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Incentivizing the roles of Tanks and Healers

Kencan333ub17_ESO
An interesting idea that can be proposed to get players/groups to include standard compositions to their dungeon teams would be that there would be a penalty to groups that deviate from the standard composition.

For example, if a group were to only consist purely of dps they would suffer a 10% penalty to loot (aka magic find), 7% for not including standard healers, and 3% for not including a tank.

Take this away from WoW, give rewards to tanks/healers specifically for choosing to tank or heal for a dungeon team (for instance a 10% increase to loot drops for tanks and a 15% increase for healers). Identify "problem" dungeons where only dps roles are required and shape rewards/penalties around them.

These numbers are rough drafts, and can be modified accordingly.

This would incentivize teams to utilize all compositions and give all players a better chance to participate in content.

Otherwise you could just force it that every dungeon run in the game has to consist of at least one player with a shield in hand and one player with a resto staff. You could force roles, but I'm not too sure if this would be a good idea.

What does the community think about these suggestions?

Btw, Zeni your game is quite the eye-catcher nowadays in terms of how it works. Just get rid of lag in PvP and balance the classes, and this game will forever be remembered in the eyes and ears of true gamers. Keep up the hard work!

Obviously, i personally believe that diversity is cool and that the fact that different dungeons require different things is cool. But, the fact that tanks and/or healers cannot experience certain content because of their role choice and because of player choices in group compositions can be quite saddening.

Perhaps, giving bonuses out to people who are willing to include tanks/healers in certain "problem" dungeons might be a good idea. So that they can at least try out certain dungeons that they would else be generally excluded from.

Here's the important part: Give teams that include a tank a 50% bonus to loot to even things out and teams that include a healer as well a 100% bonus to loot in problem dungeons that don't require either (because having i.e. something like 4 dps essentially halves the completion time and this would offset it). Modify these numbers accordingly.

Or, if this idea seems stupid maybe there's a better way to hardwire this concept into the game itself so that tanks/healers don't feel upset. Such as, by creating more overwhelming content that require a standard composition team. And leaving dungeon designs that exclude player incorporation in the dust since we already have enough dungeons that dont require tanks and/or healers as it is.
Edited by Kencan333ub17_ESO on June 13, 2018 7:28AM
Acct name: @DivinityWep

Stamblade Main: Sunderflame
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Necro: Shadoknite
  • Septimus_Magna
    Septimus_Magna
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    ZOS should address the problem and not the reaction to the problem.

    The problem is that many dungeons dont really need a healer or tank if the DDs are experienced.
    By increasing the damage of bosses and mechanics the run would be impossible without a healer or tank.
    Lately Ive been tanking with my DK but in most dungeons its way too easy.
    I can just tell the healer to focus on dmg because self-healing and sustain isnt even an issue with Vigor and Mediate.

    It could be fun to introduce rare BoP sets that only drop based on the role you play.
    Maybe a three-piece item set consisting of body, shield and weapon pieces that gives an unique bonus.



    PC - EU (AD)
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  • Tasear
    Tasear
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    ZOS should address the problem and not the reaction to the problem.

    The problem is that many dungeons dont really need a healer or tank if the DDs are experienced.
    By increasing the damage of bosses and mechanics the run would be impossible without a healer or tank.
    Lately Ive been tanking with my DK but in most dungeons its way too easy.
    I can just tell the healer to focus on dmg because self-healing and sustain isnt even an issue with Vigor and Mediate.

    It could be fun to introduce rare BoP sets that only drop based on the role you play.
    Maybe a three-piece item set consisting of body, shield and weapon pieces that gives an unique bonus.



    That's interesting thought drops based on roles.
  • Tasear
    Tasear
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    On point with topic is questions why aren't healers and tanks used as much? Is it the incoming damage the actual support they give? Maybe it's feeling of limited content? So what makes you not actually use a healer or tank on ocassion? How do feel about content offered as healer or tank? How do these roles feel different in other games?
  • efster
    efster
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    To address the problem of healers and tanks not being needed, the content needs to be designed to require them. Giving tanks and healers special rewards is a nice idea, but not when most people just 4-DPS content to save time. Punishing DPS with loot debuffs is hardly fair, considering they're the ones who do most of the work in getting the dungeons cleared. Yes, I could probably Pierce Armour something to death (provided there's no engrage mechanic), but it's gonna take me 3 hours without damage dealers. Tanks and healers are SUPPORT roles, and many damage dealers in this game just don't need the support. We can't blame or punish players for playing the game as it was designed.

    I don't think increasing boss damage is the answer, because dodge/evasion will continue to exist, as will simply getting out of the boss's attack range in time. One shot mechanics are boring and hurt tanks more in the long run, as the learning curve for newer/harder content becomes prohibitively steep and nobody wants to tank because it's too hard to do well consistently (especially if you have high ping) and is just much easier to DPS or heal.

    It's not the DPS players' fault that mechanics are designed with low DPS in mind so high DPS bypasses them and makes tanks and/or healers dead weight. I don't know enough about game design to make an intelligent suggestion for how to change this.

    That said, tanks and healers are absolutely necessary for most casual groups trying to complete vet content, let alone vet DLC content.
    AD is the best looking faction. I don't make the rules, I just enforce them.
  • BejaProphet
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    OP,

    You think fake tanks and healers are bad now? What will happen when they get bonus rewards for doing it?

    And the only way to stop it is to start saying you have to verify whether they are a tank or not. But that is nearly impossible in this game. The builds are too flexible.

    Besides that complication, including a tank (at least in theory) is mandatory for group finder. So what you are saying really ONLY applies to groups made among people who know each other. Why on earth would you want to punish my family guild if nobody wanted to play those roles while we have fun together?

    Just not an idea that fits ESO I'm afraid.
  • idk
    idk
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    Other than a taunt there is nothing in the game to define a tank. It takes only one heal to be a healer.

    The idea would not work in ESO.

    We have plenty of tanks and healers in this game so no reason to add an incentive.

    EDIT: also having drops based on roles is not a grand idea since many farm on their tank to gear their healer, etc. Also, Zos would not make such a change.
    Edited by idk on June 13, 2018 8:17PM
  • TheNightflame
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    the other issue is how things have scaled. when you look at vicp bosses having 2mil health, it's very clear that that place has become a victim to power creep and can be steamrolled now.
  • Soella
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    Sorry, but I cannot understand what problem are you trying to solve?

    Long queues for tank/healers? Not enough tank/healers? No good options to learn how to tank/heal? Something else?

    Before suggesting remedy it is nice to describe what should be improved in your opinion.

    BTW, I think it is absolutely great feature of the game that most of content does not require dedicated tanks or healers.
  • VioletVience
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    What does the community think about these suggestions?

    For now healers completly useless in 4ppl content and additional rewards never change it. Just because with 3dd you dont care about mechanics.
  • karekiz
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    Depends on group.

    I know a lot of DPS that die even with a healer in DLC dungeons. Then there are those DPS that dodge everything and DPS easily high end.

    But when pugging which are you most likely to get honestly?
  • Druid40
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    Tanks and healers get into groups much more easily than DDs. Those ideas are not needed at all.
  • Noldornir
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    Rework damage shields and you WILL needing them even in Fungal Grotto I Vet; that's the only thing allowing DDs to survive alone. Yet those shield ARE needed in Vet Trials/DLC dungeons atm and nerfing them could lead to disaster.

    It's a balance problem, very hard to fix for all the kind of contents. Thing is 750 player should only play hardest contest; a Stormproof DD can surely handle a Vet Banished all alone (let's imagine in 4) since VMa is way worse.
  • Sparr0w
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    Tasear wrote: »
    On point with topic is questions why aren't healers and tanks used as much? Is it the incoming damage the actual support they give? Maybe it's feeling of limited content? So what makes you not actually use a healer or tank on ocassion? How do feel about content offered as healer or tank? How do these roles feel different in other games?

    Ever tanked or healed thru a crap group? yeh

    If I pug I'll go on my Sorc since I can solo most dungeons & still pull moderate-high dps. Last time I pugged as tank I had to solo Valkyn for the last 500k health because all the platforms were destroyed...
    Edited by Sparr0w on June 26, 2018 7:53AM
    @Sparr0w so I get the notification
    Xbox (EU) - l Sparrow x | CP 810+
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  • dtsharples
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    It does indeed seem to be the power creep. But some things have been outright nerfed in previous patches too, most notably vWGT + vICP which aren't even a shadow of the difficulty that they were.

    We will soon have a new 'generation' of Tanks + Healers who can't do their job properly in end game, because every learning experience prior was reduced to 4 DDs'.
    There isn't a tanking or healing dummy, so people do still need to learn on-the-job.

    I think the answer is for Tanks + Healers to make the decision themselves, on if they feel comfortable swapping item sets + bar skills in order to become a more Hybrid role.
    Essentially you'll still have the combined damage of 3 DDs, but with the utility of an actual Tank + Healer should the content require it.
    Change to damaging Ultimates, damaging Undaunted Sets + secondary armour sets that increase your base damage.
    Keep your buffs and HOTs on the group, your DOTs on your enemy - leaving you plenty of time to decent DPS.




  • Merlin13KAGL
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    First, without some method of certification for a role, this would be very hard to enforce programmatically.

    Second, how would you do a 10% drop rate loss on a guaranteed boss drop? If it only concerns gold or trash items (half of which are left on corpses anyway) vs clearing a dungeon 2x as fast, which of these scenarios do you think will still win?

    There shouldn't have to be a penalty at all. The content itself should be the deciding factor, and should be balanced in such a way as to require the said roles. Find a way to make it genuinely harder without them, and there lack of presence will be felt and noticed.

    There needs to be a ratings system and a certification gauntlet. Something that shows you are capable in your role after a certain number of runs, and perhaps a 1-5 star to show relatively how capable.

    Otherwise, any fool with a S&B, a restro staff, or the ability to click an icon(s) at the top of the group finder will circumvent the system (poorly) just as they do now.

    The rating wouldn't preclude those still learning the role - it would kick in after so many runs only. The gauntlet should also provide a training grounds for players to improve their role in a safe environment, before or between live runs.
    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

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  • Drummerx04
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    Noldornir wrote: »
    Rework damage shields and you WILL needing them even in Fungal Grotto I Vet; that's the only thing allowing DDs to survive alone. Yet those shield ARE needed in Vet Trials/DLC dungeons atm and nerfing them could lead to disaster.

    It's a balance problem, very hard to fix for all the kind of contents. Thing is 750 player should only play hardest contest; a Stormproof DD can surely handle a Vet Banished all alone (let's imagine in 4) since VMa is way worse.

    I disagree that damage shields are the only reason DDs can survive in dungeons without any real support. In truth it's the ability to block and dodge at will. If damage shields got nerfed, we could just equip a self heal in place of the shield and be right back to surviving everything in pve.

    In my opinion soloing vet dungeons is in general harder than vMA because there are more adds at the same time that hit fairly hard and have more health than anything in vMA.
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  • Mancombe_Nosehair
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    As a tank myself, in my opinion the best way to get more tanks and healers is encouragement. Giving out skill points for enemies taunted or team members healed is one way to get more healers and tanks.

    Give people a reason for wanting to do those roles.
  • Tsar_Gekkou
    Tsar_Gekkou
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    Make the game teach people how to dps better so there isn't a combined 15K dps from the whole group, then people will be more willing to play tanks and healers.
    Xbox NA healer main
    vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL HM | vHoF HM | vAS+2 | vCR+3 | vBRP | vSS HM | vKA HM | vRG HM |
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  • LadyNalcarya
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    There's 2 separate issues.
    First is when you get "fake" tanks and healers, because dds are trying to get shorter queue times, and there's evidently not enough actual support characters.
    This is because the game encourages you to play as a dd. And if you're a tank, you either have to get a dps setup for solo/questing/whatever or have fun spending a minute on every mob on your way to skyshards. Its not as bad for healers, but healers are less needed in dungeons.
    This leads me to my second point. Healers are not needed in dungeons. If dds are good, they can just get some magblade instead of you and clear the dungeon faster. If they're bad, you'll have to dps for them anyway. New dungeons only enforce this meta, all damage is either easily ignored (especially if you have a petsorc or magblade in your group) or oneshots you (so a healer wouldn't help anyway.
    Also, pugging as a healer is much more risky than pugging as a dd, because a dd can carry a team (well, in most cases, dlcs are of course harder than CoA1 or something), but if you get a team of light attackers as a healer or tank, you're much more likely to be screwed.

    So in order to incentivize those roles, ZOS would have to do something about these issues.
    Edited by LadyNalcarya on July 6, 2018 12:38AM
    Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason

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