Liking story/lore and liking difficulty aren't mutually exclusive

Robo_Hobo

Just wanted to throw my 2 septims out there, or rather, drakes in this time period I suppose.

With all the threads about questing and overland difficulty about, there's always the common response to them that people seeking challenges should go do VMA or Vet trials or something, which is all well and good.

But I just want to share the perspective that at least some level of difficulty and challenge can, for people like me, help the storylines be told better, and the complete lack of it has the adverse effect. Obviously, not every quest, but when you tell stories about these big bad diabolical world-threatening antagonists, it's really jarring when you just know that they're going to be like every other enemy and get curbstomped before the fight ever gets the chance to feel engaging. Exploring and adventuring with a little sense if fear and precaution can, for us, make the overall experience more enjoyable.

I'm all for what the changes of what One Tamriel did, even deleveling the world and making quests more accessible to more people of different skill levels. More people being able to do quests is always a good thing. I don't want that to change.

I can't speak for everyone else in the mindset of wanting more difficulty in quests and overland, but whatever solution may or may not come about, I personally don't want that to make it unplayable for the casual community by any means, just an option for a more engaging experience to do the quests, however way that may be.

I just feel there's some misunderstanding that anyone who wants that, just wants to make it difficult at the expense of casuals enjoyment, and I'm sure there are some on the extreme end who want that all across the board, but like with all extremes, that's the minority.

I still haven't started Summerset myself, despite being very interested in the story and seeing how it goes, and this is one of the big reasons for it. I'm just trying to think of a short-term solution for myself to get more enjoyment out of it, once the crowds in the quest areas die down.

But yeah, just wanted to share that side of the coin.

VaranisArano

I find that the quest difficulty is exactly right when I level a new character with or without CP. I just leveled a new character through Summerset and the difficulty was right on point for me.

If I go questing on my DD with over 15k DPS, I rip through quest content like tissue paper. So I incorporate that into my role play. That character is my Dark Brotherhood Silencer, so of course she's the most lethal thing in the area!

If I go questing on my tank, my DPS is slow, steady, and I'm never in any danger of dying. Well, that character is my Vestige, who faced down the armies of Coldharbor that same slow, steady way. When my Vestige quests, she may not be the fastest fighter, but nothing the enemy throws at her is going to stop her from brining them down just like she did Molag Bal and Mannimarco.

So my answer is that if I want difficulty, I use a new character. If I want to enjoy the questing on other characters, I incorporate their DPS and fighting style into my role play.

logarifmik

As well as increasing difficulty of quest bosses and overall fights, devs should consider to make quest rewards better. Most of the time you get something like 300 drakes and some useless equipment, stuff that you can easily get killing a few mobs. So, the sole reason to do quest is lore. And yes, they start to add some furnishings and such, there also were mementos and the pet, but such rewars are quite rare, at least for now. It's weird, that you sell or deconstruct a sword, which was gifted to you by the last king of Ayleids, because there is nothing else you can do with it, right? It's useless! Why not to make it a placeable memento furnishing, which Vestige can place in his house, for example? Also, do you remember situations, when during the dialogue you are able to bribe an NPC? Why is it always 69 drakes for the god sake? It's completely nothing even for a newcomer, guys! A lot of really interesting and engagind moments during questing are ruined because of that.

ADarklore

I play ESO to relax and difficulty stresses me out, hence the reason I don't PvP or run 'end game' content. I work 12-hour shifts and the last thing I want to do is come home to face even more stress while playing a game to relax.

I'd like someone to list all the MMOs that have 'difficulty' switches to allow players to choose their own difficulty- if there even are any, I'm sure the number are extremely low and probably coded on a completely different gaming engine. Players complain about how bad the lag is, how slow the servers are, etc... but then they want a toggle to cause the game to have to calculate all the various difficulty settings for thousands of players at the same time... imagine what the severs would be like then.

Robo_Hobo

@ADarklore

I think you're overcomplicating it. Cyrodiil has battle spirit just fine, something to that effect that can be toggled onto the player at will could go a long way toward the goal. Relaxing is all well and good, and I wouldn't want that relaxing experience to be taken away from you.

DieAlteHexe

VaranisArano wrote: »

I find that the quest difficulty is exactly right when I level a new character with or without CP. I just leveled a new character through Summerset and the difficulty was right on point for me.

If I go questing on my DD with over 15k DPS, I rip through quest content like tissue paper. So I incorporate that into my role play. That character is my Dark Brotherhood Silencer, so of course she's the most lethal thing in the area!

If I go questing on my tank, my DPS is slow, steady, and I'm never in any danger of dying. Well, that character is my Vestige, who faced down the armies of Coldharbor that same slow, steady way. When my Vestige quests, she may not be the fastest fighter, but nothing the enemy throws at her is going to stop her from brining them down just like she did Molag Bal and Mannimarco.

So my answer is that if I want difficulty, I use a new character. If I want to enjoy the questing on other characters, I incorporate their DPS and fighting style into my role play.

^^^^ That.

MaleAmazon

I think you're overcomplicating it. Cyrodiil has battle spirit just fine, something to that effect that can be toggled onto the player at will could go a long way toward the goal. Relaxing is all well and good, and I wouldn't want that relaxing experience to be taken away from you.

This. ZOS has already implemented the necessary tools for changing difficulty: player debuff (battle spirit), auto-level (One Tamriel). Extra rewards (levelled gold, vet dungeons).

It really doesn´t seem like they have to climb mount Everest to implement a difficulty setting.

DieAlteHexe

Robo_Hobo wrote: »

@ADarklore

I think you're overcomplicating it. Cyrodiil has battle spirit just fine, something to that effect that can be toggled onto the player at will could go a long way toward the goal. Relaxing is all well and good, and I wouldn't want that relaxing experience to be taken away from you.

This post, your OP, is a good example of what they (Zos) are up against. There are so many "types" that play an MMO. Some types even cross-over (as in your description). To further complicate matters, there are days when I'm feeling feisty and I want to take on something a bit more difficult as well as days where I'm happy to just hit the right keys. There are so many different ways to play this game which I think is great.

I like options and I think, if their metrics show a need, that there could be some serious thought given to a toggle or some way to enable difficulty (on the fly would be great or instancing would work too). Some games have a setting where you choose what level you want to play; story mode, normal, insane and I like those as well. You set it and it stays that way until you change it. I've always supported this idea. What I will not support are those who try to insist that Overland be *changed* to be more difficult. Toggle, or some other method, absolutely. Changing it from as it is now for everyone? Absolutely not.

Everstorm

Robo_Hobo wrote: »

Obviously, not every quest, but when you tell stories about these big bad diabolical world-threatening antagonists, it's really jarring when you just know that they're going to be like every other enemy and get curbstomped before the fight ever gets the chance to feel engaging. Exploring and adventuring with a little sense if fear and precaution can, for us, make the overall experience more enjoyable.

This. What is the point of lore when there is no fear. I don't think there is a single good fantasy book where the protagonist isn't afraid of something.
I used to play Everquest. People shared horror stories of travelling through Kithicor Forest at night, getting lost and running into a swarm of undead. In that game that was certain death for most characters. Or barging into the Plane of Fear, with your guild, getting run over by the denizens and then have to ask another guild to help you retrieve the corpses that held all your gear. Risks is what made that game good.

DieAlteHexe

Everstorm wrote: »

Robo_Hobo wrote: »

Obviously, not every quest, but when you tell stories about these big bad diabolical world-threatening antagonists, it's really jarring when you just know that they're going to be like every other enemy and get curbstomped before the fight ever gets the chance to feel engaging. Exploring and adventuring with a little sense if fear and precaution can, for us, make the overall experience more enjoyable.

This. What is the point of lore when there is no fear. I don't think there is a single good fantasy book where the protagonist isn't afraid of something.
I used to play Everquest. People shared horror stories of travelling through Kithicor Forest at night, getting lost and running into a swarm of undead. In that game that was certain death for most characters. Or barging into the Plane of Fear, with your guild, getting run over by the denizens and then have to ask another guild to help you retrieve the corpses that held all your gear. Risks is what made that game good.

Guh...Kithicor. I remember hugging the zone wall there so tightly.

I guess I could counter this (and it's a valid POV) with a book example. Some folks like books like you say where there's fear and the like. It adds spice and helps keep them interested. Others prefer more exploration or biographical or cultural because they don't need any more spice or challenge. They're looking to relax and socialise, maybe explore a bit or create something.

So saying that "risk is what made that game good" is completely subjective. It was what you liked and so of course that's what made it good for you. But we're not all the same and the market sure seems to be indicating that a lot of folks aren't as down for fear, risk and challenge as there used to be. Or, and I think this plays into it as well, there are a LOT more people who are into gaming now, MMOs in particular than there were back in UO/EQ days and they weren't as willing to accept a "here's the game, like it or bugger off". It's no longer just young guys who are having the time of their lives clobbering things. It's a whole gamut of types from young guys to grannies.

Robo_Hobo

@Everstorm @DieAlteHexe

Yeah, there definitely are different types who enjoy different things in ESO. As much as I would enjoy that kind of experience you mentioned in Everquest, as fear does give me that enjoyment too (and I have similar experiences with older games I used to play), I think that would be way too much for ESO, and for good reason.

The most we can hope for is for something that doesn't hinder the casual style of gameplay, which is again, good, that's the mass majority of the playerbase and more players is better, but also because I'd want everyone to be able to enjoy the stories regardless.

In the end, as much as I might want it to be all dark souls style difficulty, ESO just simply isn't dark souls, and shouldn't try to be, but that doesn't mean ESO can't do a little more for those who want the option, for people who do enjoy more difficulty in the overall adventure, so that we're not left hanging.

DieAlteHexe

Robo_Hobo wrote: »

@Everstorm @DieAlteHexe

Yeah, there definitely are different types who enjoy different things in ESO. As much as I would enjoy that kind of experience you mentioned in Everquest, as fear does give me that enjoyment too (and I have similar experiences with older games I used to play), I think that would be way too much for ESO, and for good reason.

The most we can hope for is for something that doesn't hinder the casual style of gameplay, which is again, good, that's the mass majority of the playerbase and more players is better, but also because I'd want everyone to be able to enjoy the stories regardless.

In the end, as much as I might want it to be all dark souls style difficulty, ESO just simply isn't dark souls, and shouldn't try to be, but that doesn't mean ESO can't do a little more for those who want the option, for people who do enjoy more difficulty in the overall adventure, so that we're not left hanging.

That's an agree from me.

EvilCroc

Story must be available for wet noodles. And story is the only thing that must be available for them.
I do not want to pay gold for skillpoints/cp respec each time I want to go into dungeon from questing with my 4k dps tank or healer and vice versa.

burglar

The first thing I've always done in any MMO I start playing is going to the most advanced region/area I can and seeing what I can explore. This was the case at launch with ESO, I remember I laughed when I was able to kill a level 35 monster at level 14, I think it was a hag near evermore.

I don't think the way everything was changed is terrible, but no monsters anywhere can last a full single rotation anymore. There's also no satisfaction of killing super low level stuff.. but I do wish that there was some more challenging content in overland, as well as in delves (or do those count as overland?).

I really miss that initial hardcore journey to the first big town, though. Like going to ayan baqur in asherons call, or getting to jeuno in FFXI. For anyone out there that played those.

Someone mentioned how the industry has changed, which is true. Games are not the same as they used to be. In the past I remember everyone had to figure out how to get things done, rather than complain to the devs. I am a bit resentful towards all of these changes that have happened as I find myself not having many games to play. Although, it's all part and parcel to the advancing technology and the full on hard on for agile development.

DieAlteHexe

EvilCroc wrote: »

Story must be available for wet noodles. And story is the only thing that must be available for them.
I do not want to pay gold for skillpoints/cp respec each time I want to go into dungeon from questing with my 4k dps tank or healer and vice versa.

Wet noodles? Is this something I need to add to my sig?

Sevn

Robo_Hobo wrote: »

@ADarklore

I think you're overcomplicating it. Cyrodiil has battle spirit just fine, something to that effect that can be toggled onto the player at will could go a long way toward the goal. Relaxing is all well and good, and I wouldn't want that relaxing experience to be taken away from you.

Even if it was an option it'd have to separate the two groups (casuals-vs-tryhards) into two different instances, maybe even requires a separate server. I'm all for it though, farming in these empty zones will be a goldmine for me and like minded folks.

MaleAmazon

Even if it was an option it'd have to separate the two groups (casuals-vs-tryhards) into two different instances,

No.

That´s the point and beauty of it. It´s not like I require a separate instance every time I cast volatile armor or a boss stuns me. It would just give an optional debuff to those who want it, so they could be challenged again.

Robo_Hobo

@Sevn

Why would it require different instances/servers?

I could understand that it might require that if there were like, hard mode options of quest bosses (but maybe not even that? HM mode on vet dungeons doesn't seem to need it. Hmm.)

But I would imagine having a PvE version of Battle Spirit (with some tweaks) would be no more different than having, say, a Mundus buff, or a passive set effect from your set armor. It would only affect the damage you take and receive, and possibly other things like healing, but would have no effect on the enemies or the world itself.

If you mean because otherwise it wouldn't be enough, in that other players could still run down the quest enemies for you, then yeah, I can see how instancing would help that (I think that's always just something we're going to have to deal with ourselves), but I feel that would probably be too big a task to do, for what will arguably always be a minority of the playerbase. Plus it would probably add to the overall lagg and dc'ing of the game for everyone else, which wouldn't be nice.

But I'm not a programmer, that's just my inferences. I wouldn't be against it, but I think a lot of players would, and I don't know if it would be needed.

Lady_of_Tamarah

If I wanted hardcore game-play I would have bought a different game.

For me the game is about my love of the Elder Scrolls.

In this game i expected to farm, explore and do quests and also encounter some combat .

What I don't want is to encounter a succession extreme hardcore play that leaves me feeling exhausted and dissatisfied

Of course I know there will be combat AND I do find it challenging enough as it is = killing a boss is enough for me to deal with and just a means to the end of the quest for me.

I stay away from public dungeons and also areas for vets because I am not in it for the killing (and in any case wouldn't stand a chance in surviving...lol)

I don't know whether filters could be applied so you could choose to play in hardcore mode or not but maybe that could be a solution

Integral1900

Depending on how the game is coded on ZOS’s end it could be as simple as adding a “nerf me by 70%” calculation and hitching it up to a new loot table. Other players would be unaffected as long as it switches of in group dungeons. However that depends on the code.

For example they said in an episode of their live show years back that changing things in the base game is hard, a lot of the time they have to replace whole sections because there is simply no other way, so when they expanded the size of some of the base game dungeons they basicaly had to rebuild them from scratch. You can see where they ran into trouble, for example, the last quest in the daggerfall covenant has a bunch of harvesters that any level one charecter can one shot by just walking up to them and using a heavy attack... I should know as I tried it... this is because it’s still scaled to the way the game was at launch, basicaly one tamriel never happened to it. The same goes for many scamps in the fighters guild quests.

It’s almost certainly no coincidence that we got jewelry crafting at the same time as two handed became two slots instead of one. I hope that they can do something though because I’m a quester at heart and oneshotting the villain with my healer is getting frustrating...

EvilCroc

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

EvilCroc wrote: »

Story must be available for wet noodles. And story is the only thing that must be available for them.
I do not want to pay gold for skillpoints/cp respec each time I want to go into dungeon from questing with my 4k dps tank or healer and vice versa.

Wet noodles? Is this something I need to add to my sig?

If your average dps is lower than at least 25k - you really should.

Robo_Hobo

@Integral1900

Hehe, I remember those harvesters. I also remember them when I was super afraid of them in that dungeon before One Tamriel.

Yeah, I can only guess at how it's coded. I don't know what kind of extras would be needed to give a little incentive to use that hard-mode for those who need it (I'd just use it even if there were no bonus to it) If I were to suggest anything, I'd keep it small, and limited to what we know they can easily implement, like extra xp on enemy kills to make up for killing them slower, as well as maybe 10% more gold from enemy kills. Something small enough that no one would feel left out if they don't use it, and don't feel obliged to use it, but enough to help those who would use it feel like "eh, why not, it's still extra gold/xp"

Sevn

Robo_Hobo wrote: »

@Sevn

Why would it require different instances/servers?

I could understand that it might require that if there were like, hard mode options of quest bosses (but maybe not even that? HM mode on vet dungeons doesn't seem to need it. Hmm.)

But I would imagine having a PvE version of Battle Spirit (with some tweaks) would be no more different than having, say, a Mundus buff, or a passive set effect from your set armor. It would only affect the damage you take and receive, and possibly other things like healing, but would have no effect on the enemies or the world itself.

If you mean because otherwise it wouldn't be enough, in that other players could still run down the quest enemies for you, then yeah, I can see how instancing would help that (I think that's always just something we're going to have to deal with ourselves), but I feel that would probably be too big a task to do, for what will arguably always be a minority of the playerbase. Plus it would probably add to the overall lagg and dc'ing of the game for everyone else, which wouldn't be nice.

But I'm not a programmer, that's just my inferences. I wouldn't be against it, but I think a lot of players would, and I don't know if it would be needed.

Players can already debuff themselves to dish out lower damage and receive higher but they don't. A simple debuff wouldn't be enough, otherwise these type of threads wouldn't continually pop up.

Everstorm

Lady_of_Tamarah wrote: »

What I don't want is to encounter a succession extreme hardcore play that leaves me feeling exhausted and dissatisfied

Of course I know there will be combat AND I do find it challenging enough as it is = killing a boss is enough for me to deal with and just a means to the end of the quest for me.

I stay away from public dungeons and also areas for vets because I am not in it for the killing (and in any case wouldn't stand a chance in surviving...lol)

I don't want hardcore mode either. I do want to feel at least a tiny bit of apprehension when turning a blind corner. Knowing in advance that there will be nothing there to actually challenge me makes it all a bit pointless. And even if for some reason you manage to die it's just a ten second setback. Death being meaningless makes everything meaningless.

PS: I don't know what lvl/cp you're at but public dungeons aren't all that difficult. Try them sometime, you might just like it. I would be quite content if that was the base difficulty of the game.

DieAlteHexe

EvilCroc wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

EvilCroc wrote: »

Story must be available for wet noodles. And story is the only thing that must be available for them.
I do not want to pay gold for skillpoints/cp respec each time I want to go into dungeon from questing with my 4k dps tank or healer and vice versa.

Wet noodles? Is this something I need to add to my sig?

If your average dps is lower than at least 25k - you really should.

Hmm, never bothered to check it. I go by the "if they fall over dead before I do, I'm good" way of thinking.

Cadbury

EvilCroc wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

EvilCroc wrote: »

Story must be available for wet noodles. And story is the only thing that must be available for them.
I do not want to pay gold for skillpoints/cp respec each time I want to go into dungeon from questing with my 4k dps tank or healer and vice versa.

Wet noodles? Is this something I need to add to my sig?

If your average dps is lower than at least 25k - you really should.

Is wet noodle the G-rated version of a scrub?

DieAlteHexe

Cadbury wrote: »

EvilCroc wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

EvilCroc wrote: »

Story must be available for wet noodles. And story is the only thing that must be available for them.
I do not want to pay gold for skillpoints/cp respec each time I want to go into dungeon from questing with my 4k dps tank or healer and vice versa.

Wet noodles? Is this something I need to add to my sig?

If your average dps is lower than at least 25k - you really should.

Is wet noodle the G-rated version of a scrub?

Ah that one I'm familiar with having been called that before...but not in this game, at least not yet.

Cadbury

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

Cadbury wrote: »

EvilCroc wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

EvilCroc wrote: »

Story must be available for wet noodles. And story is the only thing that must be available for them.
I do not want to pay gold for skillpoints/cp respec each time I want to go into dungeon from questing with my 4k dps tank or healer and vice versa.

Wet noodles? Is this something I need to add to my sig?

If your average dps is lower than at least 25k - you really should.

Is wet noodle the G-rated version of a scrub?

Ah that one I'm familiar with having been called that before...but not in this game, at least not yet.

I've been called many...colorful words over the years in many different MMO games. If someone called me a wet noodle or scrub, I'd consider it both cute and quaint.

MLGProPlayer

Bingo. I play an RPG for the story telling.

Extremely easy content breaks immersion with that story. When Vanus, the most powerful mage in the world, or even a god like Vivec, tells me to be careful with a foe and I kill that foe in 2 seconds, does that mean my character is the most powerful being in existence?

MLGProPlayer

VaranisArano wrote: »

I find that the quest difficulty is exactly right when I level a new character with or without CP. I just leveled a new character through Summerset and the difficulty was right on point for me.

If I go questing on my DD with over 15k DPS, I rip through quest content like tissue paper. So I incorporate that into my role play. That character is my Dark Brotherhood Silencer, so of course she's the most lethal thing in the area!

If I go questing on my tank, my DPS is slow, steady, and I'm never in any danger of dying. Well, that character is my Vestige, who faced down the armies of Coldharbor that same slow, steady way. When my Vestige quests, she may not be the fastest fighter, but nothing the enemy throws at her is going to stop her from brining them down just like she did Molag Bal and Mannimarco.

So my answer is that if I want difficulty, I use a new character. If I want to enjoy the questing on other characters, I incorporate their DPS and fighting style into my role play.

This is also part of the problem. The scaling isn't properly tuned.

Playing through the game on a new character is fine in terms of difficulty. I died multiple times levelling a character in One Tamriel. Problems arise whdn you're playing an expansion or DLC on a fully levelled character.

DieAlteHexe

Cadbury wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

Cadbury wrote: »

EvilCroc wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

EvilCroc wrote: »

Story must be available for wet noodles. And story is the only thing that must be available for them.
I do not want to pay gold for skillpoints/cp respec each time I want to go into dungeon from questing with my 4k dps tank or healer and vice versa.

Wet noodles? Is this something I need to add to my sig?

If your average dps is lower than at least 25k - you really should.

Is wet noodle the G-rated version of a scrub?

Ah that one I'm familiar with having been called that before...but not in this game, at least not yet.

I've been called many...colorful words over the years in many different MMO games. If someone called me a wet noodle or scrub, I'd consider it both cute and quaint.

*nod* Yeah, neither are particularly ire inspiring especially if they're (by definition) true. Heh