Alkosh vs Other Tank Sets

webrgesner

Is Alkosh really nessesarry for tanks? I seen tanks that dies or doesnt have enough stam. Wouldnt it be better if a stam dps wears alkosh and tank wears an ulti regen set ot a stam and health set

ZarkingFrued

Didnt you know that once a notable streamer says that a set is the best set for a particular class then everyone decides nothing else is even viable, let alone possibly better? Jeeze.

Of course there are plenty of sets that work great on a tank, torugs for instance, but it does make the most sense for the tank to use alkosh since having a stam dps do it means they cant wear their meta set and reduces their dps. With all the other options for a tank to mitigate damage really their best set options are buff and debuff setups like the same old boring ebon and alkosh setup that every tank allowed in trial groups is wearing.

SilverWF

webrgesner wrote: »

Is Alkosh really nessesarry for tanks?

Not at all. But "elitists" would argue with that, no doubt.

Also, FYI, this set is "mandatory" for tanks not because of Stamina pool (Alkosh has zero of it and regen either)
But because it provides additional armor/resists debuff on monsters. And this debuff is special, so it stacks with usual debuffs from skills or enchants.

For an obvious question "why melee DD can't wear it and do the same job?" I'll answer: melee phys DDs are not, let's say, most welcome specs in the dungeons trials. Sure I meant trials

But I'll repeat, this set is NOT mandatory for tanks.

starkerealm

SilverWF wrote: »

webrgesner wrote: »

Is Alkosh really nessesarry for tanks?

Not at all. But "elitists" would argue with that, no doubt.

Also, FYI, this set is "mandatory" for tanks not because of Stamina pool (Alkosh has zero of it and regen either)
But because it provides additional armor/resists debuff on monsters. And this debuff is special, so it stacks with usual debuffs from skills or enchants.

For an obvious question "why melee DD can't wear it and do the same job?" I'll answer: melee phys DDs are not, let's say, most welcome specs in the dungeons trials.

But I'll repeat, this set is NOT mandatory for tanks.

Fixed that for you.

Though, yeah, this is actually an issue. The entire, "stick Alkosh" on the tank thing is, strictly about trials. In 4 man content, it does not matter. But, because someone re-purposed the set once, everyone thinks, "oh, it must be a tank set!"

Ihatenightblades

webrgesner wrote: »

Is Alkosh really nessesarry for tanks? I seen tanks that dies or doesnt have enough stam. Wouldnt it be better if a stam dps wears alkosh and tank wears an ulti regen set ot a stam and health set

There are so many good tank sets. It just all depends on content and group format.

For example if you are doing a 4 man dungeon with 3 magblade dps and 1 tank. Chances are yur alkosh will have 0 uptime. So that set would be completely useless.

A good alternative to alkosh is torugs pact. U can have a 100% uptime on it with 0 synergies.

Or if you feel and if your group feels they dont need buff sets and would rather have you go extra selfish to make sure you dont die im tough fights ( since most groups dont use a healer in dungeons thats when it usually ideal to go selfish, especially since your tanking without ahealer which is allowing another 35-40k dps to the group.

If you have a great healer and a good group i would always say run support and buff sets like alkosh torugs ebon etc. since you shouldnt have a problem surviving as a tank especially with a decent healer.

But lets say u doing fang lair hard mode with 3 dps. Then i would go as selfish ass possible since you will need extra resources to Immobilize beatles and sprint awwy from them before they get to you. That can be a lil more difficult if you dont have the sustain. So running dragon/leeching with bloodspawn would be ideal in that fight IMO.

If i was a tank i would collect all the good support sets and selfish sets just so i can run whats needed when needed. I think thats the best way to approach tanking

Royaji

If you are running out of stam and dying as a tank get your Alkosh off. Put it in the bank for now and get some Hist's, Alessia's Bulwark, Resilient Yokeda or whatever tanky set you prefer. You will notice the difference. This setup will get you through your first clear. And then you will run again. And again. And again. And then you'll start noticing...

huh, those adds actually don't hit that hard...
...a half decent healer can easily outheal that.
the boss actually has a specific patter to his attacks...
...if I heavy attack here I will always have enough stam to block his heavy.
I need to stand on this corner during that fight so I'm not surprised by any spawning adds.
if I position myself here I will collect all the adds in a nice little group...
...and my DDs can actually burn them so fast that way.
damn, I've already done this dungeon so many times... can we do it quick?

This is when you are ready. Pick up your Alkosh from the bank. You've just learned to play. You don't need tanky sets anymore. Welcome to meta tanking where it's not about "oh god, how can I survive that?!" but "hm, what is the absolute minimum I can surivive this with?".

Tyrobag

If your in a trial (assuming its not a pug of all noobs), at least one tank is wearing Alkosh, period.

The set is an absolutely essential debuff that is best applied by the tank.

If you're in a dungeon Alkosh is still the best, but you can make do without it.

WrathOfInnos

The reason Alkosh is used on a tank is that the tank is the one using most synergies. Most tanks would be unhappy if a stamina DPS ran in and grabbed their shards to proc Alkosh. Synergies like liquid lightning are typically placed right in the boss and within reach of the tank, while DPS are often having to deal with mechanics that put them out of range to use these. Alkosh on a DPS also means giving up Relequen, which is a massive DPS loss (about 10%).

However, the Alkosh tank meta is primarily for trials. In most dungeon groups you will not have enough synergies to make it worthwhile.

I’m also not impressed with Torugs for a dungeon debuff. It only adds about 1% DPS over typical infused Crusher enchants. That hardly seems worth a 5 piece set.

If you don’t have a healer in group (3 DPS), Ebon+Olorime is my personal favorite dungeon tank setup. The 2,3,4 set bonuses on Olorime are great for tanking, and the 5 piece bonus will add about as much group DPS as Alkosh without requiring synergies. You just have to use an AoE ability every 30s and the DPS should be able to pick up the Major Courage buff.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

It is necessary if your goal is to push score in trials. If you arent doing that, then of course not.

The thing about tanks is that the first rule is that you cant die. Until that is sorted out, going for group DPS sets doesnt make a whole lot of sense. That said, PVE content in this game does not require a tank to stack mitigation, so practically speaking, this is what good tanks do.

It works better on the tank for a few reasons. First, good tanks are constantly smashing synergies and they are right on top of the boss. They dont have to make much if any rotation adjustment to have very high effective uptime. The same cannot be said about a stam DPS. Second, people have crunched the numbers. It is more DPS if the tank can do it than if one of your melee DPS tries to do it. Its the same with a set like ebon. You can have one player (the tank) wear it, or you can have 8 DPS slide points into health in one way or another. The former is more group DPS.

Edziu

if I good remember on start it was dps set ut when ZOS "nerfed" every proc set as making them noncrittable then dps immetendially dropped this set because without crits this wasnt worth and "elitists" switched this set to tanks as they are less lossy with additional "buff" for group dps than if dps will wear it losing his own more dps than getting for wearing this

pod88kk

webrgesner wrote: »

Is Alkosh really nessesarry for tanks? I seen tanks that dies or doesnt have enough stam. Wouldnt it be better if a stam dps wears alkosh and tank wears an ulti regen set ot a stam and health set

No... Quit the game!!! Just kidding, yeah it's totally possible. There's plenty of combinations to run as a tank. Wear what you feel comfortable in.

Mojmir

I'll take baharas/plague over the meta any day.

webrgesner

SilverWF wrote: »

webrgesner wrote: »

Is Alkosh really nessesarry for tanks?

Not at all. But "elitists" would argue with that, no doubt.

Also, FYI, this set is "mandatory" for tanks not because of Stamina pool (Alkosh has zero of it and regen either)
But because it provides additional armor/resists debuff on monsters. And this debuff is special, so it stacks with usual debuffs from skills or enchants.

For an obvious question "why melee DD can't wear it and do the same job?" I'll answer: melee phys DDs are not, let's say, most welcome specs in the dungeons trials. Sure I meant trials

But I'll repeat, this set is NOT mandatory for tanks.

Sometimes its tanks fault why trial groups wipe because they die. Wouldnt it be better if you get 1 of the stam dps wear alcosh for the debuff? I use to run plague doctor, blood spawn, and hulking dreugr with witchmothers brew and all reduce block traits and had a massive survivability and still put out debuffs and warhorn while spamming igneous shield. But one of the try hard healers calls me an "off tank" when i ran mazzatun because i wasnt wearing meta like ebon or alkosh which irritated me because im a good tank and always pulls adds and spam igneous shield and i can survive without a healer

Destruent

Edziu wrote: »

if I good remember on start it was dps set ut when ZOS "nerfed" every proc set as making them noncrittable then dps immetendially dropped this set because without crits this wasnt worth and "elitists" switched this set to tanks as they are less lossy with additional "buff" for group dps than if dps will wear it losing his own more dps than getting for wearing this

This set was best on tanks since they introduced it. It was just not as bad as it is now on stam-dds back then...

Shezzarrine

webrgesner wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

webrgesner wrote: »

Is Alkosh really nessesarry for tanks?

Not at all. But "elitists" would argue with that, no doubt.

Also, FYI, this set is "mandatory" for tanks not because of Stamina pool (Alkosh has zero of it and regen either)
But because it provides additional armor/resists debuff on monsters. And this debuff is special, so it stacks with usual debuffs from skills or enchants.

For an obvious question "why melee DD can't wear it and do the same job?" I'll answer: melee phys DDs are not, let's say, most welcome specs in the dungeons trials. Sure I meant trials

But I'll repeat, this set is NOT mandatory for tanks.

Sometimes its tanks fault why trial groups wipe because they die. Wouldnt it be better if you get 1 of the stam dps wear alcosh for the debuff? I use to run plague doctor, blood spawn, and hulking dreugr with witchmothers brew and all reduce block traits and had a massive survivability and still put out debuffs and warhorn while spamming igneous shield. But one of the try hard healers calls me an "off tank" when i ran mazzatun because i wasnt wearing meta like ebon or alkosh which irritated me because im a good tank and always pulls adds and spam igneous shield and i can survive without a healer

If you're new to trials sure, use a selfish set or two until you and your group learn it well enough for you to not need a selfish set. Meta for tanks is what helps the group the most because you can tank almost anything with no selfish sets. Surviving without a healer in a vet DLC means basically nothing, especially if you are wearing selfish sets.

FrostFallFox

If you can survive and sustain without “selfish” tanky sets, why not wear something to support the group?

Royaji

webrgesner wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

webrgesner wrote: »

Is Alkosh really nessesarry for tanks?

Not at all. But "elitists" would argue with that, no doubt.

Also, FYI, this set is "mandatory" for tanks not because of Stamina pool (Alkosh has zero of it and regen either)
But because it provides additional armor/resists debuff on monsters. And this debuff is special, so it stacks with usual debuffs from skills or enchants.

For an obvious question "why melee DD can't wear it and do the same job?" I'll answer: melee phys DDs are not, let's say, most welcome specs in the dungeons trials. Sure I meant trials

But I'll repeat, this set is NOT mandatory for tanks.

Sometimes its tanks fault why trial groups wipe because they die. Wouldnt it be better if you get 1 of the stam dps wear alcosh for the debuff? I use to run plague doctor, blood spawn, and hulking dreugr with witchmothers brew and all reduce block traits and had a massive survivability and still put out debuffs and warhorn while spamming igneous shield. But one of the try hard healers calls me an "off tank" when i ran mazzatun because i wasnt wearing meta like ebon or alkosh which irritated me because im a good tank and always pulls adds and spam igneous shield and i can survive without a healer

You don't have to run it. If you do not feel comfortable running alkosh, don't run alkosh. Simple as that.

No. It can't be put on a stam DD. It's a massive DPS loss. You might consider it in a trial (it's still bad) it is even worse when a DD is running it in a dungeon. You only have two of them in there. In a group with no Alkosh it's better to respec CPs with heavy focus on spell erosion and piercing strikes.

The question a good tank will be asking is "what is the absolute minimum survivability I need?" and not "how do I stack the most survivabilty?". If for you minimum survivability means runnig plague, run plague. Survivability is a pass/fail mechanic. You can't judge how good a tank is by his survivability. It's about how much survivability you are willing to trade for group support. Bad tanks die and tanks don't. Good tanks are also supproting their group while not dying.

Also, I'm not here to judge you build but... Draugr makes very little sense on a tank. Especially one that is spamming igneous. You can easily run Plague/Ebon and have an even bigger shield and less complains from your groupmates. Just something you can consider.

Nifty2g

webrgesner wrote: »

Is Alkosh really nessesarry for tanks? I seen tanks that dies or doesnt have enough stam. Wouldnt it be better if a stam dps wears alkosh and tank wears an ulti regen set ot a stam and health set

Well, in the terms of if you don't really care about pushing limits and all that, then yeah. Run "tank" sets if you please.

But the reason Alkosh is used on tanks is to help push the group DPS to allow Stamina dd's to wear higher damage sets, it gives you a better out come than an ulti regen set. It depends what you ultimately want to be doing, but generally speaking it's good to have every type of tank set on you for different situations and depends where you want to go as a player.

Most of the replies here aren't exactly helpful for you, they're just players getting annoyed at "elitists" without any understanding of the reasoning behind anything, they just see a set and say that's a dd set you can't run it.

efster

Alkosh is obviously meant to be a stam DD set but the way synergies work right now (and availability of much better damage-boosting sets), it makes no sense for stam DD to run it unless for whatever reason the tank can't (e.g. a brand new tank or a tank who's still learning an encounter and needs to prioritise survival over group buffs temporarily).

If synergies were not localised to the AOE of the skill that provides them (i.e. if a synergy became available for every player engaged in a combat encounter regardless of their position relative to synergy-proccing AOE placement), a lot of these "press synergy button for cool 5pc effect" sets could become much more interesting and varied in their use.

SoLooney

armor and weapon penetration debuff is rare on sets, esp for magic. This case is made stronger now that sunderflame and nightmothers gaze no longer provides a unique weapon debuff and now gives minor and major fracture

BejaProphet

Two big thoughts,

1. Everybody says that support sets are advanced tanking and start with the selfish sets. New tank then proceeds to say, "hey, I'm advanced." And then they get mad that they are expected to wear that when they are getting wrecked. @Royaji described the process very well. The day eventually comes where wearing it isn't a strain on you. That's when you wear it. My personal opinion is that if you are perma blocking in any particular content then that means you aren't ready for Alkosh in that particular content.

2. I really don't understand why tanks begrudge wearing a set like Alkosh. Sets like Alkosh let us massively impact the fight in a circumstance when a tank might otherwise not matter much. In some fights, we will make a huge difference by holding aggro and taking hits. In others it will happen by us stacking mobs. In others we will stand on a geyser, etc, etc. But there are some fights (however few) where it is like there is truly no tanking needed. But even in those fights the tank matters thanks to being able to debuff the creature by over 10k resistances! Why would it make you mad to have an additional aspect about your character that makes you a pivotal role in any and all circumstances? I mean for example, HM Drodda of Ice reach. Could there be a moment in the game that could possibly need a tank less? Taunts are absolutely irrelevant and its a pure DPS contest. We would be worthless, yet thanks to Alkosh, infused crusher, warhorn, pierce armor, Igneous weapons (in my DK's case) and other things, we can so amplify the DPS of our group that we are actually contributing as much if not more than had they brought along an extra DPS instead of a tank. Why would you complain about making your character contribute in so many ways to the group?

nemvar

I read somewhere that SPC (procs with Blood Altar) is actually meta for tanks in most 4 man content because if the tank uses it you can just get three dds instead of a healer. He might have been correct but not sure.

Preyfar

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

Didnt you know that once a notable streamer says that a set is the best set for a particular class then everyone decides nothing else is even viable, let alone possibly better? Jeeze.

Heh. This is so true. So many streamers and build suggestions are like "You need Perfect Relequen for the right build. Grind, grind, grind!"

Yeah, they're good sets, sure, but I can still hit 45K DPS with Hunding's VO, and Kr'aghs. In fact, there's very few major build sets I've seen that were really needed. Sure, some things like a Maelstrom Bow are definitely recommended. Not that the suggestions are bad but they're not realistic builds for the average player. Your average player isn't farming trials non-stop.

That said, Alkosh IS a really good set, but it's not required for tanking. I still run with guys who use Footmans and they do fine. Sets are great and all but they don't make or break most builds. I'm more concerned if the tank knows what they're doing, knows the fights, etc. Alkosh is great for end game trials and stuff but, again, it's not needed.

FakeFox

SilverWF wrote: »

webrgesner wrote: »

Is Alkosh really nessesarry for tanks?

Not at all. But "elitists" would argue with that, no doubt.

Also, FYI, this set is "mandatory" for tanks not because of Stamina pool (Alkosh has zero of it and regen either)
But because it provides additional armor/resists debuff on monsters. And this debuff is special, so it stacks with usual debuffs from skills or enchants.

For an obvious question "why melee DD can't wear it and do the same job?" I'll answer: melee phys DDs are not, let's say, most welcome specs in the dungeons trials. Sure I meant trials

But I'll repeat, this set is NOT mandatory for tanks.

Stamina DDs are currently used in every trail except AS and CR. Never the less the tanks wear alkosh because it is a significant DPS loss for a DD in most fights and tanks have it easier to get high uptimes.

webrgesner

Preyfar wrote: »

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

Didnt you know that once a notable streamer says that a set is the best set for a particular class then everyone decides nothing else is even viable, let alone possibly better? Jeeze.

Heh. This is so true. So many streamers and build suggestions are like "You need Perfect Relequen for the right build. Grind, grind, grind!"

Yeah, they're good sets, sure, but I can still hit 45K DPS with Hunding's VO, and Kr'aghs. In fact, there's very few major build sets I've seen that were really needed. Sure, some things like a Maelstrom Bow are definitely recommended. Not that the suggestions are bad but they're not realistic builds for the average player. Your average player isn't farming trials non-stop.

That said, Alkosh IS a really good set, but it's not required for tanking. I still run with guys who use Footmans and they do fine. Sets are great and all but they don't make or break most builds. I'm more concerned if the tank knows what they're doing, knows the fights, etc. Alkosh is great for end game trials and stuff but, again, it's not needed.

Thank you. People in group trip if tank is not wearing alkosh i dont see the big deal. People in ESO will look down on a tank not wearing alkosh or ebon

Guppet

It’s 100% not needed to complete any content. It’s needed for leaderboards nothing more.

It’s a sad sad thing that most responses assume that every post is about leaderboards. That’s a teeny tiny percentage of players.

The worse thing is that Alkosh isn’t even the biggest issue here. Every reply assumes your a DK too. That’s far more oppressive.

But once again all classes can clear all content in any role. But as it’s the forums all advice assumes leaderboards.

Leaderboards are entirely about squeezing 100% efficiency from players. It’s a very different mindset to the rest of the game. Applying that mindset outside of leaderboards leads to burnout. You don’t need to be running at 100% efficiency for anything else.

Asardes

Alkosh is BiS because the debuff is unique, helps both stamina & magicka DPS and with 3 synergies you can have 100% uptime on it. 3K extra penetration translates to an 8-10% DPS increase, which is much higher than any other buff sets. The only caveat is that it only works in trials and in dungeons groups with a speciffic composition an experience healer that can time synergies right - Warden has an extra synergy (harvest) - and prefferably a Magicka Sorcerer DD (conduit). Even with Alkosh on, and 2-4 piece bonuses not providing health, you can still easily reach 40K HP if you pair it with Ebon Armory, Lord mundus and most attributes in health. Managing resources has very little to do with the sets you are using. I can't really think of a set that wouldn't let you run out of stamina while blocking so changing Alkosh for another is not going to change anything. Stamina sustain depends mostly on your own class sustain mechanism, and group support, not the gear.

Eso101rus

This all depends on your group composition. There are groups that just copy the “meta” and that’s part of what they are copying. It’s easier for magicka dps to reach penetration cap without Alkosh, so this is worth bearing in mind when putting a group together. Personally I run Ebon Jorvulds for trials and that’s buffing health survivability and damage for the group.

Liofa

Royaji wrote: »

If you are running out of stam and dying as a tank get your Alkosh off. Put it in the bank for now and get some Hist's, Alessia's Bulwark, Resilient Yokeda or whatever tanky set you prefer. You will notice the difference. This setup will get you through your first clear. And then you will run again. And again. And again. And then you'll start noticing...

huh, those adds actually don't hit that hard...
...a half decent healer can easily outheal that.
the boss actually has a specific patter to his attacks...
...if I heavy attack here I will always have enough stam to block his heavy.
I need to stand on this corner during that fight so I'm not surprised by any spawning adds.
if I position myself here I will collect all the adds in a nice little group...
...and my DDs can actually burn them so fast that way.
damn, I've already done this dungeon so many times... can we do it quick?

This is when you are ready. Pick up your Alkosh from the bank. You've just learned to play. You don't need tanky sets anymore. Welcome to meta tanking where it's not about "oh god, how can I survive that?!" but "hm, what is the absolute minimum I can surivive this with?".

This comment summed up all "Alkosh on tank" thing perfectly. The bold part especially.

Gprime31

I use Ebon dragon blood spawn for utility

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Guppet wrote: »

It’s 100% not needed to complete any content. It’s needed for leaderboards nothing more.

It’s a sad sad thing that most responses assume that every post is about leaderboards. That’s a teeny tiny percentage of players.

The worse thing is that Alkosh isn’t even the biggest issue here. Every reply assumes your a DK too. That’s far more oppressive.

But once again all classes can clear all content in any role. But as it’s the forums all advice assumes leaderboards.

Leaderboards are entirely about squeezing 100% efficiency from players. It’s a very different mindset to the rest of the game. Applying that mindset outside of leaderboards leads to burnout. You don’t need to be running at 100% efficiency for anything else.

The funny thing is that every post above yours is basically saying, yeah its BIS for pushing score, BUT dont start there and its not needed for a lot of content.