Does Stam need better detect pots?

TheYKcid

As Wolfhunter draws near, the impending defeat of the Sload army is in sight. Nightblades will once again be able to cloak for the first time in months. And correspondingly, cases of cloak-induced rage are forecasted to hit new highs.

Which, in all seriousness, should warrant a review of the current state of cloak counterplay. Particularly the reliable, non class-based option that's accessible to both stam and mag—detect pots.

On a mag toon, I've never felt them to be lacking in any way. After all, the optimal mag detect pot grants access to:

• magicka restore + major intellect (meaning you have no reduction in primary resource sustain vs. your regular pot)
• immovable (allowing you to line-up that juicy combo on the unsuspecting NB, without being disrupted by fear/incap)
• & detection (of course)

Contrast this with some of the stam-oriented detect pots available:

• detect + weapon crit
• detect + vitality (arguably a stam thing, although mag builds can certainly use this too)

And... yeah. That's literally the extent of it. Nothing that even includes stam restore as part of the cocktail, meaning stam users put themselves at a crippling sustain disadvantage should they pop one of these.

I'd suggest the implementation of a detect pot recipe(s?) that includes stamina restore. Hell, I'd be happy with these two effects alone, but if immovable OR weapon crit could be thrown into the mix, that'd be great too, and very reasonable I'd argue. Seeing as no current reagent combination can produce these results, perhaps add a new reagent in the Wolfhunter update that can?

(but please make it more common than mother-of-pearl)

NBrookus

Magicka speed pots also need to be a thing.

Theignson

You're right-- IMO the only thing Sload's was useful for was revealing NB in combat. So, with that taken away, back to the usual "gank attempt--fight back--- cloak away-- repeat" scenario.
Against a good NB my stam warden and even stam DK don't do very well. A good NB can often take 50-70% of my health with their first gank attack. Then, I'm already trying to heal instead of attack and with their good dps that is a fail. Yes, l2p, and maybe I'll eventually do better, but some battles are just mismatches.
Mage light isnt good for stam IMO. Expert hunter is a joke (6m range!!). Detect pots aren't practical to keep up when riding between keeps and getting ganked (expensive and besides, with a range of 20m they will not prevent Snipe gank). If you use a detect pot in battle, you lose benefits of other pots. Running around blindly setting off AOEs or revealing flare is lame and I'll bet just makes the NBs laugh. Often I see 5-10 players running around trying to reveal a NB.

However, and I haven't seen this mentioned much in the cloak wars, Cyrodil is an alliance game. And everything those nasty enemy NB can do, the good NB on our side can also do, and they often save our fights. So, it is balanced on an alliance level. When some of those pro NB gankers take me out I try to remember this as a consolation

Priyasekarssk

TheYKcid wrote: »

As Wolfhunter draws near, the impending defeat of the Sload army is in sight. Nightblades will once again be able to cloak for the first time in months. And correspondingly, cases of cloak-induced rage are forecasted to hit new highs.

Which, in all seriousness, should warrant a review of the current state of cloak counterplay. Particularly the reliable, non class-based option that's accessible to both stam and mag—detect pots.

On a mag toon, I've never felt them to be lacking in any way. After all, the optimal mag detect pot grants access to:

• magicka restore + major intellect (meaning you have no reduction in primary resource sustain vs. your regular pot)
• immovable (allowing you to line-up that juicy combo on the unsuspecting NB, without being disrupted by fear/incap)
• & detection (of course)

Contrast this with some of the stam-oriented detect pots available:

• detect + weapon crit
• detect + vitality (arguably a stam thing, although mag builds can certainly use this too)

And... yeah. That's literally the extent of it. Nothing that even includes stam restore as part of the cocktail, meaning stam users put themselves at a crippling sustain disadvantage should they pop one of these.

I'd suggest the implementation of a detect pot recipe(s?) that includes stamina restore. Hell, I'd be happy with these two effects alone, but if immovable OR weapon crit could be thrown into the mix, that'd be great too, and very reasonable I'd argue. Seeing as no current reagent combination can produce these results, perhaps add a new reagent in the Wolfhunter update that can?

(but please make it more common than mother-of-pearl)

It will be never be implemented. Dont waste your time. Anything that challenge cloak will be removed from game. There will be always shield breaker and oblivion. There will be never a cloak breaker. Please dont waste time and switch to alpha class. Now they can detect who is using pods. Using pods LOL. You cannot and never detect NB. NB is the pet class of ESO. NB is completely biased class . NB produces 30 percent more damage compared to other classes including magic sorc. Magic sorc is a dps class trust me. ESO intentionally left sorc without any debuff. Runcage is counting its days and NB are crying for nerfing its range. Obviously it will be done , so that NBS can continue on killing spree with no skill. Who cares ? NB the alpha class of ESO and nothing will be there to counter it.

Switch to NB is my advice. Do you know magic sorc is downright garbage because of NB. Because, sorc has range dps, it counters NBs long range debufs and snipes. They want magic sorc to be always garbage , most of other classes are melee dps atleast to some extent. So NBs dont care , since NB can outburst any class on 1v1 . End result magic Sorc is garbage.

How self proclaimed pros can live without that OP class twitch streaming lol ? Learn to beat them in their own game. Never ever play any other class in ESO in PVP. You will regret for it one day.

Thogard

There needs to be a speed + detect pot, right now the problem is that as soon as a Stam player pops detect, they lose major expedition, which makes it extremely easy for the stamblade to just kite their opponent.

The counterplay to cloak needs to not be so easy to get countered lol.

Priyasekarssk

Thogard wrote: »

There needs to be a speed + detect pot, right now the problem is that as soon as a Stam player pops detect, they lose major expedition, which makes it extremely easy for the stamblade to just kite their opponent.

The counterplay to cloak needs to not be so easy to get countered lol.

Switch to NB problem solved. Do you expect there will be reliable counter to cloak either now or in future ?
Please dont waste time.

Priyasekarssk

Theignson wrote: »

You're right-- IMO the only thing Sload's was useful for was revealing NB in combat. So, with that taken away, back to the usual "gank attempt--fight back--- cloak away-- repeat" scenario.
Against a good NB my stam warden and even stam DK don't do very well. A good NB can often take 50-70% of my health with their first gank attack. Then, I'm already trying to heal instead of attack and with their good dps that is a fail. Yes, l2p, and maybe I'll eventually do better, but some battles are just mismatches.
Mage light isnt good for stam IMO. Expert hunter is a joke (6m range!!). Detect pots aren't practical to keep up when riding between keeps and getting ganked (expensive and besides, with a range of 20m they will not prevent Snipe gank). If you use a detect pot in battle, you lose benefits of other pots. Running around blindly setting off AOEs or revealing flare is lame and I'll bet just makes the NBs laugh. Often I see 5-10 players running around trying to reveal a NB.

However, and I haven't seen this mentioned much in the cloak wars, Cyrodil is an alliance game. And everything those nasty enemy NB can do, the good NB on our side can also do, and they often save our fights. So, it is balanced on an alliance level. When some of those pro NB gankers take me out I try to remember this as a consolation

Read my posts above. NB will be never nerfed. In future NB can detect who are all using detect pods. But, you cannot detect them. Use NB for PVP , otherwise you will regret it one day.

TheYKcid

Ah yes I forgot about expedition. It's another of those core potion buffs that stam has to sacrifice just to run detect pots, which should be a staple.

@Priyasekarssk I'm a Stamblade main myself lol. Even then the constant cloak>roll>cloak>roll of other Stamblades gets on my nerves, since every damage source in my toolkit can be dodged or cloak-cancelled. I'd happily sacrifice a bit of my own defence if it meant cloak had more counterplay in general.

DeadlyRecluse

While we are making up potions we want, please give me a +magicka, +stamina, immovable pot.

...a detect+speed pot does sound good as a dedicated anti-stealth potion, though.

Priyasekarssk

TheYKcid wrote: »

Ah yes I forgot about expedition. It's another of those core potion buffs that stam has to sacrifice just to run detect pots, which should be a staple.

@Priyasekarssk I'm a Stamblade main myself lol. Even then the constant cloak>roll>cloak>roll of other Stamblades gets on my nerves, since every damage source in my toolkit can be dodged or cloak-cancelled. I'd happily sacrifice a bit of my own defence if it meant cloak had more counterplay in general.

After levelling up NB is a blast. Mark target ( Major fracture from 35 M range) + 2 Lether arrow ( Major defile 35m) + cloak ( atleast one of the lethat arrow will crit . Poison injection + light attack spam with sheet venom set/sheield breaker Noobs can neither heal nor put shields , trust me its not overpowered. Trust me its hardly 2-3 seconds to execute this combo, target dead in 3 seconds unless someone purge/heal him. Lol enemies spotted . Use shadow image and cload away.
Funny noobs will running around the rocks and trees , while I was laughing on the other side.

rfennell_ESO

Thogard wrote: »

There needs to be a speed + detect pot, right now the problem is that as soon as a Stam player pops detect, they lose major expedition, which makes it extremely easy for the stamblade to just kite their opponent.

The counterplay to cloak needs to not be so easy to get countered lol.

The in general problem is that detect pots versus medium armor wearers (which affects cloak) is far too small. It's 10m for all medium with detection range reduction (bosmer etc) or sets that's reduce.

The addition of additional effects to bolster the detect pot arsenal is still going to hampered by short range of it versus medium armor users.

They ought either increase range on detect pots or make it so armor bonuses do not affect cloak detection range.

Versus straight up stealth they work fine. It's versus cloak they fail so miserably, due to the reductions armor and race make to detection range.

brandonv516

No. StamSorc don't need anything else for NB when they have the ridiculous range of hurricane.

ezeepeezee

TheYKcid wrote: »

As Wolfhunter draws near, the impending defeat of the Sload army is in sight. Nightblades will once again be able to cloak for the first time in months. And correspondingly, cases of cloak-induced rage are forecasted to hit new highs.

Which, in all seriousness, should warrant a review of the current state of cloak counterplay. Particularly the reliable, non class-based option that's accessible to both stam and mag—detect pots.

On a mag toon, I've never felt them to be lacking in any way. After all, the optimal mag detect pot grants access to:

• magicka restore + major intellect (meaning you have no reduction in primary resource sustain vs. your regular pot)
• immovable (allowing you to line-up that juicy combo on the unsuspecting NB, without being disrupted by fear/incap)
• & detection (of course)

Contrast this with some of the stam-oriented detect pots available:

• detect + weapon crit
• detect + vitality (arguably a stam thing, although mag builds can certainly use this too)

And... yeah. That's literally the extent of it. Nothing that even includes stam restore as part of the cocktail, meaning stam users put themselves at a crippling sustain disadvantage should they pop one of these.

I'd suggest the implementation of a detect pot recipe(s?) that includes stamina restore. Hell, I'd be happy with these two effects alone, but if immovable OR weapon crit could be thrown into the mix, that'd be great too, and very reasonable I'd argue. Seeing as no current reagent combination can produce these results, perhaps add a new reagent in the Wolfhunter update that can?

(but please make it more common than mother-of-pearl)

I just want to point out that three classes have an in-class source of Major Endurance:

DK - GDB
NB - Relentless
WA - Bird of Prey

Templar also has Minor Endurance with Repentance slotted, but we all know stamplar sustain is bad. Sorc has Bound Armor and Dark Deal, which more or less make up for not having ME.

I'm not sure I'd actually want anything besides vitality, personally. I get the rest of my essential buffs elsewhere. Arguably on stamDK it's a detriment to run GDB, but that all depends on build.

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think Major Intellect is accessible through any class skills.

To be clear, I'm not making any argument here, I just want to point this out.

TheYKcid

In response to the above:

• A DK using GDB in PvP is a dedicated [read: troll] tank, and being able to kill an NB is the last thing on their agenda
• Relentless gives minor endurance
• You'll be hard pressed to find a Stamden with barspace for wings

Major endurance is a pretty damn rare buff to find outside pots, and all of the above would benefit from having it bundled with detect. Besides, it not just the endurance, but also the big burst restore of stam upon consuming the pot.

usmguy1234

TheYKcid wrote: »

As Wolfhunter draws near, the impending defeat of the Sload army is in sight. Nightblades will once again be able to cloak for the first time in months. And correspondingly, cases of cloak-induced rage are forecasted to hit new highs.

Which, in all seriousness, should warrant a review of the current state of cloak counterplay. Particularly the reliable, non class-based option that's accessible to both stam and mag—detect pots.

On a mag toon, I've never felt them to be lacking in any way. After all, the optimal mag detect pot grants access to:

• magicka restore + major intellect (meaning you have no reduction in primary resource sustain vs. your regular pot)
• immovable (allowing you to line-up that juicy combo on the unsuspecting NB, without being disrupted by fear/incap)
• & detection (of course)

Contrast this with some of the stam-oriented detect pots available:

• detect + weapon crit
• detect + vitality (arguably a stam thing, although mag builds can certainly use this too)

And... yeah. That's literally the extent of it. Nothing that even includes stam restore as part of the cocktail, meaning stam users put themselves at a crippling sustain disadvantage should they pop one of these.

I'd suggest the implementation of a detect pot recipe(s?) that includes stamina restore. Hell, I'd be happy with these two effects alone, but if immovable OR weapon crit could be thrown into the mix, that'd be great too, and very reasonable I'd argue. Seeing as no current reagent combination can produce these results, perhaps add a new reagent in the Wolfhunter update that can?

(but please make it more common than mother-of-pearl)

How about getting rid of cloak all together?

Brrrofski

Honestly, detect and Stam/major endurance would be fine.

Kartalin

Since we’re making potion wishes I would love a magicka + immovable + major sorcery pot.

Definitely agree that stam detect pots are extremely limited regardless.