The state of tanking - class recommendation

tsarkaschey

Good day,

As far as I am concerned, DK has always been a top choice for tanking. I am leveling mine as well, though, I've heard some good things about warden being able to handle tanking role pretty effectively. Therefore, I would like to ask how is Warden when compared to the DK in terms of PVE tanking?

I believe some easier, non - trial content can be finished with multiple combinations of class-role, but how is Warden's tanking in the very endgame? Does it have its place, or should it be forgotten in the PVE at all?

Thank you all for opinions.

Maura_Neysa

The Warden has better sustain.
The Warden provides defensive group utility

The DK can take more damage, particularly the single heavy hit types.
The DK provides offensive group utility

Those are the difference between them and why DK still holds the top spot.

tsarkaschey

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

The Warden has better sustain.
The Warden provides defensive group utility

The DK can take more damage, particularly the single heavy hit types.
The DK provides offensive group utility

Those are the difference between them and why DK still holds the top spot.

Am I going to be declined often as a Warden tank? I mean, is this difference between #1 and #2 class for tanking big enough to make it somewhat game-changing at some certain point of game?

Is there anything that DK can, and warden cannot tank, considering the equal skill level of the player?

Liofa

I play both in all content. Here is the difference.

DK gives offensive (Engulfing Flames) group buff while Warden gives defensive (Frost Cloak) one.

They can both complete every content with the same effectiveness. Sometimes one is superior to other in specific fights though. If you want the best score, you want to push damage so DK is chosen by most groups. That's all.

BejaProphet

Its important to not miss what Liofa said. DK's dps boosting advantage boils down to one ability, engulfing flames. I do not think that will last.

I have no way of knowing, but I'm going to go ahead and make a prediction. That advantage WILL NOT last. ZOS is going to fix that. Now I don't know how they will do it. But they will. Within 9-12months I'm predicting ZOS will change that dynamic by either fixing mag DK's to be viable (and therefore they will be the source of engulfing flames rather than the tank) or they will alter the ability. When that happens, you are going to either slowly or quickly see Wardens overtake the role of premier MT class in trials. I'm not predicting a DK extinction, but once Engulfing Flame no longer guarantees the spot its going to cause a shift.

Worth considering before you make your choice. On the bright side, when that happens we are going to get proof that the whole, "DK's are unfair because their sustain is too big of advantage" story is really a bunch of bull.

Vajrak

What each brings to the party:

Dragonknight
Engulfing Flame --- 7% bonus to all flame damage
Choking Talons --- snare+minor maim
Unrelenting Grip --- for grouping up mobs near the tank
Cauterize --- rarely used, but supplemental healing
Obsidian Shield/morphs --- damage mitigation (self and party) and stam recovery
Cinder storm --- more supplemental healing
Igneous Weapons --- potential to open up a bar slot for more utility or dps skills on the DPSers, ensuring Major buff uptime
Combustion passive for management with fire/poison damage
very high class passives for damage mitigation

Warden
Ice Fortress --- Major Ward/Resolve for self and party, so damage mitigation, but not quite as strong as that offered by Obsidian Shield
Gripping Shard --- spammable DoT/Snare based on max hp; pretty strong potential to it since tanks have high hp, and it's rather long duration DoT
Arctic Blast --- huge self heal (22%, 12% immediate, 10% HoT) plus chilled chance from frost damage (which applies minor maim)
An actual dedicated healing tree in Green Balance, but one skill in particular that offers a HUGE resource management/party mitigation element: Lotus Blossom --- light/heavy attacks heal, 20s duration, and then the Nature's Gift and Maturation passive that go with it --- restores 250 mag or stam (lowest pool) when healing with a green balance ability (which lotus blossom is), and raises max hp 10% by granting minor toughness when healed by a green balance ability

DK's are wanted mostly because people are still most comfortable with them -- they do offer a lot of support skills and self support; that's what the whole class is designed around. Warden however offers a lot of supplemental healing to make up for it's lack of party wide shields, a lot of nearly cost free resource restore, and a lot of AoE debuffing via Chilled having a 200% chance to proc. Warden may need a little more healing than DK does overall, lacking class shields (easily matched by using Bone Shield, or sets that apply shields) but overall has better resource restoration possible.

If you want to see a shift, reducing the bonus from Engulfing Flame, even down to just 5%, would make Warden a bit more desirable, as it eases the burden on the healers slightly and gives a little more wiggle room for mechanics with higher overall hp to everyone.

Also, while I recognize this is a Tanking thread, Lotus Blossom is something more Warden DPS need to be aware of --- because the skill alone allows them to keep their resources up with proper rotations very easily.

The only other class I can personally speak on would be Templar tanking, which offers a different kit than either one, more focused around AoE fortress tanking with Purifying Light, Ritual of Retribution/Cleansing Ritual, and formerly Hasty Prayer, though the change to it have nerfed the skill to near useless now.

Maura_Neysa

tsarkaschey wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

The Warden has better sustain.
The Warden provides defensive group utility

The DK can take more damage, particularly the single heavy hit types.
The DK provides offensive group utility

Those are the difference between them and why DK still holds the top spot.

Am I going to be declined often as a Warden tank? I mean, is this difference between #1 and #2 class for tanking big enough to make it somewhat game-changing at some certain point of game?

Is there anything that DK can, and warden cannot tank, considering the equal skill level of the player?

@tsarkaschey in a group looking to leader board runs, yes some. In the vast majority of the game, no. I personally have never been turn down or booted. I have only experance this when the group/guild has a well established DK tank as an option also. I do personally have a reputation though too, people know I can tank.

Maura_Neysa

Vajrak wrote: »

What each brings to the party:

Warden
Ice Fortress --- Major Ward/Resolve for self and party, so damage mitigation, but not quite as strong as that offered by Obsidian Shield

Resistances are worth far more than a Damage Shield. Now Stamblaes do already give themselves the resistance buffs

Lotus Blossom --- light/heavy attacks heal, 20s duration, and then the Nature's Gift and Maturation passive that go with it --- restores 250 mag or stam (lowest pool) when healing with a green balance ability (which lotus blossom is), and raises max hp 10% by granting minor toughness when healed by a green balance ability

That is so not the skill to use for your Nature’s Gift procs. First you won’t be LA or HA all that much. Second even if you do you can’t maintain it once a second. Leeching can proc it once a second, or just go fir the healing with Budding. Personally I go with Leeching.

Asardes

Make a Templar or NB tank just to appreciate how good Warden & DK are later, when you give up and make those as well

Sparr0w

Asardes wrote: »

Make a Templar or NB tank just to appreciate how good Warden & DK are later, when you give up and make those as well

NB Tanks are awesome tho

tsarkaschey

Thank you all.

I am not pushing for leaderboard scores nor will I in the foreseeable future. I just don't want to be banned from groups just because of the certain class choice or be incapable of doing some certain content just because I don't have required class-specific utilities. Based on the feedback, though, it seems that warden is a solid choice for tanking. I've created a topic just to resolve my doubts from reading other threads, where it was quite a common opinion that warden is really lacking important utilities to be considered a truly viable tank.

Ir0nB34r

tsarkaschey wrote: »

Thank you all.

I am not pushing for leaderboard scores nor will I in the foreseeable future. I just don't want to be banned from groups just because of the certain class choice or be incapable of doing some certain content just because I don't have required class-specific utilities. Based on the feedback, though, it seems that warden is a solid choice for tanking. I've created a topic just to resolve my doubts from reading other threads, where it was quite a common opinion that warden is really lacking important utilities to be considered a truly viable tank.

I tanked as a sorcerer for a long time. During that time I did all kinds of end game vet content. As someone mentioned earlier there are some fights where you might have difficulty. As long as you are doing your job no one will complain. Only exception is if the group is going for a leader board spot they will try to min/max as best as they can. But thats not a concern for you, as you said. So you will be able to find groups well enough. But some may give you grief.

xI_The_Owl_Ix

Honestly both are fine.
But if you want to make sure that you are always included in trials and such, just make an argonian dragonknight.

ak_pvp

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

The Warden has better sustain.
The Warden provides defensive group utility

The DK can take more damage, particularly the single heavy hit types.
The DK provides offensive group utility

Those are the difference between them and why DK still holds the top spot.

The DK has the better sustain, having both mag and stam, and the stam is a little better on a DK tank than a warden one since warden requires healing every second.

The warden has passive minor protection, which is actually better than both DKs tanky passives, one being block only and one being spell only. Warden has maim spikes to work like talons too. Warden's also have a phys and spell resist passive on top.

Maura_Neysa

ak_pvp wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

The Warden has better sustain.
The Warden provides defensive group utility

The DK can take more damage, particularly the single heavy hit types.
The DK provides offensive group utility

Those are the difference between them and why DK still holds the top spot.

The DK has the better sustain, having both mag and stam, and the stam is a little better on a DK tank than a warden one since warden requires healing every second.

The warden has passive minor protection, which is actually better than both DKs tanky passives, one being block only and one being spell only. Warden has maim spikes to work like talons too. Warden's also have a phys and spell resist passive on top.

DK do not have the better sustain. If you want to count only Stam then yes Warden does require healing once a second and every one of them going stam. Once a second is easy, but I run lower on mag most of the time. Of course the counter is DK need to Igneous Shield ever 6 seconds or sooner vs 2 buffs I just need to keep up.
If you want to count all resources than the Warden’s self healing so far eclipses the DK that it’s laughable.

Minor Protection is nice because it it always applies, however it’s 8% and Iron Skin is 10% so Iron Skin is still better. At least if you can manage your stamina/blocking.
Resistances are 500 of each IF you have Winter skill slotted. Polar, Fortress, Gate, Gripping that’s 2000 of each resistance or 4k total. How many Warden tanks actually run all four of those besides me? (Note: that’s only 1k on each bar) DKs is is just over 3k. However I wasn’t really counting resistances because it’s so easy to cap out.

tsarkaschey

I was checking popular tanking builds and one skill in particular drew my attention, that is Magma Shell. Is it more like a panic button when things go bad, or is it a necessity for some OHKO mechanics? I've read that it's pretty much impossible to survive some heavy hits on warden and thus dk.

Also, I've heard that warden works perfectly as off-tank. What is the main purpose of it's job then? I mean, why to take off-tank rather than two main tanks, who will be able to simply survive more?

I know these are kind of stupid questions, sorry for that.

Asardes

Magma Shell is good for some fights but you can do without once you learn the mechanics. As alternative you can use Permafrost on Warden (Major Protection), or Replenishing Barrier on any class. The latter also gives you +10% Magicka Recovery trough passive if slotted. On Warden it actually makes sense to stack magicka recovery because you can spam seeds on your group and recover stamina trough passive.

jypcy

IMO offtank is more of name such as DPS1 or DPS2 vs a different role. It does depend on the situation, but there are enough where the OT could run the exact same build as the MT and nobody would bat an eye. For other situations, the OT serves as more of a buff bot and the MT focuses more on survivability. Wardens are good in this regard because they do have a good buff toolkit and can also achieve really high ultimate regen, meaning more war horns for the group over the course of a fight. If your MT struggles to survive, then sure, just build to be a backup MT in case she goes down, but ideally the MT won’t struggle with staying alive so you can build more for buffing the group or even dealing damage yourself instead of needing to be the ultimate bastion of survivability. But again, this depends on the situation.

Also, as Asardes said, Magma Shell isn’t a necessity, although it is arguably the best survival ult in the game. But not even all dks run it, so certainly you’re not at an inherent disadvantage by choosing a warden instead.

ak_pvp

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

The Warden has better sustain.
The Warden provides defensive group utility

The DK can take more damage, particularly the single heavy hit types.
The DK provides offensive group utility

Those are the difference between them and why DK still holds the top spot.

The DK has the better sustain, having both mag and stam, and the stam is a little better on a DK tank than a warden one since warden requires healing every second.

The warden has passive minor protection, which is actually better than both DKs tanky passives, one being block only and one being spell only. Warden has maim spikes to work like talons too. Warden's also have a phys and spell resist passive on top.

DK do not have the better sustain. If you want to count only Stam then yes Warden does require healing once a second and every one of them going stam. Once a second is easy, but I run lower on mag most of the time. Of course the counter is DK need to Igneous Shield ever 6 seconds or sooner vs 2 buffs I just need to keep up.
If you want to count all resources than the Warden’s self healing so far eclipses the DK that it’s laughable.

Minor Protection is nice because it it always applies, however it’s 8% and Iron Skin is 10% so Iron Skin is still better. At least if you can manage your stamina/blocking.
Resistances are 500 of each IF you have Winter skill slotted. Polar, Fortress, Gate, Gripping that’s 2000 of each resistance or 4k total. How many Warden tanks actually run all four of those besides me? (Note: that’s only 1k on each bar) DKs is is just over 3k. However I wasn’t really counting resistances because it’s so easy to cap out.

Wardens selfheals are strong yeah. But DK absolutely has the better sustain, especially now. Battle roar with bloodspawn is something like 370 regen equivalent, then helping hands every 6s~ is another 330, and you can get practically around 150 mag regen too if you are the designated engulfing user. So 520 mag 700 stam. 1220 combined.

For warden the natures gift is around 500 (generally stam) if you can heal every sec, and netch is 335 stam, so 835 combined. Even factoring 12% regen from having netch slotted, DK comes out above with better overall regen and an easier time, since the stam from helping hands is on demand on a useful ability.

Also, iron skin is 10% more blocked, it amps the 50% block mitgation to 55%. Minor protection is 8% less damage taken flat, so much better, always up, works on all damage. True that resistances are easier to cap out, but wardens have it better for raw tonking. Even shimmering has its uses.

Asardes

DKs, just as any class, can also get Minor Protection in 2 ways. First, they can periodically cast Ring of Preservation - this is useful when stacking with some team mates since it also gives them Minor Protection and some stamina recovery - second, by slotting Temporal Guard, which only gives the buff to yourself, but also potentially provides 5K shield trough Concentrated Barrier passive if the fight allows you to drop block for longer periods. So the buff is far from unique to Wardens. Another advantage of DK over Warden is healing. First, they have Green Dragon Blood that is a burst heal, which is stronger than Polar Wind. Secondly, this skill also provides 20% healing received, 8% from Minor Vitality, 12% from Burning Heart passive. Throw some Major Vitality & Lingering Health potions into the mix and time it right, and it means that DKs can survive very strong hits from bosses easier than wardens, because they can stack a whooping 50% healing received (it can go past 70% with Argonian racial passives, Quick Recovery CP and some set bonuses), which means that they can get back to full health right away after a devastating hit. So the DKs still make the best main tanks.

On the other hand Wardens can provide group buffs: Major Resolve & Ward (Expansive Frost Cloak), Minor Lifesteal (Leeching Vines) and Minor Toughness (Maturation Passive) albeit this is also given by Warhorn - as well as an extra synergy for the group (Harvest); the latter can be used by the other tank to bring Line Breaker debuff (Alkosh) up time to almost 100%, considering there are only 2 other usable synergies for the tank: Orbs/Shards and Conduit - if you have a Sorcerer in group. Also Wardens have superior Ultimate generation (Shimmering Shield), and their sustain depends on healing the group - Budding Seeds/Leeching Vines that activate Nature's Gift passive. Also the other way to sustain, Psijic: Deep Thoughts is only usable when not under constant attack. So arguably Wardens are better as off tanks.

Maura_Neysa

ak_pvp wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

The Warden has better sustain.
The Warden provides defensive group utility

The DK can take more damage, particularly the single heavy hit types.
The DK provides offensive group utility

Those are the difference between them and why DK still holds the top spot.

The DK has the better sustain, having both mag and stam, and the stam is a little better on a DK tank than a warden one since warden requires healing every second.

The warden has passive minor protection, which is actually better than both DKs tanky passives, one being block only and one being spell only. Warden has maim spikes to work like talons too. Warden's also have a phys and spell resist passive on top.

DK do not have the better sustain. If you want to count only Stam then yes Warden does require healing once a second and every one of them going stam. Once a second is easy, but I run lower on mag most of the time. Of course the counter is DK need to Igneous Shield ever 6 seconds or sooner vs 2 buffs I just need to keep up.
If you want to count all resources than the Warden’s self healing so far eclipses the DK that it’s laughable.

Minor Protection is nice because it it always applies, however it’s 8% and Iron Skin is 10% so Iron Skin is still better. At least if you can manage your stamina/blocking.
Resistances are 500 of each IF you have Winter skill slotted. Polar, Fortress, Gate, Gripping that’s 2000 of each resistance or 4k total. How many Warden tanks actually run all four of those besides me? (Note: that’s only 1k on each bar) DKs is is just over 3k. However I wasn’t really counting resistances because it’s so easy to cap out.

Wardens selfheals are strong yeah. But DK absolutely has the better sustain, especially now. Battle roar with bloodspawn is something like 370 regen equivalent, then helping hands every 6s~ is another 330, and you can get practically around 150 mag regen too if you are the designated engulfing user. So 520 mag 700 stam. 1220 combined.

For warden the natures gift is around 500 (generally stam) if you can heal every sec, and netch is 335 stam, so 835 combined. Even factoring 12% regen from having netch slotted, DK comes out above with better overall regen and an easier time, since the stam from helping hands is on demand on a useful ability.

Also, iron skin is 10% more blocked, it amps the 50% block mitgation to 55%. Minor protection is 8% less damage taken flat, so much better, always up, works on all damage. True that resistances are easier to cap out, but wardens have it better for raw tonking. Even shimmering has its uses.

@ak_pvp _pvp Okay, here we go down this rabbit hole again...
Okay, will use 55 second War Horns

DK
46*250=11500. 11500/55 seconds = 209 resources per second
990 stam per Igneous, cast Igneous every 6 seconds for ulti = 165
165+209 = 374 stamina per second
(want to count the mag/heal from Battler Roar? 209 mag+ 209 heal + 374 stam = 792 resources/sec total)

Warden
Savage Beast 4 Ulti every 8 seconds (1Ulti/2 sec)
Netch 4029 stamina over 27 seconds = 149 per second
Nature's Gift 250 per second
Forest every 20 seconds (same Ulti gen estimation as War Horn) 26931 heal per 20 seconds = 1346 heals/sec
250+149 = 399 stamia per second
(Want to count all resource gen? 1346 heal/sec+399stam/sec = 1745 resources/sec)

Now maybe with a pision and proc'ing stamina DK might actually out do Warden. Also yes the Forest added in is pure selfishness, but then sustain is key in the Off-Tank not the main tank. Its Hiath, Off Tank Ozara/Serpant, vAS+2, etc

tsarkaschey wrote: »

I was checking popular tanking builds and one skill in particular drew my attention, that is Magma Shell. Is it more like a panic button when things go bad, or is it a necessity for some OHKO mechanics? I've read that it's pretty much impossible to survive some heavy hits on warden and thus dk.

Also, I've heard that warden works perfectly as off-tank. What is the main purpose of it's job then? I mean, why to take off-tank rather than two main tanks, who will be able to simply survive more?

I know these are kind of stupid questions, sorry for that.

@tsarkaschey Magma Shell isnt particularly good because its too exspensive. Shield Wall is cheaper Oh-S ulti. Warden Forest is a very nice Oh-S ulti.

Off-Tanks are only situational but they are someone who can perform the role of tank without any help from the team so that they can stay on priority. They are often not purely tank becsause they aren't need for the whole run. MoL Twins, Ozara Troll/Fang/Priest, The Serpant Lamia/Mantakora, vAS+2, CR are places where you need two full tanks. But like MoL thats only one boss, SO thats only 2 bosses, so the Off-Tank doesn't add much to the group in the other fights. Wardens add groups healing, group damage reduction, and an extra synergy all while in there Main Tank setup. DK needs to alter skills to add group utility above what a DK Main tank would.

ak_pvp

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

The Warden has better sustain.
The Warden provides defensive group utility

The DK can take more damage, particularly the single heavy hit types.
The DK provides offensive group utility

Those are the difference between them and why DK still holds the top spot.

The DK has the better sustain, having both mag and stam, and the stam is a little better on a DK tank than a warden one since warden requires healing every second.

The warden has passive minor protection, which is actually better than both DKs tanky passives, one being block only and one being spell only. Warden has maim spikes to work like talons too. Warden's also have a phys and spell resist passive on top.

DK do not have the better sustain. If you want to count only Stam then yes Warden does require healing once a second and every one of them going stam. Once a second is easy, but I run lower on mag most of the time. Of course the counter is DK need to Igneous Shield ever 6 seconds or sooner vs 2 buffs I just need to keep up.
If you want to count all resources than the Warden’s self healing so far eclipses the DK that it’s laughable.

Minor Protection is nice because it it always applies, however it’s 8% and Iron Skin is 10% so Iron Skin is still better. At least if you can manage your stamina/blocking.
Resistances are 500 of each IF you have Winter skill slotted. Polar, Fortress, Gate, Gripping that’s 2000 of each resistance or 4k total. How many Warden tanks actually run all four of those besides me? (Note: that’s only 1k on each bar) DKs is is just over 3k. However I wasn’t really counting resistances because it’s so easy to cap out.

Wardens selfheals are strong yeah. But DK absolutely has the better sustain, especially now. Battle roar with bloodspawn is something like 370 regen equivalent, then helping hands every 6s~ is another 330, and you can get practically around 150 mag regen too if you are the designated engulfing user. So 520 mag 700 stam. 1220 combined.

For warden the natures gift is around 500 (generally stam) if you can heal every sec, and netch is 335 stam, so 835 combined. Even factoring 12% regen from having netch slotted, DK comes out above with better overall regen and an easier time, since the stam from helping hands is on demand on a useful ability.

Also, iron skin is 10% more blocked, it amps the 50% block mitgation to 55%. Minor protection is 8% less damage taken flat, so much better, always up, works on all damage. True that resistances are easier to cap out, but wardens have it better for raw tonking. Even shimmering has its uses.

@ak_pvp _pvp Okay, here we go down this rabbit hole again...
Okay, will use 55 second War Horns

DK
46*250=11500. 11500/55 seconds = 209 resources per second
990 stam per Igneous, cast Igneous every 6 seconds for ulti = 165
165+209 = 374 stamina per second
(want to count the mag/heal from Battler Roar? 209 mag+ 209 heal + 374 stam = 792 resources/sec total)

Warden
Savage Beast 4 Ulti every 8 seconds (1Ulti/2 sec)
Netch 4029 stamina over 27 seconds = 149 per second
Nature's Gift 250 per second
Forest every 20 seconds (same Ulti gen estimation as War Horn) 26931 heal per 20 seconds = 1346 heals/sec
250+149 = 399 stamia per second
(Want to count all resource gen? 1346 heal/sec+399stam/sec = 1745 resources/sec)

Now maybe with a pision and proc'ing stamina DK might actually out do Warden. Also yes the Forest added in is pure selfishness, but then sustain is key in the Off-Tank not the main tank. Its Hiath, Off Tank Ozara/Serpant, vAS+2, etc

Counting heal is pointless, in most groups you'll be topped off anyway, its not really a resource. Maybe some semi self sufficient offtanks might factor it, yes, warden has better over time healing. However its not really a resource management point for the majority of content.

Warhorns are more than every 55s. Generally every 40s with good optimization. 11500/40 (x 2 for its effective mag and stam regen) is 575. My initial post was an underestimation based on DPS numbers.

Then igneous every 6s 990/6 x 2 for an effective regen of 330. So, even more than I anticipated for DK, and considerably more than a warden. 575 mag regen, and 905 stam regen. Even more mag regen if you count mag combustion for engulfing, its around 100 effective regen in practice, 200 at max. Not counting the stam combustion, as realistically it won't proc. DK comes out way on top for mag/stam regen values, though some skills are costly.

Warden is 4029/24 x 2 for 335 effective stam regen with netch (Ik its 27s, but the return is lower, and assuming its casted on CD.) Then 250 per second with NG, so an effective regen of 500 mag or stam. That is a total, as I said, of 835 effective regen.

Maura_Neysa

ak_pvp wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

The Warden has better sustain.
The Warden provides defensive group utility

The DK can take more damage, particularly the single heavy hit types.
The DK provides offensive group utility

Those are the difference between them and why DK still holds the top spot.

The DK has the better sustain, having both mag and stam, and the stam is a little better on a DK tank than a warden one since warden requires healing every second.

The warden has passive minor protection, which is actually better than both DKs tanky passives, one being block only and one being spell only. Warden has maim spikes to work like talons too. Warden's also have a phys and spell resist passive on top.

DK do not have the better sustain. If you want to count only Stam then yes Warden does require healing once a second and every one of them going stam. Once a second is easy, but I run lower on mag most of the time. Of course the counter is DK need to Igneous Shield ever 6 seconds or sooner vs 2 buffs I just need to keep up.
If you want to count all resources than the Warden’s self healing so far eclipses the DK that it’s laughable.

Minor Protection is nice because it it always applies, however it’s 8% and Iron Skin is 10% so Iron Skin is still better. At least if you can manage your stamina/blocking.
Resistances are 500 of each IF you have Winter skill slotted. Polar, Fortress, Gate, Gripping that’s 2000 of each resistance or 4k total. How many Warden tanks actually run all four of those besides me? (Note: that’s only 1k on each bar) DKs is is just over 3k. However I wasn’t really counting resistances because it’s so easy to cap out.

Wardens selfheals are strong yeah. But DK absolutely has the better sustain, especially now. Battle roar with bloodspawn is something like 370 regen equivalent, then helping hands every 6s~ is another 330, and you can get practically around 150 mag regen too if you are the designated engulfing user. So 520 mag 700 stam. 1220 combined.

For warden the natures gift is around 500 (generally stam) if you can heal every sec, and netch is 335 stam, so 835 combined. Even factoring 12% regen from having netch slotted, DK comes out above with better overall regen and an easier time, since the stam from helping hands is on demand on a useful ability.

Also, iron skin is 10% more blocked, it amps the 50% block mitgation to 55%. Minor protection is 8% less damage taken flat, so much better, always up, works on all damage. True that resistances are easier to cap out, but wardens have it better for raw tonking. Even shimmering has its uses.

@ak_pvp _pvp Okay, here we go down this rabbit hole again...
Okay, will use 55 second War Horns

DK
46*250=11500. 11500/55 seconds = 209 resources per second
990 stam per Igneous, cast Igneous every 6 seconds for ulti = 165
165+209 = 374 stamina per second
(want to count the mag/heal from Battler Roar? 209 mag+ 209 heal + 374 stam = 792 resources/sec total)

Warden
Savage Beast 4 Ulti every 8 seconds (1Ulti/2 sec)
Netch 4029 stamina over 27 seconds = 149 per second
Nature's Gift 250 per second
Forest every 20 seconds (same Ulti gen estimation as War Horn) 26931 heal per 20 seconds = 1346 heals/sec
250+149 = 399 stamia per second
(Want to count all resource gen? 1346 heal/sec+399stam/sec = 1745 resources/sec)

Now maybe with a pision and proc'ing stamina DK might actually out do Warden. Also yes the Forest added in is pure selfishness, but then sustain is key in the Off-Tank not the main tank. Its Hiath, Off Tank Ozara/Serpant, vAS+2, etc

Counting heal is pointless, in most groups you'll be topped off anyway, its not really a resource. Maybe some semi self sufficient offtanks might factor it, yes, warden has better over time healing. However its not really a resource management point for the majority of content.

Warhorns are more than every 55s. Generally every 40s with good optimization. 11500/40 (x 2 for its effective mag and stam regen) is 575. My initial post was an underestimation based on DPS numbers.

Then igneous every 6s 990/6 x 2 for an effective regen of 330. So, even more than I anticipated for DK, and considerably more than a warden. 575 mag regen, and 905 stam regen. Even more mag regen if you count mag combustion for engulfing, its around 100 effective regen in practice, 200 at max. Not counting the stam combustion, as realistically it won't proc. DK comes out way on top for mag/stam regen values, though some skills are costly.

Warden is 4029/24 x 2 for 335 effective stam regen with netch (Ik its 27s, but the return is lower, and assuming its casted on CD.) Then 250 per second with NG, so an effective regen of 500 mag or stam. That is a total, as I said, of 835 effective regen.

The only way you are getting War Horn faster then 55sec is an Ulti gen build. Not Ebon and Alkosh.
Passive 3ulti every 6 seconds
Minor Heriom 1 Ulti every 1.5 second (4ulti/6sec)
7ulti/6sec=1.16666
250/1.16666=214 seconds
Obviously I can't calculate the Ulti generated from attacks but 214 is the base. I've also yet to see a group that can keep 100% uptime of the bonus stats with less than 3 War Horns which would be possible with just 2 War Horns and 55sec recast. So personally I think 55 is generous. 70-80 sec is more accurate IMO

See the difference is: you "more like," me math on the screen.
All my numbers for both classes are in per seconds. If you want to talk regen equivalent then multiply both classes by 2.
The Netch last 27 seconds. It takes it 3 seconds to start regen stamina but the Sorcery/Brutality last for 27 so my calculation was accurate. You screw yourself casting it more often then on cool down. Also it states, [x] stamina over 27 seconds so technicly if your right and I'm wrong them the regen is actually higher.
What baby runs are you on that your health is always topped off. Health is absolutely a resource and a pretty important one especially when the healer drops, or Off-Tanking which is really where resource management counts. Main Tank gets plenty of Shards and synergies from the healer. So why does health not count when the healers give everything?

This is exactly why I said rabbit hole. Even with math on the screen and easily verifiable people are too...... something.... to verify it themselves. not even sure why I bother. I'm happy with Warden in 2nd place. I abhor meta.

Lord_Eomer

Liofa wrote: »

I play both in all content. Here is the difference.

DK gives offensive (Engulfing Flames) group buff while Warden gives defensive (Frost Cloak) one.

They can both complete every content with the same effectiveness. Sometimes one is superior to other in specific fights though. If you want the best score, you want to push damage so DK is chosen by most groups. That's all.

Never saw Engulfing Flames in woeler or Alcast DK tank build.

Can someone confirm if 7% additional Fire Damage debuff applies to group players fire attacks?

@Liofa

Asardes

As long as it's healed a DK has basically infinite magicka sustain since he can hit Balance every few seconds; in turn they can convert that to stamina by hitting Fragmented/Igneous Shield - with the nerf to group shield in Morrowind and the buff to Major Mending duration from Fragmented I actually changed to the latter morph this patch, since it helps survival when paired with Green Dragon Blood. That skill also gives him the Major Ward & Resolve buffs. The Warden takes the same buffs from Frost Cloak & Morphs; it can use Balance as well instead, but it will be a group utility loss since the former skill is also an AoE buff. More so DKs have no class magicka recovery multiplier, so they don't benefit much from stacking into that stat, but Wardens do have 12% Flourish passive they get by slotting Bull Netch on front bar. So it's more advantageous for Wardens to stack into that and self sustain magicka.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

I play both in all content. Here is the difference.

DK gives offensive (Engulfing Flames) group buff while Warden gives defensive (Frost Cloak) one.

They can both complete every content with the same effectiveness. Sometimes one is superior to other in specific fights though. If you want the best score, you want to push damage so DK is chosen by most groups. That's all.

Never saw Engulfing Flames in woeler or Alcast DK tank build.

Can someone confirm if 7% additional Fire Damage debuff applies to group players fire attacks?

@Liofa

Is this a joke? Everyone knows engulfing flames works for everyone.

Lord_Eomer

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

I play both in all content. Here is the difference.

DK gives offensive (Engulfing Flames) group buff while Warden gives defensive (Frost Cloak) one.

They can both complete every content with the same effectiveness. Sometimes one is superior to other in specific fights though. If you want the best score, you want to push damage so DK is chosen by most groups. That's all.

Never saw Engulfing Flames in woeler or Alcast DK tank build.

Can someone confirm if 7% additional Fire Damage debuff applies to group players fire attacks?

@Liofa

Is this a joke? Everyone knows engulfing flames works for everyone.

I asked a very simple question and as usual your reply is very rude.

I wish people like you never contribute anything to Forum community.

Asardes

Engulfing Flames on tank are not that important nowadays since in Summerset patch Magicka DK DDs are good and can pull similar DPS to stamina. I know people from my guild that were doing DPS in the same bracket as top stamina DD even in previous patches on that class.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

I play both in all content. Here is the difference.

DK gives offensive (Engulfing Flames) group buff while Warden gives defensive (Frost Cloak) one.

They can both complete every content with the same effectiveness. Sometimes one is superior to other in specific fights though. If you want the best score, you want to push damage so DK is chosen by most groups. That's all.

Never saw Engulfing Flames in woeler or Alcast DK tank build.

Can someone confirm if 7% additional Fire Damage debuff applies to group players fire attacks?

@Liofa

Is this a joke? Everyone knows engulfing flames works for everyone.

I asked a very simple question and as usual your reply is very rude.

I wish people like you never contribute anything to Forum community.

Wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which one fills up first. My point is that someone that has ~2500 comments and, lol, started ~150 threads ought to know something so basic. Not to mention you are questioning one of the top tanks around. If I come off as rude, you come off as ignorant.

Liofa

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

I play both in all content. Here is the difference.

DK gives offensive (Engulfing Flames) group buff while Warden gives defensive (Frost Cloak) one.

They can both complete every content with the same effectiveness. Sometimes one is superior to other in specific fights though. If you want the best score, you want to push damage so DK is chosen by most groups. That's all.

Never saw Engulfing Flames in woeler or Alcast DK tank build.

Can someone confirm if 7% additional Fire Damage debuff applies to group players fire attacks?

@Liofa

It does and becomes 10% at max level.

The reason you are not aware of this info is because you didn't watch/read other builds. Even though I am a well known tank theorycrafter, I still watch every single tank build video of all classes to see if there is something new to learn. Engulfing Flames is meta since Morrowind because mDK DPS nerfed to the ground and not viable in competitve runs. Even before Morrowind, tanks used Engulfing Flames when there were no mDKs in the group. I highly suggest looking into more guides/channels to get more knowledge about the game in general. It helps a lot while theorycrafting new builds for every class.

Lord_Eomer

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

I play both in all content. Here is the difference.

DK gives offensive (Engulfing Flames) group buff while Warden gives defensive (Frost Cloak) one.

They can both complete every content with the same effectiveness. Sometimes one is superior to other in specific fights though. If you want the best score, you want to push damage so DK is chosen by most groups. That's all.

Never saw Engulfing Flames in woeler or Alcast DK tank build.

Can someone confirm if 7% additional Fire Damage debuff applies to group players fire attacks?

@Liofa

Is this a joke? Everyone knows engulfing flames works for everyone.

I asked a very simple question and as usual your reply is very rude.

I wish people like you never contribute anything to Forum community.

Wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which one fills up first. My point is that someone that has ~2500 comments and, lol, started ~150 threads ought to know something so basic. Not to mention you are questioning one of the top tanks around. If I come off as rude, you come off as ignorant.

Woeler is another top tank in ESO,

he never mind answering question on his discord channel. I did not notice this group buff since Morrowind due to having none DK dps (did not look into this skill) but I am surprise how you are defending your rudeness.

You can ask question to players and thats why we have ESO Forum.