2 handed pve dps

JobooAGS

ArchMikem wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

For reference, this is my friend’s 2h 6mil parse with a stam sorc. Used both lover and twice-fanged because the class lacks a source of fracture. I think he’s since broken 50k but I couldn’t immediately find that screenshot.



Not sure what dw stam sorc does with the same stats, and I wouldn’t doubt it’s more. But certainly those kinds of numbers are plenty for any ST fight. Edit: As others have said, you’ll hear 2h is “bad” because it’s not the best, not because it can’t perform well.

I only see 2 2H skills in that parse. Can barely call that a 2H build.

And most pve trial builds only use twin slashes and morphs and maybe deadly cloak and for certain classes shrouded daggers. Spin2win is a bit too expensive and low initial damage for raids, and rapid strikes fell out of meta a while ago. Compared to other ults, lacerate and morphs are lack luster.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

ArchMikem wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

For reference, this is my friend’s 2h 6mil parse with a stam sorc. Used both lover and twice-fanged because the class lacks a source of fracture. I think he’s since broken 50k but I couldn’t immediately find that screenshot.



Not sure what dw stam sorc does with the same stats, and I wouldn’t doubt it’s more. But certainly those kinds of numbers are plenty for any ST fight. Edit: As others have said, you’ll hear 2h is “bad” because it’s not the best, not because it can’t perform well.

I only see 2 2H skills in that parse. Can barely call that a 2H build.

what would a two hander build look like to you?

Strider__Roshin

yurimodin wrote: »

what about the Nord bonus for 2h?

As long as it buffs your damage while on your 2H bar, and not just with 2H abilities.

SquareSausage

Nord 2H racial passive is a bonus to XP gained for 2H skill line, not a bonus to damage.

So, you will level 2H quicker, thats all.

starkerealm

It's easier to dump resources (intentionally or otherwise) using a 2h. This usually gets presented as, "it's harder to sustain," with a 2h, which isn't exactly true, but it is easier to screw up sustain on a 2h.

Also, there's a tempo difference, it's easier to dump a lot of damage through a 2h, quickly, while DW specs excel at consistent DPS.

Both weapons are very good in experienced hands, but generally speaking, PvE DPS favors the DW's behavior over the 2h. You can run a 2h in PvE, and I have for years, but you're looking at more severe learning curve.

Priyasekarssk

barbarian340 wrote: »

ive seen multiple ppl say 2 handed is bad for pve dps...can someone explain why?

Simple. You dont have endless hail like skill or blade cloak.

Olupajmibanan

You'll be fine with 2h, don't worry. But never ever replace bow with it. It's only viable replacement for DW.
However, there are fights here and there where Deadly Cloak is mandatory (i.e. Assembly General in vHoF). But you can always just switch to DW on fights where Deadly Cloak is needed.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

barbarian340 wrote: »

ive seen multiple ppl say 2 handed is bad for pve dps...can someone explain why?

It's all been said, but...

It's not that it's bad per se, its just that their are better options. 2H is actually a very versatile skill line. Heal + self buff, AOE skill, Gap Closer, Execute, and "spam" skill. On paper it looks great.

So let's compare. First, I will assume that regardless of your choice, you back bar a bow. Endless hail is one of the best damage skills in the game, and PI gives you an execute. If you dont back bar a bow, you are leaving a lot of damage on the table any way you slice it.

First, lets look at rally/forward momentum. Simply put, its not needed in a group. You get weapon damage from potions, and heals from a healer. This skill is amazing in PVP, especially the snare removal, but is simply not needed in PVE.

Cleave/Brawler. Not a bad AOE skill, but the damage is laughable compared to steel tornado. Can be useful when soloing mobs, but you just shouldnt need the shield in a decent group. From a damage standpoint, this is a clear point in favor to DW because brawler just cant compete with the AOE damage from Steel tornado. The reality is that on boss fights, you dont run either.

Crit Charge. There is nothing that screams noob harder than using gap closers as a DPS in PVE. End point.

Reverse Slice. This is probably the most obvious thing that would make a person say, I want a 2H build. Everyone wants an execute. Keep in mind however that the DW passive slaughter, and PI from the bow are already acting as executes. You can also run bloodthirsty jewelry to help execute. In practice, this skill just doesnt stack up for sustained DPS. You are generally better off keeping up the majority of your rotation than going to an execute spam on a boss for the most part.

Wrecking Blow. This skill is garbage. No nice way to say it. In PVP, it hurts like heck, but good luck landing it on a good player. In PVE, it basically becomes your spammable, a slow clunky spammable. Its not bad on a dummy or static bosses, but the functionality of this skill in dynamic combat leaves a lot to be desired. Also, NBs have Surprise Attack, Templars have jabs, DKs have more DOTS than bar space, nobody plays a stam warden in PVE, and sorcs can use Shrouded Daggers or the psijic spammable. Point is that there are just better options either from a class line, psijic line, or DW line.

So end of the day, there are just better options than a 2H in PVE. Will it work? Sure, if played well, but no secret that you might not always get the benefit of the doubt from a new group. Experience has told most of us to expect very low damage when they see a 2H in groupfinder, but certainly, there are people out there pulling good damage with one. That said, I promise they would pull more with a pair of daggers.

Yubarius

Ragebull wrote: »

Well I’ve completed the hardest pve in the game with my two hand sword as my main weapon so it’s worked amazingly for me

Survivability is great because of cleave and rally, then you have an amazing execute which can be morphed to kill mobs of enemies

Anyone who tells you it’s no good is just one of those annoying “elitist ” know it alls who really just copies trendy builds from alcast or whatever

I agree that trying to limit build diversity and shaming people for trying to use unique builds is a bad thing; however, I don't really think it's fair to label people who perhaps simply enjoy using the best setups possible.

LeagueTroll

ArchMikem wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

For reference, this is my friend’s 2h 6mil parse with a stam sorc. Used both lover and twice-fanged because the class lacks a source of fracture. I think he’s since broken 50k but I couldn’t immediately find that screenshot.



Not sure what dw stam sorc does with the same stats, and I wouldn’t doubt it’s more. But certainly those kinds of numbers are plenty for any ST fight. Edit: As others have said, you’ll hear 2h is “bad” because it’s not the best, not because it can’t perform well.

I only see 2 2H skills in that parse. Can barely call that a 2H build.

What you expect. Pretty much all the decent mag pve build run 2 destro staff and yet elemental wall and desto ult (a lot build don’t even use this) is slotted?

Saturn

barbarian340 wrote: »

ive seen multiple ppl say 2 handed is bad for pve dps...can someone explain why?

2hander for PvE (at least endgame) isn't super common, but it's not actually bad, and has definitely become a lot more viable over the last year or two. The main issue is that it is tied to stam, which is already being sidelined in favour of ranged magicka-based builds.

SilverWF

I think, as it was already said, 2h is good (if not the same as 2w) for classes with self spammables (like NB).

What a Pros of 2h:
- Swords 5% damage increase (you just can't run 2 swords as 2w, because you would want to use 2 daggers)
- Weapon damage buffs (yes, pots, but pots are pots - expensive and whatever / not an option for Sorcs and DKs)
- Better stam regen (after kill)
- Pretty good executioner spammable (not an option for NB)
- Wrecking Blow - knida melee Snipe

What a Cons:
- Only 1 enchant, instead of 2
- Less crit rate (there is no 2h daggers)
- Only 1 trait (Nirn or Inf), instead of 2 (Nirn+Inf)
- Bit less damage to low health targets (not a real option, coz noone using 2w skills as spammables anyway, so only LAs and HAs would be affected, but Wrecking provides much more damage buffs for LAs)

Saturn

ArchMikem wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

For reference, this is my friend’s 2h 6mil parse with a stam sorc. Used both lover and twice-fanged because the class lacks a source of fracture. I think he’s since broken 50k but I couldn’t immediately find that screenshot.



Not sure what dw stam sorc does with the same stats, and I wouldn’t doubt it’s more. But certainly those kinds of numbers are plenty for any ST fight. Edit: As others have said, you’ll hear 2h is “bad” because it’s not the best, not because it can’t perform well.

I only see 2 2H skills in that parse. Can barely call that a 2H build.

Most dual wield setups only use 1 or 2 dual wield abilities. Most bow bars only have injection and hail on them. Same is generally true with destro staves. No one, at least in the endgame, exclusively use just the abilities tied to their weapon, but mix with class skills, guild-specific skills, and occasionally pvp skills. In my opinion, a 2hander build is when you use a 2handed weapon.

Iselin

2HD is a burst PvP weapon in this game.

Having said that, if you know what you're doing, you can do good damage in PvE with it. Yes DW + Bow is the go to stamina DPS build and it is better but don't let those obsessed with nothing but the best tell you it's worthless - it isn't.

mr_wazzabi

Dw does more single target dps due to:

1. Stronger light attack. Zos stupidly nerfed 2h light attack with Summerset
2. Two enchants. Dw users enchant the main hand with poison or disease for pure damage and the offhand with berserker to up the weapon damage.
3. Two traits. Main hand is nirnhoned for pure damage while offhand is infused for the berserker buff.
4. Two weapon types at the same time. Main hand axe for bleed dot, offhand dagger for increased crit chance. Money.
5. Rending slashes. A much stronger dot than brawler on single targets.

Luthid

@ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_Wrobel I’d love to get your eyes on this thread. There are a lot of salient points, and mostly without drama or negativity.

Koensol

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

Whenever I see a two-hander in a dungeon, I'm like " Dis gonna be bad" Whenever I see a two-hander in BG's coming at me, I'm like " Dis gonna be bad"

I have an experimental/fun 2h stamblade build dealing about 35k solo dummy dps, that I also use on vMA. It utilizes master 2h and absolutely wrecks groups of trash. I don't see how that is bad for most dungeons. And I'm 100% sure there are 2h builds that can reach 40k dps on dummy. Matter of fact is dw is just better, and about 5k dps ahead.

idk

barbarian340 wrote: »

ive seen multiple ppl say 2 handed is bad for pve dps...can someone explain why?

It’s incorrect. Heck, alcast makes it work.

It comes down to the build then execution of the rotation. Many have had builds to start with.

Leogon

TheDarkShadow wrote: »

You can still pull 35k+ with 2h, even with no major fracture

This.
Don't listen to the sheeple and PvE with a 2h if you want to. Now that 2h weapons count as 2, there's no reason not to use a 2h if you wanna use one.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Leogon wrote: »

TheDarkShadow wrote: »

You can still pull 35k+ with 2h, even with no major fracture

This.
Don't listen to the sheeple and PvE with a 2h if you want to. Now that 2h weapons count as 2, there's no reason not to use a 2h if you wanna use one.

Pointing out that one weapon line is objectively more DPS than other doesn’t make someone a sheep or sheeple or whatever stupid nickname you want to use.

There is absolutely a reason not to run a 2H. The reason is that DW will give you more DPS any way you slice it. Now that may not matter to you, and that’s perfectly fine, but it is certainly a compelling reason.

Glurin

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Leogon wrote: »

TheDarkShadow wrote: »

You can still pull 35k+ with 2h, even with no major fracture

This.
Don't listen to the sheeple and PvE with a 2h if you want to. Now that 2h weapons count as 2, there's no reason not to use a 2h if you wanna use one.

Pointing out that one weapon line is objectively more DPS than other doesn’t make someone a sheep or sheeple or whatever stupid nickname you want to use.

There is absolutely a reason not to run a 2H. The reason is that DW will give you more DPS any way you slice it. Now that may not matter to you, and that’s perfectly fine, but it is certainly a compelling reason.

Not that compelling. "Sheeple" will look at "2H does less DPS" and that's it, whereas a less meta obsessed person would ask "How much less and what do I have to do to see that difference?"

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Glurin wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Leogon wrote: »

TheDarkShadow wrote: »

You can still pull 35k+ with 2h, even with no major fracture

This.
Don't listen to the sheeple and PvE with a 2h if you want to. Now that 2h weapons count as 2, there's no reason not to use a 2h if you wanna use one.

Pointing out that one weapon line is objectively more DPS than other doesn’t make someone a sheep or sheeple or whatever stupid nickname you want to use.

There is absolutely a reason not to run a 2H. The reason is that DW will give you more DPS any way you slice it. Now that may not matter to you, and that’s perfectly fine, but it is certainly a compelling reason.

Not that compelling. "Sheeple" will look at "2H does less DPS" and that's it, whereas a less meta obsessed person would ask "How much less and what do I have to do to see that difference?"

Well you can scroll up and see where I analyze every skill in the 2H line, and where others bring up the points like the double enchants, multiple traits, extra crit from daggers, execute passives, HA/LA damage differences, etc.

Whenever I hear the term sheeple it just makes me cringe. It’s one of those terms that when it comes out of your mouth, I just assume you are missing more than a handful of IQ points.

Nobody in this thread has said run DW or GTFO. What we have done is say, 2H is viable but DW is superior for a DPS in PVE content, which objectively true, and then tried to explain why.

Sheeple, as far as I understand the term, are people that follow without questioning why. Well, me and a few others are explaining exactly why one line is superior to the other for a specific task. I just don’t see how that term is remotely accurate.

Tannus15

ArchMikem wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

For reference, this is my friend’s 2h 6mil parse with a stam sorc. Used both lover and twice-fanged because the class lacks a source of fracture. I think he’s since broken 50k but I couldn’t immediately find that screenshot.



Not sure what dw stam sorc does with the same stats, and I wouldn’t doubt it’s more. But certainly those kinds of numbers are plenty for any ST fight. Edit: As others have said, you’ll hear 2h is “bad” because it’s not the best, not because it can’t perform well.

I only see 2 2H skills in that parse. Can barely call that a 2H build.

Seriously? My stam sorc is only using rapid strikes and rending slashes from the DW line. I've got a flex spot that i'll sometimes slot cloak in depending on the fight, but 90% of the time I don't bother.

Tannus15

Koensol wrote: »

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

Whenever I see a two-hander in a dungeon, I'm like " Dis gonna be bad" Whenever I see a two-hander in BG's coming at me, I'm like " Dis gonna be bad"

I have an experimental/fun 2h stamblade build dealing about 35k solo dummy dps, that I also use on vMA. It utilizes master 2h and absolutely wrecks groups of trash. I don't see how that is bad for most dungeons. And I'm 100% sure there are 2h builds that can reach 40k dps on dummy. Matter of fact is dw is just better, and about 5k dps ahead.

I have a bow / bow stam blade build that gets 44k that I completed vMA with, but I'm the first person to tell you not to do that because to be honest it was painful as hell.
I also wouldn't take it in a vet trial because I have a hard time justifying why I'm the special snowflake that doesn't have to do the highest possible dps I can as we start our 30th attempt to kill vHoF 2nd boss.

Cladius30

Has anyone mentioned the sword-singer set increases two handed weapon damage considerably.

Tannus15

Cladius30 wrote: »

Has anyone mentioned the sword-singer set increases two handed weapon damage considerably.

In general, for PvE those focused sets are pretty bad.
for example, a lot of dps is coming from non 2h skills with e-hail, pinject, caltrops, rearming trap and whatever class skills that apply, like hurricane.

If you look at the stam-sorc parse earlier in this thread only 10.2k dps comes from 2h skills. that means there is another 38k which wouldn't get buffed from sword-singer. You're better off with a set like ravager which buffs your weapon damage across the board.

hedna123b14_ESO

I was bored, so I did a little comparison on a stamplar.
https://youtu.be/3C9MfI3T02A

leepalmer95

Its perfectly capable of doing all the pve in the game.

Avran_Sylt

For me, there are two reasons that I don't use 2H in PvE:

DW allows for 2 Enchantments and 2 Traits on your main-bar. And allows a setup like:

Nirn+Infused. With Poison + Berserker Enchant

On DW I get 1535 WD + 452 WD for 5s every 5s (452 effective) + 2534 Poison every 4s

Meaning at max I get: 1,987 WD + 2534 Poison Damage every 4s

On 2H I would have to choose between:

(1) 1,806 WD +348 WD for 5s every 10s (174 effective WD)
OR
(2) 1,571 +3,294 Poison every 2s
OR
(3) 1,571 + 452 WD for 5s every 5s (452 effective WD)
OR
(4) 1,806 WD + 2534 Poison every 4s

Meaning at max I get: (3) 2,023 WD

Meaning with proper weaving DW gains 633 Poison DPS at the cost of 50 WD. (Added Poison DPS relies only on Weaving)

50 WD is rather small, and will add roughly 200 DPS to your rotation. (Added WD DPS relies on Weaving + Rotation)

For me to use 2H seriously in PvE, I'd want the Base Weapon Damage Value to be buffed by a small amount.

Grynnyl

Just curious how much this changes if you begin discussing solo PVE? In that case, it seems the survival benefits of a 2h/bow build might compensate for the damage you would miss compared to a dw/bow build.

Protests about this being a multi-player/group based game not withstanding...