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Divayth Fyr -- The Flipside of Power
AuldWolf
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This little... Hm, what would I call it? Would I be facetious enough to call it a dissertation? Yes, yes I would be facetious enough. But I'm not going to, though. Hm, let's opt for tirade instead, I prefer that word. It is a crutch, though. Perhaps diatribe then, or is that too self-deprecating? No, let's stick with what I know. So, this little tirade is one that's been vivaciously sloshing around in the back of my mind bucket for a while, I just never got around to sharing.
Divayth Fyr, he's a card, isn't he? I've never met a character in the Elder Scrolls Universe so thoroughly misunderstood. It breaks my heart to think about how often he's likely thought of as being cut from the same cloth as that ill-headed fruitcake Gothren. I admit, I can see why; Divayth was born and raised Telvanni so he's neurotic and has a certain defensiveness about him that's the hallmark of someone who's lived through such a toxic environment. The main tell, though, in that there might be something different there is in a tolerance for self-aggrandising idiocy.
Divayth has none. He doesn't appreciate it, no matter where it's aimed. Now, a willingness to call out foolhardy behaviour where'er it might rear its ugly head does not mean that he's praising himself with every other word, just that he has very little patience for people who place pomp and ritual upon a pedestal to which all else is beholden, going so far as to put it not just above quality of life, but life itself. Suffice it to say, he's not a very religious person.
Ultimately, what this means is that Divayth Fyr has a innate distaste for the inauthentic. He sees manipulations, plays, ploys, plots, plans, schemes, and faux hierarchies and wants no part of them. My intrigue was especially piqued by an odd statement that he has no tolerance for bureaucracy, only power. Can we, then, infer from this that Divayth is a sociopath? Well, in our own world, there are plenty of those to be found wriggling around in structures of power, so I can understand why one might arrive at such a deduction, however erroneous. You see, the odd part about it is that there's a lot of self-aggrandising, puffed up bureaucracy in the power structures of the world we're familiar with.
Consider just how much one concerns theirself with cultivating cults of popularity while trying to climb the ranks. To say that Fyr would find that unpalatable is something of an understatement in the extreme. Which probably tells us soemthing about his personal feelings regarding House Telvanni and why he's no longer with them, hm? So why does Divayth value power? What does that mean to him?
It's interesting that Fyr is fine talking with someone right up until they fall back on the aforementioned. If they start talking about Lord Seht then Fyr will be found walking in the opposite direction very, very quickly. This is why the player's character is adequate company. Also worthy of note? A keen eye might note that usually the dialogue of ESO doesn't allow one's character to be particularly erudite, not very bright at all, no. Often things we've figured out long before we're left playing along with instead of being able to blurt out 'I know all about this!'
That's a reflection of the kind of personality they wanted to convey with him. Esssentailly someone who's able to recognise your wit and intellect. I found that very refreshing. I enjoyed his patience, his courtesy, his willingness to entertain my curiosity (a virtuous quality which many characters in ESO lack), his concern, and even his emotional responses to my concern. The latter two were immensely endearing to me. I adored how he played off worrying about my character in such tsundere ways.
"I was starting to get worried! ... About you? Oh, no no no. Just about having to sign autographs if I'd had to wait around any longer."
Sometimes he actually does it with the intent to entertain, but every now and then it's a sign of deeper insecurities linked to his loneliness. A feeling I felt was backed up by how he wasn't shy with praise, either. He puts on a lot of airs, it's not too hard to see right through them if you're an observant sort. He sees himself as being a very unsafe person to be around, in general. He's terrified of letting anyone get too close. It's my belief that with the way he behaves? It's emotional trauma. Something happene dto someone he cared about, and took blame for it.
As such, there's a constant battle within his mind between deflecting people and carefully letting them in. It was a delightful thing watching Fyr slowly open up to me more and more, being willing to let loose further titbits as his trust in the player's character grew. This -- alongside the crows -- was honestly one of my favourite aspects of the Clockwork City, and a large part of why it's stuck with me so much. See, it's lonely at the top, and Divayth Fyr doesn't necessarily want to be there, though frequently he has to be because no one else will.
That's a lot of responsibility and burdens for someone who can actually feel guilt. Which Divayth certainly is able to as I contend that with his feelings expressed toward the player character, there's no way he's sociopathic.
He views his power as isolating. I think he tends to want to do the best with it that he can, he pushes himself hard and strives for perfection. This is why he coudln't stand the notion of being a worshipped God or anythihng like that, because that'd be a misuse of power. At his core, Divayth's an ethical sort. He's very heroic. Certainly as much as can be said about any character in ESO.
Definitely an unsung hero, though.
The point about power is one that I came back to a lot as it's an interesting one. Why value power but not the boons it migh tbring? That seems to be Divayth's jam. He appreciates being powerful but he doesn't want to be loved, adored, or anything like that. Why? At the end of the day, it's the poorly understood difference between friendliness and kindness.
Friendliness is a social tool. It's usually self-servicing and greedy by its very nature, it exists to help its user attain whatever it is they desire. It's a part of the whole lattice of utter nonsense that makes up the unsavoury tenets of socialising, which I'd say generally has more malign aspects to it than good.
Kindness, on the other hand, revolves around being able to empathise, and then what you do with that empathy. It's something that comes from a different place than friendliness. Kindness doesn't necessarily want to be appreciated, or even seen, it just is.
And sometimes it can be much easier to be kind if you're seen as unfriendly. Other people tend to drop their masks and show their inner selves whenever one chooses to not uphold the charade
That's why Divayth has his persona, one that's especially unfriendly. It allows him to cut to the quick of the matter. What he's found though is that people are wired to see friendliness as good, so it can be tricky to get one to help you if you aren't willing to be manipulative. And that's where Fyr has his issues with friendliness, as ultimately it is a manipulation. You're trying to be friendly to get something from someone. Fyr can't bring himself to do it, so he asks the player character to be friendly for him.
He can't bring himself to be unkind enough to be manipulative with someone in order to save them. That's reallly bloody interesting to me. What a character quirk that is! I love it.
How can I put this in a way that it can be understood? Some people believe in manipulating other people for 'their own good.' There are situations where this can have a scant ring of truth to it, but without an innate understanding of the inner workings of that other person's mind, you can't really ever known what 'their own good' actually is. For example, if you use friendliness to talk someone into doing something for 'their own good,' you might end up hurting them.
As has happened every time an extravert has dragged an introvert to a despicable social venue, and the untenable headache that's followed.
Of course, there are much more insidious, sinister variations of this too where one might try to convince another to be 'cured' for 'their own good,' of things like autism, homosexuality, et cetera. This is the problem with friendliness, it's innately self-servicing and selfish, there's nothing that friendliness can actually do to trully help another person. At the very best you can hope you're only inconveniencing them while you get what you want.
Twaddling on a bit, here... Where was I?
Right. There are two expressions of power as I understand them.
One has a friendly face. Ultimately it tends to be very self-servicing and doesn't really always take the good of very many people into account, and even if it tries it only does so on a very superficial, vacuous level which isn't really helpful to anyone at all. This power is more focused upon the person, inwardly, having power over others.
The other is aloof, distant, and very introspective. Slow, plodding, and always thinking and considering the options at hand. Whereas they might seem like they aren't paying attention, though, they'll actually be hoovering up every little detail they can in order to arrive at the most empathetic solution possible. It's about having power for other people, rather than for oneself.
The latter is rare enough to almost be fictional. Divayth is a representation of the latter. He understands that the nature of people isn't always good, he realises what he's getting into when he decides to help someone... And then he does it anyway because with that much power his guilt would never let him sit by and do nothing. Which is why I find him so thoroughly pleasant to be around.
I recall at one point the player character was forced to imply that Divayth is very trying and tiresome. I felt both trolled and called out by this. That's just not cricket, ZOS. Amusing, certainly, but absolutely not on! I felt bad enough for him already with all of the other characters misunderstanding him.
Honestly, though, between the incredibly accurate and detailed depiction of Nicolas as a sociopath (Thieves Guild), and Divayth, I feel that there's a character writer at ZOS that really has an understanding of people that goes beyond most. I find it admirable, and it's always an absolute joy to read. I appreciate whomever this is whenever their work turns up. I remember how cathartic it was to hand Nicolas over to the cops, as I've had to deal with a sociopath or two in my lifetime as well and the experience was... less than welcome.
Hm.
Divayth'd make for a good dragon.
Anyway, yes, my thanks go out to whomever was responsible for writing Divayth. It was fun adventuring with him, for a time.
(I missed an opportunity to write 'cultivating cults' and it was eating at me! Now I have. Written it, I mean. Not the other thing.)
Edited by AuldWolf on July 2, 2018 9:19AM Divayth Fyr, he's a card, isn't he? I've never met a character in the Elder Scrolls Universe so thoroughly misunderstood. It breaks my heart to think about how often he's likely thought of as being cut from the same cloth as that ill-headed fruitcake Gothren. I admit, I can see why; Divayth was born and raised Telvanni so he's neurotic and has a certain defensiveness about him that's the hallmark of someone who's lived through such a toxic environment. The main tell, though, in that there might be something different there is in a tolerance for self-aggrandising idiocy.
Divayth has none. He doesn't appreciate it, no matter where it's aimed. Now, a willingness to call out foolhardy behaviour where'er it might rear its ugly head does not mean that he's praising himself with every other word, just that he has very little patience for people who place pomp and ritual upon a pedestal to which all else is beholden, going so far as to put it not just above quality of life, but life itself. Suffice it to say, he's not a very religious person.
Ultimately, what this means is that Divayth Fyr has a innate distaste for the inauthentic. He sees manipulations, plays, ploys, plots, plans, schemes, and faux hierarchies and wants no part of them. My intrigue was especially piqued by an odd statement that he has no tolerance for bureaucracy, only power. Can we, then, infer from this that Divayth is a sociopath? Well, in our own world, there are plenty of those to be found wriggling around in structures of power, so I can understand why one might arrive at such a deduction, however erroneous. You see, the odd part about it is that there's a lot of self-aggrandising, puffed up bureaucracy in the power structures of the world we're familiar with.
Consider just how much one concerns theirself with cultivating cults of popularity while trying to climb the ranks. To say that Fyr would find that unpalatable is something of an understatement in the extreme. Which probably tells us soemthing about his personal feelings regarding House Telvanni and why he's no longer with them, hm? So why does Divayth value power? What does that mean to him?
It's interesting that Fyr is fine talking with someone right up until they fall back on the aforementioned. If they start talking about Lord Seht then Fyr will be found walking in the opposite direction very, very quickly. This is why the player's character is adequate company. Also worthy of note? A keen eye might note that usually the dialogue of ESO doesn't allow one's character to be particularly erudite, not very bright at all, no. Often things we've figured out long before we're left playing along with instead of being able to blurt out 'I know all about this!'
That's a reflection of the kind of personality they wanted to convey with him. Esssentailly someone who's able to recognise your wit and intellect. I found that very refreshing. I enjoyed his patience, his courtesy, his willingness to entertain my curiosity (a virtuous quality which many characters in ESO lack), his concern, and even his emotional responses to my concern. The latter two were immensely endearing to me. I adored how he played off worrying about my character in such tsundere ways.
"I was starting to get worried! ... About you? Oh, no no no. Just about having to sign autographs if I'd had to wait around any longer."
Sometimes he actually does it with the intent to entertain, but every now and then it's a sign of deeper insecurities linked to his loneliness. A feeling I felt was backed up by how he wasn't shy with praise, either. He puts on a lot of airs, it's not too hard to see right through them if you're an observant sort. He sees himself as being a very unsafe person to be around, in general. He's terrified of letting anyone get too close. It's my belief that with the way he behaves? It's emotional trauma. Something happene dto someone he cared about, and took blame for it.
As such, there's a constant battle within his mind between deflecting people and carefully letting them in. It was a delightful thing watching Fyr slowly open up to me more and more, being willing to let loose further titbits as his trust in the player's character grew. This -- alongside the crows -- was honestly one of my favourite aspects of the Clockwork City, and a large part of why it's stuck with me so much. See, it's lonely at the top, and Divayth Fyr doesn't necessarily want to be there, though frequently he has to be because no one else will.
That's a lot of responsibility and burdens for someone who can actually feel guilt. Which Divayth certainly is able to as I contend that with his feelings expressed toward the player character, there's no way he's sociopathic.
He views his power as isolating. I think he tends to want to do the best with it that he can, he pushes himself hard and strives for perfection. This is why he coudln't stand the notion of being a worshipped God or anythihng like that, because that'd be a misuse of power. At his core, Divayth's an ethical sort. He's very heroic. Certainly as much as can be said about any character in ESO.
Definitely an unsung hero, though.
The point about power is one that I came back to a lot as it's an interesting one. Why value power but not the boons it migh tbring? That seems to be Divayth's jam. He appreciates being powerful but he doesn't want to be loved, adored, or anything like that. Why? At the end of the day, it's the poorly understood difference between friendliness and kindness.
Friendliness is a social tool. It's usually self-servicing and greedy by its very nature, it exists to help its user attain whatever it is they desire. It's a part of the whole lattice of utter nonsense that makes up the unsavoury tenets of socialising, which I'd say generally has more malign aspects to it than good.
Kindness, on the other hand, revolves around being able to empathise, and then what you do with that empathy. It's something that comes from a different place than friendliness. Kindness doesn't necessarily want to be appreciated, or even seen, it just is.
And sometimes it can be much easier to be kind if you're seen as unfriendly. Other people tend to drop their masks and show their inner selves whenever one chooses to not uphold the charade
That's why Divayth has his persona, one that's especially unfriendly. It allows him to cut to the quick of the matter. What he's found though is that people are wired to see friendliness as good, so it can be tricky to get one to help you if you aren't willing to be manipulative. And that's where Fyr has his issues with friendliness, as ultimately it is a manipulation. You're trying to be friendly to get something from someone. Fyr can't bring himself to do it, so he asks the player character to be friendly for him.
He can't bring himself to be unkind enough to be manipulative with someone in order to save them. That's reallly bloody interesting to me. What a character quirk that is! I love it.
How can I put this in a way that it can be understood? Some people believe in manipulating other people for 'their own good.' There are situations where this can have a scant ring of truth to it, but without an innate understanding of the inner workings of that other person's mind, you can't really ever known what 'their own good' actually is. For example, if you use friendliness to talk someone into doing something for 'their own good,' you might end up hurting them.
As has happened every time an extravert has dragged an introvert to a despicable social venue, and the untenable headache that's followed.
Of course, there are much more insidious, sinister variations of this too where one might try to convince another to be 'cured' for 'their own good,' of things like autism, homosexuality, et cetera. This is the problem with friendliness, it's innately self-servicing and selfish, there's nothing that friendliness can actually do to trully help another person. At the very best you can hope you're only inconveniencing them while you get what you want.
Twaddling on a bit, here... Where was I?
Right. There are two expressions of power as I understand them.
One has a friendly face. Ultimately it tends to be very self-servicing and doesn't really always take the good of very many people into account, and even if it tries it only does so on a very superficial, vacuous level which isn't really helpful to anyone at all. This power is more focused upon the person, inwardly, having power over others.
The other is aloof, distant, and very introspective. Slow, plodding, and always thinking and considering the options at hand. Whereas they might seem like they aren't paying attention, though, they'll actually be hoovering up every little detail they can in order to arrive at the most empathetic solution possible. It's about having power for other people, rather than for oneself.
The latter is rare enough to almost be fictional. Divayth is a representation of the latter. He understands that the nature of people isn't always good, he realises what he's getting into when he decides to help someone... And then he does it anyway because with that much power his guilt would never let him sit by and do nothing. Which is why I find him so thoroughly pleasant to be around.
I recall at one point the player character was forced to imply that Divayth is very trying and tiresome. I felt both trolled and called out by this. That's just not cricket, ZOS. Amusing, certainly, but absolutely not on! I felt bad enough for him already with all of the other characters misunderstanding him.
Honestly, though, between the incredibly accurate and detailed depiction of Nicolas as a sociopath (Thieves Guild), and Divayth, I feel that there's a character writer at ZOS that really has an understanding of people that goes beyond most. I find it admirable, and it's always an absolute joy to read. I appreciate whomever this is whenever their work turns up. I remember how cathartic it was to hand Nicolas over to the cops, as I've had to deal with a sociopath or two in my lifetime as well and the experience was... less than welcome.
Hm.
Divayth'd make for a good dragon.
Anyway, yes, my thanks go out to whomever was responsible for writing Divayth. It was fun adventuring with him, for a time.
(I missed an opportunity to write 'cultivating cults' and it was eating at me! Now I have. Written it, I mean. Not the other thing.)
9
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Leandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'm not deep enough into lore and canon to even begin to comment on topic, but heavens above, I adore your style of writing, mate. Thanks for a thoroughly entertaining read.Edited by Leandor on July 2, 2018 9:22AM0 -
Aliyavana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Divayth dye is lonely and clones himself to have daughters that he married. He is a interesting fella1 -
WhiteCoatSyndrome✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sometimes he actually does it with the intent to entertain, but every now and then it's a sign of deeper insecurities linked to his loneliness. A feeling I felt was backed up by how he wasn't shy with praise, either. He puts on a lot of airs, it's not too hard to see right through them if you're an observant sort. He sees himself as being a very unsafe person to be around, in general. He's terrified of letting anyone get too close. It's my belief that with the way he behaves? It's emotional trauma. Something happene dto someone he cared about, and took blame for it.
Curious if you've read the base race Motif books? Might be what you're looking for here.#proud2BAStarObsessedLoony
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
A useful explanation for how RNG works
How to turn off the sustainability features (screen dimming, fps cap) on PC1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I mostly enjoyed the chance to hang out with him when I wasn't suffering from Corprus Disease and hoping his cure didn't kill me.
Once I got cured, though, there was this whole "Nerevarine" business that had to be taken care of...1 -
Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭That was a very interesting read, and even though I don't know much about Divayth Fyr, I think you make many great points about his personality and views on power. Perhaps the reason he seems aloof and not easy to engage with, is because coming from Dunmeri society taught him to always have 'walls' up, and also probaly put him off socializing, cliques, and manipulative behaviour. It seems like he would do whataver is necessary when high stakes are in place, but that he would be upfront about it, and wouldn't be afraid to get his own hands dirty, so to speak. The moment when he is fighting with the Vestige to reclaim his shadow comes to mind: he fights along although he is weakened, and upon reuniting with his shadow, he does that awesome move where he decimates all the looming fabricants, and ends the encounter.
On a funny note, Dunmer Houses always reminded me of Gossip Girl, however silly that sounds, in that there is always a scheme, an ulterior motive in the quest for dominance and hierarchy, and everything else is collateral damage. Divayth Fyr cleared distanced himself from things like that, but he is not as naive as not to recognize power or the implications of weilding it. And although I'm not familiar with the lore, I'm sure it wasn't always like that, and he probably made a few mistakes in his youth--it comes with acquring such wisdom. The difference is the motivation behind it, and I do think Divayth's motives are good, not necessarily completely selfless, but still fundamentally moral. The complete antithesis of him would Mannimarco, the way I see it.0 -
yiasemi✭✭✭✭WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »Sometimes he actually does it with the intent to entertain, but every now and then it's a sign of deeper insecurities linked to his loneliness. A feeling I felt was backed up by how he wasn't shy with praise, either. He puts on a lot of airs, it's not too hard to see right through them if you're an observant sort. He sees himself as being a very unsafe person to be around, in general. He's terrified of letting anyone get too close. It's my belief that with the way he behaves? It's emotional trauma. Something happene dto someone he cared about, and took blame for it.
Curious if you've read the base race Motif books? Might be what you're looking for here.
Yep, if you don't have the motifs or never read them read the blue ones and On Oblivion
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Crafting_Motifs
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:On_Oblivion
0 -
WhiteCoatSyndrome✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »Sometimes he actually does it with the intent to entertain, but every now and then it's a sign of deeper insecurities linked to his loneliness. A feeling I felt was backed up by how he wasn't shy with praise, either. He puts on a lot of airs, it's not too hard to see right through them if you're an observant sort. He sees himself as being a very unsafe person to be around, in general. He's terrified of letting anyone get too close. It's my belief that with the way he behaves? It's emotional trauma. Something happene dto someone he cared about, and took blame for it.
Curious if you've read the base race Motif books? Might be what you're looking for here.
Yep, if you don't have the motifs or never read them read the blue ones and On Oblivion
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Crafting_Motifs
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:On_Oblivion
+ the Imperial Motif to finish the story off.
The Doors of Oblivion is related too. #proud2BAStarObsessedLoony
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
A useful explanation for how RNG works
How to turn off the sustainability features (screen dimming, fps cap) on PC0 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭He also struck me as a very caring person, although he wouldn't show that so openly.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.1 -
CaptainBones✭✭Divayth doesn't like beurocracy and knows he is powerful but doesn't go around bragging about it in order to cheat the system and gain advantages. He dislikes cheap tricks and schemes and strikes me as an honourable person. And he's got a badass set of armour to top it all off.
He's alright in my book.1