Main quest lore question. The Vestige

Icaruzs

So we are killed by cultist and our soul is sent to coldharbour, and imprisioned in a soul gem.

Our mortal body is discarted, and molag bal creates another one (exactly as the first body) to work for him as a slave.

The questions are:

Why he created this body exactly as the old one? Was rly molag bal that created it? (the body that we play the game)

Why we are not mindless slaves as others we encounter in coldharbour?

What are the cons of not having a soul and not just being a walking body? Because it's seen like you have a perfect mind (able to think) and do normal stuff with the protagonist.

LifenLemons

Not 100% related, but I for one would have like some distinction between the soulless players and those who got theirs back. It's a long journey and I don't think the end "prize" is just. I did enjoy it, but I will never do it again unlike some other quests.

Skillasaurus88

Basically the Soul Shriven are created from daedric essence (the blue water in coldharbour). They age and shrivel, slowly go mindless, then die and regenerate to do it all again.
Shriven also have their souls captured and are recreated as they were. Same as the Vestige.

The difference between a Shriven and Vestige is basically that a Vestige is a 1 in a billion rarity that gets to keep its sanity. Luck of the draw.

Molag Bal did indeed create our character. Why? To be his unwitting champion. Even by fighting him we are doing his bidding. Layers of genius

Bonus fact #1 being soulless renders you immune to all necromancy.

Bonus fact #2 Varen attuned your soul to Mundus, in effect making you immortal not only in coldharbour but Tamriel as well (also why we can use wayshrines and NPCs cant lorewise).

Fun fact of the day: skyshards grant you skill points because they are fragments of your "original" life. Trippy.

Skillasaurus88

Also other players are justified as it being a Dragon Break, so we all are unique but exist concurrently. Lazy or great writing? Bit of both :P

eco_TR

You should have taken the red pill

PrayingSeraph

Skillasaurus88 wrote: »

Also other players are justified as it being a Dragon Break, so we all are unique but exist concurrently. Lazy or great writing? Bit of both :P

Ugh no just no

Ghanima_Atreides

Skillasaurus88 wrote: »

Basically the Soul Shriven are created from daedric essence (the blue water in coldharbour). They age and shrivel, slowly go mindless, then die and regenerate to do it all again.
Shriven also have their souls captured and are recreated as they were. Same as the Vestige.

The difference between a Shriven and Vestige is basically that a Vestige is a 1 in a billion rarity that gets to keep its sanity. Luck of the draw.

Not completely true. You find many other soulless prisoners in Coldharbour who are not yet insane, such as the Khajiit who gives you a tip as to how to breach Mannimarco's fortress or the Dunmer lady in the Village of the Lost. Basically, the longer you stay there, the more your sanity begins to slip away due to the hard work and torture; the player escapes almost as soon as they are captured, but there are some that managed to hold on to their sanity for many years, perhaps centuries (time is funny in Oblivion).

adriant1978

You can read about the special nature of the Vestige compared to other Soul Shriven here.

"What follows is speculation, born of conversations with the Sojourner during his infrequent and unpredictable visits. His theory is that the Soul Shriven's bodies are flawed because they have lost the focusing principle of their Anuic souls, so their vestiges are imperfect patterns. I concurred that this was likely, and then proposed the theoretical possibility of a Soul Shriven who, despite having lost his or her soul, possessed some other intrinsic Anuic aspect. This shall-we-say "paragon" Soul Shriven would form an unflawed body in Coldharbour that was a perfect duplicate of the body worn in Mundus. In fact, if this paragon bore a sufficiently high Anuic valence, upon contact with Padomaic creatia its body would form almost instantaneously.

The Sojourner scoffed at my theory, but seemed taken with the idea nonetheless. He went on to speculate that if such a thing were possible, it would probably occur in a situation where the Mundus was in existential jeopardy. In that case the Heart of Nirn would spontaneously generate such "paragon" individuals as a way of defending itself from destruction, in a manner analogous to the way the mortal body fights off infection."

Eporem

adriant1978 wrote: »

You can read about the special nature of the Vestige compared to other Soul Shriven here.

"What follows is speculation, born of conversations with the Sojourner during his infrequent and unpredictable visits. His theory is that the Soul Shriven's bodies are flawed because they have lost the focusing principle of their Anuic souls, so their vestiges are imperfect patterns. I concurred that this was likely, and then proposed the theoretical possibility of a Soul Shriven who, despite having lost his or her soul, possessed some other intrinsic Anuic aspect. This shall-we-say "paragon" Soul Shriven would form an unflawed body in Coldharbour that was a perfect duplicate of the body worn in Mundus. In fact, if this paragon bore a sufficiently high Anuic valence, upon contact with Padomaic creatia its body would form almost instantaneously.

The Sojourner scoffed at my theory, but seemed taken with the idea nonetheless. He went on to speculate that if such a thing were possible, it would probably occur in a situation where the Mundus was in existential jeopardy. In that case the Heart of Nirn would spontaneously generate such "paragon" individuals as a way of defending itself from destruction, in a manner analogous to the way the mortal body fights off infection."

Would just like to add that these theories seemed to be proven correct from this:

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Soul_Shriven

Rebellion of the Soulless Ones

These theories were seemingly proven correct, as in 2E 579 Molag Bal began an attempt to meld his plane of Oblivion with Nirn to create a single nightmarish realm.[10] In response, countless numbers of Soul Shriven individuals imprisoned in Coldharbour were revealed to bear these exceptional Anuic qualities. Led by the half-giant, Lyris Titanborn, they rose up against their captors in 2E 582 and escaped the realm to combat the Daedric threat, as foretold by the Elder Scrolls.[9][10]

Kotusha

Icaruzs wrote: »

What are the cons of not having a soul and not just being a walking body? Because it's seen like you have a perfect mind (able to think) and do normal stuff with the protagonist.

Aside from not being able to die and go to the Dreamsleeve/Plane of the daedra you worship, I haven't noticed any cons.

Kaktus

adriant1978 wrote: »

You can read about the special nature of the Vestige compared to other Soul Shriven here.

"What follows is speculation, born of conversations with the Sojourner during his infrequent and unpredictable visits. His theory is that the Soul Shriven's bodies are flawed because they have lost the focusing principle of their Anuic souls, so their vestiges are imperfect patterns. I concurred that this was likely, and then proposed the theoretical possibility of a Soul Shriven who, despite having lost his or her soul, possessed some other intrinsic Anuic aspect. This shall-we-say "paragon" Soul Shriven would form an unflawed body in Coldharbour that was a perfect duplicate of the body worn in Mundus. In fact, if this paragon bore a sufficiently high Anuic valence, upon contact with Padomaic creatia its body would form almost instantaneously.

The Sojourner scoffed at my theory, but seemed taken with the idea nonetheless. He went on to speculate that if such a thing were possible, it would probably occur in a situation where the Mundus was in existential jeopardy. In that case the Heart of Nirn would spontaneously generate such "paragon" individuals as a way of defending itself from destruction, in a manner analogous to the way the mortal body fights off infection."

Thank you for posting this, I found this book a few days ago and it's really fascinating. So Nirn is basically sentient to some degree and can 'sense' that the planeneld is a threat to its very existence, so it allows vestiges to be made as a sort of defense mechanism. The question for me at least is what is the Heart of Nirn, and is it the same as the Heart of Lorkhan? In which case, does that mean Nirn lacks any defense mechanism as of the events of TES3?

VaranisArano

Kaktus wrote: »

adriant1978 wrote: »

You can read about the special nature of the Vestige compared to other Soul Shriven here.

"What follows is speculation, born of conversations with the Sojourner during his infrequent and unpredictable visits. His theory is that the Soul Shriven's bodies are flawed because they have lost the focusing principle of their Anuic souls, so their vestiges are imperfect patterns. I concurred that this was likely, and then proposed the theoretical possibility of a Soul Shriven who, despite having lost his or her soul, possessed some other intrinsic Anuic aspect. This shall-we-say "paragon" Soul Shriven would form an unflawed body in Coldharbour that was a perfect duplicate of the body worn in Mundus. In fact, if this paragon bore a sufficiently high Anuic valence, upon contact with Padomaic creatia its body would form almost instantaneously.

The Sojourner scoffed at my theory, but seemed taken with the idea nonetheless. He went on to speculate that if such a thing were possible, it would probably occur in a situation where the Mundus was in existential jeopardy. In that case the Heart of Nirn would spontaneously generate such "paragon" individuals as a way of defending itself from destruction, in a manner analogous to the way the mortal body fights off infection."

Thank you for posting this, I found this book a few days ago and it's really fascinating. So Nirn is basically sentient to some degree and can 'sense' that the planeneld is a threat to its very existence, so it allows vestiges to be made as a sort of defense mechanism. The question for me at least is what is the Heart of Nirn, and is it the same as the Heart of Lorkhan? In which case, does that mean Nirn lacks any defense mechanism as of the events of TES3?

Considering that we've seen the Champion of Cyrodiil and the Dragonborn emerge as "paragons", or at the very least champions, Im pretty sure that the narrative causality of "We have a crisis, a hero will arise to face it" still applies in the TES universe,

Eporem

Kaktus wrote: »

adriant1978 wrote: »

You can read about the special nature of the Vestige compared to other Soul Shriven here.

"What follows is speculation, born of conversations with the Sojourner during his infrequent and unpredictable visits. His theory is that the Soul Shriven's bodies are flawed because they have lost the focusing principle of their Anuic souls, so their vestiges are imperfect patterns. I concurred that this was likely, and then proposed the theoretical possibility of a Soul Shriven who, despite having lost his or her soul, possessed some other intrinsic Anuic aspect. This shall-we-say "paragon" Soul Shriven would form an unflawed body in Coldharbour that was a perfect duplicate of the body worn in Mundus. In fact, if this paragon bore a sufficiently high Anuic valence, upon contact with Padomaic creatia its body would form almost instantaneously.

The Sojourner scoffed at my theory, but seemed taken with the idea nonetheless. He went on to speculate that if such a thing were possible, it would probably occur in a situation where the Mundus was in existential jeopardy. In that case the Heart of Nirn would spontaneously generate such "paragon" individuals as a way of defending itself from destruction, in a manner analogous to the way the mortal body fights off infection."

Thank you for posting this, I found this book a few days ago and it's really fascinating. So Nirn is basically sentient to some degree and can 'sense' that the planeneld is a threat to its very existence, so it allows vestiges to be made as a sort of defense mechanism. The question for me at least is what is the Heart of Nirn, and is it the same as the Heart of Lorkhan? In which case, does that mean Nirn lacks any defense mechanism as of the events of TES3?

To me the Heart of Nirn and the Heart of Lorkhan seem the same. If by the events of TES3 you mean that this Heart was destroyed I have seen explanations that it cannot be. From this lorebook: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Monomyth

"But when Trinimac and Auriel tried to destroy the Heart of Lorkhan it laughed at them. It said, 'This Heart is the heart of the world, for one was made to satisfy the other.' So Auriel fastened the thing to an arrow and let it fly long into the sea, where no aspect of the new world may ever find it."

Kingdaboss123

Does anyone have a reason why the vestige is called a mortal, even though he/she cannot be killed permanently due to the chaotic creatia.

President_PUG

None of that explains the dude with a pot on his head.

KroRex

Why he created this body exactly as the old one? Was rly molag bal that created it? (the body that we play the game)

Daedra don't know how to create, only how to copy. Remember this. He just copied this body.

Why we are not mindless slaves as others we encounter in coldharbour?

Because our character is Chosen One, like Elder Scrolls predicted.

What are the cons of not having a soul and not just being a walking body? Because it's seen like you have a perfect mind (able to think) and do normal stuff with the protagonist.

My character is helping everyone and can't rob traders and banks, so I think that there is something wrong with him. Maybe it's because of not having soul.

LifenLemons

I think the Prophet, our character & Cadwell all smoked coco puffs, and all this is in their heads. Why?

Because once you're done with the maon quest, you have your soul back but you're exactly the same as before. Depending on your choices, the Prophet might not be there.
So to me, he just went home. Or worse, he got caught with the coco puffs and now he's in jail lol. Coldharbour is one big coco trip. I mean Cadwell has a pot on his head! Cmon. XD

Eporem

Kingdaboss123 wrote: »

Does anyone have a reason why the vestige is called a mortal, even though he/she cannot be killed permanently due to the chaotic creatia.

One reason might be appearance - how could one tell by appearance whether one was a vestige or mortal

VaranisArano

President_PUG wrote: »

None of that explains the dude with a pot on his head.

Cadwell

seems to practically wind up as a champion of meridia by the end of it, so I'd guess that has some thing to with it

either that or Molag Bal can take his soul, but not his sense of humor

Cardthief

As stated above, once the Vestige was sacrificed to Molag Bal their original body is no more, most likely a corpse being used as an undead minion, in-turn the Vestige's soul is given to Molag Bal, in which he creates an immortal body that is identical to your original one but made entirely out of Azure Plasm. Azure Plasm is the substance that the Daedra from Coldharbour are made from, whenever a Daedra is "killed" on Nirn they slowly reform their body in the waters of Coldharbour, sometimes when you kill a lesser Daedra within their original plane of oblivion they can be permanently destroyed (only lesser Daedra though, the Daedric Princes are almost 100% invincible.

Now, their are differences between Daedra and Vestiges, when Daedra are defeated they slowly reform over time, while Vestiges on the other hand have access to Soul Magic, which allows them to reform almost instantaneously, and on the spot rather than being sent back to Coldharbour. Another difference is that despite the fact that the Daedra of Coldharbour and the Vestige are both made out of Azure Plasm, the Vestige's body was designed to be completely immortal, so that you could be tortured for an eternity until you became nothing but a husk of your former self, that being said, even if you die in Coldharbour you cannot be permanently destroyed, the only known way from our knowledge would be if Molag himself decided to destroy you, though we don't even know if even Molag has that power.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Azure_Plasm

"When a Daedra native to Coldharbour is slain or banished, its morphotype, or vestige, is sent back there. Within Coldharbour are secret grottoes where the process of plasm-accretion can be witnessed. It is here the Azure Plasm drains from pools adjacent to the grottoes and slowly coalesces around a vestige to eventually reform the Daedra. It is usually a terrifying and lengthy process for the Daedra involved, although it can be prevented through resurrection with the use of Soul Magic. The process is identical for mortals whose soul is under the protection of a Daedric Prince, such as Soul Shriven and Umaril the Unfeathered. The Azure Plasm coalesces around a vestige and forms a corporeal body with the semblance of the shape it wore in life. Should this individual die, the nature of the vestige is such that their body simply reforms upon death and the cycle repeats itself."

Now, on to the last 2 topics, first, when the Vestige gains their soul back, why does nothing change? Simple, you may have your soul back, but your original mortal body is long gone, the body your soul currently inhabits is still made entirely out of Azure Plasm.

And finally, why did Molag make you immortal? While we may never truly know why entirely, we can guess 2 common reasons, first of all, granting you an immortal body means he can torture you for an eternity, which being Molag, is simply what he is. And second of all, as stated above, to be his unwitting champion, you may have foiled his plans for the Planemeld, but look at what you have also done, you have foiled the plans of the Triad, and preventing Nocturnal from gaining infinite power, power which is speculated to be able to permanently get rid of the other Daedric Princes, Molag included. You have slain countless foes, including those whom are against Molag. And finally even though the Planemeld is done we don't know what Molag has planned next, he could be plotting something again, and we are unknowingly aiding him with it, who can truly tell what schemes the God of Schemes is planning? Long story short he is playing us like a damn fiddle.

Kingdaboss123

From what i know of there are two ways of killing the vestige, the first is killing him/her in aetherius and the complete destruction of his/her soul.

Auldjohn

Skillasaurus88 wrote: »

Also other players are justified as it being a Dragon Break, so we all are unique but exist concurrently. Lazy or great writing? Bit of both :P

... being a Dragonborn... Dragon Break was a rupture in the time stream.

VaranisArano

Auldjohn wrote: »

Skillasaurus88 wrote: »

Also other players are justified as it being a Dragon Break, so we all are unique but exist concurrently. Lazy or great writing? Bit of both :P

... being a Dragonborn... Dragon Break was a rupture in the time stream.

The Vestige is pretty clearly not a Draginborn, or else the Main Quest and the Imperial City quest would have different endings.

Cardthief

Auldjohn wrote: »

Skillasaurus88 wrote: »

Also other players are justified as it being a Dragon Break, so we all are unique but exist concurrently. Lazy or great writing? Bit of both :P

... being a Dragonborn... Dragon Break was a rupture in the time stream.

What they are trying to say is during the events of ESO people think that the reason why we see other "Vestige" players is due to a Dragon Break, causing thousands of versions of the Vestige to exist within one universe.

Also a Dragon Break isn't a singular event, it has happened many times throughout Elder Scrolls history, even in the Craglorn Trial Sanctum Ophidia the Serpent causes a Dragon Break, where you can even see Cyrodiil covered in jungle during one of the fights. Dragon Breaks happen pretty much every time the Numidium is activated.

Davor

Cardthief wrote: »

As stated above, once the Vestige was sacrificed to Molag Bal their original body is no more, most likely a corpse being used as an undead minion, in-turn the Vestige's soul is given to Molag Bal, in which he creates an immortal body that is identical to your original one but made entirely out of Azure Plasm. Azure Plasm is the substance that the Daedra from Coldharbour are made from, whenever a Daedra is "killed" on Nirn they slowly reform their body in the waters of Coldharbour, sometimes when you kill a lesser Daedra within their original plane of oblivion they can be permanently destroyed (only lesser Daedra though, the Daedric Princes are almost 100% invincible.

Now, their are differences between Daedra and Vestiges, when Daedra are defeated they slowly reform over time, while Vestiges on the other hand have access to Soul Magic, which allows them to reform almost instantaneously, and on the spot rather than being sent back to Coldharbour. Another difference is that despite the fact that the Daedra of Coldharbour and the Vestige are both made out of Azure Plasm, the Vestige's body was designed to be completely immortal, so that you could be tortured for an eternity until you became nothing but a husk of your former self, that being said, even if you die in Coldharbour you cannot be permanently destroyed, the only known way from our knowledge would be if Molag himself decided to destroy you, though we don't even know if even Molag has that power.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Azure_Plasm

"When a Daedra native to Coldharbour is slain or banished, its morphotype, or vestige, is sent back there. Within Coldharbour are secret grottoes where the process of plasm-accretion can be witnessed. It is here the Azure Plasm drains from pools adjacent to the grottoes and slowly coalesces around a vestige to eventually reform the Daedra. It is usually a terrifying and lengthy process for the Daedra involved, although it can be prevented through resurrection with the use of Soul Magic. The process is identical for mortals whose soul is under the protection of a Daedric Prince, such as Soul Shriven and Umaril the Unfeathered. The Azure Plasm coalesces around a vestige and forms a corporeal body with the semblance of the shape it wore in life. Should this individual die, the nature of the vestige is such that their body simply reforms upon death and the cycle repeats itself."

Now, on to the last 2 topics, first, when the Vestige gains their soul back, why does nothing change? Simple, you may have your soul back, but your original mortal body is long gone, the body your soul currently inhabits is still made entirely out of Azure Plasm.

And finally, why did Molag make you immortal? While we may never truly know why entirely, we can guess 2 common reasons, first of all, granting you an immortal body means he can torture you for an eternity, which being Molag, is simply what he is. And second of all, as stated above, to be his unwitting champion, you may have foiled his plans for the Planemeld, but look at what you have also done, you have foiled the plans of the Triad, and preventing Nocturnal from gaining infinite power, power which is speculated to be able to permanently get rid of the other Daedric Princes, Molag included. You have slain countless foes, including those whom are against Molag. And finally even though the Planemeld is done we don't know what Molag has planned next, he could be plotting something again, and we are unknowingly aiding him with it, who can truly tell what schemes the God of Schemes is planning? Long story short he is playing us like a damn fiddle.

Reminds me the end of Diablo. While defeating Diablo in Diablo I, memory fuzzy here now, you basically become the evil person in Diablo II. So while Diablo has lost he still won. I have that naggering feeling same here. I have "won", but question is for how long? I didn't know the vestige was immortal. So we can always turn and do his bidding. Maybe that is the plan all along. We don't turn now, but sometime later.

MLGProPlayer

Kingdaboss123 wrote: »

Does anyone have a reason why the vestige is called a mortal, even though he/she cannot be killed permanently due to the chaotic creatia.

I always found the dialogue referring to the Vestige as mortal strange, especially when coming from divine beings who would be able to know that he/she is immortal (the Vestige is essentially a daedra).