we need more middle ground content

ezio45

everything is either too easy or only for top tier players

VaranisArano

I'd say that most normal dungeons and easier vet dungeons count as middle ground content, being as how you'll need a build to complete them effectively, but you dont need meta gear or top DPS to complete them.

Narvuntien

I like normal trails as middle ground content.

Normal dungeons are way too easy... the easier vet dungeons perhaps count but it always seems they are too easy until the final boss...

What do I do if I do have meta... ish gear, no DLC and 300 ping?

Doctordarkspawn

People like to excuse it away but it's allways been a problem.

We need a medium difficulty tier. We need a rehaul of the difficulty and have for a while.

MLGProPlayer

Normal trials and vet level I/no level dungeons are your medium difficulty.

Gythral

Narvuntien wrote: »

I like normal trails as middle ground content.

Normal dungeons are way too easy... the easier vet dungeons perhaps count but it always seems they are too easy until the final boss...

What do I do if I do have meta... ish gear, no DLC and 300 ping?

Move to somewhere connected to the outside world

300ms ping I can only assume Aussie & no MMO is going to be brilliant from there

(I really wish that wasnt the case but numbers and poor ISPs always seem to win)

AuldWolf

Another effort to reword this? What's this, now, the sixteenth thread this month?

Difficulty is subjective. The fact is is that the majority of people prefer things how they are. For those who want higher difficulty than what is commonly available, you have dungeons, trials, and vets. There doesn't need to be a change, nothing needs to happen. The game is balanced perfectly for its available demographics.

Also, fact: 95~ per cent of the playerbase never even touches end-game. Adding more difficulty to anything just results in more content people won't ever play, which means less money for ZOS, which means a less health game overall.

(Edited for clarity.)
 

nihirisutou

What does City of Ash II count as?

karekiz

As a player who came in post SoTH DLC my progression was:

Normal dungeons as I leveled to 50 -> Classic easy Vet <All dungeons are vet from now on> -> Harder vet content + HM <Classic> -> DLC non HM clears -> Working on clearing every DLC on HM <Need Bloodroot/Fangs lair/scale caller left>.

It's fine progression I felt. People might hit a cap around classic vet, but honestly normal DLC dungeons would be where they should be going into and doing for mid tier content. Normal trials are sometimes too easy as its far far easier to be carried in a normal trial then a 4 man dungeon.

klowdy1

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'd say that most normal dungeons and easier vet dungeons count as middle ground content, being as how you'll need a build to complete them effectively, but you dont need meta gear or top DPS to complete them.

That WOULD be the middle ground, and he is asking for more, since what you are referring to has been in the game since launch, and all that gets added are the extremes.

lillybit

The trouble with adding middle ground content is that there isn't really a middle for it to fit in to.

I think there's a pretty good progression of difficulty without any noticeable gaps. Overland lead on nicely to normal dungeons; by the time you reach normal DLC dungeons and trials you have the beginning of an understanding of mechanics that set you up nicely for the easier vet dungeons. There's a little gap between the harder vet II and vet DLC dungeons but not enough to shoehorn in another level of difficulty. That lead into vet trials which again I think have a steady progression of difficulty which, i dont think it's unfair to say, takes it up far out of the reach of most players.

Added to that you have things like soloing world bosses and dungeons and of course maelstrom and dragonstar arenas. And skin runs. I'm sure I've missed lots too!

I'm not sure where any extra content would fit in, difficulty wise. You can almost always make content fit the difficulty you want.

Aebaradath

nihirisutou wrote: »

What does City of Ash II count as?

I'd say middle ground.

runicnomad

I would like to see a difficulty level added. Just like a single player game.
And they could re-tool content based on that and we could be instanced into whatever difficulty people choose.

As it is the content is a joke easy or absurd hard mode to force a group.

MLGProPlayer

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

nihirisutou wrote: »

What does City of Ash II count as?

I'd say middle ground.

Level II vet dungeons are pretty tough. You should be at least CP 160 and know basic game mechanics.

Level I/no level are not though (I'd count those as "medium" difficulty).

This is all on vet. Normal is easy for all dungeons.

HeathenDeacon

karekiz wrote: »

As a player who came in post SoTH DLC my progression was:

Normal dungeons as I leveled to 50 -> Classic easy Vet <All dungeons are vet from now on> -> Harder vet content + HM <Classic> -> DLC non HM clears -> Working on clearing every DLC on HM <Need Bloodroot/Fangs lair/scale caller left>.

It's fine progression I felt. People might hit a cap around classic vet, but honestly normal DLC dungeons would be where they should be going into and doing for mid tier content. Normal trials are sometimes too easy as its far far easier to be carried in a normal trial then a 4 man dungeon.

this 100%

especially the part about "might hit a cap around classic vet."
that is exactly where the gap is.
i think the jumps from coa2 then progressively each vet dlc dungeon are a little too spread out.

DanteYoda

I love all these max CP people saying everything is so easy..

As a level 30 magblade i had to get help in root sunder.. Honestly remove your CPs and the game would be awesome for you people..

Zardayne

AuldWolf wrote: »

Another effort to reword this? What's this, now, the sixteenth thread this month?

Difficulty is subjective. The fact is is that the majority of people prefer things how they are. For those who want higher difficulty than what is commonly available, you have dungeons, trials, and vets. There doesn't need to be a change, nothing needs to happen. The game is balanced perfectly for its available demographics.

Also, fact: 95~ per cent of the playerbase never even touches end-game. Adding more difficulty to anything just results in more content people won't ever play, which means less money for ZOS, which means a less health game overall.

(Edited for clarity.)
 

You say that like it's a landslide majority who prefer the things they are. I love the words "facts" and "The game is balanced perfectly for its available demographics." I'd almost think you work for Zenimax if I didn't already know better. The poll yesterday showed only a 10% difference. I think that's pretty tight and a whole lot closer than the against crowd would have ever lead you to believe. Perhaps it wouldn't hurt for ZOS to at least take a look at some areas where difficulty could be slightly increased without hurting anyone.

Here's that poll in case you forgot about it.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416840/would-you-like-overland-content-difficulty-increased/p1

LeagueTroll

Middle ground content is called craglorn vet

Kamatsu

Zardayne wrote: »

AuldWolf wrote: »

Another effort to reword this? What's this, now, the sixteenth thread this month?

Difficulty is subjective. The fact is is that the majority of people prefer things how they are. For those who want higher difficulty than what is commonly available, you have dungeons, trials, and vets. There doesn't need to be a change, nothing needs to happen. The game is balanced perfectly for its available demographics.

Also, fact: 95~ per cent of the playerbase never even touches end-game. Adding more difficulty to anything just results in more content people won't ever play, which means less money for ZOS, which means a less health game overall.

(Edited for clarity.)
 

You say that like it's a landslide majority who prefer the things they are. I love the words "facts" and "The game is balanced perfectly for its available demographics." I'd almost think you work for Zenimax if I didn't already know better. The poll yesterday showed only a 10% difference. I think that's pretty tight and a whole lot closer than the against crowd would have ever lead you to believe. Perhaps it wouldn't hurt for ZOS to at least take a look at some areas where difficulty could be slightly increased without hurting anyone.

Here's that poll in case you forgot about it.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416840/would-you-like-overland-content-difficulty-increased/p1

Want some facts?

- Forums only represent ~15% of a games player base.
- Forums represent the more 'emotionally attached' playerbase, which is usually the hardcore, lore buffs and such.
- Polls on these forums do not represent the attitudes of the playerbase as a whole.

1. Many MMO's have over time come out and stated that only 12-15% of their playerbase at any one time ever visit's their site, games forums, etc. Games such as STO, WoW, and LotRO have all stated this.
1a. Based upon experience & insider knowledge of active player numbers in GW1, I can tell you that the # of ppl active on the biggest unofficial official forum (GW1 had no official forums) matches this 12-15% rate.

2. Most players don't care about min/maxing, builds, strats, guides, community websites, etc. They never go looking for builds, info guides, strats, etc.... they log in and play with whatever they feel works for them.

3. World of Warcraft official forums for years have been dominated by raiders and hardcore players, the PvP players, etc. If you went by the official forums between 2005-2012 you'd believe the vast majority of the game was dedicated to endgame raiding with the post's, threads, forum polls, etc suggesting that.
3a. Fact is endgame raiding was a tiny portion of the playerbase, regardless of what the forums suggested. WoW dev's confirmed on the old WoW forums that olny 6-7% of the playerbase had ever set foot in a raid, 4-5% had completed at least the bottom tier of raids, 1-2% had reached the top tier raids, and less than 0.5% had completed it.

So no, I'm sorry... just because an online forum poll shows a high % of players wanting one thing, doesn't equate to similar level's of interest in the whole active player base. History in virtually every other MMO & their official & unofficial forums reflects this as fact.

---

And here's some ESO facts:

- Craglorn started out as group-focused. It failed and got changed to be able to be soloed.
- Silver & Gold map's used to be "difficult" veteran area's. These area's were hated by the majority of players.
- One Tamerial removed Silver & Gold veteran difficulty status because they were not being played. People were either playing alts or leaving the game.

You just need to look at eSO's own history to see the fact that the vast majority of it's playerbase does NOT want or like challenging content. You just need to look at the fact that ZOS has had to nerf and/or remove most challenging content in the game over it's lifetime.

Game companies do NOT do this unless their is a reason - and bleeding playerbase due to high numbers of people leaving due to the content being too hard for them is usually #1 reason in MMO's that have difficulty walls in place.

Tandor

The "middle" content tends to be concentrated in dungeons and trials, and these tend to be added over time through DLCs and chapters. I wonder if the reason why some of the players asking for overland content to be increased in difficulty so as to become the "middle" content do so is that they choose not to subscribe or buy the DLCs and chapters? Perhaps they don't just want more "middle" content, they want it in the base game so they don't have to pay for it.

smacky

nihirisutou wrote: »

What does City of Ash II count as?

At CP620 - Normal is easy in a PUG group as I experienced the other day.

On Vet, you want an organised group, and then I would put it in the middle ground content.

I kinda laugh at all the comments that tell us Aussies (and Kiwis) to move somewhere better or get better internet.
I finished Vet Scalecaller as DPS with a Kiwi Tanking and we finished it in less than 2 hours and we both had 340+ ping during the entire dungeon.

Communication and working together is key. The ping means we can't Animation Cancel even 10% of the time, so it's not worth bothering with. Sure we lose some DPS, and in dungeons like SCP, but communication and planning go a long way to alleviate it.

Iphoites

Kamatsu wrote: »

2. Most players don't care about min/maxing, builds, strats, guides, community websites, etc. They never go looking for builds, info guides, strats, etc.... they log in and play with whatever they feel works for them.


- Craglorn started out as group-focused. It failed and got changed to be able to be soloed.
- Silver & Gold map's used to be "difficult" veteran area's. These area's were hated by the majority of players.
- One Tamerial removed Silver & Gold veteran difficulty status because they were not being played. People were either playing alts or leaving the game.

Yes, most players don't care or they just don't understand how this game works. Most people playing (the beginners) are somewhat knowledgable about MMOs and that's pretty much where everything begins going downhill because they think they can just do the highest level content they can(dungeons, vet dungeons, publics, whatever) and grab the `purple quality` items, get whatever skills they can in the skill trees and choose the *strongest looking one* and spam it. Because it's what it's like in other MMOs; level up, use the new skills the game gives you(not you choose), use a 3 skill rotation and grab gear from the most difficult content you can do because the items you'll get are far superior.

For serious players, this is actually what makes the game really difficult right now. Have you never encountered a party of high CP players with little to no understanding of the game and wiped several times at the easiest fights? THAT is the middle ground. Your having high/max cp and perfected your gameplay actually is quite uncommon. Most content still is difficult, even challenging for most players.

Btw, about the Silver&Gold maps... I think it's good to have areas like that, that are really difficult and maybe a bit more rewarding than usual. The problem with that system was it was overwhelmingly tedious and you HAD TO do those to progress(to get veteran levels). Honestly, I had quit as well after Veteran 7 or so because questing all day and doing every single thing on every map to get some xp was absolutely boring. Because people expected to get into the end-game after they were done with their own alliance and what followed was simply a horrible grind.

smacky

Iphoites wrote: »

Kamatsu wrote: »

Btw, about the Silver&Gold maps... I think it's good to have areas like that, that are really difficult and maybe a bit more rewarding than usual. The problem with that system was it was overwhelmingly tedious and you HAD TO do those to progress(to get veteran levels). Honestly, I had quit as well after Veteran 7 or so because questing all day and doing every single thing on every map to get some xp was absolutely boring. Because people expected to get into the end-game after they were done with their own alliance and what followed was simply a horrible grind.

Just curious, but wouldn't vMA / vDSA cover this realistically?

nihirisutou

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

nihirisutou wrote: »

What does City of Ash II count as?

I'd say middle ground.

Level II vet dungeons are pretty tough. You should be at least CP 160 and know basic game mechanics.

Level I/no level are not though (I'd count those as "medium" difficulty).

This is all on vet. Normal is easy for all dungeons.

Well I personally love this Dungeon. It's not a cake walk (without the right team) and its challenge is enjoyable.

Unlike Zaan, where I *** myself every time the poison AoE's are about to spawn or when Domihaus yells "Grovel" and I am nowhere near a pillar.

Iphoites

@smacky did u mean to quote me? and what do you refer to by `this` I'll still reply considering you're saying vMA/vDSA is the middle ground; I do not think they are. I know many good players that haven't done and/or won't even bother doing any Maelstrom at all.

MerlinPendragon

Overland content needs a boost in difficulty.

Rawkan

DanteYoda wrote: »

I love all these max CP people saying everything is so easy..

As a level 30 magblade i had to get help in root sunder.. Honestly remove your CPs and the game would be awesome for you people..

Most people have been high CP for so long that they've forgotten, me included. It's a little sad.

martinhpb16_ESO

I agree with the OP.

Normal dungeons dont count as middle ground to me they are easymode.

I can mostly solo normal dungeons except end bosses. I did a normal mode dungeon on a crafting mule with sub standard gear and without really knowing the class at all. I was shocked how it was even incredibly easy on that toon.

I am not a regular vet mode trials player.

Overland content is so easy that npc are just annoying flies to be swatted away.

anitajoneb17_ESO

klowdy1 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'd say that most normal dungeons and easier vet dungeons count as middle ground content, being as how you'll need a build to complete them effectively, but you dont need meta gear or top DPS to complete them.

That WOULD be the middle ground, and he is asking for more, since what you are referring to has been in the game since launch, and all that gets added are the extremes.

^^THIS^^

We "middle-tier" players are condemned to replay the same things we've been playing for FOUR YEARS. While easy has become unenjoyably easier and harder has become unplayably harder.
We need middle difficulty in new content.

Xuhora

AuldWolf wrote: »

Another effort to reword this? What's this, now, the sixteenth thread this month?

Difficulty is subjective. The fact is is that the majority of people prefer things how they are. For those who want higher difficulty than what is commonly available, you have dungeons, trials, and vets. There doesn't need to be a change, nothing needs to happen. The game is balanced perfectly for its available demographics.

Also, fact: 95~ per cent of the playerbase never even touches end-game. Adding more difficulty to anything just results in more content people won't ever play, which means less money for ZOS, which means a less health game overall.

(Edited for clarity.)
 

Source?

Vaoh

Overland content, Public Dungeons, World Bosses, Dark Anchors, Abyssal Geysers, Normal Dungeons, Vet Dungeons, Vet HM dungeon challenges, Normal and Veteran Dragonstar Arena, Normal and Veteran Maelstrom Arena, Normal Trials, Normal HM challenge (for some trials), Vet Trials, Vet Trial HM challenges....

There’s a lot of different difficulties. What difficulty are you aiming for in particular?

The only thing that’s missing atm is what was once in the game but taken away with One Tamriel, which were true Veteran versions of overland zones.