Should Werewolf be a toggled transformation with greater detriments?

Aznox

1. The abilities would scale off of the highest pool: stamina or magicka, as well as weapon or spell damage.

You've just switched Werewolf from one of the most viable hybrid setup to the single worst setup to use hybrid on, congrats !

... you're going to answer "Ok, let's make it based on total stats" but that would render hybrid build mandatory for werewolf and not a viable choice like it is now ... try again.

2. It wouldn't. As a toggle activation, you gain nothing from Battle Roar since nothing is paid upon activating the Ultimate. Using WW abilities while in WW has no effect on battle roar because those abilities are not ultimates.

Yeah ... DK werewolves are going to like that for sure ..

3. Yes, they would. This is no different from Overload attacks.

Don't stop there, give us some numbers, you seem to have everything figured out.

4. Activation is a toggle as thus has no upfront cost to toggle on, but would have non-cancellable a transformation animation.

Do you keep the fear ? The invuln frames ? You know about the invuln frames do you ?

5. Ultimate costs for WW abilities are static values, unaffected by gear or class passives that reduce costs.

A bit more washing down, always good to take !

6. Any active effects, buffs, and debuffs "fall-off" during transformation between states, with an animation between shifting forms.

More dumbing down ...

Slotted abilities such as Inner Light or Expert Hunter would fall off since they are obviously not present on the WW bar.

Already the case.

Gear bonuses do not apply in WW form as the WW gets its own stat/effect buffs while transformed.

You just said it was based on max resources ...?

Gear sets that effect WW duration or costs would obviously be reworked in some way such as having bonuses that affect both human and WW form, allowing the one exception to the "no gear bonuses" rule. This allows the gear to remain interesting and useful to WW players.

Why gear setS ? There's only Salvation, as a werewolf player you know that, right ?

A player can choose to gear for WW or their human form, whichever they feel they will use more often.

So like now ? but with less options ?


What's up with players who think a forum post is anywhere enough thought to make a good job at redesigning something that is 95% fine ?

AlnilamE

AuldWolf wrote: »

I think one of the main problems for werewolf is that it comes from the delusional pre-One Tamriel period where ZOS believed that there was more than a couple of hundred players -- at most -- who'd be playing in big groups. This is compared to the thousands upon thousands who don't. What this means is that werewolf uptime is tied to being in a group, which either makes it a PvP skill (as noted), or something that you just have for roleplaying or fun. It has absolutely no real utility outside of PvP.

In order to make it a PvE skill line, it has to be retooled to fit the new way of thinking. That ESO is a solo/small group game. You can tell that this changed happened inside of ZOS based upon the marketing. That's why I don't feel too worried about the hardcore contingent pushing for harder overland content (those experiments were tried with Craglorn and Cadwell's and we all know how that went). ZOS has settled into ESO being a game that the vast, vast majority of people play solo or as a small (3 max) group. Again, check the marketing.

Werewolf is old times, though, like I said. Anything from before this switch just doesn't fit into the game as it is now. Werewolf is from the time before this switch. It needs a huge retool to fit small group play in PvE. That's how it can become relevant to the PvE side of the game. Werewolf needs to benefit solo/small group play. That's where the quality of life needs to be focused. Whether that's making werewolf a toggle, allowing for longer uptimes when playing solo/small groups, or what have you. It's where the focus should be, it's -- frankly -- where I'd expect it to be.

That's what I'm hoping for from Wolfhunter.

Edit: Well, that and the new werewolf aesthetic as the player werewolf form, too. Gimme my Goldenwolf bangs, ZOS! Don't think I didn't see them in your preview images. I want those for my werewolf!

What makes you think that it was designed to be played in large groups? Before the change to the Call of the Pack passive, you had to have the Pack Leader ultimate to make people stay in form longer. But you were competing with group members for bodies to devour. Now you have the Call of the Pack passive, but it caps out at 4.

So I feel like WW was always designed to be a solo/small group thing. Why do you believe otherwise?

AuldWolf

@AlnilamE

The very simple math of more werewolves leading to more meal availability. The more snacks you have ready to feast on, the better you can keep the bar up. With all allied werewolves providing snacks for their friends, it becomes much easier to sustain werewolf over a longer period. So the larger the group, the more sustain you have. Plus, you have more people guarding your back while you're snacking to make sure you don't come out of increasing your timer into a very bad situation. The whole feel of werewolf is still suited to bigger groups, as far as I see it.

If it were that only X amount of people could snack on one corpse, then it'd probably not be so great. But I don't believe it's ever been that way and it still isn't, right? So, the math works out.

Edit: Hm. Giving werewolf an AoE taunt might go a long way to fixing this as that'd allow a smaller group to handle rotating feeding. Still, it's overall more focused around more numbers. The more numbers you have, the easier it is.

And honestly, I still don't think that the number of players who're werewolf should factor into how long it lasts. Since most players play as 1-3. Having it cap at 4 doesn't help solo werewolves at all.
 

Chrlynsch

AlnilamE wrote: »

AuldWolf wrote: »

I think one of the main problems for werewolf is that it comes from the delusional pre-One Tamriel period where ZOS believed that there was more than a couple of hundred players -- at most -- who'd be playing in big groups. This is compared to the thousands upon thousands who don't. What this means is that werewolf uptime is tied to being in a group, which either makes it a PvP skill (as noted), or something that you just have for roleplaying or fun. It has absolutely no real utility outside of PvP.

In order to make it a PvE skill line, it has to be retooled to fit the new way of thinking. That ESO is a solo/small group game. You can tell that this changed happened inside of ZOS based upon the marketing. That's why I don't feel too worried about the hardcore contingent pushing for harder overland content (those experiments were tried with Craglorn and Cadwell's and we all know how that went). ZOS has settled into ESO being a game that the vast, vast majority of people play solo or as a small (3 max) group. Again, check the marketing.

Werewolf is old times, though, like I said. Anything from before this switch just doesn't fit into the game as it is now. Werewolf is from the time before this switch. It needs a huge retool to fit small group play in PvE. That's how it can become relevant to the PvE side of the game. Werewolf needs to benefit solo/small group play. That's where the quality of life needs to be focused. Whether that's making werewolf a toggle, allowing for longer uptimes when playing solo/small groups, or what have you. It's where the focus should be, it's -- frankly -- where I'd expect it to be.

That's what I'm hoping for from Wolfhunter.

Edit: Well, that and the new werewolf aesthetic as the player werewolf form, too. Gimme my Goldenwolf bangs, ZOS! Don't think I didn't see them in your preview images. I want those for my werewolf!

What makes you think that it was designed to be played in large groups? Before the change to the Call of the Pack passive, you had to have the Pack Leader ultimate to make people stay in form longer. But you were competing with group members for bodies to devour. Now you have the Call of the Pack passive, but it caps out at 4.

So I feel like WW was always designed to be a solo/small group thing. Why do you believe otherwise?

Funny thing about pack leader the extra time in form from heavy attack used to stack making it so a group of 10 pack leaders could gain 20 sec per werewolf heavy attack.