low damage.. The way I see it, he would be even more dangerous to you that way.

But can you give any actual arguement for it’s over performance other than “I feel like”

I’m out here giving facts about how you lose almost a whole 5pc set bonus worth of damage and you’re telling me your feelings.

Many players use gap closers because it suits their playstyle, Stamden for example, if not using a spin to win build should have gap closer slotted because it has excellent synergy with sub. Gap closers also have great synergy with swift on basically all stam builds, build ult, gap close, burst, use your increased speed to kite. There’s this widespread notion that gap closers are bad, but in reality they’re quite useful.

DUTCH_REAPER

Here we go. Another “nerf it” thread. Sigh.

Iki

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Jewelry traits are typically worth more than a 5pc bonus. For example 3X Arcane gives 2610 Max Magicka before multipliers, which is greater than the 2400 from the destruction mastery set (and Arcane gets a 20% multiplier from CPs that DM does not). 3X Infused with weapon damage enchants results in 313 weapon damage before multipliers, slightly higher than Hundings or the average Briarheart bonus.

Yes. How about we then compare swift to sets aswell, shall we? 3x swift, 30% movement speed is like 3x jailbreaker-set that give minor expedition (+10% speed). 3x infused give only little bit more wep/spell-dmg than hundings/julianos x1, while swift give thrice what set dedicated to increase movement-speed give. When compared to other sets that give speed: Cowards set give major expedition only when sprinting while also giving major protection, but that speed is not up all the time and you pay for it every second with stamina. Fiords legacy give +15% sprint speed and reduce sprint-cost, not up all the time, you pay for speed again. Skooma smuggler give major expedition after drinking potion, I recall it was only for 30 seconds. Sets that increase speed have conditions and costs, and in practise give you far less than 3x swift.. Swift-jewelry is superior option to all those sets.

Chrlynsch

There are 3 options for healthier gameplay:

1. Reduce base movement speed.

2. Improve servers.

3. Nerf Swift.

I wonder what would give first, 1 would upset pvers, 2 would cost a lot of money (my preference), 3 seems like the easiest , cheapest fix that wont upset the majority of players.

Lexxypwns

Chrlynsch wrote: »

There are 3 options for healthier gameplay:

1. Reduce base movement speed.

2. Improve servers.

3. Nerf Swift.

I wonder what would give first, 1 would upset pvers, 2 would cost a lot of money (my preference), 3 seems like the easiest , cheapest fix that wont upset the majority of players.

Only 2 should happen.

Of course, if snares weren’t rampant then we wouldn’t need all these speed buffs and magika and stamina would be more closely in line

WrathOfInnos

Iki wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Jewelry traits are typically worth more than a 5pc bonus. For example 3X Arcane gives 2610 Max Magicka before multipliers, which is greater than the 2400 from the destruction mastery set (and Arcane gets a 20% multiplier from CPs that DM does not). 3X Infused with weapon damage enchants results in 313 weapon damage before multipliers, slightly higher than Hundings or the average Briarheart bonus.

Yes. How about we then compare swift to sets aswell, shall we? 3x swift, 30% movement speed is like 3x jailbreaker-set that give minor expedition (+10% speed). 3x infused give only little bit more wep/spell-dmg than hundings/julianos x1, while swift give thrice what set dedicated to increase movement-speed give. When compared to other sets that give speed: Cowards set give major expedition only when sprinting while also giving major protection, but that speed is not up all the time and you pay for it every second with stamina. Fiords legacy give +15% sprint speed and reduce sprint-cost, not up all the time, you pay for speed again. Skooma smuggler give major expedition after drinking potion, I recall it was only for 30 seconds. Sets that increase speed have conditions and costs, and in practise give you far less than 3x swift.. Swift-jewelry is superior option to all those sets.

If we want to compare to useless sets I can play that game too. 3X Bloodthirsty can add more than 5 times the damage of the Ashen Grip set.

I think a more relevant comparison would be 3X swift vs Vicious Ophidian 5pc, which gives the same 30% speed boost, as well as 8% stamina cost reduction, stamina restore on kills, AND 129 weapon damage.

Ashanne

Lexxypwns wrote: »

@Qbiken 3x robust jewels is about as much stam as hulking Draugr. So no, the damage loss isn’t negligible

870 + 870 + 870 equals 1090 + 1090 + 1090 + 2500 ?

Iki

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Iki wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Iki wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Saying swift has little cost is a lie. You lose a lot of damage running swift

And if quite many players in pvp consider that swift is worth losing lots of damage, don`t you think it`s overperforming? Swift in it`s current state is bit ridiculous imo. They should nerf speed it gives to 5% then add sustain element to it, like, well-fitted trait. 1 x swift: 5% movement speed 5% cost reduction to sprint and roll-dodge.

No, because it benefits one specific playstyle and not every situation. If you’re at the end of a 1vX and in comes a good player and he’s running a gap closer and 3x Infused damage glyphs then you lose because he will put you on the defensive first and will be able to keep you there with higher damage

I can see where you are coming from, and I agree that swift isn`t equally good choice for all build/playstyles, but I stll believe it`s overperforming trait. Regarding your 1vsX example, they say good players usually end 1vsXing anyways.. If he used 3x swift instead of 3x infused he could just keep up with you without wasting time, resources and skill-slot to gapcloser, gapclosers tend to deal quite low damage.. The way I see it, he would be even more dangerous to you that way.

But can you give any actual arguement for it’s over performance other than “I feel like”

I’m out here giving facts about how you lose almost a whole 5pc set bonus worth of damage and you’re telling me your feelings.

Many players use gap closers because it suits their playstyle, Stamden for example, if not using a spin to win build should have gap closer slotted because it has excellent synergy with sub. Gap closers also have great synergy with swift on basically all stam builds, build ult, gap close, burst, use your increased speed to kite. There’s this widespread notion that gap closers are bad, but in reality they’re quite useful.

Scroll up little bit in this thread and read my comment where I answer to WrathOfInnos and compare swift to armor-sets. It`s not just about how I feel, it really looks like swift give far more than sets dedicated to mobility. If 3x infused give little bit more dmg than 1x hundings/julianos, then I would say jailbreaker would be best set to compare swift with, as it`s only set that increase movement speed permanently without conditions. Jailbreaker only give minor expedition, 10% movement speed, that means 3x swift give thrice what that 5pc-set give. Sets that give major expedition have conditions attached that reduce their usefulness.

I do not claim that gapclosers would be bad or useless, no, they can be useful. But in my experience, when you have enough speed you dont necessarily need gapcloser slotted at all. If swift-jewelry give you one more ability-slot because gapcloser isn`t needed that much anymore, don`t you think thats valuable thing? I always run out of slots when making pvp-build and have to drop useful skills, and if theres way to get one more slot, in this case with swift by dropping gapcloser, it`s very valuable for me.

Funny that you also mentioned stamden.. as that happens to be my favorite spec at the moment that I play most of the time now. With only 2x swift jewely and lingering-health + speed potions not many people are faster than me, and it`s extremely rare that I find myself in situation where I would like to have access to gapcloser. And for me it doesn`t really matter what build I play, dual-wield or 2-h front-bar, when moving with high speed I simply don`t need gapcloser.

As you see, I use, enjoy and benefit from swift-trait in its current form, but when I look at it as obejctively as I can, I just have to admit that it`s too good now and overperforming when compared to alternatives.

Arthg

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Saying swift has little cost is a lie. You lose a lot of damage running swift

Define "a lot".

Three robust pieces bring 3*870 = 2610 extra stam, roughly equivalent to 260 WD (not buffable with Minor and Major Brutality or Continuous Attack).
With three infused you lose the stam and get 3*(262-174) = 234 extra buffable WD.

On builds starting at 3.5K WD (in no-CP), this is a tiny loss of damage compared to being virtually untouchable and able to reposition at will.

Swift is O friggin' P, I challenge anyone who's adopted it on a build to give it up again.

Iki

deleted double post

DUTCH_REAPER

There is a speed cap. J/s

Arthg

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

There is a speed cap. J/s

And your point is?

The speed cap can only be reached by sprinting.

IMHO, Swift is OP for the buff it provides in combat, i.e. while NOT sprinting: with a speed pot you're at 160% with full regen and fighting capabilities.
That's insanely powerful: a permanent Major Buff, and one of the best ones at that, without losing any 5-piece bonuses.

Quite frankly, I find it hard to think that people defending the trait as it is are not just defending their cheese tooth and nail.

___

Also, regarding your sig, "STOP CRYING FOR NERFS AND L2P!!":

Well, stop assuming people who disagree with you need to L2P.

Some nerfs have been necessary (or maybe you were in favour of keeping crits on monster sets procs?).

A blanket statement like your sig' is bound to miss the complexities of reality.