Possible solution to the proc-set meta

fred4

EDIT: I am retracting this idea, because I now think it would create too many new problems. If you're still interested in the discussion, read on.

Many people agree that proc sets are overperforming, especially in no CP. Many people don't so much have a problem with proc sets per-se, but the following:

(A) Proc sets can be stacked by a single player and may generate burst, when they coincide, without the player utilising any skill to generate that burst.

(B) Procs from multiple players can be stacked on a single target. This is especially grievous in the case of Oblivion damage (Sloads), which has limited mitigation options.

A possible solution is the introduction of a global cooldown. This would mean that damage-dealing proc sets could not fire simultaneously, as they share that common cooldown. I am proposing an alternative solution that, I think, may be even better:

Use the existing cooldowns of all damage-dealing proc sets, but make them apply to the target. Currently each proc set's cooldown applies to the attacker. While Sloads, for example, is on cooldown, the attacker cannot apply the effect to the target again, nor to any other target. By shifting the cooldown to the target I mean the following:

(A) The target may only be affected by one effect of each type. For example, while they are affected by the Sloads DOT, neither the player that applied that DOT nor any other player may apply Sloads again. Similarly, if a target gets hit by Caluurion, no player may hit them with Caluurion again for 10 seconds.

(B) A single player may attack multiple targets in quick succession and may apply a proc on all of them, if the targets were not already affected by that proc.

This would do three things:

(1) It would encourage build diversity, since it would be advantageous to have a mixed group that can place all sorts of different effects on the enemy group.

(2) It would lessen the impact of particularly grievous procs (Sloads), since multiple instances of that proc cannot be stacked on a single player.

(3) It would favor 1vXers and smaller groups, because (B) makes a single player's procs more effective against multiple enemies.

I am thinking from a PvP perspective. I am unsure how this would affect the RAID meta. It may encourage build diversity, there, too, but I think proc sets are less common in RAID groups, so it might not affect that meta much at all. If this was a concern, perhaps the shifting of cooldowns from attacker to target could be made part of Battle Spirit, thus affecting PvP only.

There are some things not addressed by my proposal. It really counteracts damage over time procs, such as Sloads and Viper, more than it counteracts burst proc stacking, although it does counter being Xv1d with multiple burst procs of the same type. It may be an idea to add a global cooldown as well, so as to avoid being bursted by procs of different types simultaneously. I would, however, keep that cooldown down to one second, merely so that stacking burst procs, such as Caluurion and A.N.Other, in the same GCD is disallowed. Combined with the above, this would disallow a single player stacking burst procs, as well as multiple players stacking burst procs on a single target in the same GCD. Note that players could still generate burst using weapon and class skills, combined with a single burst proc.

Finally this does not address the stacking of Sloads and Durok's Bane, nor the fact that Oblivion damage really only has two counters (healing and purge), which is something that limits build diversity in terms of defense. Does anything more need to be done to address that particular combo? I don't know. My feeling is that, in a 1v1, you sacrifice overall damage running those two sets together.

DeadlyRecluse

fred4 wrote: »

Use the existing cooldowns of all damage-dealing proc sets, but make them apply to the target. Currently each proc set's cooldown applies to the attacker. While Sloads, for example, is on cooldown, the attacker cannot apply the effect to the target again, nor to any other target. By shifting the cooldown to the target I mean the following:
.....
(B) A single player may attack multiple targets in quick succession and may apply a proc on all of them, if the targets were not already affected by that proc.

I have no real problem with the spirit of the idea, except this interaction (without further balancing) makes a few sets absolutely insane.

Stack AOE dots, wear skoria. drop 6-7 meteors at a time.

Or conversely, impulse a zerg to proc a handful of nerieneth crystals.

Or, if you take it to it's furthest extent, steel tornado inside a clump, proc Velidreth on all of them, instagib everything in front of you.

fred4

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Use the existing cooldowns of all damage-dealing proc sets, but make them apply to the target. Currently each proc set's cooldown applies to the attacker. While Sloads, for example, is on cooldown, the attacker cannot apply the effect to the target again, nor to any other target. By shifting the cooldown to the target I mean the following:
.....
(B) A single player may attack multiple targets in quick succession and may apply a proc on all of them, if the targets were not already affected by that proc.

I have no real problem with the spirit of the idea, except this interaction (without further balancing) makes a few sets absolutely insane.

Stack AOE dots, wear skoria. drop 6-7 meteors at a time.

Or conversely, impulse a zerg to proc a handful of nerieneth crystals.

Or, if you take it to it's furthest extent, steel tornado inside a clump, proc Velidreth on all of them, instagib everything in front of you.

Oh, you've indeed found the fatal flaw, haven't you. Needs more thought then. The recurring problem you bring up is proc sets that have an AOE or multiple damage component. Also using AOE to trigger procs on multiple enemies.

Of course you could stick to the idea and invent a bunch of additional mechanisms, such as having different rules for AOE procs as well as having different activation rules, such as from single-target damage only. However it wasn't my intention to completely change everything and create a host of new problems. I guess this won't work so.

ak_pvp

I agree with the general idea of shifting the strengths to 1vX instead of 1v1.

I'd prefer it be done less RNG style though, so skoria would be every X dot ticks it drops. Something like 30 seems fair, every 5s with 6 effects going. Then scrap the cooldown. That would mean it'd proc more from hitting more people, which fits well, since dotting up multiple people is a lot harder, so a better return on hitting multiple.

AoEs can always be outstepped.

Bergzorn

fred4 wrote: »

A possible solution is the introduction of a global cooldown.

I stopped reading here. Not because I think it is a bad idea, it isn't.

A global cooldown was an often proposed and by many favored idea to deal with proc sets during the Viper/Velidreth/Widowmaker etc. proctard burst area. The change implemented by ZOS was that proc sets no longer crit, and it was possibly not even done for PvP reasons.

fred4

fred4 wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Use the existing cooldowns of all damage-dealing proc sets, but make them apply to the target. Currently each proc set's cooldown applies to the attacker. While Sloads, for example, is on cooldown, the attacker cannot apply the effect to the target again, nor to any other target. By shifting the cooldown to the target I mean the following:
.....
(B) A single player may attack multiple targets in quick succession and may apply a proc on all of them, if the targets were not already affected by that proc.

I have no real problem with the spirit of the idea, except this interaction (without further balancing) makes a few sets absolutely insane.

Stack AOE dots, wear skoria. drop 6-7 meteors at a time.

Or conversely, impulse a zerg to proc a handful of nerieneth crystals.

Or, if you take it to it's furthest extent, steel tornado inside a clump, proc Velidreth on all of them, instagib everything in front of you.

Oh, you've indeed found the fatal flaw, haven't you. Needs more thought then. The recurring problem you bring up is proc sets that have an AOE or multiple damage component. Also using AOE to trigger procs on multiple enemies.

Of course you could stick to the idea and invent a bunch of additional mechanisms, such as having different rules for AOE procs as well as having different activation rules, such as from single-target damage only. However it wasn't my intention to completely change everything and create a host of new problems. I guess this won't work so.

On second thought, all sets have a cooldown or RNG conditions attached to them. Even though you could trigger lots of Skoria / Nerieneth / Velidreth bombs with AOE, that should not mean that everyone will be hit with everyone else's AOE component of the damage, if this was properly implemented. For example, consider two people being hit with Steel Tornado, and Velidreth being procd twice. Because of the per-target cooldown, each target could only be hit once with Velidreth. It would not instantly nuke them, because the damage could not stack. That said, it would still amplify the AOE capability of 1vXers tremendously, especially bomb-blades, and that may well be a step too far. The implementation details also get rather murky with sets that only have a proc chance, but no cooldown, but the interactions needn't be as bad as I thought when I first read your post.

fred4

Bergzorn wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

A possible solution is the introduction of a global cooldown.

I stopped reading here. Not because I think it is a bad idea, it isn't.

A global cooldown was an often proposed and by many favored idea to deal with proc sets during the Viper/Velidreth/Widowmaker etc. proctard burst area. The change implemented by ZOS was that proc sets no longer crit, and it was possibly not even done for PvP reasons.

If you'd kept reading, my proposal is something else.

So what you're saying is, ZOS will do their own thing, and this thread is pointless?

Bergzorn

I don't want to discourage you to share and discuss your ideas. I just turned into a real cynic when it comes to ZOS and their game balance.

fred4

Bergzorn wrote: »

I don't want to discourage you to share and discuss your ideas. I just turned into a real cynic when it comes to ZOS and their game balance.

I am hoping that a certain person taking up a job at ZOS - Gilliam the Rogue, cough - will read threads like these. Not because this is a finished idea, nor because it's the only one, but he would have the smarts and the knowledge to draw from the forums and work out the details. He has pointed out himself that his role and potential influence at ZOS is unknown. I'm not banking on anything, but it sure seems ZOS could put him to good use working on balancing.

DeadlyRecluse

fred4 wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Use the existing cooldowns of all damage-dealing proc sets, but make them apply to the target. Currently each proc set's cooldown applies to the attacker. While Sloads, for example, is on cooldown, the attacker cannot apply the effect to the target again, nor to any other target. By shifting the cooldown to the target I mean the following:
.....
(B) A single player may attack multiple targets in quick succession and may apply a proc on all of them, if the targets were not already affected by that proc.

I have no real problem with the spirit of the idea, except this interaction (without further balancing) makes a few sets absolutely insane.

Stack AOE dots, wear skoria. drop 6-7 meteors at a time.

Or conversely, impulse a zerg to proc a handful of nerieneth crystals.

Or, if you take it to it's furthest extent, steel tornado inside a clump, proc Velidreth on all of them, instagib everything in front of you.

Oh, you've indeed found the fatal flaw, haven't you. Needs more thought then. The recurring problem you bring up is proc sets that have an AOE or multiple damage component. Also using AOE to trigger procs on multiple enemies.

Of course you could stick to the idea and invent a bunch of additional mechanisms, such as having different rules for AOE procs as well as having different activation rules, such as from single-target damage only. However it wasn't my intention to completely change everything and create a host of new problems. I guess this won't work so.

On second thought, all sets have a cooldown or RNG conditions attached to them. Even though you could trigger lots of Skoria / Nerieneth / Velidreth bombs with AOE, that should not mean that everyone will be hit with everyone else's AOE component of the damage, if this was properly implemented. For example, consider two people being hit with Steel Tornado, and Velidreth being procd twice. Because of the per-target cooldown, each target could only be hit once with Velidreth. It would not instantly nuke them, because the damage could not stack. That said, it would still amplify the AOE capability of 1vXers tremendously, especially bomb-blades, and that may well be a step too far. The implementation details also get rather murky with sets that only have a proc chance, but no cooldown, but the interactions needn't be as bad as I thought when I first read your post.

Well, it depends.

Is the cooldown a cooldown on damage, or on proc? or both?

The issue I highlighted was basically proccing a set just once on a bunch of different people, leading to them taking the damage multiple times, right? But if the cooldown was just on being damaged by a given set, you'd have a different set of issues:

1. A bunch of Valkyn meteors are incoming. I take an aoe tick from a meteor not targeting me--can I know ignore the space rock coming at my head?
2. Velidreth procs often don't hit the person on whom the set was procced--so I could still hit say arrow spray, proc velidreth a bunch, and release a cone of insanedamage balls--that's either a recipe for an OP zergwipe build, or a situation where one person could just hop in front and eat all the balls before they spread out...depends on how it's implemented.
3. What about sets like Thunderbug, or Grothdar--if there's a global cooldown, per set, on damage recieved, can those sets effectively only deal one tick of damage now? Same for something like Malubeth or Zaan--a per set cooldown renders them obsolete (but, in those cases, a proc cooldown would work wonderfully!).

...I really don't think there's a single solution for the proc issue. The best bet, imo, is for each set to actually behave in a way that makes sense given current mechanics rather than a mechanical overhaul. Really, only a few sets are too strong, and I don't know if a complete mechanical overhaul is justified to bring them in line.

Waffennacht

fred4 wrote: »

Bergzorn wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

A possible solution is the introduction of a global cooldown.

I stopped reading here. Not because I think it is a bad idea, it isn't.

A global cooldown was an often proposed and by many favored idea to deal with proc sets during the Viper/Velidreth/Widowmaker etc. proctard burst area. The change implemented by ZOS was that proc sets no longer crit, and it was possibly not even done for PvP reasons.

If you'd kept reading, my proposal is something else.

So what you're saying is, ZOS will do their own thing, and this thread is pointless?

Have you never been on the PTS?

The answer is: Yes

idk

I am not a fan of stacking proc sets, or proc sets in general but they were part of the game when we started. There is no getting rid of them now though they can be adjusted, and have been.

However, OP is suggesting rendering proc sets essentially useless in PvP since we do not know when they will be rendered moot just because someone else is using them.

We essentially has this same discussion 4 years ago concerning DoTs because many DoTs of the same morph, but from different players would not stack on a single target. Clearly that was fixed since it did in fact remove players DoTs from targets when someone else applied the same DoT.

Further, it is likely to hurt the performance of Cyrodiil further since it would require a server side tracking of each and every player in order to prevent multiple procs of the same kind from different players on the same target. That is hard enough to type let alone how the server would handle it effectively. Proc sets could already be behind server performance issues as it is.

Of course CDs within the sets of one player can be adjusted, but not between players.

fred4

idk wrote: »

However, OP is suggesting rendering proc sets essentially useless in PvP since we do not know when they will be rendered moot just because someone else is using them.

Well, if someone else is using them, then you are Xv1ning a target at that particular moment, so I would say you already have an advantage. That's kind of the point of the change, to reduce Xv1 damage. Are you sure you're not thinking about PvE?

Further, it is likely to hurt the performance of Cyrodiil further since it would require a server side tracking of each and every player in order to prevent multiple procs of the same kind from different players on the same target. That is hard enough to type let alone how the server would handle it effectively.

I would leave that to ZOS to determine. I am a programmer, by the way, and I don't see a big difference between tracking cooldowns for the attacker vs. tracking cooldowns for the target. I would concede that there could be more things to track, if you do it per target, but really that's just a question of using the right data structure. Since there is a finite amount of proc sets, a simple array might do or, failing that, a small hash table. Either way the performance will NOT be dependent on the number of effects that are on the target, but it will be constant. The only thing is that server memory requirements may rise. That could be significant or totally insignificant. Only ZOS could tell you.

fred4

Well, I think DeadlyRecluse has pretty much rebuffed my idea. It's not like it couldn't be made to work, maybe it would even be good, but clearly it would also create a new set of problems and I don't think that's what we want. It's certainly not what I had in mind. I agree with everyone who says ZOS should stick to fine tuning rather than making sweeping changes, and this would result in much more of a sweeping change than I thought.

idk

fred4 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

However, OP is suggesting rendering proc sets essentially useless in PvP since we do not know when they will be rendered moot just because someone else is using them.

Well, if someone else is using them, then you are Xv1ning a target at that particular moment, so I would say you already have an advantage. That's kind of the point of the change, to reduce Xv1 damage. Are you sure you're not thinking about PvE?

Further, it is likely to hurt the performance of Cyrodiil further since it would require a server side tracking of each and every player in order to prevent multiple procs of the same kind from different players on the same target. That is hard enough to type let alone how the server would handle it effectively.

I would leave that to ZOS to determine. I am a programmer, by the way, and I don't see a big difference between tracking cooldowns for the attacker vs. tracking cooldowns for the target. I would concede that there could be more things to track, if you do it per target, but really that's just a question of using the right data structure. Since there is a finite amount of proc sets, a simple array might do or, failing that, a small hash table. Either way the performance will NOT be dependent on the number of effects that are on the target, but it will be constant. The only thing is that server memory requirements may rise. That could be significant or totally insignificant. Only ZOS could tell you.

The advantage of multiple attackers on a target is irrelevant. It is generally a good idea when one group deals with another to work most efficiently. Your idea forces well organized groups to use other sets or be less organized. That just does not sound good for an MMORPG environment. I think you may assume Xv1 is really a group targeting a lone individual. That is not always the case, but nothing wrong with it.

Of course you will leave it to Zos to determine, as will myself and the rest of us. We really do not have much choice.

Great that you are a programmer and if you are a programmer with a depth of experience you would understand how different one environment can be from another which would lead you to the conclusion that you might not know much about how the ESO code and the servers that run each environment are organized. I have worked with multiple corporate networks (that have tons of servers) and I understand I have little clue as to how the ESO system works.

Ankael07

The only solution to OP proc set problem is to stop buying the DLC it comes from

GreenSoup2HoT

The solution is proc based scaling. That way you cant have a pure tank run seleane or zaan and be effective. Same goes for stacking procs, if you have low base damage the proc damage is less also.

ChunkyCat

Honest question, seriously:

So when you come up with these multi paragraph, book worthy chapters of text, for a “suggestion” that you think would make the game better, do you actually think the developers are going to take you seriously?


Ok. That came out way more mean than I meant it to be.

Soh-wee.