Can we now get a balance patch for bg/no-CP

Zer0oo

Till now sets and abilities were more or less balanced around having cp but now that we are forced to play no-cp pvp with the bg it is time for some special balance around no-cp pvp. BGs are no fun if you get put in a lobby stacked with one of those overperforming BS. You can look the data you are collection an see the raise of proc sets in BGs because they are just too good in no-CP.

To name a few

• Proc sets deal way too much damage compared to the actual skills and they do not cost anything. Skills should more decide the fight than a set that does the damage for you
• Cost increase poisons: They are way over the TOP. If you want a set that would counter the cost increase you would have to use ~4xseducer set or a set that gives 60% reg bonus and that would only counter one part but not other increases
• Bleeds and defile(after the pts harder to get good uptime)

@ZOS_GinaBruno ; @ZOS_RichLambert; @ZOS_Wrobel ; @ZOS_BrianWheeler

P.S:
It would also be interesting how BG will be with the stats from cp(20% more hp/stam/mag) but without the actual CP active.

Mister_DMC

The extra stats would be nice but ultimately not needed as everyone is missing them now so that's balanced. Arguably all poisons should be removed but while double dot poisons or trapping poisons hurt, cost increase poisons are crippling. Thankfully most people don't run them as they are either too expensive or perhaps too cheesy.

I would like to see cost poisons removed from the game. Proc sets are very strong in no cp but honestly my strongest characters don't really use them and I continue to kill players that do.

Strider__Roshin

Mage's Fury is the biggest offender in BGs.

Vapirko

Daus wrote: »

Mage's Fury is the biggest offender in BGs.

Ranged attacks in general should have a BGs specific nerf I think. Way too easy for people to sit back and spam lethal arrow, mages wrath, or really any ranged ability. And because of the varied terrain, they’re often able to sit in spots welll outside the battle and that require effort to get to. And in no way should this be considered a strategy.

brandonv516

Vapirko wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Mage's Fury is the biggest offender in BGs.

Ranged attacks in general should have a BGs specific nerf I think. Way too easy for people to sit back and spam lethal arrow, mages wrath, or really any ranged ability. And because of the varied terrain, they’re often able to sit in spots welll outside the battle and that require effort to get to. And in no way should this be considered a strategy.

So it's not strategy to fight in other ways than melee?

Not everyone wants to run gap close, burst, kill, retreat, heal, regenerate, repeat.

Ranged, burst, kill, evade, heal, regenerate, repeat. This is my strategy. Doesn't look much different.

You'll know the bad ranged players when you pressure them, just like you know the bad melee players when they go down like a box of rocks.

ReName

also they need a inmobilize cool down like the stun talons spam is way to op in BG

brandonv516

ReName wrote: »

also they need a inmobilize cool down like the stun talons spam is way to op in BG

There is one. It's so short though that you don't notice it (1-2s I think?).

Vapirko

brandonv516 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Mage's Fury is the biggest offender in BGs.

Ranged attacks in general should have a BGs specific nerf I think. Way too easy for people to sit back and spam lethal arrow, mages wrath, or really any ranged ability. And because of the varied terrain, they’re often able to sit in spots welll outside the battle and that require effort to get to. And in no way should this be considered a strategy.

So it's not strategy to fight in other ways than melee?

Not everyone wants to run gap close, burst, kill, retreat, heal, regenerate, repeat.

Ranged, burst, kill, evade, heal, regenerate, repeat. This is my strategy. Doesn't look much different.

You'll know the bad ranged players when you pressure them, just like you know the bad melee players when they go down like a box of rocks.

There’s a difference between ranged play style and then sitting out of reach spamming the most powerful skills in the game to snake kills while you do no actual fighting. The ranges of these skills was meant for open world PvP not BGs.

brandonv516

Vapirko wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Mage's Fury is the biggest offender in BGs.

Ranged attacks in general should have a BGs specific nerf I think. Way too easy for people to sit back and spam lethal arrow, mages wrath, or really any ranged ability. And because of the varied terrain, they’re often able to sit in spots welll outside the battle and that require effort to get to. And in no way should this be considered a strategy.

So it's not strategy to fight in other ways than melee?

Not everyone wants to run gap close, burst, kill, retreat, heal, regenerate, repeat.

Ranged, burst, kill, evade, heal, regenerate, repeat. This is my strategy. Doesn't look much different.

You'll know the bad ranged players when you pressure them, just like you know the bad melee players when they go down like a box of rocks.

There’s a difference between ranged play style and then sitting out of reach spamming the most powerful skills in the game to snake kills while you do no actual fighting. The ranges of these skills was meant for open world PvP not BGs.

Okay but earlier you wanted a nerf in BGs to:

or really any ranged ability

So...that's a ranged play style - using ranged abilities. You can see how this would kind of irritate anybody but melee characters.

Emma_Overload

Mister_DMC wrote: »

The extra stats would be nice but ultimately not needed as everyone is missing them now so that's balanced. Arguably all poisons should be removed but while double dot poisons or trapping poisons hurt, cost increase poisons are crippling. Thankfully most people don't run them as they are either too expensive or perhaps too cheesy.

I would like to see cost poisons removed from the game. Proc sets are very strong in no cp but honestly my strongest characters don't really use them and I continue to kill players that do.

The lack of extra stats is NOT balanced. Damage shields scale off of Magicka alone, but heals scale off Spell Damage AND Magicka. This is very unfair to Magicka Sorcs.

ecru

Damage is way too high in general, especially ranged dps, or hp is too low, pick one. HP could stand to be doubled, and no, I'm not kidding. TTK is the lowest I've ever seen in pvp in any MMO, it's honestly bizarre and not fun to get instagibbed by the other team from frags/lethal arrow/endless fury before you can even react.

I'm really surprised zos didn't do a balance pass before midyear mayhem, things are really really bad atm.

brandonv516 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Mage's Fury is the biggest offender in BGs.

Ranged attacks in general should have a BGs specific nerf I think. Way too easy for people to sit back and spam lethal arrow, mages wrath, or really any ranged ability. And because of the varied terrain, they’re often able to sit in spots welll outside the battle and that require effort to get to. And in no way should this be considered a strategy.

So it's not strategy to fight in other ways than melee?

Not everyone wants to run gap close, burst, kill, retreat, heal, regenerate, repeat.

Ranged, burst, kill, evade, heal, regenerate, repeat. This is my strategy. Doesn't look much different.

You'll know the bad ranged players when you pressure them, just like you know the bad melee players when they go down like a box of rocks.

Ranged shouldn't do as much damage as melee, or melee should be inherently tankier. Right now this isn't really the case. Playing melee is always riskier and should come with a higher reward.

Right now a lot of BGs are basically rune cage -> eat a few abilities (frags, curse, lethal arrow, executes) in the time it takes you to break free -> die and rinse/repeat if you're playing melee and the other team(s) are mostly ranged.

del9

I think another 5k HP in nocp battlespirit would be cool. Wouldn’t change the balance of anything, will just put non-tanks out of single combo burst range for many encountere that might previously kill them. It wont punish skilled play, will just give a chance of counterplay against Sorc burst, proc burst, and even some stam bursts.

Also think extra HP would be a needed buff to medium armor builds in the current climate

brandonv516

ecru wrote: »

Damage is way too high in general, especially ranged dps, or hp is too low, pick one. HP could stand to be doubled, and no, I'm not kidding. TTK is the lowest I've ever seen in pvp in any MMO, it's honestly bizarre and not fun to get instagibbed by the other team from frags/lethal arrow/endless fury before you can even react.

I'm really surprised zos didn't do a balance pass before midyear mayhem, things are really really bad atm.

brandonv516 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Mage's Fury is the biggest offender in BGs.

Ranged attacks in general should have a BGs specific nerf I think. Way too easy for people to sit back and spam lethal arrow, mages wrath, or really any ranged ability. And because of the varied terrain, they’re often able to sit in spots welll outside the battle and that require effort to get to. And in no way should this be considered a strategy.

So it's not strategy to fight in other ways than melee?

Not everyone wants to run gap close, burst, kill, retreat, heal, regenerate, repeat.

Ranged, burst, kill, evade, heal, regenerate, repeat. This is my strategy. Doesn't look much different.

You'll know the bad ranged players when you pressure them, just like you know the bad melee players when they go down like a box of rocks.

Ranged shouldn't do as much damage as melee, or melee should be inherently tankier. Right now this isn't really the case. Playing melee is always riskier and should come with a higher reward.

Right now a lot of BGs are basically rune cage -> eat a few abilities (frags, curse, lethal arrow, executes) in the time it takes you to break free -> die and rinse/repeat if you're playing melee and the other team(s) are mostly ranged.

Disagree. Nerf ranged players' damage and nothing changes how easy it is for good melee players to close the gap.

Then with your changes melee players would be much stronger (too strong).

Small tweaks are necessary to specific ranged skills as are small tweaks to specific melee skills.

oxygen_thief

Vapirko wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Mage's Fury is the biggest offender in BGs.

Ranged attacks in general should have a BGs specific nerf I think. Way too easy for people to sit back and spam lethal arrow, mages wrath, or really any ranged ability. And because of the varied terrain, they’re often able to sit in spots welll outside the battle and that require effort to get to. And in no way should this be considered a strategy.

melee attacks should be nerfed in bg. way too easy to use gap closers, bash and other spin to win abilities. skill is not needed to do this disgraceful things. i think melee players should be banned forever and ever

ChildOfLight

oxygen_thief wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Mage's Fury is the biggest offender in BGs.

Ranged attacks in general should have a BGs specific nerf I think. Way too easy for people to sit back and spam lethal arrow, mages wrath, or really any ranged ability. And because of the varied terrain, they’re often able to sit in spots welll outside the battle and that require effort to get to. And in no way should this be considered a strategy.

melee attacks should be nerfed in bg. way too easy to use gap closers, bash and other spin to win abilities. skill is not needed to do this disgraceful things. i think melee players should be banned forever and ever

Right. And then rename the game: "Call of Duty: Black Staves Online"

BGs are already a massive duck hunt. The winning team usually is the one with more healbots/magicka ranged dudes

oxygen_thief

i thought it is the one with more coordination and bleeding+oblivion+defile builds. if you have problems with ranged classes i can teach you to use gap closers.

Crixus8000

I agree. Some things are overperforming.

My main annoyance is bleeds. they deal way too much dmg and ignore everything. At least make it so they are affected by resistances.

Defile is very strong but I can see an issue with tank/healers maybe being too unkillable without it. I would be much more ok with defile if things like sloads/bleeds didn't work how they did though. Having healing reduced so much then taking like 3-5k dmg a second from one player by things you can't block, roll, resist or los is a stupid design.

Cost poisons are op yeah, but I also think the root poison is too, being immobilized and snared when cc immune is stupid. Those poisons ignore immunity and make 1vx or just pvp in general much more frustrating and harder to play.

And finally the proc sets, yeah they deal way too much dmg. I have had a 23k zaan tooltip and my character is very tanky. you can't block it I don't think ? You can't roll away since it's break distance is way more than that. Caluuruions hits harder than most ults and every 10 seconds too. But I don't mind these things as much in 1v1 when you can counter them in ways. but when in group fights have more than one caluurion proc for example can be a bit much.

I would like pvp to be as skill based as possible. Not just pressing a light attack and having all your procs and poisons go off for mad damage and cc. Or applying a few skills and watching them melt from bleeds/sloads. There isn't much counterplay and it's not fun to fight against these types of builds.

Crixus8000

del9 wrote: »

I think another 5k HP in nocp battlespirit would be cool. Wouldn’t change the balance of anything, will just put non-tanks out of single combo burst range for many encountere that might previously kill them. It wont punish skilled play, will just give a chance of counterplay against Sorc burst, proc burst, and even some stam bursts.

Also think extra HP would be a needed buff to medium armor builds in the current climate

This would help counter builds that rely on burst to win fights, but do nothing at all to builds that rely on pressure and in my opinion they are much worse. A heavy stamblade applying defile from incap then sloads and 3 bleeds will make you melt, and high hp won't stop that.

mojomood

brandonv516 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Mage's Fury is the biggest offender in BGs.

Ranged attacks in general should have a BGs specific nerf I think. Way too easy for people to sit back and spam lethal arrow, mages wrath, or really any ranged ability. And because of the varied terrain, they’re often able to sit in spots welll outside the battle and that require effort to get to. And in no way should this be considered a strategy.

So it's not strategy to fight in other ways than melee?

Not everyone wants to run gap close, burst, kill, retreat, heal, regenerate, repeat.

Ranged, burst, kill, evade, heal, regenerate, repeat. This is my strategy. Doesn't look much different.

You'll know the bad ranged players when you pressure them, just like you know the bad melee players when they go down like a box of rocks.

I have no problem with ranged play, in fact I'm usually on a ranged magblade. However, I think the reference was to people who stay in their own spawn when it's inaccessible to other players. This is especially problematic when you are playing certain match types. For instance, chaosball strategy is usually to run to their own base as it's the most defensible and closest for respawn. But when those who respawn are in the spawn area, they have an obvious advantage that a melee player does not. Spawns should have a timer to leave safely. Players who stay beyond that should either be dropped off (like the new trial when outside the platform).

mojomood

Zer0oo wrote: »

Till now sets and abilities were more or less balanced around having cp but now that we are forced to play no-cp pvp with the bg it is time for some special balance around no-cp pvp. BGs are no fun if you get put in a lobby stacked with one of those overperforming BS. You can look the data you are collection an see the raise of proc sets in BGs because they are just too good in no-CP.

To name a few

• Proc sets deal way too much damage compared to the actual skills and they do not cost anything. Skills should more decide the fight than a set that does the damage for you
• Cost increase poisons: They are way over the TOP. If you want a set that would counter the cost increase you would have to use ~4xseducer set or a set that gives 60% reg bonus and that would only counter one part but not other increases
• Bleeds and defile(after the pts harder to get good uptime)

@ZOS_GinaBruno ; @ZOS_RichLambert; @ZOS_Wrobel ; @ZOS_BrianWheeler

P.S:
It would also be interesting how BG will be with the stats from cp(20% more hp/stam/mag) but without the actual CP active.

I don't want any abilities nerfed for no CP (and I say that having most of my deaths to Mages Wrath). The point of no CP is that it is harder to survive and burst is higher. I think some skills need reworked like Mages Wrath since it steals a lot of kills in deathmatch and is generally an easy button to spam for zergs. Proc sets are very strong for no CP, but partly because people know that time to kill is short so going all in on damage is rewarded while dying only means a 3-19 second respawn. The risk is worth the reward so people build for burst.

Cost poisons don't need a nerf outside of stamina poisons affecting movement mechanics. Dodge roll and break free are already very expensive on magicka players with limited stamina. A stamina cost poison can make a single break free cost over 70% of your stamina. Whereas a stamina player gets reduced cost through armor passives and armor skills, so the increased cost will usually be 15-20% of their stamina. I have adjusted my build to have higher stamina, but even at 14k stamina, I can barely break free twice if poisoned and a fossilize is almost guaranteed death.

gannicus1389

Zer0oo wrote: »

Till now sets and abilities were more or less balanced around having cp but now that we are forced to play no-cp pvp with the bg it is time for some special balance around no-cp pvp. BGs are no fun if you get put in a lobby stacked with one of those overperforming BS. You can look the data you are collection an see the raise of proc sets in BGs because they are just too good in no-CP.

To name a few

• Proc sets deal way too much damage compared to the actual skills and they do not cost anything. Skills should more decide the fight than a set that does the damage for you
• Cost increase poisons: They are way over the TOP. If you want a set that would counter the cost increase you would have to use ~4xseducer set or a set that gives 60% reg bonus and that would only counter one part but not other increases
• Bleeds and defile(after the pts harder to get good uptime)

@ZOS_GinaBruno ; @ZOS_RichLambert; @ZOS_Wrobel ; @ZOS_BrianWheeler

P.S:
It would also be interesting how BG will be with the stats from cp(20% more hp/stam/mag) but without the actual CP active.

i agree with you. In CP procs sets are not as broken because of our extra resistences. We need something like this. it is frustrating dying in 2 seconds for zaans/sloads/skoria/calurion without much added by the player itself.