Time for Chorrol and Cheydinhal to be objectives.

bpmachete

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom
There has been an imbalance for a long time in the Cyrodiil map that has ended up being more one sided and things have become pretty predictable. Valastarus and Cropsford are valuable capture points close to AD's Base keeps, and key for Scroll Runs. It's time to add Chorrol and Cheydinhal to the objectives to at least stem the imbalance, since Bruma is out more in the center and not behind the spear point trikeeps. Please consider adding this to PvP. Chorrol would be a crazy place to fight with it sinking and the danger of the lava and Cheydinhal Walls and internal struggle would make it amazing aswell, so they would both be harder to capture than Cropsford and Vlastarus but would be so much fun and would balance the scales a bit in PvP to have escape valves for the Faction stacking that is going on.

I think most people would agree it would be a good addition and could bring a new dynamic to the war.

White wabbit

Thanks but no I don't think this is the answer to fixing cryodill

Marabornwingrion

How about connecting towns to keeps, so we could port in/out if needed.

bpmachete

White wabbit wrote: »

Thanks but no I don't think this is the answer to fixing cryodill

Because?

bpmachete

Astrid_V wrote: »

How about connecting towns to keeps, so we could port in/out if needed.

Not sure that would work, but an interesting idea could be sewers out in certain open world areas... not sure, I think that's a bit far fetched. I think the adding of these two towns would be awesome for the War in general.

White wabbit

bpmachete wrote: »

White wabbit wrote: »

Thanks but no I don't think this is the answer to fixing cryodill

Because?

Because there are much larger issues that need addressing than this

bpmachete

White wabbit wrote: »

bpmachete wrote: »

White wabbit wrote: »

Thanks but no I don't think this is the answer to fixing cryodill

Because?

Because there are much larger issues that need addressing than this

Yeah, well they need to address those also, but a Double XP Cyrodiil with new objectives would be bomb. I actually think they are gonna do this, it's just a matter of time, and I think it's a good time now. They could even make some werewolf stuff be going on close by to make it fun.

White wabbit

Plus these two you suggest only favour 2 alliances

VaranisArano

White wabbit wrote: »

Plus these two you suggest only favour 2 alliances

That's because AD currently has 2 towns, while EP and DC have Bruma. Admittedly, we'd need 6 towns to make everything exactly equal.

casparian

This is a good idea even if you're not primarily concerned about balance. Cyrodiil just needs more to do, especially for players who aren't in zergs along the emp keep lines (bless them).

Joy_Division

bpmachete wrote: »

White wabbit wrote: »

Thanks but no I don't think this is the answer to fixing cryodill

Because?

Because AD's main issue is spending their time looking for excuses to explain their losses rather than spending their time analyzing what they can do better.

They do love that whole "we're screwed because of the two town" theory. But ignore that their two Emp ring keeps are geographically blessed for defense - Alessia is an AP generating farm on its own how EP funnels to the Front Door and there aren't any hills attackers can siege Roe from safety (meanwhile Aleswell has two and Chalman one).

bpmachete

Joy_Division wrote: »

bpmachete wrote: »

White wabbit wrote: »

Thanks but no I don't think this is the answer to fixing cryodill

Because?

Because AD's main issue is spending their time looking for excuses to explain their losses rather than spending their time analyzing what they can do better.

They do love that whole "we're screwed because of the two town" theory. But ignore that their two Emp ring keeps are geographically blessed for defense - Alessia is an AP generating farm on its own how EP funnels to the Front Door and there aren't any hills attackers can siege Roe from safety (meanwhile Aleswell has two and Chalman one).

What? I made no excuse for any faction.

This theory of yours on the other hand about the keeps being geographically blessed for defense is false on so many levels. Alessia has the farm where you can seige from and also the Mine side is blessed to seige. Roebeck can be attacked from all sides and there are spawn points at every angle against it.

Again no excuses, but the terrain to attack the lowlands is favorable for offense, no mountains and flat terrain everywhere to place camps, while the higher lands are more mountainous and harder to reach and traverse. That's fine, I like the variety and advantages and disadvantages of Cyrodiil. It's a master piece.

I think that the journey to travel to the Gates of the opposing alliances in the highlands is a far farther ride and having the towns to make a push towards the gates will be a great addition when they implement it. Remember with no towns how it was to go get the scrolls, the ride was greater. For DC and EP having those towns could also benefit them to launch attacks from and also it's only on one side you would have to watch for the invasion of the towns, as Bruma is in the middle and is not as beneficial to reach the gates for Scroll runs. The towns could be captured by any faction and serve dual purposes for attack and defense as if one of the home keeps being attacked capturing the town can help get another spawn point to ride from. On the northern side DC and EP won't have to watch for invasions close to their gates.

I think it's gonna be great when they add it and PvP will be less predictable.

Joy_Division

bpmachete wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

bpmachete wrote: »

White wabbit wrote: »

Thanks but no I don't think this is the answer to fixing cryodill

Because?

Because AD's main issue is spending their time looking for excuses to explain their losses rather than spending their time analyzing what they can do better.

They do love that whole "we're screwed because of the two town" theory. But ignore that their two Emp ring keeps are geographically blessed for defense - Alessia is an AP generating farm on its own how EP funnels to the Front Door and there aren't any hills attackers can siege Roe from safety (meanwhile Aleswell has two and Chalman one).

What? I made no excuse for any faction.

This theory of yours on the other hand about the keeps being geographically blessed for defense is false on so many levels. Alessia has the farm where you can seige from and also the Mine side is blessed to seige. Roebeck can be attacked from all sides and there are spawn points at every angle against it.

Again no excuses, but the terrain to attack the lowlands is favorable for offense, no mountains and flat terrain everywhere to place camps, while the higher lands are more mountainous and harder to reach and traverse. That's fine, I like the variety and advantages and disadvantages of Cyrodiil. It's a master piece.

I think that the journey to travel to the Gates of the opposing alliances in the highlands is a far farther ride and having the towns to make a push towards the gates will be a great addition when they implement it. Remember with no towns how it was to go get the scrolls, the ride was greater. For DC and EP having those towns could also benefit them to launch attacks from and also it's only on one side you would have to watch for the invasion of the towns, as Bruma is in the middle and is not as beneficial to reach the gates for Scroll runs. The towns could be captured by any faction and serve dual purposes for attack and defense as if one of the home keeps being attacked capturing the town can help get another spawn point to ride from. On the northern side DC and EP won't have to watch for invasions close to their gates.

I think it's gonna be great when they add it and PvP will be less predictable.

Roebeck is not harder to defend than Aleswell or Chalman.

Edit: to be more specific, attackers cannot set up mass siege on cliff face and siege with virtually impunity on Roe. They can do this in two spots at Aleswell, with both spot choking a potential counter-attacking force.

If Alessia Farm side was on the North side (i.e. where EP approaches), then I would agree that would be a disadvantage. But in fact it faces toward AD's spawnpoint, which makes it quite convenient for AD PuGs when they have to take it back and means 90% of the time, AD has an APfest at the front door.

But that's besides the point, you said there was an imbalance, which sounds like an excuse to me, because of the towns and tried to rationalize how this was disadvantageous to AD, which also sounds like an excuse. And now you're trying to rationalize how having no over-sighting hills around a castle is a disadvantage? Go to Europe someday and visit the castles. When you do, be prepared to walk up hills and not down them.

bpmachete

Joy_Division wrote: »

bpmachete wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

bpmachete wrote: »

White wabbit wrote: »

Thanks but no I don't think this is the answer to fixing cryodill

Because?

Because AD's main issue is spending their time looking for excuses to explain their losses rather than spending their time analyzing what they can do better.

They do love that whole "we're screwed because of the two town" theory. But ignore that their two Emp ring keeps are geographically blessed for defense - Alessia is an AP generating farm on its own how EP funnels to the Front Door and there aren't any hills attackers can siege Roe from safety (meanwhile Aleswell has two and Chalman one).

What? I made no excuse for any faction.

This theory of yours on the other hand about the keeps being geographically blessed for defense is false on so many levels. Alessia has the farm where you can seige from and also the Mine side is blessed to seige. Roebeck can be attacked from all sides and there are spawn points at every angle against it.

Again no excuses, but the terrain to attack the lowlands is favorable for offense, no mountains and flat terrain everywhere to place camps, while the higher lands are more mountainous and harder to reach and traverse. That's fine, I like the variety and advantages and disadvantages of Cyrodiil. It's a master piece.

I think that the journey to travel to the Gates of the opposing alliances in the highlands is a far farther ride and having the towns to make a push towards the gates will be a great addition when they implement it. Remember with no towns how it was to go get the scrolls, the ride was greater. For DC and EP having those towns could also benefit them to launch attacks from and also it's only on one side you would have to watch for the invasion of the towns, as Bruma is in the middle and is not as beneficial to reach the gates for Scroll runs. The towns could be captured by any faction and serve dual purposes for attack and defense as if one of the home keeps being attacked capturing the town can help get another spawn point to ride from. On the northern side DC and EP won't have to watch for invasions close to their gates.

I think it's gonna be great when they add it and PvP will be less predictable.

Roebeck is not harder to defend than Aleswell or Chalman.

Edit: to be more specific, attackers cannot set up mass siege on cliff face and siege with virtually impunity on Roe. They can do this in two spots at Aleswell, with both spot choking a potential counter-attacking force.

If Alessia Farm side was on the North side (i.e. where EP approaches), then I would agree that would be a disadvantage. But in fact it faces toward AD's spawnpoint, which makes it quite convenient for AD PuGs when they have to take it back and means 90% of the time, AD has an APfest at the front door.

But that's besides the point, you said there was an imbalance, which sounds like an excuse to me, because of the towns and tried to rationalize how this was disadvantageous to AD, which also sounds like an excuse. And now you're trying to rationalize how having no over-sighting hills around a castle is a disadvantage? Go to Europe someday and visit the castles. When you do, be prepared to walk up hills and not down them.

There is an imbalance in the map layout which is natural for that to exist, as it creates tension and immersion each side rationalizing who should be the victor and why.

I disagree with you that Aleswell is harder to defend and just because there is a plateau at Alesswell you are taking over the thread with this perception of yours. The DC side is up hill. First you have to go from Roe up to Ash which has a mountain covering an entire side where you have to do huge flank to go on the other side. Then you would go down towards Aleswell. You can also climb towards the home keeps. The mountains also dont allow you to set up camps.

My question is why you are taking over this thread talking about Alessia and Roebeck which acording to you are the most incredible keeps and so well protected, when I brought up the point of having another objective closer to the enemy gates in order to launch attacks for scroll runs? Why do you have to change the subject. If something bothers you about my opinion you can just move on, is it threatening to you that we have an objective closer to your base? Are you scared that since Roebeck is so impenetrable and Ash and Aleswell and Chalman are so accesible with hills all over, that if there is an objective closer to your home keeps you just won't be able to cope? Why don't you start your own thread about how vulnerable you feel?

Back to the real subject, what's wrong with you? Who wouldn't want to fight in Chorrol? I can imagine the epic fights there, people being speared into the lava... and Cheydinhal, impregnable ancient walls, a city in ruin with rivers dividing, perfect for small scale fights.

VaranisArano

bpmachete wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

bpmachete wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

bpmachete wrote: »

White wabbit wrote: »

Thanks but no I don't think this is the answer to fixing cryodill

Because?

Because AD's main issue is spending their time looking for excuses to explain their losses rather than spending their time analyzing what they can do better.

They do love that whole "we're screwed because of the two town" theory. But ignore that their two Emp ring keeps are geographically blessed for defense - Alessia is an AP generating farm on its own how EP funnels to the Front Door and there aren't any hills attackers can siege Roe from safety (meanwhile Aleswell has two and Chalman one).

What? I made no excuse for any faction.

This theory of yours on the other hand about the keeps being geographically blessed for defense is false on so many levels. Alessia has the farm where you can seige from and also the Mine side is blessed to seige. Roebeck can be attacked from all sides and there are spawn points at every angle against it.

Again no excuses, but the terrain to attack the lowlands is favorable for offense, no mountains and flat terrain everywhere to place camps, while the higher lands are more mountainous and harder to reach and traverse. That's fine, I like the variety and advantages and disadvantages of Cyrodiil. It's a master piece.

I think that the journey to travel to the Gates of the opposing alliances in the highlands is a far farther ride and having the towns to make a push towards the gates will be a great addition when they implement it. Remember with no towns how it was to go get the scrolls, the ride was greater. For DC and EP having those towns could also benefit them to launch attacks from and also it's only on one side you would have to watch for the invasion of the towns, as Bruma is in the middle and is not as beneficial to reach the gates for Scroll runs. The towns could be captured by any faction and serve dual purposes for attack and defense as if one of the home keeps being attacked capturing the town can help get another spawn point to ride from. On the northern side DC and EP won't have to watch for invasions close to their gates.

I think it's gonna be great when they add it and PvP will be less predictable.

Roebeck is not harder to defend than Aleswell or Chalman.

Edit: to be more specific, attackers cannot set up mass siege on cliff face and siege with virtually impunity on Roe. They can do this in two spots at Aleswell, with both spot choking a potential counter-attacking force.

If Alessia Farm side was on the North side (i.e. where EP approaches), then I would agree that would be a disadvantage. But in fact it faces toward AD's spawnpoint, which makes it quite convenient for AD PuGs when they have to take it back and means 90% of the time, AD has an APfest at the front door.

But that's besides the point, you said there was an imbalance, which sounds like an excuse to me, because of the towns and tried to rationalize how this was disadvantageous to AD, which also sounds like an excuse. And now you're trying to rationalize how having no over-sighting hills around a castle is a disadvantage? Go to Europe someday and visit the castles. When you do, be prepared to walk up hills and not down them.

There is an imbalance in the map layout which is natural for that to exist, as it creates tension and immersion each side rationalizing who should be the victor and why.

I disagree with you that Aleswell is harder to defend and just because there is a plateau at Alesswell you are taking over the thread with this perception of yours. The DC side is up hill. First you have to go from Roe up to Ash which has a mountain covering an entire side where you have to do huge flank to go on the other side. Then you would go down towards Aleswell. You can also climb towards the home keeps. The mountains also dont allow you to set up camps.

My question is why you are taking over this thread talking about Alessia and Roebeck which acording to you are the most incredible keeps and so well protected, when I brought up the point of having another objective closer to the enemy gates in order to launch attacks for scroll runs? Why do you have to change the subject. If something bothers you about my opinion you can just move on, is it threatening to you that we have an objective closer to your base? Are you scared that since Roebeck is so impenetrable and Ash and Aleswell and Chalman are so accesible with hills all over, that if there is an objective closer to your home keeps you just won't be able to cope? Why don't you start your own thread about how vulnerable you feel?

Back to the real subject, what's wrong with you? Who wouldn't want to fight in Chorrol? I can imagine the epic fights there, people being speared into the lava... and Cheydinhal, impregnable ancient walls, a city in ruin with rivers dividing, perfect for small scale fights.

If this is all about "balance" then in addition to Cheydinhal and Chorrol (roughly equivalent in position to Vlastarus and Cropsford), we also need equivalents to Bruma which sits in between DC and EP.

My preferred solution would be to move Vlastarus and Cropsford northward until they are in the same sort of map position Bruma occupies. Bruma sees the best fights of the three towns, with both EP and DC fighting for the flags and the spawn points to control the nearby outpost and keep, and launch raids deep into the enemy home keeps. If Cropsford were moved up between Sejanus and Drakelowe, and Vlastarus moved up between Nikel and Brindle, ALL 3 factions would have a town in exactly the same position with the same level of threat for their home keeps.

But realistically, I have no hope that ZOS will update Cyrodiil's map when they can't even nail down Cyrodiil's persistent performance issues.

bpmachete

@VaranisArano I agree with you that in order to be exact balance in the positions that should be the case. I however accept the location of the towns as close to the lore of Cyrodiil and think that DC and EP invading Cyrodiil from the North would naturally have more entrenched positions. The towns that exist however could all become capture points, this way there would be more spawn points and more flanking potential as we have seen happen when they made the first three towns capturable. It has been a great addition and I just really believe it's a matter of time until they make Chorrol and Cheydinhal capturable as well, even if technically it won't be that perfect balance you speak of, it would help to flank the enemy, and makes sense overall that all five main Towns be capture points. It would create new strengths and weeknesses and would be fun for sure as you well said Bruma makes for good fights cause of the lay out, can you imagine Chorrol and Cheydinhal?

Brrrofski

The problem with them is there's not a town near AD.

So make them where you can respawn favourites AD massively.

Make them something else (no respawn) like AP boost or something and AD lose out.

idk

bpmachete wrote: »

It's time to add Chorrol and Cheydinhal to the objectives to at least stem the inbalance/quote]

How would this stem any imbalance?

VaranisArano

bpmachete wrote: »

@VaranisArano I agree with you that in order to be exact balance in the positions that should be the case. I however accept the location of the towns as close to the lore of Cyrodiil and think that DC and EP invading Cyrodiil from the North would naturally have more entrenched positions. The towns that exist however could all become capture points, this way there would be more spawn points and more flanking potential as we have seen happen when they made the first three towns capturable. It has been a great addition and I just really believe it's a matter of time until they make Chorrol and Cheydinhal capturable as well, even if technically it won't be that perfect balance you speak of, it would help to flank the enemy, and makes sense overall that all five main Towns be capture points. It would create new strengths and weeknesses and would be fun for sure as you well said Bruma makes for good fights cause of the lay out, can you imagine Chorrol and Cheydinhal?

Sorry, no. Bruma threatens far more territory on both the back field and the emp ring than any of the other towns. Its position makes it a key battleground, not the mere fact that it has flags. That's why I advocate moving the other towns to a similar equally threatening position on the other parts of the map (not that this will ever happen.)

Chorrol and Cheydinhal would see limited battles, just like Cropsford and Vlastarus do now. Those towns threaten limited territory near the scrolls.

So you can add Chorrol and Cheydinhal to balance out Vlastarus and Cropsford, sure. But that leaves Bruma the odd one out. We'd need two new towns between Nikel-Brindle and Sejanus-Drakelowe to actually have balance.

Look, if you just want more fights, Chorrol and Cheydinhal are a good addition. But if you want balance in the positioning of factional towns, this doesnt solve that issue. I don't think you should complain about "imbalance" in town positioning and suggest a solution that leaves Cyrodiil's towns imbalanced.

If you actually want a balanced map for towns, either we need 3 equally positioned towns (like Bruma instead of the current positioning which hampers AD) or we need 2 more added to the existing 5.

Joy_Division

bpmachete wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

bpmachete wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

bpmachete wrote: »

White wabbit wrote: »

Thanks but no I don't think this is the answer to fixing cryodill

Because?

Because AD's main issue is spending their time looking for excuses to explain their losses rather than spending their time analyzing what they can do better.

They do love that whole "we're screwed because of the two town" theory. But ignore that their two Emp ring keeps are geographically blessed for defense - Alessia is an AP generating farm on its own how EP funnels to the Front Door and there aren't any hills attackers can siege Roe from safety (meanwhile Aleswell has two and Chalman one).

What? I made no excuse for any faction.

This theory of yours on the other hand about the keeps being geographically blessed for defense is false on so many levels. Alessia has the farm where you can seige from and also the Mine side is blessed to seige. Roebeck can be attacked from all sides and there are spawn points at every angle against it.

Again no excuses, but the terrain to attack the lowlands is favorable for offense, no mountains and flat terrain everywhere to place camps, while the higher lands are more mountainous and harder to reach and traverse. That's fine, I like the variety and advantages and disadvantages of Cyrodiil. It's a master piece.

I think that the journey to travel to the Gates of the opposing alliances in the highlands is a far farther ride and having the towns to make a push towards the gates will be a great addition when they implement it. Remember with no towns how it was to go get the scrolls, the ride was greater. For DC and EP having those towns could also benefit them to launch attacks from and also it's only on one side you would have to watch for the invasion of the towns, as Bruma is in the middle and is not as beneficial to reach the gates for Scroll runs. The towns could be captured by any faction and serve dual purposes for attack and defense as if one of the home keeps being attacked capturing the town can help get another spawn point to ride from. On the northern side DC and EP won't have to watch for invasions close to their gates.

I think it's gonna be great when they add it and PvP will be less predictable.

Roebeck is not harder to defend than Aleswell or Chalman.

Edit: to be more specific, attackers cannot set up mass siege on cliff face and siege with virtually impunity on Roe. They can do this in two spots at Aleswell, with both spot choking a potential counter-attacking force.

If Alessia Farm side was on the North side (i.e. where EP approaches), then I would agree that would be a disadvantage. But in fact it faces toward AD's spawnpoint, which makes it quite convenient for AD PuGs when they have to take it back and means 90% of the time, AD has an APfest at the front door.

But that's besides the point, you said there was an imbalance, which sounds like an excuse to me, because of the towns and tried to rationalize how this was disadvantageous to AD, which also sounds like an excuse. And now you're trying to rationalize how having no over-sighting hills around a castle is a disadvantage? Go to Europe someday and visit the castles. When you do, be prepared to walk up hills and not down them.

There is an imbalance in the map layout which is natural for that to exist, as it creates tension and immersion each side rationalizing who should be the victor and why.

I disagree with you that Aleswell is harder to defend and just because there is a plateau at Alesswell you are taking over the thread with this perception of yours. The DC side is up hill. First you have to go from Roe up to Ash which has a mountain covering an entire side where you have to do huge flank to go on the other side. Then you would go down towards Aleswell. You can also climb towards the home keeps. The mountains also dont allow you to set up camps.

My question is why you are taking over this thread talking about Alessia and Roebeck which acording to you are the most incredible keeps and so well protected, when I brought up the point of having another objective closer to the enemy gates in order to launch attacks for scroll runs? Why do you have to change the subject. If something bothers you about my opinion you can just move on, is it threatening to you that we have an objective closer to your base? Are you scared that since Roebeck is so impenetrable and Ash and Aleswell and Chalman are so accesible with hills all over, that if there is an objective closer to your home keeps you just won't be able to cope? Why don't you start your own thread about how vulnerable you feel?

Back to the real subject, what's wrong with you? Who wouldn't want to fight in Chorrol? I can imagine the epic fights there, people being speared into the lava... and Cheydinhal, impregnable ancient walls, a city in ruin with rivers dividing, perfect for small scale fights.

What's wrong with me is the same thing wrong with you: I disagree with your assessment and the posts get longer the more I disagree with them. Just like yours does.

If you don't like that, not sure what to expect when asking "what's wrong with you". It was you who asked people to clarify why they don't agree with your posts: Please read your response in #4.

The main reason I'd rather not ZOS do what you asked is because I can and did literally list 101 things that are more impactful in making PvPing every night a frustrating experience.

The other reason is your post is similar to the dozens of others that have come up by AD players, blaming the map, blaming the "purple alliance," blaming spies, blaming everything and everyone except for themselves for why they lose campaigns. Now you're here, a one-star forum poster, claiming to know how the map plays, what's harder to defend and what's not. OK, humor me here. Tell me what you game name is so I know who I'm discussing this with. How long have you been playing? What experience do you have running with organized groups trying to play that map? How much play time have you had on DC, EP, and AD trying to defend these keeps? Which server do you tend to play on (the pop-locked zerg or a 2 bar with emperor trading shenanigans)?

Just about every regular who PvPs has asked ZOS for years - years! - to add more objectives. That is not is dispute. What is very much in dispute is if for some miracles sake they decided to anoint 1% of their budget to changing and improving Cyrodiil's map, the last thing I would want them to do is take the lazy route, which is precisely what you are suggesting: sticking some flags in a random pre-determined place chosen only because something was already there.

bpmachete

idk wrote: »

bpmachete wrote: »

It's time to add Chorrol and Cheydinhal to the objectives to at least stem the imbalance/quote]

How would this stem any imbalance?

Because lets say My faction is gated and I manage to escape the players inside the gates wating for people to come out of the spawn, I can only go by myself to capture a spawn point quickly in the three towns, which two are located on the south close to AD and only one in the north between DC and EP.

Another way would be if I were to open the enemy gates to capture their scrolls, and then we are headed away from the gates and we are attacked and some of the group is killed, having the town to spawn in in the path of the get away helps us regroup to continue taking the scroll. This only happens on AD side as of now.

The faction stacking going on which is part of the imbalance having more spawn points a small number of players can capture and fight for helps there to be other places where we could spawn at if killed and not just those three.

There are various reasons. I can think of more.

bpmachete

VaranisArano wrote: »

bpmachete wrote: »

@VaranisArano I agree with you that in order to be exact balance in the positions that should be the case. I however accept the location of the towns as close to the lore of Cyrodiil and think that DC and EP invading Cyrodiil from the North would naturally have more entrenched positions. The towns that exist however could all become capture points, this way there would be more spawn points and more flanking potential as we have seen happen when they made the first three towns capturable. It has been a great addition and I just really believe it's a matter of time until they make Chorrol and Cheydinhal capturable as well, even if technically it won't be that perfect balance you speak of, it would help to flank the enemy, and makes sense overall that all five main Towns be capture points. It would create new strengths and weeknesses and would be fun for sure as you well said Bruma makes for good fights cause of the lay out, can you imagine Chorrol and Cheydinhal?

Sorry, no. Bruma threatens far more territory on both the back field and the emp ring than any of the other towns. Its position makes it a key battleground, not the mere fact that it has flags. That's why I advocate moving the other towns to a similar equally threatening position on the other parts of the map (not that this will ever happen.)

Chorrol and Cheydinhal would see limited battles, just like Cropsford and Vlastarus do now. Those towns threaten limited territory near the scrolls.

So you can add Chorrol and Cheydinhal to balance out Vlastarus and Cropsford, sure. But that leaves Bruma the odd one out. We'd need two new towns between Nikel-Brindle and Sejanus-Drakelowe to actually have balance.

Look, if you just want more fights, Chorrol and Cheydinhal are a good addition. But if you want balance in the positioning of factional towns, this doesnt solve that issue. I don't think you should complain about "imbalance" in town positioning and suggest a solution that leaves Cyrodiil's towns imbalanced.

If you actually want a balanced map for towns, either we need 3 equally positioned towns (like Bruma instead of the current positioning which hampers AD) or we need 2 more added to the existing 5.

I highly dissagree that Bruma threatens more territory than Crops and Vlas. There is a short distance between Crops and Vlas to keeps one to the edge of map, one to the emp ring, one to the trikeep point and one to the home keep. This is on both sides of the AD home bases.
Bruma threatens the small outpost and two emp keeps and one to the edge that is shared by the two factions, but the terrain is way different and you cannot make a straight line to Chalman, there is a mountain in the way and you can make somewhat of a straight like to Aleswell, but the terain is way different and there is the north cut off so there is a choke point to it as well. It barely threatens the home keeps because of the distance, its much farther from the gates than Crops and Vlas, and its rare when it helps with the scroll run.

I do want more fights and it would just be better for the game and a single player could go and capture something far away from an alliance that has them gated, not so close to the emp ring. If AD is gated you go for the towns they could get there fast, also in Bruma, but Chorrol and Cheydinhal would be more out of the way, and could help people escape.

bpmachete

Joy_Division wrote: »

bpmachete wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

bpmachete wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

bpmachete wrote: »

White wabbit wrote: »

Thanks but no I don't think this is the answer to fixing cryodill

Because?

Because AD's main issue is spending their time looking for excuses to explain their losses rather than spending their time analyzing what they can do better.

They do love that whole "we're screwed because of the two town" theory. But ignore that their two Emp ring keeps are geographically blessed for defense - Alessia is an AP generating farm on its own how EP funnels to the Front Door and there aren't any hills attackers can siege Roe from safety (meanwhile Aleswell has two and Chalman one).

What? I made no excuse for any faction.

This theory of yours on the other hand about the keeps being geographically blessed for defense is false on so many levels. Alessia has the farm where you can seige from and also the Mine side is blessed to seige. Roebeck can be attacked from all sides and there are spawn points at every angle against it.

Again no excuses, but the terrain to attack the lowlands is favorable for offense, no mountains and flat terrain everywhere to place camps, while the higher lands are more mountainous and harder to reach and traverse. That's fine, I like the variety and advantages and disadvantages of Cyrodiil. It's a master piece.

I think that the journey to travel to the Gates of the opposing alliances in the highlands is a far farther ride and having the towns to make a push towards the gates will be a great addition when they implement it. Remember with no towns how it was to go get the scrolls, the ride was greater. For DC and EP having those towns could also benefit them to launch attacks from and also it's only on one side you would have to watch for the invasion of the towns, as Bruma is in the middle and is not as beneficial to reach the gates for Scroll runs. The towns could be captured by any faction and serve dual purposes for attack and defense as if one of the home keeps being attacked capturing the town can help get another spawn point to ride from. On the northern side DC and EP won't have to watch for invasions close to their gates.

I think it's gonna be great when they add it and PvP will be less predictable.

Roebeck is not harder to defend than Aleswell or Chalman.

Edit: to be more specific, attackers cannot set up mass siege on cliff face and siege with virtually impunity on Roe. They can do this in two spots at Aleswell, with both spot choking a potential counter-attacking force.

If Alessia Farm side was on the North side (i.e. where EP approaches), then I would agree that would be a disadvantage. But in fact it faces toward AD's spawnpoint, which makes it quite convenient for AD PuGs when they have to take it back and means 90% of the time, AD has an APfest at the front door.

But that's besides the point, you said there was an imbalance, which sounds like an excuse to me, because of the towns and tried to rationalize how this was disadvantageous to AD, which also sounds like an excuse. And now you're trying to rationalize how having no over-sighting hills around a castle is a disadvantage? Go to Europe someday and visit the castles. When you do, be prepared to walk up hills and not down them.

There is an imbalance in the map layout which is natural for that to exist, as it creates tension and immersion each side rationalizing who should be the victor and why.

I disagree with you that Aleswell is harder to defend and just because there is a plateau at Alesswell you are taking over the thread with this perception of yours. The DC side is up hill. First you have to go from Roe up to Ash which has a mountain covering an entire side where you have to do huge flank to go on the other side. Then you would go down towards Aleswell. You can also climb towards the home keeps. The mountains also dont allow you to set up camps.

My question is why you are taking over this thread talking about Alessia and Roebeck which acording to you are the most incredible keeps and so well protected, when I brought up the point of having another objective closer to the enemy gates in order to launch attacks for scroll runs? Why do you have to change the subject. If something bothers you about my opinion you can just move on, is it threatening to you that we have an objective closer to your base? Are you scared that since Roebeck is so impenetrable and Ash and Aleswell and Chalman are so accesible with hills all over, that if there is an objective closer to your home keeps you just won't be able to cope? Why don't you start your own thread about how vulnerable you feel?

Back to the real subject, what's wrong with you? Who wouldn't want to fight in Chorrol? I can imagine the epic fights there, people being speared into the lava... and Cheydinhal, impregnable ancient walls, a city in ruin with rivers dividing, perfect for small scale fights.

What's wrong with me is the same thing wrong with you: I disagree with your assessment and the posts get longer the more I disagree with them. Just like yours does.

If you don't like that, not sure what to expect when asking "what's wrong with you". It was you who asked people to clarify why they don't agree with your posts: Please read your response in #4.

The main reason I'd rather not ZOS do what you asked is because I can and did literally list 101 things that are more impactful in making PvPing every night a frustrating experience.

The other reason is your post is similar to the dozens of others that have come up by AD players, blaming the map, blaming the "purple alliance," blaming spies, blaming everything and everyone except for themselves for why they lose campaigns. Now you're here, a one-star forum poster, claiming to know how the map plays, what's harder to defend and what's not. OK, humor me here. Tell me what you game name is so I know who I'm discussing this with. How long have you been playing? What experience do you have running with organized groups trying to play that map? How much play time have you had on DC, EP, and AD trying to defend these keeps? Which server do you tend to play on (the pop-locked zerg or a 2 bar with emperor trading shenanigans)?

Just about every regular who PvPs has asked ZOS for years - years! - to add more objectives. That is not is dispute. What is very much in dispute is if for some miracles sake they decided to anoint 1% of their budget to changing and improving Cyrodiil's map, the last thing I would want them to do is take the lazy route, which is precisely what you are suggesting: sticking some flags in a random pre-determined place chosen only because something was already there.

Just because I never got the proper invite to the forum and I had not posted doesn't mean I have not been checking them all the while. I also am not saying anything about myself, nor was this idea some ground breaking new thing I am saying, it's an obvious addition they should make, which I know has been stated before and even more elaborately, including capturing Estates linked to the towns and spawn points all over.

What I said is that it's time to do it now. I play in the campaigns that are locked all the time the most full, and like I said it has become predictable. The towns play a roll in that and I would like to see the addition of other spawn points I could capture so it won't be as predictable. I dont care how many stars you have in posting, come fight in Cyrodiil, if you got Xbox lets go, you always talking to me like I did smething to you, now I really want to. You come to the thread talking about excuses and about me like anyone cares and don't add anything constructive, nor did you explain why you don't want the towns to be capturable, only that they should work on other things first. Let them work on it and later do it then I don't care, but seriously if you just want to hijack the post because of your forum star superiority and obvious disdain for AD, go do it somewhere else. We are talking about the town man, not me but come see me if you want when ever you want.

VaranisArano

bpmachete wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

bpmachete wrote: »

@VaranisArano I agree with you that in order to be exact balance in the positions that should be the case. I however accept the location of the towns as close to the lore of Cyrodiil and think that DC and EP invading Cyrodiil from the North would naturally have more entrenched positions. The towns that exist however could all become capture points, this way there would be more spawn points and more flanking potential as we have seen happen when they made the first three towns capturable. It has been a great addition and I just really believe it's a matter of time until they make Chorrol and Cheydinhal capturable as well, even if technically it won't be that perfect balance you speak of, it would help to flank the enemy, and makes sense overall that all five main Towns be capture points. It would create new strengths and weeknesses and would be fun for sure as you well said Bruma makes for good fights cause of the lay out, can you imagine Chorrol and Cheydinhal?

Sorry, no. Bruma threatens far more territory on both the back field and the emp ring than any of the other towns. Its position makes it a key battleground, not the mere fact that it has flags. That's why I advocate moving the other towns to a similar equally threatening position on the other parts of the map (not that this will ever happen.)

Chorrol and Cheydinhal would see limited battles, just like Cropsford and Vlastarus do now. Those towns threaten limited territory near the scrolls.

So you can add Chorrol and Cheydinhal to balance out Vlastarus and Cropsford, sure. But that leaves Bruma the odd one out. We'd need two new towns between Nikel-Brindle and Sejanus-Drakelowe to actually have balance.

Look, if you just want more fights, Chorrol and Cheydinhal are a good addition. But if you want balance in the positioning of factional towns, this doesnt solve that issue. I don't think you should complain about "imbalance" in town positioning and suggest a solution that leaves Cyrodiil's towns imbalanced.

If you actually want a balanced map for towns, either we need 3 equally positioned towns (like Bruma instead of the current positioning which hampers AD) or we need 2 more added to the existing 5.

I highly dissagre that Bruma threatens more territory than Crops and Vlas. There is a short distance between Crops and Vlas to keeps one to the edge of map, one to the emp ring, one to the trikeep point and one to the home keep. This is on both sides of the AD home bases.
Bruma threatens the small outpost and two emp keeps and one to the edge that is shared by the two factions, but the terrain is way different and you cannot make a straight line to Chalman, there is a mountain in the way and you can make somewhat of a straight like to Aleswell, but the terain is way different and there is the north cut off so there is a choke point to it as well. It barely threatens the home keeps because of the distance, its much farther from the gates than Crops and Vlas, and its rate when it helps with the scroll run.

I do want more fights and it would just be better for the game and a single player could go and capture something far away from an alliance that has them gated, not so close to the emp ring. If AD is gated you go for the towns they could get there fast, also in Bruma, but Chorrol and Cheydinhal would be more out of the way, and could help people escape.

I'm glad to see you being honest about wanting more fights instead of trying to make this about "balance". Your solution works to create more fights, but does a poor job of balancing the map.

My assessment of Bruma is based on it constantly being used as a staging point for deep pushes against Warden and Kingscrest, as well at Bleakers being a pretty pivotal part of the constant Aleswell to Chapman fighting. There is regular fighting at Bruma, much more than I ever see at Cropsford. (I'm on PC/NA Vivec, so your campaign may differ)Bruma threatens EP and DC territory equally compared to Cropsford, which threatens much more AD territory than it does EP, which was part of the original complaint.

But frankly, I don't think we're going to convince each other. I think your solution leaves an unbalanced map, which seems to me to just perpetuate the problem of alliances complaining about town placement. ZOS isn't likely to move towns the way I want even though I think that would generate more evenly positioned fights the way Bruma does.

Edited to clarify a few points.

bpmachete

VaranisArano wrote: »

bpmachete wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

bpmachete wrote: »

@VaranisArano I agree with you that in order to be exact balance in the positions that should be the case. I however accept the location of the towns as close to the lore of Cyrodiil and think that DC and EP invading Cyrodiil from the North would naturally have more entrenched positions. The towns that exist however could all become capture points, this way there would be more spawn points and more flanking potential as we have seen happen when they made the first three towns capturable. It has been a great addition and I just really believe it's a matter of time until they make Chorrol and Cheydinhal capturable as well, even if technically it won't be that perfect balance you speak of, it would help to flank the enemy, and makes sense overall that all five main Towns be capture points. It would create new strengths and weeknesses and would be fun for sure as you well said Bruma makes for good fights cause of the lay out, can you imagine Chorrol and Cheydinhal?

Sorry, no. Bruma threatens far more territory on both the back field and the emp ring than any of the other towns. Its position makes it a key battleground, not the mere fact that it has flags. That's why I advocate moving the other towns to a similar equally threatening position on the other parts of the map (not that this will ever happen.)

Chorrol and Cheydinhal would see limited battles, just like Cropsford and Vlastarus do now. Those towns threaten limited territory near the scrolls.

So you can add Chorrol and Cheydinhal to balance out Vlastarus and Cropsford, sure. But that leaves Bruma the odd one out. We'd need two new towns between Nikel-Brindle and Sejanus-Drakelowe to actually have balance.

Look, if you just want more fights, Chorrol and Cheydinhal are a good addition. But if you want balance in the positioning of factional towns, this doesnt solve that issue. I don't think you should complain about "imbalance" in town positioning and suggest a solution that leaves Cyrodiil's towns imbalanced.

If you actually want a balanced map for towns, either we need 3 equally positioned towns (like Bruma instead of the current positioning which hampers AD) or we need 2 more added to the existing 5.

I highly dissagre that Bruma threatens more territory than Crops and Vlas. There is a short distance between Crops and Vlas to keeps one to the edge of map, one to the emp ring, one to the trikeep point and one to the home keep. This is on both sides of the AD home bases.
Bruma threatens the small outpost and two emp keeps and one to the edge that is shared by the two factions, but the terrain is way different and you cannot make a straight line to Chalman, there is a mountain in the way and you can make somewhat of a straight like to Aleswell, but the terain is way different and there is the north cut off so there is a choke point to it as well. It barely threatens the home keeps because of the distance, its much farther from the gates than Crops and Vlas, and its rate when it helps with the scroll run.

I do want more fights and it would just be better for the game and a single player could go and capture something far away from an alliance that has them gated, not so close to the emp ring. If AD is gated you go for the towns they could get there fast, also in Bruma, but Chorrol and Cheydinhal would be more out of the way, and could help people escape.

I'm glad to see you being honest about wanting more fights instead of trying to make this about "balance". Your solution works to create more fights, but does a poor job of balancing the map.

My assessment of Bruma is based on it constantly being used as a staging point for deep pushes against Warden and Kingscrest, as well at Bleakers being a pretty pivotal part of the constant Aleswell to Chapman fighting. There is regular fighting at Bruma, much more than I ever see at Cropsford. (I'm on PC/NA Vivec, so your campaign may differ)Bruma threatens EP and DC territory equally compared to Cropsford, which threatens much more AD territory than it does EP, which was part of the original complaint.

But frankly, I don't think we're going to convince each other. I think your solution leaves an unbalanced map, which seems to me to just perpetuate the problem of alliances complaining about town placement. ZOS isn't likely to move towns the way I want even though I think that would generate more evenly positioned fights the way Bruma does.

Edited to clarify a few points.

Man I would love if they did what you are saying, that would be fine by me and I said that to be perfectly balanced that should be the case, but that adding the two towns would approximate this. There could be attacks on Sej and Nikel springing from Chorrol and Cheydinhal.

Feanor

Joy_Division wrote: »

bpmachete wrote: »

White wabbit wrote: »

Thanks but no I don't think this is the answer to fixing cryodill

Because?

Because AD's main issue is spending their time looking for excuses to explain their losses rather than spending their time analyzing what they can do better.

[...]

Alessia is an AP generating farm on its own how EP funnels to the Front Door ...

I find that quite ironic. I mean, it’s not like you couldn’t siege from Alessia farm - where you also have the terrain advantage.

And yes, AD is screwed by town placement. There simply are more spots to defend, and the towns are great for Drake and Brindle attacks.

VaranisArano

Feanor wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

bpmachete wrote: »

White wabbit wrote: »

Thanks but no I don't think this is the answer to fixing cryodill

Because?

Because AD's main issue is spending their time looking for excuses to explain their losses rather than spending their time analyzing what they can do better.

[...]

Alessia is an AP generating farm on its own how EP funnels to the Front Door ...

I find that quite ironic. I mean, it’s not like you couldn’t siege from Alessia farm - where you also have the terrain advantage.

Potatoes are gonna potato. Alessia's front door is as irresistible to EP potatoes as Chalman Mine is to DC potatoes. The more sensible players facepalm and move to siege from better placements.

bpmachete

Feanor wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

bpmachete wrote: »

White wabbit wrote: »

Thanks but no I don't think this is the answer to fixing cryodill

Because?

Because AD's main issue is spending their time looking for excuses to explain their losses rather than spending their time analyzing what they can do better.

[...]

Alessia is an AP generating farm on its own how EP funnels to the Front Door ...

I find that quite ironic. I mean, it’s not like you couldn’t siege from Alessia farm - where you also have the terrain advantage.

And yes, AD is screwed by town placement. There simply are more spots to defend, and the towns are great for Drake and Brindle attacks.

Besides this, what do you think about having Cheydinhal and Chorrol be towns we could capture.

The more I think about it the more I really want it to happen, not just cause of the imbalance, but because there would be epic fights there. If they do both these towns differently in the flag placement, more similar to the new Battle Grounds map that you can mount on, with the Lava separation mattering and the River in Cheydinhal mattering, they could make these the best towns yet.

Joy_Division

Feanor wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

bpmachete wrote: »

White wabbit wrote: »

Thanks but no I don't think this is the answer to fixing cryodill

Because?

Because AD's main issue is spending their time looking for excuses to explain their losses rather than spending their time analyzing what they can do better.

[...]

Alessia is an AP generating farm on its own how EP funnels to the Front Door ...

I find that quite ironic. I mean, it’s not like you couldn’t siege from Alessia farm - where you also have the terrain advantage.

And yes, AD is screwed by town placement. There simply are more spots to defend, and the towns are great for Drake and Brindle attacks.

The majority of EP hasn't quite figured out that Alessia can be sieged from the farm.

Never said EP were strategic geniuses. Alessia front door and DC holding Chalman are by far the biggest headaches. But on the whole when those two objectives are not involved, EP usually does the right thing, especially on a tactical level - at least the ones on PC NA Vivec are by far the best at things like keeping an breech tagged, laying down camps in reasonably useful positions, making coherent calls in zone, Guarding the home outer keep (Drake is not an AD keep by the way. Should EP complain about Bruma threatening Dragonclaw as AD does Cropsford and Drake?), and probably having more 5 stars than the other two alliances put together.

But you play on EU so, what does this all matter to you? Open up an account here and you'll soon see for yourself why AD tends to struggle on the scoreboard. Too often PvDooring Farragut in a failed farm attempts, too many single players focused on snipe builds and a lot of not very good NBs (probably because of the races), guilds that don't cooperate as much as they could. Really didn't help when a hysterical tin-foil hat type made so much noise in zone chat that it was hard to have useful guidance for ungrouped players My guild rolled to AD so we see the contrast first-hand.

AD used to be the strongest NA faction, by quite a bit actually. Still a lot of good players. Still a lot of players who care and want to win. PvP would be a lot more interesting if the faction got their act together. I hold the opinion that as long as people on that faction find solace in excuses as an answer for why things go wrong, that won't happen.

The devs ought to take a closer look at the map and put some thought in placing some objectives that have an actual purpose, but they have't done that basically since Launch. So we just got to deal with the map as it is

bpmachete

Joy_Division wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

bpmachete wrote: »

White wabbit wrote: »

Thanks but no I don't think this is the answer to fixing cryodill

Because?

Because AD's main issue is spending their time looking for excuses to explain their losses rather than spending their time analyzing what they can do better.

[...]

Alessia is an AP generating farm on its own how EP funnels to the Front Door ...

I find that quite ironic. I mean, it’s not like you couldn’t siege from Alessia farm - where you also have the terrain advantage.

And yes, AD is screwed by town placement. There simply are more spots to defend, and the towns are great for Drake and Brindle attacks.

The majority of EP hasn't quite figured out that Alessia can be sieged from the farm.

Never said EP were strategic geniuses. Alessia front door and DC holding Chalman are by far the biggest headaches. But on the whole when those two objectives are not involved, EP usually does the right thing, especially on a tactical level - at least the ones on PC NA Vivec are by far the best at things like keeping an breech tagged, laying down camps in reasonably useful positions, making coherent calls in zone, Guarding the home outer keep (Drake is not an AD keep by the way. Should EP complain about Bruma threatening Dragonclaw as AD does Cropsford and Drake?), and probably having more 5 stars than the other two alliances put together.

But you play on EU so, what does this all matter to you? Open up an account here and you'll soon see for yourself why AD tends to struggle on the scoreboard. Too often PvDooring Farragut in a failed farm attempts, too many single players focused on snipe builds and a lot of not very good NBs (probably because of the races), guilds that don't cooperate as much as they could. Really didn't help when a hysterical tin-foil hat type made so much noise in zone chat that it was hard to have useful guidance for ungrouped players My guild rolled to AD so we see the contrast first-hand.

AD used to be the strongest NA faction, by quite a bit actually. Still a lot of good players. Still a lot of players who care and want to win. PvP would be a lot more interesting if the faction got their act together. I hold the opinion that as long as people on that faction find solace in excuses as an answer for why things go wrong, that won't happen.

The devs ought to take a closer look at the map and put some thought in placing some objectives that have an actual purpose, but they have't done that basically since Launch. So we just got to deal with the map as it is

Thing is that Crops threatens Drake and thats it, maybe BRK but not Arrius and Farragut at all in comparison to Faregyl and Bloodmayne.

Anyway, I agree with you that AD has work to do and this is Xbox NA and it's similar to what you are describing with the factions. I think that the two new towns Chorrol and Cheydinhal being objectives will let some of the strenghts of the factions shine if they don't have the numbers, because one player can take a town and provide a new spawn point and angle for wiped groups to spawn at and create new strategies for all factions. That's why since many players have settled in their factions and the strategies have been figured out to the point that they attract better players and have the system down on how to win, throwing these towns into the mix now or as soon as they can will make PvP much better giving smaller Alliances more spawn points where they can attack faster to more locations. They are bigger but maybe a smaller force could do better if they had these smaller objectives they can take and maybe even defend against bigger groups that come with a divided force. Because of the layout of the towns, it could be a great place for a smaller group to wipe a bigger group. It depends where they place the flags, if they do it right, bigger groups would be vulnerable crossing hemmed-in-ground over lava and water.

bpmachete

I was thinking about this and it could also help with the fact that there are always people looking for small scale fights and the towns lend themselves for this type of gaming.