Should Werewolf Form work off of Ultimate rather than a Timer?

Avran_Sylt

Simply put: The timer for WW is rather obscure.

I say:
- Drain 10 Ultimate per second instead of using a timer (while in WW form)
- Allow ultimate generation items and effects to add to the Ultimate count while this is occurring.
- Recasting to exit WW form stops your Ultimate count where it's at. (doesn't consume all ult when transforming back from WW)

BejaProphet

Sounds good. (Needs testing against ult/gen methods)

I don't play a werewolf, but that is one of the best ideas I've ever heard about that. I think you'd need to think it over a lot more carefully than you have, you don't want to enable permanent wolf. But something like that giving them more control would be awesome for you wolf boys.

idk

Isn't needed.

There are already means to extend the time for WW. It would be odd to suggest having more ult than is needed to use the ult give further bonus since that is not the case with any other ultimate. Granted there is some uniqueness to the WW.

Those that want change, this is not what they are clamoring for.

Chrlynsch

idk wrote: »

There are already means to extend the time for WW. It would be odd to suggest having more ult than is needed to use the ult give further bonus since that is not the case with any other ultimate. Granted there is some uniqueness to the WW.

Those that want change, this is not what they are clamoring for.

Overload.

I am not against the ability functioning like this, I have suggested and broke it down multiple times. One of the biggest pitfalls is how it interacts DK and Battle roar. Does it grant nothing (not good) and a nerf to dk Werewolves, Does it grant the full amount and become the next exploit.

Avran_Sylt

@idk

True, and those methods would just get changed to "Gain [x] Ultimate when [y]"

It's just like the Overload Ultimate (in terms of excess).

@BejaProphet

Oh, the actual drain value and everything that it interacts with (Molag Kenna (+2 UltDrain/Second), poisons of cowardice (+ 6 UD/S)), needs to be considered for sure.

But, I would also say that this should allow for permanent passive werewolf form, if the proper sets are used (and stats sacrificed).

Ex: Slap on Akaviri Dragonguard ( -1.5 UltDrain/S) + Salvation ( - 3.3 UD/S) + Call of the Pack (1) (- 2 UD/S) = 3.2 UD/S

Adding on decisive weapons will allow for a fairly lengthy passive uptime while solo (but you sacrifice a lot out of your build)

And in a group of at least 3, it will allow for a permanent passive uptime (if everyone has these sets equipped)

Avran_Sylt

@Chrlynsch

To be honest, I kinda want it to not give anything.

Complete seperation from class passives. (if you want it to be its own)

Ignore Sorc damage, NB ult gen on pot. Everything except for maybe Racial traits.

idk

Isn't needed.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@idk

True, and those methods would just get changed to "Gain [x] Ultimate when [y]"

It's just like the Overload Ultimate (in terms of excess).

It is not really like the Sorc Overload. That is unique as well. There is no timer there.

Avran_Sylt

@idk

Fair enough. In terms of lockout when using either, they are vastly different. Though the "timer" I refer to is the shots you have available until ult depletion.

In general, I'm speaking in terms of Ult/Drain on use. Which is essentially what I'm wanting to emulate for the WW's transformation cost.

idk

Isn't needed.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@idk

Fair enough. In terms of lockout when using either, they are vastly different. Though the "timer" I refer to is the shots you have available until ult depletion.

In general, I'm speaking in terms of Ult/Drain on use. Which is essentially what I'm wanting to emulate for the WW's transformation cost.

I expect the WW community would find that change to be a real negative.

Xvorg

Sounds good. (Needs testing against ult/gen methods)

Chrlynsch wrote: »

idk wrote: »

There are already means to extend the time for WW. It would be odd to suggest having more ult than is needed to use the ult give further bonus since that is not the case with any other ultimate. Granted there is some uniqueness to the WW.

Those that want change, this is not what they are clamoring for.

Overload.

I am not against the ability functioning like this, I have suggested and broke it down multiple times. One of the biggest pitfalls is how it interacts DK and Battle roar. Does it grant nothing (not good) and a nerf to dk Werewolves, Does it grant the full amount and become the next exploit.

Shouls grant the cost of the Ulti that's all. With Ulti cost reduction sets like Akaviri DG you will receive the same resorces than without it.

So, if WW costs 300 ulti, you should get those resources back.

Avran_Sylt

@idk

Oh, I don't mean that the abilities use ultimate. Just that you drain ultimate while in WW form.

Avran_Sylt

@Xvorg @Chrlynsch

IMO I'm of the opinion that the ultimate would simply have no 'threshold', Ultimate in name only.

Toggle WW form on or off, drain ult while in WW form.

It would likely need to have specific interactions (or lack thereof) with certain abilities and sets.

Skoomah

Werewolf is dead. Time to cure the curse!

idk

Isn't needed.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@idk

Oh, I don't mean that the abilities use ultimate. Just that you drain ultimate while in WW form.

This is not going to happen. First, skilled WW can remain in form for a very long time and this idea will mess that up for them. The passives that add time would have to be removed making WW into something sad.

Sorry, but this will not fly.

Avran_Sylt

@idk

How would this mess that up for those WW who can sustain a lot of damage (IE, utilize the Blood Rage/Devour/Feral Pounce)

I could see that messing them up if they were removed, but not if they were kept (but I can see reasoning why there would be a need to remove them. As you could essentially gain ultimate by transforming into a WW, eating corpses, and getting high ult in interim fights).

idk

Isn't needed.

You can already stay I form for a long time with the current design. Changing the timer does not really solve any real issue.

BTW, the sorc cannot generate ultimate while it is active past the end of the battle buff from before activating Overload. The light and heavy attacks from Overload will not continue to trigger the buff.

Avran_Sylt

@idk

When you're being damaged, yeah. As long as there are a few nearby adds that you can also devour as well. There isn't really a way to passively stay in WW form longer, asides from grouping up with other WWs.

(Overload) I figured as much the same would be true for a player in WW form. LA not giving the Ult Gen. I don't think that the LA's should either (while in WW form).

idk

Isn't needed.

But with your idea the passives that extend WW form from taking damage and feeding would have to be changed to ultimate gain. That is not permitted under the current design and should not.

Regardless, it is trying to fix something that really is not broken. Enjoy the game, have a good evening. There is nothing more I can add to this topic.

Avran_Sylt

@idk

Bloodspawn, Werewolf Hide. TBH I don't actually know if they add to Overload while it's out, but it's the same principal.

Anyway, as you wish, have a good day.

Skullstachio

Other

During one of my discussions, I had this idea for a completely remastered passive.

Call of Storihbeg: (call of the pack remastered.)

1. Your Servitude to Hircine has removed the cost of werewolf transformation, but at a great price, overtime, the 9966 armour bonus deteriorates down to 0 as the timer reaches zero, however, spending time outside werewolf form will slowly replenish the timer by 1 second every 6 seconds.
2. Your Servitude to Hircine has removed the cost of werewolf transformation, but at a great price, overtime, the 9966 armour bonus deteriorates down to 0 as the timer reaches zero, however, spending time outside werewolf form will slowly replenish the timer by 1 second every 3 seconds.

I wonder if this could fit in well...

Chrlynsch

idk wrote: »

You can already stay I form for a long time with the current design. Changing the timer does not really solve any real issue.

BTW, the sorc cannot generate ultimate while it is active past the end of the battle buff from before activating Overload. The light and heavy attacks from Overload will not continue to trigger the buff.

To generate ulti in overload you only have to heal an ally, dodge an incoming attack, or block an incoming attack... still get ulti per second.

Chrlynsch

Xvorg wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

idk wrote: »

There are already means to extend the time for WW. It would be odd to suggest having more ult than is needed to use the ult give further bonus since that is not the case with any other ultimate. Granted there is some uniqueness to the WW.

Those that want change, this is not what they are clamoring for.

Overload.

I am not against the ability functioning like this, I have suggested and broke it down multiple times. One of the biggest pitfalls is how it interacts DK and Battle roar. Does it grant nothing (not good) and a nerf to dk Werewolves, Does it grant the full amount and become the next exploit.

Shouls grant the cost of the Ulti that's all. With Ulti cost reduction sets like Akaviri DG you will receive the same resorces than without it.

So, if WW costs 300 ulti, you should get those resources back.

So what is to stop a Dk werewolv sitting at 500 ult from transforming in and out of wolf form a couple times to get 20k resources back in 4 seconds?

Xvorg

Sounds good. (Needs testing against ult/gen methods)

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

idk wrote: »

There are already means to extend the time for WW. It would be odd to suggest having more ult than is needed to use the ult give further bonus since that is not the case with any other ultimate. Granted there is some uniqueness to the WW.

Those that want change, this is not what they are clamoring for.

Overload.

I am not against the ability functioning like this, I have suggested and broke it down multiple times. One of the biggest pitfalls is how it interacts DK and Battle roar. Does it grant nothing (not good) and a nerf to dk Werewolves, Does it grant the full amount and become the next exploit.

Shouls grant the cost of the Ulti that's all. With Ulti cost reduction sets like Akaviri DG you will receive the same resorces than without it.

So, if WW costs 300 ulti, you should get those resources back.

So what is to stop a Dk werewolv sitting at 500 ult from transforming in and out of wolf form a couple times to get 20k resources back in 4 seconds?

A simple cooldown of 20 secs.

Solariken

Sounds good. (Needs testing against ult/gen methods)

I like it. It makes more sense and gives werewolves another thing to build toward if they like staying in form longer versus just having huge weapon damage. Maybe give minor heroism for 10 seconds after each corpse feed in addition to an instant chunk of ultimate.

Solariken

Sounds good. (Needs testing against ult/gen methods)

I'm of the opinion that werewolves should be able to stay in form indefinitely if they build for it. Maybe a caveat could be that if you die while in form, you transform back to human and all of your ultimate is drained.

Lykanus

Isn't needed.

Solariken wrote: »

I'm of the opinion that werewolves should be able to stay in form indefinitely if they build for it. Maybe a caveat could be that if you die while in form, you transform back to human and all of your ultimate is drained.

I'm for that it should reward group-play oriented werewolves while making solo not to stressful. Building all around ultimate isnt a favour, i would actually hate that. I am fine with a normal timer, just make it possible for solo wolves to relax a bit more without the pressure always in their neck(easier devour+give some WW time back by attacking and not by being hit!) and make call of the pack passive already give decent ww time in group with 2 or 3 werewolves (65%+ for 2 , 75%+ for 3).

The idea about devour and the timer isnt bad overall just the pressure is a bit to high in solo play and _impossible_ in group play without other werewolves currently.

A rotation with attacking+a leap for time to time should keep you in your form. WW isnt meant as a tank so get rid of "being hit gives ww time" and replace with "attacking gives ww time".

Aznox

Isn't needed.

I don't want want to choose between a permawolf and and powerful wolf, i'd like to keep both like i already have.

redspecter23

Other

I'd be quite happy if WW didn't work off the ultimate at all so you can actually use that slot for a "real" WW ultimate ability. Timers aren't fun and it's no different here as you're fighting against the clock constantly to keep your form up, which can lead to a very specific style of play out of necessity. It's certainly better than it has been in the past, but it's not something I'll enjoy in its current form.

Avran_Sylt

@Aznox

You'd still be able to keep a high damage perma-wolf if you maintained sustained damage and continually devoured corpses (as it is now). But by tying in the timer with Ultimate gain, it also allows an avenue for the player to play perma-wolf in a passive manner (albeit at sacrificing total damage output).

The entire reason for the 10 Ult drain per second is since it matches the current cost of WW at 300 for 30 secs. And instead of manipulating time, you manipulate units of Ultimate at a 10:1 ratio. (IE 30 ult every 3 sec when damage, 120 Ult for devouring a corpse). But by being explicit with Ultimate, you can utilize various sources of Ultimate manipulation.

Of course that does present problems with things such as the DK passive, and NB ult Gen from potions, as well as from various sets that do similar things with ultimate such as with the Witchman Armor set.

(Which I would sircumvent by creating a new skill category : "Transformation" that can be slotted anywhere, as when used it simply leads to another class 'state' that's encapsulated from other class passives and bonuses, but that is another discussion)

ccfeeling

Ww form gave up too much, ww needs timer buff please.

danno8

Other

I think there should be no timer as long as you are in combat. If people want to fight in WW form for the whole fight they shouldn't have to bother with Devouring corpses to stay in form. It's not like WW doesn't have it's drawbacks or is a super-strong Ulitimate. It's more RP than anything.

Then when you fall out of combat the timer can kick in and if you want to stay in WW form you would need to find a corpse and devour, or get back in combat, kill something, then devour to top up the timer.