Know what one of the dumbest features in PVP right now is in my opinion?

Xsorus

The fact that you can burst an undefended keep in 3 minutes....


Keeps shouldn't be push overs...even undefended ones..you certainly shouldn't just mow right through the walls or doors in minutes....

White wabbit

Xsorus wrote: »

The fact that you can burst an undefended keep in 3 minutes....


Keeps shouldn't be push overs...even undefended ones..you certainly shouldn't just mow right through the walls or doors in minutes....

With how people are freezing in this game you can even take a defended one as easy

Derra

Zos allows too much siege that deals too much damage to be placed down at the same time because they have to appeal to people that enjoy leftclicking every few seconds.

Lowering dmg or numbers of offensive siege would mean the same for defensive ones (otherwise defense would be op) - that however isn´t really an option because of the beforementioned leftclick fetishists + would make sieges boring as walls are intended as an impenetrable defense.

To adjust this they´d have to allow bypassing of walls by other means to create combat possibilities outside of using siege.

zyk

Xsorus wrote: »

The fact that you can burst an undefended keep in 3 minutes....


Keeps shouldn't be push overs...even undefended ones..you certainly shouldn't just mow right through the walls or doors in minutes....

Even as late as 1.6, I recall pugs wiping to guards when pvdooring. When I began pvping in 1.3, it was normal for that to happen. The degree to which the game is easier now is astounding.

Xsorus

zyk wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

The fact that you can burst an undefended keep in 3 minutes....


Keeps shouldn't be push overs...even undefended ones..you certainly shouldn't just mow right through the walls or doors in minutes....

Even as late as 1.6, I recall pugs wiping to guards when pvdooring. When I began pvping in 1.3, it was normal for that to happen. The degree to which the game is easier now is astounding.

I'm going to use DAOC as yet another example..and really there are other things that are a huge issue with this sort of mass warfare.

In daoc, Hauling around siege was not easy..it was very heavy..which meant you usually only had a couple people with Siege and it actually took a second to build...In this game..people can carry a CRAP ton of siege and just drop it damn near instantly so you have 20 Ballista pounding on wall or door in a second which is moronic..Which brings me to another point..

In DAOC when a zerg was moving..It was not fast...It was generally slow and you generally needed a zerg to even take a slightly defended keep....In this game Zergs speed around extremely fast (which completely removes the advantage of a small group has which is suppose to be fast movement) and then they get to a keep and instantly burst it down.

Bursting a Keep should not be a thing...The very fact that its a thing is just completely silly to me

Siege can be powerful...I have zero problem with Siege wrecking players and such...But they need to VASTLY scale up the HP of Keep Walls and Doors..

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Xsorus wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

The fact that you can burst an undefended keep in 3 minutes....


Keeps shouldn't be push overs...even undefended ones..you certainly shouldn't just mow right through the walls or doors in minutes....

Even as late as 1.6, I recall pugs wiping to guards when pvdooring. When I began pvping in 1.3, it was normal for that to happen. The degree to which the game is easier now is astounding.

I'm going to use DAOC as yet another example..and really there are other things that are a huge issue with this sort of mass warfare.

In daoc, Hauling around siege was not easy..it was very heavy..which meant you usually only had a couple people with Siege and it actually took a second to build...In this game..people can carry a CRAP ton of siege and just drop it damn near instantly so you have 20 Ballista pounding on wall or door in a second which is moronic..Which brings me to another point..

In DAOC when a zerg was moving..It was not fast...It was generally slow and you generally needed a zerg to even take a slightly defended keep....In this game Zergs speed around extremely fast (which completely removes the advantage of a small group has which is suppose to be fast movement) and then they get to a keep and instantly burst it down.

Bursting a Keep should not be a thing...The very fact that its a thing is just completely silly to me

Siege can be powerful...I have zero problem with Siege wrecking players and such...But they need to VASTLY scale up the HP of Keep Walls and Doors..

If they do this you will mainly see only frontline zerging. I would much rather bring back the old camps to allow for an option to defend back line keeps easier and spread around the map. Drop a camp "cool maybe there's a nice fight over there" used to really help.

GreenSoup2HoT

Bring back needing resources to siege faster.

Biro123

I wonder if placing offensive siege should only be possible after taking all three resources..

I mean, you'd need wood from the lumber mill to make em, iren from the mine for the hinges/nails etc.. and food from the farm to feed the besiegers..

Would remove much of the surprise where siege starts with no resources taken, and the first the defenders know is when it lit-up and you can't port..

Xsorus

Biro123 wrote: »

I wonder if placing offensive siege should only be possible after taking all three resources..

I mean, you'd need wood from the lumber mill to make em, iren from the mine for the hinges/nails etc.. and food from the farm to feed the besiegers..

Would remove much of the surprise where siege starts with no resources taken, and the first the defenders know is when it lit-up and you can't port..

See this I’d be fine with

zyk

Biro123 wrote: »

Would remove much of the surprise where siege starts with no resources taken, and the first the defenders know is when it lit-up and you can't port..

I think this is a good idea because the gameplay design should create opportunities for fun PVP. There are way too many keep conflicts that are pure PVE. And PVE in this game is very very very bad. I don't know how anyone finds enjoyment in taking undefended keeps.

Lexxypwns

Xsorus wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

The fact that you can burst an undefended keep in 3 minutes....


Keeps shouldn't be push overs...even undefended ones..you certainly shouldn't just mow right through the walls or doors in minutes....

Even as late as 1.6, I recall pugs wiping to guards when pvdooring. When I began pvping in 1.3, it was normal for that to happen. The degree to which the game is easier now is astounding.

I'm going to use DAOC as yet another example..and really there are other things that are a huge issue with this sort of mass warfare.

In daoc, Hauling around siege was not easy..it was very heavy..which meant you usually only had a couple people with Siege and it actually took a second to build...In this game..people can carry a CRAP ton of siege and just drop it damn near instantly so you have 20 Ballista pounding on wall or door in a second which is moronic..Which brings me to another point..

In DAOC when a zerg was moving..It was not fast...It was generally slow and you generally needed a zerg to even take a slightly defended keep....In this game Zergs speed around extremely fast (which completely removes the advantage of a small group has which is suppose to be fast movement) and then they get to a keep and instantly burst it down.

Bursting a Keep should not be a thing...The very fact that its a thing is just completely silly to me

Siege can be powerful...I have zero problem with Siege wrecking players and such...But they need to VASTLY scale up the HP of Keep Walls and Doors..

One time in DAoC...

Xsorus

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

The fact that you can burst an undefended keep in 3 minutes....


Keeps shouldn't be push overs...even undefended ones..you certainly shouldn't just mow right through the walls or doors in minutes....

Even as late as 1.6, I recall pugs wiping to guards when pvdooring. When I began pvping in 1.3, it was normal for that to happen. The degree to which the game is easier now is astounding.

I'm going to use DAOC as yet another example..and really there are other things that are a huge issue with this sort of mass warfare.

In daoc, Hauling around siege was not easy..it was very heavy..which meant you usually only had a couple people with Siege and it actually took a second to build...In this game..people can carry a CRAP ton of siege and just drop it damn near instantly so you have 20 Ballista pounding on wall or door in a second which is moronic..Which brings me to another point..

In DAOC when a zerg was moving..It was not fast...It was generally slow and you generally needed a zerg to even take a slightly defended keep....In this game Zergs speed around extremely fast (which completely removes the advantage of a small group has which is suppose to be fast movement) and then they get to a keep and instantly burst it down.

Bursting a Keep should not be a thing...The very fact that its a thing is just completely silly to me

Siege can be powerful...I have zero problem with Siege wrecking players and such...But they need to VASTLY scale up the HP of Keep Walls and Doors..

One time in DAoC...

Yeap; because that’s what this game is taking from. It’d be like if you made a car without wheels and then someone said hey you know all these other past cars had wheels.

lazerlaz

I'd rather it be easy to take than almost impossible defended.

Way back when in Dark Age of Camelot the npcs defending relics (just like scrolls in eso) were so hard to kill that they would wipe fully geared experienced zergs... And oddly the relic keeps didn't even have walls!!!!

Ya, easy to roll a keep is fine, go roll it back!

TequilaFire

Just stop pvdooring when no one is on.

Xsorus

lazerlaz wrote: »

I'd rather it be easy to take than almost impossible defended.

Way back when in Dark Age of Camelot the npcs defending relics (just like scrolls in eso) were so hard to kill that they would wipe fully geared experienced zergs... And oddly the relic keeps didn't even have walls!!!!

Ya, easy to roll a keep is fine, go roll it back!

I'm not talking about making the guards stronger, Just making the keeps harder to be burst open.

Derra

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

The fact that you can burst an undefended keep in 3 minutes....


Keeps shouldn't be push overs...even undefended ones..you certainly shouldn't just mow right through the walls or doors in minutes....

Even as late as 1.6, I recall pugs wiping to guards when pvdooring. When I began pvping in 1.3, it was normal for that to happen. The degree to which the game is easier now is astounding.

I'm going to use DAOC as yet another example..and really there are other things that are a huge issue with this sort of mass warfare.

In daoc, Hauling around siege was not easy..it was very heavy..which meant you usually only had a couple people with Siege and it actually took a second to build...In this game..people can carry a CRAP ton of siege and just drop it damn near instantly so you have 20 Ballista pounding on wall or door in a second which is moronic..Which brings me to another point..

In DAOC when a zerg was moving..It was not fast...It was generally slow and you generally needed a zerg to even take a slightly defended keep....In this game Zergs speed around extremely fast (which completely removes the advantage of a small group has which is suppose to be fast movement) and then they get to a keep and instantly burst it down.

Bursting a Keep should not be a thing...The very fact that its a thing is just completely silly to me

Siege can be powerful...I have zero problem with Siege wrecking players and such...But they need to VASTLY scale up the HP of Keep Walls and Doors..

One time in DAoC...

You mean one time in a game that actually had working ava mechanics/map that fullfilled the goal of allowing for all sorts of different playstyles to be vaible and participate in most situations?

There is a reason why daoc was a role model for eso pvp and basically anyone who played it still refers to it as the best mmo open pvp to ever exist.

It´s a damn shame that some stick to crown carebears are trying to turn this "one time in daoc" by xorus into an eso forum meme and are somewhat succeeding. It just goes to showcase that all you have to do is get a group of people shouting something loud and long enough - no matter how idiotic it is - people will pick up on it.

Recremen

If you have 20/20 siege then you have every right to take a keep out completely. Current siege pacing is perfect as few keeps are completely undefended and even a little bit of intelligent defensework makes it difficult for siegers to stay on task. If keeps get any tankier it'll ruin the pace as we've all trained to respond quickly in the current meta and we'd only promote more faction stacking by drawing it out longer.

Xsorus

Recremen wrote: »

If you have 20/20 siege then you have every right to take a keep out completely. Current siege pacing is perfect as few keeps are completely undefended and even a little bit of intelligent defensework makes it difficult for siegers to stay on task. If keeps get any tankier it'll ruin the pace as we've all trained to respond quickly in the current meta and we'd only promote more faction stacking by drawing it out longer.

Why do you deserve to take a keep with 20 siege when siege is dirt cheap and easy to move and transfer? It'd be one thing if that was a Challenge..but its not.... you certainly shouldn't be able to instantly drop it down and take down a keep in 2 to 3 minutes..that's just dumb.

Also i'd argue that it wouldn't cause faction stacking...I think the Meta would change where you have to spread out and hit multiple targets at once and you know..spread out and guard from the Faction coming to defend the keep...you know..like back in the day where you'd sit in between the lanes and attack targets on the way to the keep.

Recremen

Xsorus wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

If you have 20/20 siege then you have every right to take a keep out completely. Current siege pacing is perfect as few keeps are completely undefended and even a little bit of intelligent defensework makes it difficult for siegers to stay on task. If keeps get any tankier it'll ruin the pace as we've all trained to respond quickly in the current meta and we'd only promote more faction stacking by drawing it out longer.

Why do you deserve to take a keep with 20 siege when siege is dirt cheap and easy to move and transfer? It'd be one thing if that was a Challenge..but its not.... you certainly shouldn't be able to instantly drop it down and take down a keep in 2 to 3 minutes..that's just dumb.

Also i'd argue that it wouldn't cause faction stacking...I think the Meta would change where you have to spread out and hit multiple targets at once and you know..spread out and guard from the Faction coming to defend the keep...you know..like back in the day where you'd sit in between the lanes and attack targets on the way to the keep.

I could throw that back at you and ask why your faction deserves to maintain control of a keep it can't even be bothered to defend, but I happen to be standing on an immovable bedrock of sound reasoning on this topic and will instead play along.

The ease of sieging a keep and the inexpesiveness of siege do not matter. The main purpose of the whole siege mechanic to begin with is to draw out a keep engagement long enough to collect an appropriate number of players from the competing factions. The siege itself isn't supposed to be a challenge, otherwise they'd have made it more challenging. We don't see that, however. Keeps can be damaged along huge, easy-to-hit stretches of their surface with a simple point-and-click mechanic. Thus, making siege take artificially longer hardly constitutes a challenge, it constitutes a bore.

So why do you really want siege to take longer? Obviously it's some kind of negative personal experience. Perhaps your faction has a habit of leaving certain keeps entirely undefended, opening them up to coordinated PvDoor efforts. It's curious that you mention the "2-3 minute" time, however. Obviously this is hyperbole, as even 20/20 siege with rapids and guard nuking shouldn't let you take down both front doors (the quickest siege spot) takes longer than that. Still it does take a relatively short amount of time... on the lowest-level keeps. You know, the ones that flip constantly and don't have time to let the keep upgrade so that it takes longer. Meaning, if you're only being a little bit hyperbolic, your faction is probably leaving the emp-ring keeps completely undefended and open for PvDoor. Your faction should be punished for such gross negligence, truth be told. Those keeps are the hottest items and if you can't even put up the most basic defense on your front-line keeps then yeah, the other faction deserves it more than your faction.

And no, the meta doesn't change regarding faction stacking as it relates to keep siege. The longer a siege goes on, the more stacked all involved factions get at that keep. It's an observable fact, it's what happens on live, it's irrefutable. And people DO still sit between keeps ganking people so I'm not sure what you're talking about with this "back in the day" stuff.

Derra

Recremen wrote: »

I could throw that back at you and ask why your faction deserves to maintain control of a keep it can't even be bothered to defend, but I happen to be standing on an immovable bedrock of sound reasoning on this topic and will instead play along.

The issue is more along the lines of:
There is no way to defend a keep once it goes under siege because riding there takes longer than ramming 2nd door + turn flags.
So the only way to counteract this is by literally having people wait in keeps and spy for siege. Fun engaging gameplay - not.

This was solved in daoc by having keep/outpost guards report to the claiming guilds guildchat if they had enemy contact and with how many enemy players.

Recremen

Derra wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

I could throw that back at you and ask why your faction deserves to maintain control of a keep it can't even be bothered to defend, but I happen to be standing on an immovable bedrock of sound reasoning on this topic and will instead play along.

The issue is more along the lines of:
There is no way to defend a keep once it goes under siege because riding there takes longer than ramming 2nd door + turn flags.
So the only way to counteract this is by literally having people wait in keeps and spy for siege. Fun engaging gameplay - not.

This was solved in daoc by having keep/outpost guards report to the claiming guilds guildchat if they had enemy contact and with how many enemy players.

Except that it's rather a nonissue since it's extremely rare for there to be nobody inside a keep, or for nobody to have seen the opposing faction's movement to give some warning. And even with max siege the gate keeps usually give ample time for response due to their extra health from upgrades. Further, unless your primary guilds are on the other side of the map, I've extremely rarely seen a situation where there wasn't time to respond to a siege fast enough to at least defend flags, if not (usually) defend the walls themselves. Even with surprise burst siege.

Are we just playing different games here? I'm on PC NA Vivec campaign, and this has not been an issue.

Derra

I see suprise burst sieges basically every day on EU vivec on remote keeps.

The 3 outer keeps + 6 scrollgate keeps get ninjad fairly frequently and are usually flipped before people get there.

Feanor

Tying offensive siege to taking resources doesn’t help though. I mean, if you take all three resources the keep transitus is cut anyway. For a larger group it’s easy to cap all 3 resources in the same moment.

I‘d rather use a system already in place: Increase the defensive bonuses assigned to the resources greatly and let these deteriorate in increments of 2 minutes after the resource was taken. This gives the defenders more time for the ride while not making it impossible for the attackers.

Biro123

Derra wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

I could throw that back at you and ask why your faction deserves to maintain control of a keep it can't even be bothered to defend, but I happen to be standing on an immovable bedrock of sound reasoning on this topic and will instead play along.

The issue is more along the lines of:
There is no way to defend a keep once it goes under siege because riding there takes longer than ramming 2nd door + turn flags.
So the only way to counteract this is by literally having people wait in keeps and spy for siege. Fun engaging gameplay - not.

This was solved in daoc by having keep/outpost guards report to the claiming guilds guildchat if they had enemy contact and with how many enemy players.

Oh, I remember that - and the calls going out for the whole guild to drop everything and go defend.. whether PVE-ing or not at the time.

TequilaFire

Problem is if you make it take longer to take a keep it works to the alliance with the most populations favor as it gives more time for the zerg to arrive to crush the small group.
Fix population balance first.
I would be fine with the guards generating a pre flag alert although that could be trolled by one player.
Rams are maybe slightly overtuned.

rfennell_ESO

Xsorus wrote: »

The fact that you can burst an undefended keep in 3 minutes....


Keeps shouldn't be push overs...even undefended ones..you certainly shouldn't just mow right through the walls or doors in minutes....

It started when they increased ram damage imo.

It intensified when they made it easier to stack siege weapons in smaller footprints.

Recremen

Derra wrote: »

I see suprise burst sieges basically every day on EU vivec on remote keeps.

The 3 outer keeps + 6 scrollgate keeps get ninjad fairly frequently and are usually flipped before people get there.

Then all I can say is that y'all are slow. NA #1 in response time.

jaws343

Derra wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

I could throw that back at you and ask why your faction deserves to maintain control of a keep it can't even be bothered to defend, but I happen to be standing on an immovable bedrock of sound reasoning on this topic and will instead play along.

The issue is more along the lines of:
There is no way to defend a keep once it goes under siege because riding there takes longer than ramming 2nd door + turn flags.
So the only way to counteract this is by literally having people wait in keeps and spy for siege. Fun engaging gameplay - not.

This was solved in daoc by having keep/outpost guards report to the claiming guilds guildchat if they had enemy contact and with how many enemy players.

It sounds like whatever faction/server you play on has a coordination issue. Xbox NA Vivec on the EP side has a full chatter of call outs. We see where the enemy is headed and call out keeps in zone that may end up in trouble far before and directly at the start of a siege. Sure, sometimes you may end up porting to a keep that doesn't get hit, but it's worth the trouble to listen to zone call outs and miss than ignore them and lose a keep.

Also, if you learn to read the map, you can anticipate what the other factions are going to do. For example, BRK gets taken over by AD pushing north for EMP. Either Arius or Chalman is going to go next, probably both at the same time. Or Arius will be flagged to interrupt reinforcements to Chalman. So, what do you do? Once BRK falls, go directly to one of these two keeps. No need to wait for it to flag or for the enemy to even get there. Get ahead of the game and you won't have undefended keeps being sieged in minutes.

As a mostly solo player, anticipating where the fights are going to be is vital to enjoying the game. Can't fight other players if I am running around mindlessly waiting for keeps to get flagged before I respond.

Dreyloch

Xsorus wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

The fact that you can burst an undefended keep in 3 minutes....


Keeps shouldn't be push overs...even undefended ones..you certainly shouldn't just mow right through the walls or doors in minutes....

Even as late as 1.6, I recall pugs wiping to guards when pvdooring. When I began pvping in 1.3, it was normal for that to happen. The degree to which the game is easier now is astounding.

I'm going to use DAOC as yet another example..and really there are other things that are a huge issue with this sort of mass warfare.

In daoc, Hauling around siege was not easy..it was very heavy..which meant you usually only had a couple people with Siege and it actually took a second to build...In this game..people can carry a CRAP ton of siege and just drop it damn near instantly so you have 20 Ballista pounding on wall or door in a second which is moronic..Which brings me to another point..

In DAOC when a zerg was moving..It was not fast...It was generally slow and you generally needed a zerg to even take a slightly defended keep....In this game Zergs speed around extremely fast (which completely removes the advantage of a small group has which is suppose to be fast movement) and then they get to a keep and instantly burst it down.

Bursting a Keep should not be a thing...The very fact that its a thing is just completely silly to me

Siege can be powerful...I have zero problem with Siege wrecking players and such...But they need to VASTLY scale up the HP of Keep Walls and Doors..

You forgot something about DAoC. I only played vanilla till about level 48. But I distinctly recall players being able to melee doors with weapons. Besides any siege that was hitting it. (it's a little fuzzy as it was so long ago. Honestly not even sure siege engines were used/maybe not in the game yet?) I only ventured into PvP a couple times because I picked a terrible non-stealth melee class for it, and ended up quitting the game.

Xsorus

Recremen wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I see suprise burst sieges basically every day on EU vivec on remote keeps.

The 3 outer keeps + 6 scrollgate keeps get ninjad fairly frequently and are usually flipped before people get there.

Then all I can say is that y'all are slow. NA #1 in response time.

Umm, it happens every single day on NA...I don't know who you're kidding.

Xsorus

Dreyloch wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

The fact that you can burst an undefended keep in 3 minutes....


Keeps shouldn't be push overs...even undefended ones..you certainly shouldn't just mow right through the walls or doors in minutes....

Even as late as 1.6, I recall pugs wiping to guards when pvdooring. When I began pvping in 1.3, it was normal for that to happen. The degree to which the game is easier now is astounding.

I'm going to use DAOC as yet another example..and really there are other things that are a huge issue with this sort of mass warfare.

In daoc, Hauling around siege was not easy..it was very heavy..which meant you usually only had a couple people with Siege and it actually took a second to build...In this game..people can carry a CRAP ton of siege and just drop it damn near instantly so you have 20 Ballista pounding on wall or door in a second which is moronic..Which brings me to another point..

In DAOC when a zerg was moving..It was not fast...It was generally slow and you generally needed a zerg to even take a slightly defended keep....In this game Zergs speed around extremely fast (which completely removes the advantage of a small group has which is suppose to be fast movement) and then they get to a keep and instantly burst it down.

Bursting a Keep should not be a thing...The very fact that its a thing is just completely silly to me

Siege can be powerful...I have zero problem with Siege wrecking players and such...But they need to VASTLY scale up the HP of Keep Walls and Doors..

You forgot something about DAoC. I only played vanilla till about level 48. But I distinctly recall players being able to melee doors with weapons. Besides any siege that was hitting it. (it's a little fuzzy as it was so long ago. Honestly not even sure siege engines were used/maybe not in the game yet?) I only ventured into PvP a couple times because I picked a terrible non-stealth melee class for it, and ended up quitting the game.

Yea very early on you could..I honestly don't even remember if you could do it later on as very few people did it because of Oil and well...it took forever..I remember it taking zergs of 100+ people like 10 minutes+ to beat down a door with no Siege.