Cyrodil needs a true newbie campaign

Alagras

Honestly I didn t play in a while but I ll be back and I have an idea to submit you folks about campaigns.

-First make alliance ranks account-wide. At least chars we got in a single alliance would share the same rank.

-Then make a campaign reserved to players who are below, say, lieutenant.

And voilà, you got a TRUE beginners campaign, where noobs (like me ) can have fun and progress without getting farmed by pros hanging around since beta. Or without hiding in lagg-trains.

I think Blackwater Blade never filled this role well as all can enter it. Of course no-CPs camps certainly help, but I still believe the other way would be better.

Of course it means that once you reached the limit rank you can never enter the campaign again. But once you re a grown up arse you can t wear the pants you had at 12 yo either, it s life.



Whaddyathink?

Edit: I should have posted this in Alliance War sub-forum...well.

Lloydmp

Sounds interesting but it’s basically a beginners campaign that would be almost dead.
Wouldn’t take long for you to level your pvp level and then you will still feel like a noob but now be forced into the higher tier campaign.

If there was a rebuff for zergs. (Less % dmg for groups 12+).

Solo gankers could get a similar debuff for kills without dying, which would reset on death?

TheMystid

Capitains farm citizens.
Veterans farm capitains.
Liutenants farm veterans.
Tribunes farm liutenants.
Legates farm tribunes.
Grand overlord farm them all.

IT s life

VaranisArano

Honestly, I suspect this newbie campaign wouldn't actually prepare you well for PVP in the actual campaigns. Even in Kyne you've got experienced players who will train or lead groups.

But I know when I joined CP Haderus at 600 or so CP, I didn't have a clue how to PVP. The only way I learned was by running with and learning from more experienced players.

Alagras

Lloydmp wrote: »

Wouldn’t take long for you to level your pvp level and then you will still feel like a noob but now be forced into the higher tier campaign.

Sure, but still less noob than you were at first. The point would only be to let newcomers spend their first 20-30 hours or so having fun so they get hooked. Horse simulator drives away many players methinks. The ratio time spent fighting/time spent on horse is bad at first. Edit: this ratio, for beginners, isn t bad, it s awful, miserable. It s poor design.

TheMystid wrote: »

Capitains farm citizens.
Veterans farm capitains.
Liutenants farm veterans.
Tribunes farm liutenants.
Legates farm tribunes.
Grand overlord farm them all.

IT s life

Not perfectly true imo.

Captains farm citizens.

Veterans farm captains and citizens.

Lieutenants farm cits and caps and vets, and so on.

What I mean is "grand overlord farm them all" is normal, but "citizens get farmed by them all" is a problem, as it drives a bunch of players away.
In a game where it takes time to die it s ok, but if you get sent back to loading screen before you know how, over and over, it sucks.

That s why Blackwater Blade exists, but I think the criteria to enter should be our xp, not our toon's xp.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Honestly, I suspect this newbie campaign wouldn't actually prepare you well for PVP in the actual campaigns.

Maybe you re right but the point would be to let newbs discover how much fun it can be. Then at some point one has to hang on and l2p, but without fun most will rather get back to PvE.

VaranisArano wrote: »

I know when I joined CP Haderus at 600 or so CP, I didn't have a clue how to PVP. The only way I learned was by running with and learning from more experienced players.

So did I, it s the way. I didn t become very good, but enough to enjoy as f.

But my first 30ish hours I was trying solo and it s wonder I didn t give up, given how little time I actually spend fighting. And I m sure maaany began like me, solo, and just gave up out of boredom.

Overall it s only a minor thing, but one that could increase PvP numbers.
Basically as said above BlackBlade is missing its target, criteria to enter should be the player s PvP experience, not the toon's level.

Thogard

Many warlords are terrible players, especially on PC NA which has been around for a while now.

If you want to get an idea of how good someone is, look at the tabbard they wear, not the alliance rank.

Biro123

I agree.

I think it's disgusting that groups of experienced PvPer s with twinked out builds play on kyne.
The only possible result is that new players who are initially interested in PvP are driven away from it.

And I get the population thing, so how about a smaller map? Perhaps maybe just one 'home keep' for each faction and an outpost or three in the middle to fight over?

Alagras

Thogard wrote: »

Many warlords are terrible players, especially on PC NA which has been around for a while now.

If you want to get an idea of how good someone is, look at the tabbard they wear, not the alliance rank.

Not false. Maybe a dynamic ranking system would be better. If BGs had one it could help. I read there aren t enough people queuing for that (haven t played lately as I said). But most major PvP games have such a system. I m also told that as a result, a beginner queuin for BGs will get wrecked by experienced premade groups.... no horse sim at least but poor way to hook up a new player.

Biro123 wrote: »

I get the population thing, so how about a smaller map? Perhaps maybe just one 'home keep' for each faction and an outpost or three in the middle to fight over?

Agree ESO PvP could use new maps, new gameplays... BGs could fit this role but as said above there is a "numbers problem" there too. ( not enough ppl queuing for a proper dynamic matchmaking system)

So maybe as you say a smaller campaign could help. Like a permanent big BG. It could have a beginners version of some sort, and also provide a new gameplay for everyone.



To those who may think "one must learn the hard way just like I did" I say: if you want ZoS to care about PvP, you need more PvPers. Why are they so few in ESO when it can be so fun?
Look at major PvP games like LoL or CSGO... would they have become such hits if matchmaking was randomized?
Not 100% comparable, but still a big ESO problem I think.

Thogard

I agree

NBrookus

It would be more welcoming if there was a path of progression, like there is with normal dungeon -> vet dungeon -> vet HM. But a "noob" campaign I think it would end up being a PVE campaign with a few noob PVP'ers practicing ganking and some people learning to PVDoor. It's not likely to help them learn at all, so there's no bridge to the "vet" campaigns and they'd go there and still be out of water.

Aedaryl

This is extremely dumb.

A pro player can create an new account reroll and start to PvP rank 1 on his character.

Also, rank in PvP doesn't been someone is good. It just mean the guy farmed AP, and for AP, you don't need to kill people, but you need to break walls.

The number of huge bad player that are grant overload is hilarious.

Alagras

Aedaryl wrote: »

This is extremely dumb.

A pro player can create an new account reroll and start to PvP rank 1 on his character.

And how long before he reaches Lieutenant and can never enter any more? Then what, he creates a new account everyday for this purpose?

Aedaryl wrote: »

Also, rank in PvP doesn't been someone is good. It just mean the guy farmed AP, and for AP, you don't need to kill people, but you need to break walls.

The number of huge bad player that are grant overload is hilarious.

This on the other hand makes sense. It s been discussed above if you read the thread.


Again, my point is that ESO lacks a place where noobs can fight noobs. Discussing the best ways to do that is what I care about.

Alagras

NBrookus wrote: »

It would be more welcoming if there was a path of progression, like there is with normal dungeon -> vet dungeon -> vet HM.

Regarding BGs dynamic ranks would do the trick. I m told it wouldn t work because queuers are too few so idk.... would be the way though.

VaranisArano

Alagras wrote: »

Again, my point is that ESO lacks a place where noobs can fight noobs. Discussing the best ways to do that is what I care about.

ESO does lack a place for noobs to fight noobs, outside of self-organized duels.

My question is more "What are noobs going to learn if they only fight noobs? How is only fighting noobs going to prepare anyone for actual PVP against people who aren't noobs? Will letting them only fight other noobs work better or worse than letting them fight a mix of noobs and more experienced players while fighting alongside a mix of noobs and more experienced players?"

Look, I know the learning curve for PVP is steep. The Below 50 BGs and Kyne campaign helps somewhat, but there's still experienced players fighting there and there's still a steep learning curve when people graduate to the max level CP and No CP campaigns and battlegrounds.

But I don't think that throwing a bunch of pure noobs together is actually going to help that learning curve at all. I'm not even sure that throwing a bunch of noobs together is going to be fun - and its certainly going to make the process of leaving the kiddie pool and graduating to actual PVP against more experienced players even worse. Its basically putting a bunch of people who are just figuring things out and expecting them to figure things out together just in time to graduate to the other campaigns. Frankly, that's not how learning to PVP works. There's a lot of things that take getting a lot of experience, practice, or help from more experienced players to figure out how to do well. I think you are underestimating the benefits of fighting alongside more experienced players who can show new players the ropes, along with the benefits of fighting against more experienced players. As a PVPer, sometimes the best way to learn to do better is to fight better enemies and pay attention to what they are doing.


I'm all for suggestions that can make that steep learning curve better for new players. However, I don't think that putting brand new PVPers together against each other is going to help them gain the battlefield awareness, fighting ability, reading the map, or defensive techniques that will actually help them survive, be effective, and and have in the "real" PVP campaigns. Instead, I think they will struggle to figure out what works against other noobs, and then if they do figure it out, they'll be completely unprepared for more experienced players in the other PVP campaigns.

TLDR: If someone is a noob who only ever fights other noobs, that may be fun for the noob, but its setting them up for failure the moment they graduate from the noob campaign and start fighting players who aren't noobs.

notnull

I agree that under-50 PvP should be a learning environment, maybe similar to launch-era Cyrodiil. While you can't remove years of experience (ranks aren't a good measure), you can remove the twinking that makes it difficult for new people to learn / die before learning anything.

For learning (and fun) purposes, under-50 PvP might have:
- No bonuses from gear quality, level, or item sets (no twinking).
- (No CP, as it is).
- Max mount speed (get to the actual PvP).

This encourages a focus on the basics (skills, combos, dodging, blocking, kiting, siege, etc.). If a player has trouble in under-50 PvP, they'll know that the fix is something that they can improve (skills/reactions). Experienced players can join but won't be able to overwhelm inexperienced players with gold gear sets, etc.

Once the new person hits 50, they get a warning that says that they should invest in gear sets, etc.

I disagree that "noobs fighting noobs" won't be helpful. People have to start somewhere, and they're more likely to keep trying if they can learn a few steps at a time.

As an anecdote, I was watching some new players in Cyrodiil (Kyne) recently. It went something like:
- Group is having some fun. DK charges into fights. I want to kill, etc.
- Group starts sieging a keep.
- This is so cool, ESO is so cool, etc.
- Small group attacks. New players fight back, but their attacks don't do any damage and they die very quickly.
- What was i supposed to do about that? I couldn't do any damage to him? I died so quickly?
- Similar situation occurs. DK no longer charges into fight. Sits back desperately holding block and trying to figure out what's happening, where all the damage is coming from. Dies quickly again.
- New players leave.

The attacking group was obviously more experienced, but they also had the benefit of twink gear. The new players didn't have a chance. When someone in their chat mentioned the gear difference, they got discouraged and left (because gear difference is not something that they have the resources to fix).

Beardimus

The dudes that re-roll toons to stay in Kyne with their L10 Gold Weapons are just pathetic if I'm honnest.

You should get one tour, then into Sotha.

Unsure if this is the fix but it needs a fix

_Salty_

Kyne on PS4 is full blue players who never leave kyne. They just rinse and repeat. Too scared to try real pvp so they zerg down new players.

Alagras

@VaranisArano Thank you for your reply and your constructive disagreement. Def not too long to read.

VaranisArano wrote: »

My question is more "What are noobs going to learn if they only fight noobs? How is only fighting noobs going to prepare anyone for actual PVP against people who aren't noobs?

(...)

TLDR: If someone is a noob who only ever fights other noobs, that may be fun for the noob, but its setting them up for failure the moment they graduate from the noob campaign and start fighting players who aren't noobs.

I bolded those "only" because they make me feel misunderstood for two reasons:

-New players wouldn t be forced into these campaigns more than they are in under 50 ones now.

-They would be "kicked" out of it quite fast, I said around Lieutenant but it could be before, it would aim at the first 15-30 hours or so.

Now for the moment they gotta jump in the adult pool, I disagree that it could make things worse.
In fact, one would have to try super hard to make it worse. I remember my first days, trying solo and.... thanks God I'm stubborn.

Agree though that it wouldn't prepare them much performance-wise. Nothing really could, but if they see how much fun there can be in it they ll be more likely to hang on.

And I don't even find the learning curve that steep. It s just that the very beginning of the process is unfun and a massive turn-off. The time-spent-fighting/time-spent-on-horse ratio being the big issue. Throw loading screen in the mix and most ppl get back to PvE forever.

Now granted BGs with dynamic match-making would do the job better. Folks, is there really no hope at all on this side by lack of queuers? If LoL didn t have one none would even know what this acronym stands for.

Alagras

notnull wrote: »

For learning (and fun) purposes, under-50 PvP might have:
- No bonuses from gear quality, level, or item sets (no twinking).
- (No CP, as it is).
- Max mount speed (get to the actual PvP)

No gear bonus at all sounds questionable... and in the same time very powerful to achieve the goals. Can t make my mind about it.

Max mount speed is interesting, makes me think of Biro123's idea of a smaller map.

notnull wrote: »

I was watching some new players in Cyrodiil (Kyne) recently. It went something like:
- Group is having some fun. DK charges into fights. I want to kill, etc.
- Group starts sieging a keep.
- This is so cool, ESO is so cool, etc.
- Small group attacks. New players fight back, but their attacks don't do any damage and they die very quickly.
- What was i supposed to do about that? I couldn't do any damage to him? I died so quickly?
- Similar situation occurs. DK no longer charges into fight. Sits back desperately holding block and trying to figure out what's happening, where all the damage is coming from. Dies quickly again.
- New players leave.

Beardimus wrote: »

The dudes that re-roll toons to stay in Kyne with their L10 Gold Weapons are just pathetic if I'm honnest.

You should get one tour, then into Sotha.

Unsure if this is the fix but it needs a fix

_Salty_ wrote: »

Kyne on PS4 is full blue players who never leave kyne. They just rinse and repeat. Too scared to try real pvp so they zerg down new players.

Best part was back in time when CPs mattered in Blackwater Blade (below lvl 50). If you weren t there, just imagine the result when newbs in random blue gear faced 500 CPs veterans.... it took ZoS maybe one year to acknowledge there was a problem.

I m no ZoS basher but I give them zero trust when it comes to putting themselves in beginner s stead.