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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8235739/
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Queen Ayrenn's Death (Lore)?
Night_Wolf2112
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Reading all the recent post about AD and Thalmor and the like.... I may have missed it, QUESTION... is there a lore book out there about the death of our beloved Queen? I would love to read the story!
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Cadbury✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'd tell you but it's spoilers for the Underworld series."If a person is truly desirous of something, perhaps being set on fire does not seem so bad."21 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The final quest of Reapers March offers a hypothetical look at the future of the Dominion had you the Vestige not intervened.since Ayrenn never really settled matters with her own people and the khajiit were weak without a Mane, the dominion shatters and the Altmer turn against her. She tries to use artifacts to control people, but battlereeve Urcelmo betrays and fatally wounds her.
As for her canon death, I don't think there's any hints in game.Edited by VaranisArano on June 2, 2018 2:41PM3 -
Geroken777✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »The final quest of Reapers March offers a hypothetical look at the future of the Dominion had you the Vestige not intervened.since Ayrenn never really settled matters with her own people and the khajiit were weak without a Mane, the dominion shatters and the Altmer turn against her. She tries to use artifacts to control people, but battlereeve Urcelmo betrays and fatally wounds her.
As for her canon death, I don't think there's any hints in game.
Suits her right
The self-righteous shall choke on their sanctimony.5 -
Rosveen✭✭✭✭✭
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That is correct. There is no mention about the events of ESO in the previous games.I'm pretty sure queen wasn't in lore until ESO.1 -
lygerseye✭✭✭✭✭
I believe one of the prevailing theories is that the events in ESO take place during a Dragon Break, so not only is history recorded inconsistently, it’s also incomplete.
In other words, nothing matters! LOL3 -
xeNNNNN✭✭✭✭✭
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I believe one of the prevailing theories is that the events in ESO take place during a Dragon Break, so not only is history recorded inconsistently, it’s also incomplete.
In other words, nothing matters! LOL
That theory is mostly coming from people who don't want the stories in this game to be cannon. Its a rather biased theory and considering the psijic questline (not the summerset story) its incorrect regardless.Ah, e-communities - the "pinnacle" of the internet............yeah, right.14 -
lygerseye✭✭✭✭✭
I believe one of the prevailing theories is that the events in ESO take place during a Dragon Break, so not only is history recorded inconsistently, it’s also incomplete.
In other words, nothing matters! LOL
That theory is mostly coming from people who don't want the stories in this game to be cannon. Its a rather biased theory and considering the psijic questline (not the summerset story) its incorrect regardless.
Dragon Breaks are found throughout ES lore, not just ESO. Nothing to do with people wanting the game to be canon or not. It wasn’t created just for this game. Personally, I like the idea of the Dragon Break, and I DO want it all to be canon.3 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
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I believe one of the prevailing theories is that the events in ESO take place during a Dragon Break, so not only is history recorded inconsistently, it’s also incomplete.
In other words, nothing matters! LOL
That theory is mostly coming from people who don't want the stories in this game to be cannon. Its a rather biased theory and considering the psijic questline (not the summerset story) its incorrect regardless.
Dragon Breaks are found throughout ES lore, not just ESO. Nothing to do with people wanting the game to be canon or not. It wasn’t created just for this game. Personally, I like the idea of the Dragon Break, and I DO want it all to be canon.
Kinda hard to have the 3 alliances all controlling cyrodill to be canon, unless zos pulls a fast one and states that imperial legions loyal to the empire (and not to daedra or molag bal) managed to defeat the 3 alliances, the rogue legions and the daedra at the same time.Edited by JobooAGS on June 2, 2018 3:52PM1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
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That's not entirely true. The Impergum is mentioned in previous lore. Additionally, the first Aldmeri Dominion (the one from ESO) was mentioned as far back as 2005. So it's not completely out of left field. That said, Ayrenn, Jorunn, and Emeric didn't show up before ESO. Also, in spite of being fairly significant, historically, Varen didn't get a nod either.2 -
lygerseye✭✭✭✭✭
I believe one of the prevailing theories is that the events in ESO take place during a Dragon Break, so not only is history recorded inconsistently, it’s also incomplete.
In other words, nothing matters! LOL
That theory is mostly coming from people who don't want the stories in this game to be cannon. Its a rather biased theory and considering the psijic questline (not the summerset story) its incorrect regardless.
Dragon Breaks are found throughout ES lore, not just ESO. Nothing to do with people wanting the game to be canon or not. It wasn’t created just for this game. Personally, I like the idea of the Dragon Break, and I DO want it all to be canon.
Kinda hard to have the 3 alliances all controlling cyrodill to be canon, unless zos pulls a fast one and states that imperial legions loyal to the empire (and not to daedra or molag bal) managed to defeat the 3 alliances, the rogue legions and the daedra at the same time.
That’s part of the effect of a Dragon Break. Contradictory events are allowed to happen. From a writer’s perspective, it washes away the problem of inconsistencies from multiple lore authors. But when you take it at face value, it means they can do all sorts of shite and get away with it. :-)3 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
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I believe one of the prevailing theories is that the events in ESO take place during a Dragon Break, so not only is history recorded inconsistently, it’s also incomplete.
In other words, nothing matters! LOL
That theory is mostly coming from people who don't want the stories in this game to be cannon. Its a rather biased theory and considering the psijic questline (not the summerset story) its incorrect regardless.
Dragon Breaks are found throughout ES lore, not just ESO. Nothing to do with people wanting the game to be canon or not. It wasn’t created just for this game. Personally, I like the idea of the Dragon Break, and I DO want it all to be canon.
Kinda hard to have the 3 alliances all controlling cyrodill to be canon, unless zos pulls a fast one and states that imperial legions loyal to the empire (and not to daedra or molag bal) managed to defeat the 3 alliances, the rogue legions and the daedra at the same time.
That’s part of the effect of a Dragon Break. Contradictory events are allowed to happen. From a writer’s perspective, it washes away the problem of inconsistencies from multiple lore authors. But when you take it at face value, it means they can do all sorts of shite and get away with it. :-)
Hmm.. so 3 emperors/empresses...0 -
xeNNNNN✭✭✭✭✭
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I believe one of the prevailing theories is that the events in ESO take place during a Dragon Break, so not only is history recorded inconsistently, it’s also incomplete.
In other words, nothing matters! LOL
That theory is mostly coming from people who don't want the stories in this game to be cannon. Its a rather biased theory and considering the psijic questline (not the summerset story) its incorrect regardless.
Dragon Breaks are found throughout ES lore, not just ESO. Nothing to do with people wanting the game to be canon or not. It wasn’t created just for this game. Personally, I like the idea of the Dragon Break, and I DO want it all to be canon.
I wasn't suggesting they weren't and I am fully aware that dragon breaks are apart of the lore, ive played since arena for christ sake but theres no indication that there is currently a dragon break other than the fact the game takes place long before the other elder scroll games and there was virtually no reference too it which is where the inconsistency of the history being recorded argument comes in but Its a little bit of a thin theory.
The reason I referenced the psijic story was purely because of the augur. After all, he would know.Edited by xeNNNNN on June 2, 2018 4:00PMAh, e-communities - the "pinnacle" of the internet............yeah, right.0 -
DuskMarine✭✭✭✭✭
✭Night_Wolf2112 wrote: »Reading all the recent post about AD and Thalmor and the like.... I may have missed it, QUESTION... is there a lore book out there about the death of our beloved Queen? I would love to read the story!
she lived out her entire life span but the aldmeri didnt hold that throne forever cause the septims should be coming at some point in the near future.0 -
lygerseye✭✭✭✭✭
I believe one of the prevailing theories is that the events in ESO take place during a Dragon Break, so not only is history recorded inconsistently, it’s also incomplete.
In other words, nothing matters! LOL
That theory is mostly coming from people who don't want the stories in this game to be cannon. Its a rather biased theory and considering the psijic questline (not the summerset story) its incorrect regardless.
Dragon Breaks are found throughout ES lore, not just ESO. Nothing to do with people wanting the game to be canon or not. It wasn’t created just for this game. Personally, I like the idea of the Dragon Break, and I DO want it all to be canon.
I wasn't suggesting they weren't and I am fully aware that dragon breaks are apart of the lore, ive played since arena for christ sake but theres no indication that there is currently a dragon break other than the fact the game takes place long before the other elder scroll games and there was virtually no reference too it. Its a little bit of a thin theory.
The reason I referenced the psijic story was purely because of the augur. After all, he would know.
Hmm... You just reminded me that someone else made a post detailing a lot of this out, including some of the evidence pointing to a DB. It certainly helps explain why there are thousands of other Vestiges running around on my screen when I know I’m the one who defeated Molag Bal.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/350805/why-is-everyone-so-upset-eso-takes-place-duing-a-a-dragon-break-it-wont-effect-tes6-relax
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xeNNNNN✭✭✭✭✭
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I believe one of the prevailing theories is that the events in ESO take place during a Dragon Break, so not only is history recorded inconsistently, it’s also incomplete.
In other words, nothing matters! LOL
That theory is mostly coming from people who don't want the stories in this game to be cannon. Its a rather biased theory and considering the psijic questline (not the summerset story) its incorrect regardless.
Dragon Breaks are found throughout ES lore, not just ESO. Nothing to do with people wanting the game to be canon or not. It wasn’t created just for this game. Personally, I like the idea of the Dragon Break, and I DO want it all to be canon.
I wasn't suggesting they weren't and I am fully aware that dragon breaks are apart of the lore, ive played since arena for christ sake but theres no indication that there is currently a dragon break other than the fact the game takes place long before the other elder scroll games and there was virtually no reference too it. Its a little bit of a thin theory.
The reason I referenced the psijic story was purely because of the augur. After all, he would know.
Hmm... You just reminded me that someone else made a post detailing a lot of this out, including some of the evidence pointing to a DB. It certainly helps explain why there are thousands of other Vestiges running around on my screen when I know I’m the one who defeated Molag Bal.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/350805/why-is-everyone-so-upset-eso-takes-place-duing-a-a-dragon-break-it-wont-effect-tes6-relax
Yep im aware of this thread.
My issue with it though is honestly - Retcons. We have no idea how much or how little of the lore is and isn't anymore these days simply because nobody comes out and says yes and no consistantly. For example; there is a thread or well was a thread about half a year to a year ago about the arcturian heresey and how the author of the heresey wanted to revisit it because it was bad writing.
I am not against dragon breaks being a reason for inconsistencies and contradictions in the lore but its also a very real possibility that bethesda was just sloppy. Explaining it away through a dragon break feels kind of well..."cheap".Ah, e-communities - the "pinnacle" of the internet............yeah, right.0 -
Rosveen✭✭✭✭✭
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These are only mentions in the broadest possible strokes, nothing specific enough to be a clear reference to the Three Banners War or the Planemeld. We knew it was a time of strife and short-lived emperors, that's pretty much it.starkerealm wrote: »
That's not entirely true. The Impergum is mentioned in previous lore. Additionally, the first Aldmeri Dominion (the one from ESO) was mentioned as far back as 2005. So it's not completely out of left field. That said, Ayrenn, Jorunn, and Emeric didn't show up before ESO. Also, in spite of being fairly significant, historically, Varen didn't get a nod either.
The original Aldmeri Dominion described in the Pocket Guides was retconned with ESO's release and became the second dominion, 250 years after Ayrenn. So the idea was mentioned, but not quite the way it actually happened in ESO.Edited by Rosveen on June 2, 2018 6:06PM0 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »
Cite one in game reference pre-2014.
In game ? Pre-2014 ? Since ESO was released in 2014, that would not be possible.
Kirkbride included her in his works prior to ESO, and Bethesda published lore about her before ESO too.
Ayrenn wasn't created for the sake of ESO, she was incorporated into ESO.
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heaven13✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I think @starkerealm meant a game other than ESO where Ayrenn was ever mentioned. Not ESO specifically since the whole game has references to Ayrenn.PC/NAMountain God | Leave No Bone Unbroken | Apex Predator | Pure Lunacy | Depths Defier | No Rest for the Wicked | In Defiance of DeathMeet my characters :
Defanged the Devourer | Nature's Wrath | Relentless Raider | True Genius | Bane of Thorns | Subterranean Smasher | Ardent Bibliophile
vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vDSA | vMoL HM | vHoF HM | vAS+2 | vCR+2 | vBRP | vSS HM | vKA | vRGIT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE THEY'RE ALL THE SAME NOW, THANKS ZOS0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »
Cite one in game reference pre-2014.
In game ? Pre-2014 ? Since ESO was released in 2014, that would not be possible.
Kirkbride included her in his works prior to ESO, and Bethesda published lore about her before ESO too.
Ayrenn wasn't created for the sake of ESO, she was incorporated into ESO.
You can't have it both ways. Either she was in setting, and had already been reference in-game, or she wasn't, and wasn't part of the lore.
Also, worth remembering that Kirkbride's work post Knights of the Nine is non-canon.Edited by starkerealm on June 2, 2018 6:31PM4 -
Rosveen✭✭✭✭✭
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I'll take out of game references too. Just because she might have been mentioned somewhere before ESO's release doesn't mean she wasn't created for ESO - after all, they didn't just put her character in the game on launch day, she was written long before that.anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »
Cite one in game reference pre-2014.
In game ? Pre-2014 ? Since ESO was released in 2014, that would not be possible.
Kirkbride included her in his works prior to ESO, and Bethesda published lore about her before ESO too.
Ayrenn wasn't created for the sake of ESO, she was incorporated into ESO.
I guess she might have existed as a character concept that was eventually put to use in ESO, but that would be weird, considering that her Dominion didn't become a fleshed out concept until pretty late in the series. I'd love to know what you're referring to, I can't think of any such examples. This reminds me how much it sucks that we can't easily search old Bethesda forums anymore...2 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'll take out of game references too.
Generally speaking, no. When it comes to TES canon, there's only a few out of game sources that are weighted at face value. Off hand, the Pocket Guide to the Empire (both Editions) are canon, and I think the two novels are as well. Beyond that, if it didn't show up in the games, it operates at a significantly degraded credibility. This is exacerbated by Kirkbride, who has continued writing fanfiction for the setting since he departed BGS in the late 2000s.1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I guess she might have existed as a character concept that was eventually put to use in ESO, but that would be weird, considering that her Dominion didn't become a fleshed out concept until pretty late in the series. I'd love to know what you're referring to, I can't think of any such examples. This reminds me how much it sucks that we can't easily search old Bethesda forums anymore...
The Dominion (and Thalmor), have actually been around longer than you might realize. They get discussed in the Pocket Guide as far back as Oblivion (2005.) The big thing to understand is that the Dominion in ESO is not the same Dominion as Skyrim's.
Specifically, ESO takes place during the first Aldmeri Dominion. This organization lasted through most of the second era, though I cant remember exactly when it finally fell apart.
In Skyrim you're dealing with the Second Aldmeri Dominion. They styled themselves after the first Dominion, but there's no real continuity between these two.
The Thalmor are still there. It's the same group. The difference is that after the Oblivion Crisis, they started aggressively seizing power in Alinor. So, by the time you see them in Skyrim, they're the de facto leadership of the Second Dominion. The Thalmor you encounter in ESO are, technically, the same group, but this is nearly 800 years before they'd come to power, so you see them in their original role as administrators.6 -
Rosveen✭✭✭✭✭
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I know, but I don't care. With questions like this, out of game sources are just as interesting as the in game ones. Again, even if she wasn't in the games, she might have existed as a concept - and that's what I want to read about.starkerealm wrote: »I'll take out of game references too.
Generally speaking, no. When it comes to TES canon, there's only a few out of game sources that are weighted at face value. Off hand, the Pocket Guide to the Empire (both Editions) are canon, and I think the two novels are as well. Beyond that, if it didn't show up in the games, it operates at a significantly degraded credibility. This is exacerbated by Kirkbride, who has continued writing fanfiction for the setting since he departed BGS in the late 2000s.0 -
LegendaryMage✭✭✭✭✭
✭ESO is set in a chaotic period where not much is known about its history. So anything goes really. There are of course characters such as Mannimarco & others that transcend it.
The only other game that I can think of where Ayrenn can be found, is TES:L
Edited by LegendaryMage on June 2, 2018 6:48PM2 -
Rosveen✭✭✭✭✭
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I appreciate the lore lesson, but you know, I've read the Pocket Guides too.starkerealm wrote: »I guess she might have existed as a character concept that was eventually put to use in ESO, but that would be weird, considering that her Dominion didn't become a fleshed out concept until pretty late in the series. I'd love to know what you're referring to, I can't think of any such examples. This reminds me how much it sucks that we can't easily search old Bethesda forums anymore...
The Dominion (and Thalmor), have actually been around longer than you might realize. They get discussed in the Pocket Guide as far back as Oblivion (2005.) The big thing to understand is that the Dominion in ESO is not the same Dominion as Skyrim's.
Specifically, ESO takes place during the first Aldmeri Dominion. This organization lasted through most of the second era, though I cant remember exactly when it finally fell apart.
In Skyrim you're dealing with the Second Aldmeri Dominion. They styled themselves after the first Dominion, but there's no real continuity between these two.
The Thalmor are still there. It's the same group. The difference is that after the Oblivion Crisis, they started aggressively seizing power in Alinor. So, by the time you see them in Skyrim, they're the de facto leadership of the Second Dominion. The Thalmor you encounter in ESO are, technically, the same group, but this is nearly 800 years before they'd come to power, so you see them in their original role as administrators.
Specifically, check the 1st Pocket Guide, the one that came out with Redguard. It describes the same Dominion as the 3rd Guide (from Oblivion), but in more detail which indicates that it's not the same empire as Ayrenn's. It was originally meant to be the first Dominion, but ESO retconned it as the second to make room for Ayrenn's first - that makes Skyrim's Dominion the third one.
There's no real conflict there, the timeline didn't even change, Beth & ZOS just created an even earlier Dominion because they needed one for their three-way war. That's what I meant when I said it wasn't fleshed out - because it's not the same one we read about in the PGE. That one was formed by a king, not a queen.Edited by Rosveen on June 2, 2018 6:54PM4
