PC NA AD Vivec

Slowbromance

We got Bleaker's tho, right?

Rin_Senya

I'm just gonna leave it here.
(no DC guilds online btw. Meanwhile 40 AD are at Bleakers, including organized raid guild).




but hey let's make more QQ posts on forum about poor AD being always outnumbered, Low Pop Bonuses, traitors and cheaters.

Slowbromance

Hate to say it, but you're right @Rin_Senya. I'm beyond disappointed and frustrated right now. We worked our asses off all day for this.

I'm being facetious in my post. I was not part of nor support what has happened there TWICE now in this campaign on AD, and I can no longer blame anything on the shortcomings of this campaign for AD. We throw the campaign for AP, and that's it.

zyk

I agree Bleaker's is rarely a good idea for AD, but certain EP guilds have frequently done the same @ Nikel and Brindle (and alessia and fare) over the years while EP loses keeps. Farming AD has often taken precedence over EP home keeps...

Slowbromance

That is usually just a certain guild though. The numbers at Bleaker's tonight were uncalled for. I had to log 'cause I'm bummed as hell.

zyk

Slowbromance wrote: »

That is usually just a certain guild though. The numbers at Bleaker's tonight were uncalled for. I had to log 'cause I'm bummed as hell.

Yeah... I've been there.. I mean, farming at Bleaker's but also discouraged because of the farming at Bleaker's.. /facepalm

But *usually*, I was one of the 1-5 players @ Nikel/Roe/Alessia/Fare saying:

/zone 10 DC/EP sieging FD Nikel/Roe/Alessia/Fare
/zone 20 DC/EP sieging FD Nikel/Roe/Alessia/Fare
/zone Nikel/Roe/Alessia/Fare Flagged
/zone 40-60 DC/EP @ Roe/Alessia/Fare, cy overrun, siege starting on fd, still time to get here...

etc

Rin_Senya

I'll direct you to @Agrippa_Invisus post a few days ago:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5240368/#Comment_5240368

He said everything right. The fact that EP has already taken over 1000 pt lead is mostly AD's own fault.

Slowbromance

@zyk Yah, we tried to run in and back cap Roe just before I logged out tonight. There was a fight for a bit, but we ultimately were overpowered.

Slowbromance

@Rin_Senya I did see his post and agree. AD is responsible in every way. Granted, not every AD would stand behind keeping half the faction at an outpost opposite our territory. I do not, for one.

Just sucks to see it happening again after we put in work today to narrow the gap a bit.

Slowbromance

Those of us that fight for campaign points won't give up though. We never do.

JaZ2091

You can blame the Large guilds that double dip in Factions.

Agrippa_Invisus

zyk wrote: »

I agree Bleaker's is rarely a good idea for AD, but certain EP guilds have frequently done the same @ Nikel and Brindle (and alessia and fare) over the years while EP loses keeps. Farming AD has often taken precedence over EP home keeps...

The key difference when EP grabs Nikel and when AD grabs Bleakers is that half the EP faction doesn't bloodport over there to farm. Instead we buckle down and get ready for the push coming from one of the frustrated factions.

Yeah, we may lose some ground, but we don't collapse. Also, said groups will often times hit even deeper into enemy territory to take pressure off or bloodport back home to retake keeps.

I can attest to what EP was like in zone chat as soon as Bleakers flipped yellow. EP called for Aleswell to be abandoned (it was red at the time) and get back to the home keeps to defend them and not have most of our players cut off from the rest. And that's exactly what happened. While one guild farmed bleaks, the rest of AD pushed BRK and even with three breaches got wiped because EP responded appropriately.

We got a nice healthy tick and pushed the AD all the way back to Faregyl while they flipped Aleswell and continued to farm. After all that AP earned there were even comments in zone about 'wow, I'm glad we came back, that was really the right thing to do'.

It helps that EP has several experienced players that all echo each other in /zone, have respect for each other, and the pugs listen. One of many reasons I really have no interest in playing in the other two factions.

barshemm

I think AD is far behind because they have no day time presence and both EP and DC will push the few AD there are back to their gates.

EP ends up with the best groups usually and will go grab claw and ales. DC will then grab roe and brindle instead of pushing for their own keeps back. With no pressure on the EP/DC front line EP will get Alessia and often start pushing AD tri keeps.

Rumor has it the entire Short map is yellow at this time but I have not actually gone and looked. Around 10am eastern the DC group of 5-12 usually starts in IC until they go up top at 2pm to pvdoor in a 30+ man raid.

Jadokis

Rin_Senya wrote: »

I'll direct you to @Agrippa_Invisus post a few days ago:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5240368/#Comment_5240368

He said everything right. The fact that EP has already taken over 1000 pt lead is mostly AD's own fault.

AD is not a hivemind zerg like EP It is hard for us to agree on where we will have fun playing on the map.

Also I would attribute any lead EP has to many DC and AD players starting to refuse to play during a 12 hour period where EP is running around with twice the numbers and bringing 40+ to every resource. It's easy to all of a sudden start winning campaigns when scroll values are changed and you have all 6 scrolls every night, every week unchallenged.

Luthid

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

I can attest to what EP was like in zone chat as soon as Bleakers flipped yellow. EP called for Aleswell to be abandoned (it was red at the time) and get back to the home keeps to defend them and not have most of our players cut off from the rest. And that's exactly what happened. While one guild farmed bleaks, the rest of AD pushed BRK and even with three breaches got wiped because EP responded appropriately.

Very similar in DC zone. It was said that “if AD is willing to trade the entire map for Bleakers, let’s let ‘em”, and we were aligned in pushing south. We took Roe and Brindle before we even bothered to circle back for Ales.

Jadokis wrote: »

AD is not a hivemind zerg like EP It is hard for us to agree on where we will have fun playing on the map.

I think that’s the point thought, is that AD does have a hive mind lately, and focuses it on Bleakers. There are genuinely fewer than 5 AD in each of your keeps that we take when this happens. The entire rest of your (pop locked) faction is at Bleaks.

zyk

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

I agree Bleaker's is rarely a good idea for AD, but certain EP guilds have frequently done the same @ Nikel and Brindle (and alessia and fare) over the years while EP loses keeps. Farming AD has often taken precedence over EP home keeps...

The key difference when EP grabs Nikel and when AD grabs Bleakers is that half the EP faction doesn't bloodport over there to farm. Instead we buckle down and get ready for the push coming from one of the frustrated factions.

Maybe during your play sessions, but during my play sessions over the past year, I recall countless early mornings (12AM-3AM Eastern) when many prominent EP players couldn't be bothered to stop farming AD in order to prevent DC from taking their keeps and pushing emp.

Every faction has a lot of players who don't care about the map. One EP poster in this thread has played for a couple of EP guilds that are/were famous for that.

So the strong AD on at that particular time happened to have that kind of mentality, most likely. The other AD have probably stopped caring because of how bad the competitive imbalance has been over the past year and especially recently.

VaranisArano

Jadokis wrote: »

Rin_Senya wrote: »

I'll direct you to @Agrippa_Invisus post a few days ago:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5240368/#Comment_5240368

He said everything right. The fact that EP has already taken over 1000 pt lead is mostly AD's own fault.

AD is not a hivemind zerg like EP It is hard for us to agree on where we will have fun playing on the map.

Also I would attribute any lead EP has to many DC and AD players starting to refuse to play during a 12 hour period where EP is running around with twice the numbers and bringing 40+ to every resource. It's easy to all of a sudden start winning campaigns when scroll values are changed and you have all 6 scrolls every night, every week unchallenged.

If we EP were actually a hive mind zerg instead of a bunch of cats with some really good hardworking cat-herders, you don't want to know what the score difference would look like.

I won't discount the value of numbers, but I'm also not going to discount the value or the role played by competent zone generals in directing those numbers where to go in order to be effective in supporting the faction.

What you call a hivemind, I see on the EP side as a complex system of zone callouts from known competent players pointing out where fights are likely to be. Sometimes the PUGs listen, sometimes they don't. Either way, EP generally has a clue where to go -not by magic or a hive mind - because EP players who know how to play the map put that information in zone chat to guide the rest of the faction.

In other words, please don't blame your defeats on EP having a hive mind. We don't. Instead, blame it on EP's ability to marshal their numbers at the correct targets instead...because that's something you can actually work on to do better on your own faction. That's exactly what the EP who do that hard work keep telling you - they've told you that our faction reacts as well as we do thanks to consistently good zone callouts from zone generals who play the map. If the other factions can't marshal their numbers at the correct targets thanks to a lack of zone communication, well, I'm not sure what result they are expecting when facing a faction that can.

Finally, thank you EP zone generals who make consistently good callouts for the faction. You deserve more credit than you get.

Agrippa_Invisus

zyk wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

I agree Bleaker's is rarely a good idea for AD, but certain EP guilds have frequently done the same @ Nikel and Brindle (and alessia and fare) over the years while EP loses keeps. Farming AD has often taken precedence over EP home keeps...

The key difference when EP grabs Nikel and when AD grabs Bleakers is that half the EP faction doesn't bloodport over there to farm. Instead we buckle down and get ready for the push coming from one of the frustrated factions.

Maybe during your play sessions, but during my play sessions over the past year, I recall countless early mornings (12AM-3AM Eastern) when many prominent EP players couldn't be bothered to stop farming AD in order to prevent DC from taking their keeps and pushing emp.

Every faction has a lot of players who don't care about the map. One EP poster in this thread has played for a couple of EP guilds that are/were famous for that.

So the strong AD on at that particular time happened to have that kind of mentality, most likely. The other AD have probably stopped caring because of how bad the competitive imbalance has been over the past year and especially recently.

My recollection of that time of night lately is usually DC endlessly, mindlessly potatoing Chalman while Ni runs around capping whatever for AD.

Slowbromance

barshemm wrote: »

I think AD is far behind because they have no day time presence and both EP and DC will push the few AD there are back to their gates.

I would have to disagree with you on this campaign. The reason for our massive point losses in this campaign are due to the large number of AD that have sacrificed home defense to farm AP like one 16-20 man group could do at an outpost.

We cannot place blame on or point fingers at any faction but our own. We were shining brilliantly through the day yesterday, and then I watched the decline begin all because of our numbers at Bleaker's. It's clear that AD do not care about winning the campaign.

Honestly, fair enough. The rewards suck, but what is worse is having some glimmer of morale built back up to have it destroyed again. It's a tumultuous cycle, and the other factions sense our inability to coordinate and support each other at these times.

But hey, we got Bleaker's.

Minnesinger

When Ad won every campaign Ad were mindless zergers. Now that we lose we are mindless farmers. You bet whatever Ad does the same peeps says there is something fault.

Slowbromance

Minnesinger wrote: »

When Ad won every campaign Ad were mindless zergers. Now that we lose we are mindless farmers. You bet whatever Ad does the same peeps says there is something fault.

I want to make one thing clear. I am AD tried and true. I am simply voicing the frustrations I know many people in my faction are feeling after this tactic has occurred twice in this campaign costing us on the home front.

I will still continue to fight for AD and help my fellows on the home front. I just want others to know that the full AD faction does not condone some of the plays being made in this campaign.

Minnesinger

Slowbromance wrote: »

Minnesinger wrote: »

When Ad won every campaign Ad were mindless zergers. Now that we lose we are mindless farmers. You bet whatever Ad does the same peeps says there is something fault.

I want to make one thing clear. I am AD tried and true. I am simply voicing the frustrations I know many people in my faction are feeling after this tactic has occurred twice in this campaign costing us on the home front.

I will still continue to fight for AD and help my fellows on the home front. I just want others to know that the full AD faction does not condone some of the plays being made in this campaign.

Yea I don´t underestimate your points and keep on doing whatever makes you happy in this game. A lot of people just want to have fun and feel playing the map isn´t their priority. The campaign victory is taken by some pvdooring and 24/7 presence which is consummating. The honeymoon period of this game is over and the reality is that it is hard to get people to play the game more than a couple of hours a time. Personally I just want to play with friends. I skip everything else as I have no interest.

zyk

Slowbromance wrote: »

I want to make one thing clear. I am AD tried and true. I am simply voicing the frustrations I know many people in my faction are feeling after this tactic has occurred twice in this campaign costing us on the home front.

I will still continue to fight for AD and help my fellows on the home front. I just want others to know that the full AD faction does not condone some of the plays being made in this campaign.

If you go back to last year, AD pugs and randoms were very engaged in map play and defense. I used to think that of all three factions, AD's randoms were best at that.

But as AD lost more and more decent players -- a process that began after Rage stopped running in 2016 but really escalated last spring -- running as an AD random/pug became much more challenging.

It really became noticeable with Midyear Mayhem 2017. Everyone became AP obsessed and AD was the least effective at a combat level, so it became the first target of EP and DC groups. That mentality, IMO, continued on through summer, fall and winter. As it did, AD lost more and more decent players who became frustrated.

When I talk of the AD who rerolled, it's not just those now playing for known guilds like Drac and Invictus. It's small group players, solo players, surfers, etc.. Every kind of player is represented. I was shocked by some of the formerly extremely loyal AD who switched sides.

I ended up leaving my AD PVP guild because I was constantly triggered by the number of guildmates who switched sides. Some of them admitted that when our guild wasn't running, they didn't want to play solo for AD because it was too frustrating. They played to have fun, they said, and playing for AD wasn't fun.

I think that at this point, those remaining have given up when there's not an organized group engaged in map play. My guess would be that last night the AD randoms felt they had a choice of being farmed by EP groups or surfing the organized AD who were running.

Blame the relentless EP pug hunters and the AD who switched sides to fight with them.

Slowbromance

Yep, I know a lot of AD that just completely stopped playing and moved to other games as a whole. It's rough out there, but I know there are plenty of us still ready to pick up and keep on fighting.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

zyk wrote: »

When I talk of the AD who rerolled, it's not just those now playing for known guilds like Drac.

Who are you referring to lol? we have 1 AD reroll in the guild (1/20 players in guild). They rerolled because their guild kicked them for trying to improve their raid and then subsequently joined us after having played EP for some time.

I would prefer if you want to give an example of our guild that you ask for the information first so that it is correct.

zyk

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

When I talk of the AD who rerolled, it's not just those now playing for known guilds like Drac.

Who are you referring to lol? we have 1 AD reroll in the guild (1/20 players in guild). They rerolled because their guild kicked them for trying to improve their raid and then subsequently joined us after having played EP for some time.

I would prefer if you want to give an example of our guild that you ask for the information first so that it is correct.

Maybe a recent reroll, but in terms of which faction your players started with, I've noticed more than a few ex-AD before -- which Vilestride seems to agree with.

Munavar

For the record, neither do I run at that time of day nor am I overly fond of the ‘Bleakers Run’. People remember its heyday before outposts became a spawn points and DC & EP saw it as an obstacle in getting at each other.

If a small group captures the outpost it can be fun for them for a limited amount of time as either DC or EP will spend time and gather numbers (over a series of engagements) to dislodge the limited resistance. As more AD blood port (as they see the action is there and figure to surf a competent group) this location dries up in regards to fights.

Until ZOS rolls back the change on outposts being a spawn point (and why would they?), this activity now only serves as a signal DC & EP to head south in mass. The size of the AD group at Bleakers only serves as component of time as to when the migration begins.



With that being stated, the night would have changed very little or poorly for those AD involved.

When Chalman turns DC it is the same flag. It indicates to both sides to take a breather from each other and they head south. (Time to have some fun with those17K VD procs, I mean AD).

As this collection of players was at one location, it is safe to assume they would have similarly been at one location (for the same reasons) in the south facing a faction stack of DC or EP (depending on which castle they chose). This outcome is a lot less fun for them than engaging the few DC\EP which did not heed their respective zone chat calls to avoid Bleakers.

If they chose:

1. Roebeck: EP PvDoors the castles they did and take the scroll they took. Maybe even the second scroll if a group of DC doesn’t peel off and PvDoor Brindle and Black Boot.
2. Alessia: Same result just factions are reversed and DC has the scrolls.
3. Faregyl: The AD ‘wastes’ a lot of their play time waiting as the factions PvDoors everything else and turn the last keep into a slide show. The end result is the same with Faregyl possibly being DC instead of EP.
4. Black Boot: They wait longer maybe not have any fights as possibly DC & EP engage at Faregyl.
5. Bloodmayne: They wait longer maybe not have any fights as possibly DC & EP engage at Faregyl.

As many have stated across several posts, the decisions ultimately do not matter to the campaign as EP has the population imbalance to take everything and turn the map red a few hours latter. Those AD made the choice which they deemed would result in the most fun for them.

Yes, for the few AD down south the night was awful (getting rolled over by the faction stacks) but in the end (given all the factors), they made the correct decision for themselves (as long as they had a fun night).



Associating player activity to campaign score is a different discussion.

1. Capturing undefended objectives (PvDoor) should be worth zero AP [(# of defenders / # of attackers) * base AP of objective] with a base condition that at least one defender died. (Maybe add a ratio of time taken to capture versus expected time as a factor to override the counts of the equation as a way to reduce abuse of having an equal number of friends on the defending faction standing around 'defending' or defenders bugging out in order to troll the attackers.) After all, there was no PvP activity involved.
   
2. Captured undefended objectives should start with a negative campaign point total (rounded to zero during evaluations) and gain in point value over time. Basically, if you want the campaign points take a defended objective or hold the easily captured objective for a few hours.

.

WaltherCarraway

If half of the faction ain't ganking or waiting for next gank in stealth then AD would be competitive.

Akinos

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

If half of the faction ain't ganking or waiting for next gank in stealth then AD would be competitive.

AD characters are born invisible, clutching bows in hand as they open their eyes for the first time, looking upon a world that they will most likely not survive very long in.

Jadokis

Luthid wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

I can attest to what EP was like in zone chat as soon as Bleakers flipped yellow. EP called for Aleswell to be abandoned (it was red at the time) and get back to the home keeps to defend them and not have most of our players cut off from the rest. And that's exactly what happened. While one guild farmed bleaks, the rest of AD pushed BRK and even with three breaches got wiped because EP responded appropriately.

Very similar in DC zone. It was said that “if AD is willing to trade the entire map for Bleakers, let’s let ‘em”, and we were aligned in pushing south. We took Roe and Brindle before we even bothered to circle back for Ales.

Jadokis wrote: »

AD is not a hivemind zerg like EP It is hard for us to agree on where we will have fun playing on the map.

I think that’s the point thought, is that AD does have a hive mind lately, and focuses it on Bleakers. There are genuinely fewer than 5 AD in each of your keeps that we take when this happens. The entire rest of your (pop locked) faction is at Bleaks.

I don't think you understand the concept of a hivemind. Which is very unfortunate.

Wing

I would just like to say that AD is often cursing out the bleakers AD trolls in zone chat.

we are well aware of what it will cause and what we are probably going to lose because of it.

all because one group wants to go troll for AP at the expense of the entire alliance.

these are the same types of groups that form organized 6-12 man squads and go sit at an enemy keep resource well aware that they can kill the majority of groups or players coming there way.

then proceed to talk mad s**t about how it took a zerg to kill them when there fully aware ONLY a zerg would be able to kill them.