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The sad state of defense on a DK.
ak_pvp
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DK defense is the worst out of all the classes, by quite a lot, now, many of you will be shook by that statement, but continue reading. It is easier to survive in this meta on any other class than a DK. Last patch we hit a semi decent medium, kind of weak defenses, but at least the meta wasn't faced against us.
I thought we were the "tank class?" I quite liked the tankier playstyle of DKs, but I do not like being forced into it as it constantly gets worse. Our passives all synergize with the tank style, yet most MagDKs run light and resto to better extent, despite getting nothing extra from it, why is that?
DKs class defense mechanisms:
Heavy: This is been reduced from a cool brawler armour down to super basic tank armour, its at a worse spot than the old buffs (wrath, Constitution) because of the removal of block cost too. And the "tanky" aspect as been decimated by meta changes, bleeds, sloads (more on those below) wrath and constitution was generally balanced on the magicka end, whilst stam had some overpowered sets, instead of fixing them, they blanket nerfed the passives. "You shouldn't have defense and offense" is a poor excuse, since sorcs can shield for defense and maintain good offense, and NBs can cloak/roll whilst maintaining high offense. Is it only heavy that should be nerfed?
FIX: Funnily enough, now with JC, those sets aren't heavy exclusive anymore, so that is now a moot point, I say return wrath and rollback constitution to the non
Blocking: Running s/b means you lose a lot of damage and sustain. (On the mag end, no fancy fury/7th, and no heavy attacks for main stat) and blocking gimps you beyond belief. Snared, no weaving, no stam regen, and the massive cost of blocking, which is barely sustainable 1v1 even on a DK at minimum cost, in outnumbered its suicide. What is the point of all that mitigation when it only mildly delays your death? Its counters went from balanced to way over the top. Dots go through block (fair) and so do many AoEs (fair) but then 3/5 classes have an unblockable CC, and things like POTL or shalks are also unblockable, and then even worse, the meta of bleeds and sloads tear it a new one, ignoring all resistances too, basically double dipping.
FIX: Make block only tick twice per sec. Being outnumbered already means a lot more pressure, it shouldn't mean increased cost too, and fix bleeds/sloads.
Healing: NGL, pretty good. Not warden or templar, but nice either way. However, bleeds/sloads outdo it by a mile. Then defile exists, all this ends up rather weakened, and with no defense to stop the attacks hitting your HP, its a slow painful demise.
FIX: Nerf defile a little, nerf sloads/bleeds
Wings: Poor poor wings. Honestly awful to use. Super expensive, low amount of reflects so it falls in nearly 1s, so many abilities ignore it, why, god knows, its only projectiles, not all abilities, not even all ranged abilities, the modern sorc has 1 reflectable ability. Beyond that, it still takes status effects through it. Absolute worst defense in game. Wardens and NBs have a better version, and everyone has old wings on the 1h/s ult. The snare removal is useless, and will continue to be useless unless it is at the very least 3s (4 would be perf imo)
FIX: This would be the "non tank route" Make wings 3 projectiles per person for 4s. Make pulse/bird/status effects reflectable. Make cripple unreflectable. Make wings drop when CC'd. The snare removal should be at least 3s.
CCs: CCs are a mix between defense and offense, The ability to control your enemies is always good for alleviating pressure, but with immunity, its easy for stamina to nearly ignore it outright, not to mention its another aspect that other classes have, everyone but templar can CC similarly, and sorc/NB can do it better. So kind of a moot point that DKs CCing makes them more defensive.
Comparisons to other similar defenses:
TL;DR, either revert some of the DKs old tankiness as the ZOS proclaimed tank class, or change/buff our defenses to be worth while without it, clutching on shields/roll for the mag/stam respecitively can only go so far, especially when all the other classes can too with alternate defenses or better synergy to pair with it. This doesn't mean implement all the buffs, just revert a few of the overpowered nerfs.
I thought we were the "tank class?" I quite liked the tankier playstyle of DKs, but I do not like being forced into it as it constantly gets worse. Our passives all synergize with the tank style, yet most MagDKs run light and resto to better extent, despite getting nothing extra from it, why is that?
DKs class defense mechanisms:
Heavy: This is been reduced from a cool brawler armour down to super basic tank armour, its at a worse spot than the old buffs (wrath, Constitution) because of the removal of block cost too. And the "tanky" aspect as been decimated by meta changes, bleeds, sloads (more on those below) wrath and constitution was generally balanced on the magicka end, whilst stam had some overpowered sets, instead of fixing them, they blanket nerfed the passives. "You shouldn't have defense and offense" is a poor excuse, since sorcs can shield for defense and maintain good offense, and NBs can cloak/roll whilst maintaining high offense. Is it only heavy that should be nerfed?
FIX: Funnily enough, now with JC, those sets aren't heavy exclusive anymore, so that is now a moot point, I say return wrath and rollback constitution to the non
Blocking: Running s/b means you lose a lot of damage and sustain. (On the mag end, no fancy fury/7th, and no heavy attacks for main stat) and blocking gimps you beyond belief. Snared, no weaving, no stam regen, and the massive cost of blocking, which is barely sustainable 1v1 even on a DK at minimum cost, in outnumbered its suicide. What is the point of all that mitigation when it only mildly delays your death? Its counters went from balanced to way over the top. Dots go through block (fair) and so do many AoEs (fair) but then 3/5 classes have an unblockable CC, and things like POTL or shalks are also unblockable, and then even worse, the meta of bleeds and sloads tear it a new one, ignoring all resistances too, basically double dipping.
FIX: Make block only tick twice per sec. Being outnumbered already means a lot more pressure, it shouldn't mean increased cost too, and fix bleeds/sloads.
Healing: NGL, pretty good. Not warden or templar, but nice either way. However, bleeds/sloads outdo it by a mile. Then defile exists, all this ends up rather weakened, and with no defense to stop the attacks hitting your HP, its a slow painful demise.
FIX: Nerf defile a little, nerf sloads/bleeds
Wings: Poor poor wings. Honestly awful to use. Super expensive, low amount of reflects so it falls in nearly 1s, so many abilities ignore it, why, god knows, its only projectiles, not all abilities, not even all ranged abilities, the modern sorc has 1 reflectable ability. Beyond that, it still takes status effects through it. Absolute worst defense in game. Wardens and NBs have a better version, and everyone has old wings on the 1h/s ult. The snare removal is useless, and will continue to be useless unless it is at the very least 3s (4 would be perf imo)
FIX: This would be the "non tank route" Make wings 3 projectiles per person for 4s. Make pulse/bird/status effects reflectable. Make cripple unreflectable. Make wings drop when CC'd. The snare removal should be at least 3s.
CCs: CCs are a mix between defense and offense, The ability to control your enemies is always good for alleviating pressure, but with immunity, its easy for stamina to nearly ignore it outright, not to mention its another aspect that other classes have, everyone but templar can CC similarly, and sorc/NB can do it better. So kind of a moot point that DKs CCing makes them more defensive.
Comparisons to other similar defenses:
Wardens: Wardens do DK defense better than DK does DK defense. They have much better healing, better tankiness. 8% minor protection outdoes all of DKs passives, since spell resist is limited to spells, and the block passive is limited to blocked attacks. which is already stated, costly and limited. Then they have free passive major mending, frozen armour passive, a "talons" that also maims via chilled, and a mobile ult that gives major mending. Their shimmering beats out wings, it is a lot cheaper, can absorb bird too, and gives heroism.
Templars: Similar boat to DKs. Worse passive defense, but at least their active defense is somewhat useful this meta. Helps purge sloads, zaans, bleeds etc. Also a bit better healing.
Nightblades: Cloak is basically shimmering on roids when it isn't marked/sloaded, no dot damage, no cap on force miss "absorb", makes you invisible and untargetable (not mutually exclusive btw) so much defense, but wings needed a nerf ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Templars: Similar boat to DKs. Worse passive defense, but at least their active defense is somewhat useful this meta. Helps purge sloads, zaans, bleeds etc. Also a bit better healing.
Nightblades: Cloak is basically shimmering on roids when it isn't marked/sloaded, no dot damage, no cap on force miss "absorb", makes you invisible and untargetable (not mutually exclusive btw) so much defense, but wings needed a nerf ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
TL;DR, either revert some of the DKs old tankiness as the ZOS proclaimed tank class, or change/buff our defenses to be worth while without it, clutching on shields/roll for the mag/stam respecitively can only go so far, especially when all the other classes can too with alternate defenses or better synergy to pair with it. This doesn't mean implement all the buffs, just revert a few of the overpowered nerfs.
MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.
Best houseknight EU.
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DKs are the main PVE tank class with many skills designed for PVE tanking and crowd control. This seems to be mostly talking about PVP, where tanks serve a very different purpose.
ZOS continues to diminish DK tanking in general because that's the only way to satisfy the DK's who want to be DPS without making DK's even better PVE tanks and thus shutting out other classes that want to tank end-game content.0 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »DKs are the main PVE tank class with many skills designed for PVE tanking and crowd control. This seems to be mostly talking about PVP, where tanks serve a very different purpose.
ZOS continues to diminish DK tanking in general because that's the only way to satisfy the DK's who want to be DPS without making DK's even better PVE tanks and thus shutting out other classes that want to tank end-game content.
I mean, that is correct, but your point and mine isn't mutually exclusive. Chains for all was a fair change, though it did steal some DK flavor.
WIngs/HA/Block doesn't affect PvE DK over any other tanks. Because wings isn't really used for PvE, and HA passives/Block would be for all. Bleeds and sloads aren't a factor in PvE, nor is self healing beyond dragonsblood.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.0 -
SmellyUnlimited✭✭✭✭It seems like your argument is PvP-centric, in which case DK’s still have considerable tankiness.
Btw, who says you should be able to survive an onslaught from multiple players when solo? That’s the mentality of a lot of DK’s in Cyrodil; should be able to dish out constant damage while having exceptional mitigation. Many of the changes were meant to finally fix the 1vX, which was already ruining PvP with the permablocking tanks that could then Dragon Leap for a ton, get resources back and rinse/repeat. They sapped a lot of fun out of PvP for other classes because it all but killed the momentum of an attack, and would if anything just be a delaying tactic where you could just continually chain back players, fossilize, then block with abandon through it all.
PvE, DK tanks are STILL the preferred tank. Passive block cost reduction, skills like chains/talons to control a fight, Battle Roar to stay sustained regularly, Igneous to not only provide a massive shield to you and your team but convert Magicka to stam, and now with the Combustion passive, DK’s can actually get resources back if they are lucky enough to get a burning proc through Engulfing Flame, or, some are even starting to run Burning Embers life gain/Magicka return chance.
You first need to figure out what aspect of the game your blanket statement is really arguing for; because PvE, it’s patently incorrect, and PvP, losing some tankiness was necessary to pull some steam out of the permablock tanks, which were ubiquitous and overpowered.Edited by SmellyUnlimited on June 17, 2018 6:44PMDO. NOT. WIPE. (in game OR out!)2 -
Vanzen✭✭✭✭✭Problem with DK is that in skilled hands its a unbeatable beast that has no equivalent.
It was always like that, the best pvp players were DK, so it had to be nerfed into the ground.
On the other side its the most complicated class to play well.
To balance DK has always been a nightmare for devs I presume.Edited by Vanzen on June 18, 2018 7:19AM0 -
Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Good points but most people still fear DKs and they think that we are back when the game launched and DKs were holding 10+ people and at the same time killing them.
I just blame the playstyle. Noone thinks that tanking 10 ppl at once and killing them is fine but on the other hand if you use mobility/stealth to kite these 10 ppl and kill them then it is fine. This is so much hypocritical.Because I can!6 -
Aztlan✭✭✭✭I disagreed with you about bleeds in another thread, but I'm with you here. DKs need help in the current PvP environment.0 -
Vanzen✭✭✭✭✭I disagreed with you about bleeds in another thread, but I'm with you here. DKs need help in the current PvP environment.
Honestly ...
I ve "mained" DK for 4 years.
Am an average + pvper.
I ve cried a lot over times, but now DK are perfecly fine.
Only problems are the OPness of good NB (cloak+incap out of the blue)
And the new Rune cage madness.0 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is a bad thread.
Because you don't take magicka DK and stamina dk separated.
Magivka dk is in a very good spot but stam dk is a bit behind others staminas classes.
Saying magdk and stamdk have a worst defense than stamplar is not something right for exemple0 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I find my two DKs are the easiest to survive on in PVP. My magDK runs light armor and uses the light armor damage shield. And my stamdK runs heavy and sword and board and is built around doing heavy attacks and stunning players. I can 1vx on my stamdk and rarely run out of resources. And my magdk is extremely tanky with a shield and still has a decent shot of survival if my shield goes down.0 -
Swimguy✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »DKs are the main PVE tank class with many skills designed for PVE tanking and crowd control. This seems to be mostly talking about PVP, where tanks serve a very different purpose.
ZOS continues to diminish DK tanking in general because that's the only way to satisfy the DK's who want to be DPS without making DK's even better PVE tanks and thus shutting out other classes that want to tank end-game content.
LOL in a few weeks warden tanks will take over tanking and healing in all 4 man content just wait. OP?0 -
Swimguy✭✭✭Good points but most people still fear DKs and they think that we are back when the game launched and DKs were holding 10+ people and at the same time killing them.
I just blame the playstyle. Noone thinks that tanking 10 ppl at once and killing them is fine but on the other hand if you use mobility/stealth to kite these 10 ppl and kill them then it is fine. This is so much hypocritical.
lol if youre tanking 10 people then they all suck, its not the opness of the class. The player is good and the ones attacking him just suck.... ZOS caters to noobs to much0 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This is a bad thread.
Because you don't take magicka DK and stamina dk separated.
Magicka dk is in a very good spot but stam dk is a bit behind others staminas classes.
Saying magdk and stamdk have a worst defense than stamplar is not something right for exemple
MagDK is not in a very good spot. They are in a relative good spot. Pretty much middle because templars are currently broken (though have a better defense) and stamdk is kill.
The were nerfed heavily last patch with whip, and the Summerset buffs were either useless, or partial unnerfs. (combustion vs older roar, and frag vs igneous)
And stamplar/magplar has similar bad defense, but can deal with the bleed sload meta. If magdk defense was good, then they wouldn't run shields.
Block/tanking is the worse defense mechanism in eso as of this meta, and its pretty obvious when you look at the form proc sets and classes.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.0 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is a bad thread.
Because you don't take magicka DK and stamina dk separated.
Magicka dk is in a very good spot but stam dk is a bit behind others staminas classes.
Saying magdk and stamdk have a worst defense than stamplar is not something right for exemple
MagDK is not in a very good spot. They are in a relative good spot. Pretty much middle because templars are currently broken (though have a better defense) and stamdk is kill.
The were nerfed heavily last patch with whip, and the Summerset buffs were either useless, or partial unnerfs. (combustion vs older roar, and frag vs igneous)
And stamplar/magplar has similar bad defense, but can deal with the bleed sload meta. If magdk defense was good, then they wouldn't run shields.
Block/tanking is the worse defense mechanism in eso as of this meta, and its pretty obvious when you look at the form proc sets and classes.
I don't know why you use your magicka DK with heavy armor.
Going in light armor with 1&S + a ice staff is better (elemental drain) or even Ice staff + resto staff with healing ward for countering defile. You put 2 infused + reduc cost jewlery and put 2 damage (or debuff) sets, and the big damage you have will make your good heals better
That's how I see top dk playing, and it's not a bad defense.
mDK self healing is really strongEdited by Aedaryl on June 18, 2018 4:32PM0