undodgeable skills?

Swimguy

if we have undodgeable skills why are there no skills that hit though shields?

im not talking about weapon glyphs or sets im talking about skills you put on your skill bar

kinda stupid shields have 0 counter play and have to just hope your build/damage is enough to drop them.

Swimguy

people say shields are easy to counter, this is far from the truth. while a sorc is spamming shield you do not count to six and CC. in 100% of bgs (no surprise here) magsorc run around with teammates and you cant just keep pressuring them while they have 1-3 other people with them. if stamina had anything like shield but worse all mag users would be like NERF NOW!!!

all im saying is shields are a low-skill high reward defense that should not come with the value it has and ease of use. along with 0 counterplay if the user is smart enough. magsorcs are far from balanced, but the other classes are fine.

CyrusArya

The fallacy here is framing shields and dodge roll as being parallels, when in so many ways they are not. A major reason being what you’ve already bolded- shields are skills you slot, dodge roll is an innate game mechanic. If anything, the closest comparison to shields would be major heals like vigor or breath of life. But again, the comparison is not valid because of critical differences. For example, how heals can crit, shields cannot. Or how heals can be buffed/debuffed, shields cannot. Shields are a unique game mechanic and have to be appraised as such. Saying shields should operate a certain way because another mechanic does is flawed logic.

Secondly, no one says shields are necessarily easy or hard to counter when they say it’s a l2p issue that certain people struggle so badly against them. Shields are just a tool, and the effectiveness of any tool depends on who is using em. Shields do have counter play, and that counter play is adequate offensive pressure. A sorc that is shielding is burning resources and not doing any damage. Eventually, it will lose the battle of resource attrition or the fight will stall in neither party’s favor.

Objectively that’s how you counter Sorcs- by being good at dealing damage. Subjectively, 90% of Sorcs are absolute cannon fodder and my experience fighting shields just does not align with all the whining I see around here. The only thing op bout Sorcs right now is rune cage and that’s about it. The rest is l2p issues all the way down.

Swimguy

CyrusArya wrote: »

The fallacy here is framing shields and dodge roll as being parallels, when in so many ways they are not. A major reason being what you’ve already bolded- shields are skills you slot, dodge roll is an innate game mechanic. If anything, the closest comparison to shields would be major heals like vigor or breath of life. But again, the comparison is not valid because of critical differences. For example, how heals can crit, shields cannot. Or how heals can be buffed/debuffed, shields cannot. Shields are a unique game mechanic and have to be appraised as such. Saying shields should operate a certain way because another mechanic does is flawed logic.

Secondly, no one says shields are necessarily easy or hard to counter when they say it’s a l2p issue that certain people struggle so badly against them. Shields are just a tool, and the effectiveness of any tool depends on who is using em. Shields do have counter play, and that counter play is adequate offensive pressure. A sorc that is shielding is burning resources and not doing any damage. Eventually, it will lose the battle of resource attrition or the fight will stall in neither party’s favor.

Objectively that’s how you counter Sorcs- by being good at dealing damage. Subjectively, 90% of Sorcs are absolute cannon fodder and my experience fighting shields just does not align with all the whining I see around here. The only thing op bout Sorcs right now is rune cage and that’s about it. The rest is l2p issues all the way down.

might be flawed logic but shields are OP currently so anything is better than what they are now. sorcs can shield in between metoer, curse, Light attacks, and crystal frags. if they arent they suck and deserve to die. The good magsorcs are ridiculously op.

I dont even play magsorc and my first game with necropotence and spinners i went 16-3 using 2 pets. its op and needs to be reworked.

you say its an L2P issue, well so do I learn to kite.

that being said gap closers need nerf

TheYKcid

If it was your first game on your magsorc, then your MMR was literally zero, and you were being matched against the absolute lowest skill-tier of people in the BG pool, so whatever KD you achieved means jack.

Why people keep quoting this exact anecdote, I will never understand.

Swimguy

TheYKcid wrote: »

If it was your first game on your magsorc, then your MMR was literally zero, and you were being matched against the absolute lowest skill-tier of people in the BG pool, so whatever KD you achieved means jack.

Why people keep quoting this exact anecdote, I will never understand.

mmr is account wide so ive heard.

Didgerion

Swimguy wrote: »

people say shields are easy to counter, this is far from the truth. while a sorc is spamming shield you do not count to six and CC. in 100% of bgs (no surprise here) magsorc run around with teammates and you cant just keep pressuring them while they have 1-3 other people with them. if stamina had anything like shield but worse all mag users would be like NERF NOW!!!

all im saying is shields are a low-skill high reward defense that should not come with the value it has and ease of use. along with 0 counterplay if the user is smart enough. magsorcs are far from balanced, but the other classes are fine.

You don't need to counter shields - you just need to melt them down.

There are builds out there that are very good at melting the shields in no time, like the DK's dot builds, or the templars jabs skill that overperforms against shields.
NB on the other hand needs to count as you mentioned above as their burst DPS build is directly countered by the sorc's burst shields.

Now add a skill that goes under shields and the shield will give no protection. The shields already badly under-perform in the oblivion damage meta.

And for the comparison a heavy armor argonian templar build is even more survivable than mag sorc build, yes they lack burst, but they keep team alive, they are much more op than sorcs are in a team play... or is that on your "to be nerfed" list as well?

TheYKcid

It most definitely is not.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/415941/lets-talk-about-the-mmr/p1

Waffennacht

You're funny OP.

Try using a build with PvP stats

Something like 5k wpn dmg + 31k Stam

Or 3k spell dmg 40k mag

If you can't get through Shields you're too weak.

Tonturri

Swimguy wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

The fallacy here is framing shields and dodge roll as being parallels, when in so many ways they are not. A major reason being what you’ve already bolded- shields are skills you slot, dodge roll is an innate game mechanic. If anything, the closest comparison to shields would be major heals like vigor or breath of life. But again, the comparison is not valid because of critical differences. For example, how heals can crit, shields cannot. Or how heals can be buffed/debuffed, shields cannot. Shields are a unique game mechanic and have to be appraised as such. Saying shields should operate a certain way because another mechanic does is flawed logic.

Secondly, no one says shields are necessarily easy or hard to counter when they say it’s a l2p issue that certain people struggle so badly against them. Shields are just a tool, and the effectiveness of any tool depends on who is using em. Shields do have counter play, and that counter play is adequate offensive pressure. A sorc that is shielding is burning resources and not doing any damage. Eventually, it will lose the battle of resource attrition or the fight will stall in neither party’s favor.

Objectively that’s how you counter Sorcs- by being good at dealing damage. Subjectively, 90% of Sorcs are absolute cannon fodder and my experience fighting shields just does not align with all the whining I see around here. The only thing op bout Sorcs right now is rune cage and that’s about it. The rest is l2p issues all the way down.

might be flawed logic but shields are OP currently so anything is better than what they are now. sorcs can shield in between metoer, curse, Light attacks, and crystal frags. if they arent they suck and deserve to die. The good magsorcs are ridiculously op.

I dont even play magsorc and my first game with necropotence and spinners i went 16-3 using 2 pets. its op and needs to be reworked.

you say its an L2P issue, well so do I learn to kite.

that being said gap closers need nerf

I'm not certain you know how this whole...forum, discussion thing works. See, you make an assertion - for example, shields are op - and then you tell us how you came to that conclusion. You seem to do just fine with the assertion but stop right after that. Once that's done, you get people responding to you with rebuttals. You then respond to those rebuttals, and on and on it goes.

You call something OP four time in one post but offer no reasoning as to why (and no, hopping into a bg and crushing scrubs isn't adequate).

Nevasca

I agree that MagSorcs are balanced in a weird way, but your comparison was really weird, I am guessing you meant Fear, Rune Cage and Fossilize that aren't Dodgeable nor Blockable as comparisons, not undodgeable skill in general (which would be any kind of AoE).

Thing with MagSorcs is that If you invest in damage and regen, you automatically get good survivability through shields, while other classes often have to choose between the two, usually the picked are Damage+Survivability(relies on heavys to sustain) and Damage+Sustain(Glass-Cannon). MagSorcs have the three aspects with ease, which when you think about it, is not really fair.

And thus, when you give them a reliable stun to do a proper combo, they become a unstoppable force that has zero drawbacks. They could leave Rune Cage as it is - If they did something to affect their survivability(or perhaps sustain), they wouldn't be able to go glass-cannons without as much drawbacks like any other spec would, and therefore they would be more fair to play against. Rune Cage itself, while terribly annoying, is not the problem itself imo.

Ampnode

Swimguy wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

If it was your first game on your magsorc, then your MMR was literally zero, and you were being matched against the absolute lowest skill-tier of people in the BG pool, so whatever KD you achieved means jack.

Why people keep quoting this exact anecdote, I will never understand.

mmr is account wide so ive heard.

Unfortunately, it isn't. My StamDK gets paired with top players while, for example, my MagSorc that I just started playing again after 2 years is paired with people who can barely use an ability. Same went for my MagTemplar for a few days, but is now getting paired with top players. I wish MMR was account wide, because it isn't fun for me or the newbies who are getting stomped.

As for the argument that that there should be abilities that counter shields... There isn't much thought put into it. MagSorcs don't have a reliable burst heal or HoT like stamina users, so shielding is one of the very few defenses they have, and they also can't spam roll dodge or block.

That said, you have to now give a valid answer to the question: "What can MagSorcs do if they no longer have a defense?" And no, you can't turn it around and say, "What can stamina users do if they no longer have a defense because of undodgeable skills?", because roll dodging isn't the only defense of a stamina user. They have have great heals, damage mitigation, and can use block for longer than 2 seconds.

I only find Rune Cage to be an issue.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

How many nerf sorc threads are you going to make?

Say it with me, L2P.

Shields are a very good defensive tool small scale, but dont scale nearly as well as block, dodgroll, or raw healing when the odds are against you. Like any defensive tool, there are pros and cons to it. The counter is pressure. Good players can pressure a sorc and put them into full defense mode. Two bad players can do the same thing. A sorc can only stack shields for so long until their resources run dry, and then they are the squishiest class in game by far.

Sorcs undeniably are an easier class to learn, because both their offensive and defensive rotations are relatively straight forward, and they are better equipped than a lot of other classes to deal with bad squishy players, because they dont see burst coming. If you cant burn through a shield stack, your Damage is too low. If you constantly get nuked by the first sorc combo you come across, your defense stinks. Both are by definition L2P issues.

Sorcs are a shell of what they once were in this game. Our 3 biggest tools, Shields, Streak, and Frags, have all received serious nerfs. The only recent change to sorcs was they added a damage component to rune cage. That's it. It is one skill that is undoubtedly over-performing on live, and it is already slated for a nerf on PTS.

jediodyn_ESO

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

How many nerf sorc threads are you going to make?

Say it with me, L2P.

Everyone who uses this as an argument should get a temporary forum ban or at least get their post deleted. It’s rude, arrogant, and disrespectful and not constructive.

ak_pvp

CyrusArya wrote: »

Secondly, no one says shields are necessarily easy or hard to counter when they say it’s a l2p issue that certain people struggle so badly against them. Shields are just a tool, and the effectiveness of any tool depends on who is using em. Shields do have counter play, and that counter play is adequate offensive pressure. A sorc that is shielding is burning resources and not doing any damage. Eventually, it will lose the battle of resource attrition or the fight will stall in neither party’s favor.

Now here is where you lost me. Sure I agree you can't compare the two and force counters to be pulled across. But saying pressure = counter is an awful game design. Not everyone can build super high pressure without much tradeoff, even sorcs themselves. For example, Magplar, MagDK and Magden all have a higher tradeoff for high offense/defense, and all mag classes feed mag back to harness.

Because with the same breath, you could say that for tanks, just pressure them, they take damage to the health, and are going to be having to heal, lose resources and lose damage. Hence, have a damage type that ignores them and a way to break block. Defile for instance, is an overtuned counter, but by that logic, remove defile just pressure them, a class healing is a class not doing damage.

Yeah it has hard counters, but no one wants that on either side, too susceptible to use from zergs, not enough from normal players and not fair on the sorc either

Something, anything, needs to be done with shields, not all of us have the benefit of NB level damage, even making it susceptible to a debuffs (ofc defile needs nerfing generally) and buffs, so the user needs to be put effort into combating the counter rather than having nothing to deal with innately.

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