DPS Question

THEDKEXPERIENCE

As a console pleb I have a limited number of ways to calculate my DPS past either wacking away at a stagnant dummy or simply the eye test, “it looks like I’m doing more damage, I think?”

Anyway here is my question ... if can do 20k DPS against a single opponent (estimated on tool tip values and how long it takes to kill a delve boss) or 15k equally to 3 NPCs at once what’s my DPS? Is it 20k because of the single target or is the ability to apply damage to multiple targets at once raise what your DPS “score” would be?

I’ve always been confused at the value people put on the dummy scores because I’ve yet to face a player in PvP or an NPC in a dungeon that both doesn’t fight back or move, let alone the fact that fighting multiple things at once happens all the time.

Merlin13KAGL

Single target is usually the baseline number people are going for. If you can ST a certain value, that's the lowest your DPS should ever be. In fights with multiple enemies, your AoE will result in overall DPS going up, but bear in mind that's divided among however many enemies there are. (And with some rare exceptions, like lightning splash damage), the per-target DPS will rarely be more than your single target.

Yes, stuff fights back. Yes, stuff moves. But the target skele is the only way to provide that consistent baseline for comparison of one build/rotation to another.

The idea being, your DPS will go down some with movement, survivability factors, and mechanics. In group scenarios, your dps will go up some via group buffs, etc.

The more familiar you are with your character and the scenario, the less loss your should have to mechanics.

The idea being, your DPS increase from group buffs should be more than the dps loss from the other stuff.

Thus, the single target value still has worth and is the go-to value.

TheDarkoil

As far as a single target parse goes it may seem pretty useless to stand hammering away at a target skele but usually within trials and dungeons that’s how the boss fights go so your single target score is important.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Single target is usually the baseline number people are going for. If you can ST a certain value, that's the lowest your DPS should ever be. In fights with multiple enemies, your AoE will result in overall DPS going up, but bear in mind that's divided among however many enemies there are. (And with some rare exceptions, like lightning splash damage), the per-target DPS will rarely be more than your single target.

Yes, stuff fights back. Yes, stuff moves. But the target skele is the only way to provide that consistent baseline for comparison of one build/rotation to another.

The idea being, your DPS will go down some with movement, survivability factors, and mechanics. In group scenarios, your dps will go up some via group buffs, etc.

The more familiar you are with your character and the scenario, the less loss your should have to mechanics.

The idea being, your DPS increase from group buffs should be more than the dps loss from the other stuff.

Thus, the single target value still has worth and is the go-to value.

That makes sense. My toon can do an almost equal amount of damage to multiple people than one ... in some cases much more. Thanks for the explanation. Makes sense.

Narvuntien

Okay so in dungeons it is the role of a tank to take a boss and keep it still. Allowing for you to just wail on it like it was a target dummy. Sure plenty of bosses still move untauntabily or deal AoE damage that will force you to move.

But the target dummy helps you to practice your rotation and improve your personal ability to deal damage.

Vast majority of your damage even single target against a target dummy is your own AoE damage over time spells. That is elemental blockade for Magicka and endless hail for Stamina. These ability will continue to deal damage as long as the tank keeps the boss still and will hit many enemies.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

Narvuntien wrote: »

Okay so in dungeons it is the role of a tank to take a boss and keep it still. Allowing for you to just wail on it like it was a target dummy. Sure plenty of bosses still move untauntabily or deal AoE damage that will force you to move.

But the target dummy helps you to practice your rotation and improve your personal ability to deal damage.

Vast majority of your damage even single target against a target dummy is your own AoE damage over time spells. That is elemental blockade for Magicka and endless hail for Stamina. These ability will continue to deal damage as long as the tank keeps the boss still and will hit many enemies.

I’m primarily a PVPer so I rarely have the benefit of a tank drawing any fire from me. That’s probably where my initial confusion was ... if I didn’t have to worry about defense past a rudimentary level my DPS on a single target would likely be outrageous but it would be mostly BS because I wouldn’t be able to really utilize it in the environment in which I most often play.

Now I wonder how many people build just for nonsensically large DPS parse screenshots and then quietly change skills when no one is looking.

kylewwefan

Yes.

There is a good value to it though...well to a certain point.

The average casual player that’s pumping out a whopping 7k damage. (True story) This is only gonna get worse in action. Let’s say they’re even 17k Damage single target. It’s not terrible imo, and if they can keep doing that and play mechanics; they’re probably gonna be alright.

But if it falls too much, they’re just a liability, not really adding enough to your group.

Now, The try hard rocking 45k on a stand still dummy parse. Yeah. You know this guy is gonna be alright. If he can stay alive. Even if his damage is halfed from moving around and doing mechanics. He’s still doing decent damage. This guy can carry someone doing not very much.

So, you find yourself getting into a VAA group stuck at the last boss. All the 30k + DPS left and your stuck with 3 players doing 8k, 2 tanks, 2 healers....and 4 DD in the 20k range. It ain’t gonna work. Happens all the time.


You’ll know who they are. The guys moving in and out and left and right for no apparent reason. Dancing around. Light attack spamming. Never use an ultimate, or a potion. To them, this is the next Skyrim. DPS is a negligible afterthought.

Didn’t everyone wear heavy armor, S/B and hard cast crystal frags at one point. Maybe wrecking blow spam.


I’m on console too. Hate beating on that dummy. But I have to admit, it is useful to an extent.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

kylewwefan wrote: »

Yes.

There is a good value to it though...well to a certain point.

The average casual player that’s pumping out a whopping 7k damage. (True story) This is only gonna get worse in action. Let’s say they’re even 17k Damage single target. It’s not terrible imo, and if they can keep doing that and play mechanics; they’re probably gonna be alright.

But if it falls too much, they’re just a liability, not really adding enough to your group.

Now, The try hard rocking 45k on a stand still dummy parse. Yeah. You know this guy is gonna be alright. If he can stay alive. Even if his damage is halfed from moving around and doing mechanics. He’s still doing decent damage. This guy can carry someone doing not very much.

So, you find yourself getting into a VAA group stuck at the last boss. All the 30k + DPS left and your stuck with 3 players doing 8k, 2 tanks, 2 healers....and 4 DD in the 20k range. It ain’t gonna work. Happens all the time.


You’ll know who they are. The guys moving in and out and left and right for no apparent reason. Dancing around. Light attack spamming. Never use an ultimate, or a potion. To them, this is the next Skyrim. DPS is a negligible afterthought.

Didn’t everyone wear heavy armor, S/B and hard cast crystal frags at one point. Maybe wrecking blow spam.


I’m on console too. Hate beating on that dummy. But I have to admit, it is useful to an extent.

Haha well said.

I’m just going to tell everyone I do 30k then

It’s funny though cause I suck against the dummy but have never played any content that I could not clear with a similarly skilled level of players in my group. I throw out so many dots that I’m sure there are times while I’m mid soul assault that my DPS can reach into the high 30s but that’s over in 4 seconds. I’m thinking that damage per minute is probably a more useful measurement due to that.

ResTandRespeC

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

As a console pleb I have a limited number of ways to calculate my DPS past either wacking away at a stagnant dummy or simply the eye test, “it looks like I’m doing more damage, I think?”

Anyway here is my question ... if can do 20k DPS against a single opponent (estimated on tool tip values and how long it takes to kill a delve boss) or 15k equally to 3 NPCs at once what’s my DPS? Is it 20k because of the single target or is the ability to apply damage to multiple targets at once raise what your DPS “score” would be?

I’ve always been confused at the value people put on the dummy scores because I’ve yet to face a player in PvP or an NPC in a dungeon that both doesn’t fight back or move, let alone the fact that fighting multiple things at once happens all the time.

Usually when people talk about dps they are talking about single target (ST). Specifically for console users like myself, the idea behind the dummy test for end game PvE players is if you cant execute a rotation on something that doesn't move/fight back, then there's no way you are going to be doing it on a moving/fighting target.

MEBengalsFan2001

Narvuntien wrote: »

Okay so in dungeons it is the role of a tank to take a boss and keep it still. Allowing for you to just wail on it like it was a target dummy. Sure plenty of bosses still move untauntabily or deal AoE damage that will force you to move.

But the target dummy helps you to practice your rotation and improve your personal ability to deal damage.

Vast majority of your damage even single target against a target dummy is your own AoE damage over time spells. That is elemental blockade for Magicka and endless hail for Stamina. These ability will continue to deal damage as long as the tank keeps the boss still and will hit many enemies.

Holding the boss as a tank and allowing the DPS to beat on the boss is typically called Tank n Spank. Are most bosses in ESO Tank n Spank where there are limited mechanics?

I personally enjoy bosses with mechanics that do not allow groups to do Tank N Spank. I like a boss with a scripted attacks and bosses that move around to make the boss a bit more challenging. Add to it, other mechanics such as room, adds, etc..than that is when a game becomes fun and enjoyable; that is when a game actually becomes a MMO where you actually need to work as a team and communicate to achieve your objective.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

In that Scenario, your ST DPS is 20k and your total DPS is 45k. On PC, Combat Metrics will actually tell you both. For example, you might do 50k total DPS on a trial fight with a lot of adds, but only do say 35k to the boss. Most people will say that ST is most important (and probably rage if you said you pulled 50k in that fight), and for the most part they are right. That said, AOE damage (total DPS) is not to be ignored. You might also hear it referred to as Cleave Damage. There are very few fights in this game that are pure single target. Some classes have better natural cleave damage than others.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

In that Scenario, your ST DPS is 20k and your total DPS is 45k. On PC, Combat Metrics will actually tell you both. For example, you might do 50k total DPS on a trial fight with a lot of adds, but only do say 35k to the boss. Most people will say that ST is most important (and probably rage if you said you pulled 50k in that fight), and for the most part they are right. That said, AOE damage (total DPS) is not to be ignored. You might also hear it referred to as Cleave Damage. There are very few fights in this game that are pure single target. Some classes have better natural cleave damage than others.

You kinda just nailed my personal issues with having a high DPS Magplar. Yeah, I can’t burst except situationally on a single target, but I can still do a ton of damage to 3 or more targets at once.

s7732425ub17_ESO

The only DPS number that matters for endgame Veteran content is a 6 million dummy parse.

Honestly, this is the most accurate reflection of what you can actually do in Trials and harder veteran dungeons. Remember, everyone's DPS is going to drop on certain bosses due to mechanics. But it's easy to see where your DPS should be based on a controlled situation (dummy parse).

No good endgame guild should accept a 3 million parse. 3 million does not show sustain. If you look at a bunch of builds that you find on Youtube, they will pull 40k on a 3 million. But if you ask them to do that on a 6 million, they will only be pulling 33k.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

The only DPS number that matters for endgame Veteran content is a 6 million dummy parse.

Honestly, this is the most accurate reflection of what you can actually do in Trials and harder veteran dungeons. Remember, everyone's DPS is going to drop on certain bosses due to mechanics. But it's easy to see where your DPS should be based on a controlled situation (dummy parse).

No good endgame guild should accept a 3 million parse. 3 million does not show sustain. If you look at a bunch of builds that you find on Youtube, they will pull 40k on a 3 million. But if you ask them to do that on a 6 million, they will only be pulling 33k.

Good end game guilds dont need dummy parses to know if you can play in the first place. I also disagree with this in large part, as its overly broad. There are plenty of good uses for 3 million health dummies. Certainly, if your goal is to "cheese" a parse, it's much easier to do so on a 3 million health dummy. That said, not all 3 million dummy parses are cheese. Simply put, you can track your resource recovery and drain in a fight. Sure if you end a 3 million dummy completely out of resources, it wont work in a trial, but assuming you maintain an actual trial rotation, you really shouldnt see much difference between the two. I think as long as you are aware of the differences, 3 million health dummies are useful practice tools.

Also, a 6 million parse is not always your best indicator, especially if solo. If I can sustain a 6 million health dummy when solo, I have actually gone over kill on sustain. I would argue that the best indicator of trial DPS is actually a raid dummy with a full group. Second best is probably a 6 million health dummy with ele/orbs being provided for you. Unless I wildly alter my execute phase (cheese), or ignore sustain (also cheese), i never see more than 1-2k difference between a 3 and 6 mill when totally self buffed.

LeagueTroll

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

The only DPS number that matters for endgame Veteran content is a 6 million dummy parse.

Honestly, this is the most accurate reflection of what you can actually do in Trials and harder veteran dungeons. Remember, everyone's DPS is going to drop on certain bosses due to mechanics. But it's easy to see where your DPS should be based on a controlled situation (dummy parse).

No good endgame guild should accept a 3 million parse. 3 million does not show sustain. If you look at a bunch of builds that you find on Youtube, they will pull 40k on a 3 million. But if you ask them to do that on a 6 million, they will only be pulling 33k.

Good end game guilds dont need dummy parses to know if you can play in the first place. I also disagree with this in large part, as its overly broad. There are plenty of good uses for 3 million health dummies. Certainly, if your goal is to "cheese" a parse, it's much easier to do so on a 3 million health dummy. That said, not all 3 million dummy parses are cheese. Simply put, you can track your resource recovery and drain in a fight. Sure if you end a 3 million dummy completely out of resources, it wont work in a trial, but assuming you maintain an actual trial rotation, you really shouldnt see much difference between the two. I think as long as you are aware of the differences, 3 million health dummies are useful practice tools.

Also, a 6 million parse is not always your best indicator, especially if solo. If I can sustain a 6 million health dummy when solo, I have actually gone over kill on sustain. I would argue that the best indicator of trial DPS is actually a raid dummy with a full group. Second best is probably a 6 million health dummy with ele/orbs being provided for you. Unless I wildly alter my execute phase (cheese), or ignore sustain (also cheese), i never see more than 1-2k difference between a 3 and 6 mill when totally self buffed.

Honestly ppl just too lazy to do that.

s7732425ub17_ESO

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

The only DPS number that matters for endgame Veteran content is a 6 million dummy parse.

Honestly, this is the most accurate reflection of what you can actually do in Trials and harder veteran dungeons. Remember, everyone's DPS is going to drop on certain bosses due to mechanics. But it's easy to see where your DPS should be based on a controlled situation (dummy parse).

No good endgame guild should accept a 3 million parse. 3 million does not show sustain. If you look at a bunch of builds that you find on Youtube, they will pull 40k on a 3 million. But if you ask them to do that on a 6 million, they will only be pulling 33k.

Good end game guilds dont need dummy parses to know if you can play in the first place. I also disagree with this in large part, as its overly broad. There are plenty of good uses for 3 million health dummies. Certainly, if your goal is to "cheese" a parse, it's much easier to do so on a 3 million health dummy. That said, not all 3 million dummy parses are cheese. Simply put, you can track your resource recovery and drain in a fight. Sure if you end a 3 million dummy completely out of resources, it wont work in a trial, but assuming you maintain an actual trial rotation, you really shouldnt see much difference between the two. I think as long as you are aware of the differences, 3 million health dummies are useful practice tools.

Also, a 6 million parse is not always your best indicator, especially if solo. If I can sustain a 6 million health dummy when solo, I have actually gone over kill on sustain. I would argue that the best indicator of trial DPS is actually a raid dummy with a full group. Second best is probably a 6 million health dummy with ele/orbs being provided for you. Unless I wildly alter my execute phase (cheese), or ignore sustain (also cheese), i never see more than 1-2k difference between a 3 and 6 mill when totally self buffed.

3 million is good for solo parses when comparing different sets. But it should not be used as a good baseline number because it can be heavily cheesed and does not show sustain. And if you get outside ele + orbs on a 3 million, it still can be a "burst" parse, leading to higher numbers than a 6 million.

The best baseline is a 6 million dummy with outside ele drain and orbs.

starkerealm

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

As a console pleb I have a limited number of ways to calculate my DPS past either wacking away at a stagnant dummy or simply the eye test, “it looks like I’m doing more damage, I think?”

Anyway here is my question ... if can do 20k DPS against a single opponent (estimated on tool tip values and how long it takes to kill a delve boss) or 15k equally to 3 NPCs at once what’s my DPS? Is it 20k because of the single target or is the ability to apply damage to multiple targets at once raise what your DPS “score” would be?

I’ve always been confused at the value people put on the dummy scores because I’ve yet to face a player in PvP or an NPC in a dungeon that both doesn’t fight back or move, let alone the fact that fighting multiple things at once happens all the time.

In theory, your dummy score reflects how well you've gotten your rotation down. There is some application here, because if you've spent 10 hours just pushing a rotation into muscle memory, that will show up in a dungeon. That said, there are plenty of people who return fantatic numbers on a dummy, but stand in stupid and take a dirt nap.