Increase max magicka or spell damage?

seipher09

Overall which of the 2 scale better for providing more damage? I would assume spell damage correct?

VaranisArano

I think, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, that every 10 points in your maxmagicka is equal to 1 point spell damage.

Thing is, max magicka is often easier to acquire than more spell damage and has other benefits like having a larger resource pool.

I'm not sure how it works with light and heavy attacks now scaling from your max magicka as well, but I suspect that adding max magicka is the better choice up to a certain point.

Narvuntien

So for magicka characters max magicka is typically better because more max magicka gives you stronger shields and you have a lot of % increases to max magicka notably inner light, light armor passives and race passives.

Whille stam characters in medium armor have weapon damage % increases which makes weapon damage better than stamina.

Astrid

Technically max magic. Having 3-4-5k or whatever you fancy spell damage is all well and good, but not being able to afford to cast anything is pointless. I quite happily breeze along with 42k magicka and roughly 4K spells damage and 51% crit. I focused solely on my max before I starting playing with all else. magicka pool first. Tweak from there.

mocap

for pet sorc definitely magicka

Aznox

Before Summerset :
PvE :
Stack Weapon/Spell Damage for everyone (except PetSorc)
PvP :
Stack Max Magicka for PetSorc and some other shield setups
Stack Weapon/Spell Damage for everyone else

After Summerset
PvE :
Stack Weapon/Spell Damage for everyone (except PetSorc)
PvP :
Stack Magicka for all shield setups
Stack either Weapon/Spell Damage (slightly more damage) or/and Max Resource (larger burst pool)

Edit : not a 100% rule, just to showcase how the increase in light/heavy attack damage scaling from max resource affected overall balance.

eso_nya

For pure dmg, both pools scale the same way:
Generell rule:
Increasing your pool by n% increases your dmg done by n/2%. Means if u have 2k spelldmg and increase it by 200, your dmg goes up by 5%.
As already mentioned over the thumb 1 spelldmg is worth 10 max magicka.
If your magicka/10 is higher than your spelldmg its better to increase spelldmg and the other way round. Reason is, if u e.g. have 2k spelldmg and 40k max magicka and u can choose between increasing magicka by 2k or spelldmg by 200:
- 200 spelldmg will increase your dmg by 5%
- 2k max mag will only give a 2,5% dmg increase.

Exceptions:
Skills that do dmg and heal (e.g. Funnel Health) r slightly different as they the dmg component scales by 0,6 w/ spelldmg and 0,4 with max magicka, while the healing component scales by 0,4 with spelldmg and 0,6 with max mag.
Shields and (sorc?-) pets only scale with magicka.

Sidenote:
- for 2, 3, 4 pc boni the spelldmg boosters r slightly higher than the max magicka, thus they r "better".
- u get 25% [+2% for every sorc skill] increase in spelldmg for minor and major buff, max magicka buffs r 7% inner light + [2% meteor] + [10% race] + [8% sorc/nb/warden] + [2% every other mages guild skill]. Those buffs stack additive: e.g. <your pool> * 1,09 if u have inner light and meteor slotted (and not (<your pool> *1,07)* 1,02).

Aznox

eso_nya wrote: »

If your magicka/10 is higher than your spelldmg its better to increase spelldmg and the other way round. Reason is, if u e.g. have 2k spelldmg and 40k max magicka and u can choose between increasing magicka by 2k or spelldmg by 200:
- 200 spelldmg will increase your dmg by 5%
- 2k max mag will only give a 2,5% dmg increase.

This part doesnt make sense to me, i don't see why the choice would be affected by your current values.
It's all about the bonus on the two sets you are looking at (and scaling exceptions / buffs)

1 Weapon/Spell damage = 10,5 max Stamina/Magicka for damage

A set bonus with 129 Weapon/Spell damage will bring as much damage as 1354 max Stamina/Magicka
However, set bonus usually bring 1096 max Stamina/Magicka for the same slot.
In long PvE fights max resource pool will make no difference so the choice is obvious.
In PvP it can be viable to sacrifice some sustained damage for a few more seconds of burst damage using a larger pool.

eso_nya

Aznox wrote: »

eso_nya wrote: »

If your magicka/10 is higher than your spelldmg its better to increase spelldmg and the other way round. Reason is, if u e.g. have 2k spelldmg and 40k max magicka and u can choose between increasing magicka by 2k or spelldmg by 200:
- 200 spelldmg will increase your dmg by 5%
- 2k max mag will only give a 2,5% dmg increase.

This part doesnt make sense to me, i don't see why the choice would be affected by your current values.
It's all about the bonus on the two sets you are looking at (and scaling exceptions / buffs)

1 Weapon/Spell damage = 10,5 max Stamina/Magicka for damage

A set bonus with 129 Weapon/Spell damage will bring as much damage as 1354 max Stamina/Magicka
However, set bonus usually bring 1096 max Stamina/Magicka for the same slot.
In long PvE fights max resource pool will make no difference so the choice is obvious.
In PvP it can be viable to sacrifice some sustained damage for a few more seconds of burst damage using a larger pool.

Because it scales percentual and not linear.
If u only have e.g. a golden staff equiped (1335 spell dmg) and add 1 pc kena (129) your "tooltip damage" goes up by 4,8%
If u have golden staff (1335) and 5 pc julianos (300) and 3 spelldmg glyphs (522) = 2157 and than add 1 pc kena, "tooltip damage" goes up by 2,99%. (excluding sideeffects like e.g. adding kena shoulder also adds points for magicka enchant and accidently procs undaunted passive and so)
The higher your current pool is, the less u gain by further increasing it.

Experiment if u dont believe me: Go to eldenhollow, attack dark root, kill blue bug, stand in blue goo. Check your max pool and tooltipdmg of a skill outside and inside goo. Compare percentual increase of max mag and of tooltip. While inside your max mag is increased by ~35k.

Aznox

eso_nya wrote: »

If u only have e.g. a golden staff equiped (1335 spell dmg) and add 1 pc kena (129) your "tooltip damage" goes up by 4,8%
If u have golden staff (1335) and 5 pc julianos (300) and 3 spelldmg glyphs (522) = 2157 and than add 1 pc kena, "tooltip damage" goes up by 2,99%.

well ... yes speaking in % increase this is perfectly logical, but this has no value in choosing magicka vs spell dmg.

if 129 spell damage provides a better flat increase in tooltip than 1096 max magicka at any given combination of stats, then it will do so at all combinations of stats, given that external modifiers stay the same.

in your first example, adding 1354 max magicka would have made tooltip go up by 4,8%
in your second example, adding 1354 magicka would have made tooltil go up by 2,99%

the decision 129 spell damage vs 1096 max magicka is the same in both situation.

The higher your current pool is, the less u gain by further increasing it.

in % yes, but we care about flat value. (there is no diminishing returns as far as i know)

Septimus_Magna

eso_nya wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

eso_nya wrote: »

If your magicka/10 is higher than your spelldmg its better to increase spelldmg and the other way round. Reason is, if u e.g. have 2k spelldmg and 40k max magicka and u can choose between increasing magicka by 2k or spelldmg by 200:
- 200 spelldmg will increase your dmg by 5%
- 2k max mag will only give a 2,5% dmg increase.

This part doesnt make sense to me, i don't see why the choice would be affected by your current values.
It's all about the bonus on the two sets you are looking at (and scaling exceptions / buffs)

1 Weapon/Spell damage = 10,5 max Stamina/Magicka for damage

A set bonus with 129 Weapon/Spell damage will bring as much damage as 1354 max Stamina/Magicka
However, set bonus usually bring 1096 max Stamina/Magicka for the same slot.
In long PvE fights max resource pool will make no difference so the choice is obvious.
In PvP it can be viable to sacrifice some sustained damage for a few more seconds of burst damage using a larger pool.

Because it scales percentual and not linear.
If u only have e.g. a golden staff equiped (1335 spell dmg) and add 1 pc kena (129) your "tooltip damage" goes up by 4,8%
If u have golden staff (1335) and 5 pc julianos (300) and 3 spelldmg glyphs (522) = 2157 and than add 1 pc kena, "tooltip damage" goes up by 2,99%. (excluding sideeffects like e.g. adding kena shoulder also adds points for magicka enchant and accidently procs undaunted passive and so)
The higher your current pool is, the less u gain by further increasing it.

Experiment if u dont believe me: Go to eldenhollow, attack dark root, kill blue bug, stand in blue goo. Check your max pool and tooltipdmg of a skill outside and inside goo. Compare percentual increase of max mag and of tooltip. While inside your max mag is increased by ~35k.

Tooltip value = skill coeff x (max spell dmg + 10,45 x max magicka)
*10,45 might be slightly off the actual value.

There are no diminishing returns for only increasing spell dmg for example.

Maybe your test with the Dark Root add isnt the best way to determine how skill dmg scaling actually works.

eso_nya

Aznox wrote: »

in your first example, adding 1354 max magicka would have made tooltip go up by 4,8%
in your second example, adding 1354 magicka would have made tooltil go up by 2,99%

No. The pools r indipendant.

Lets put it that way: You have 4 julianos and 4 Necro equiped (and a pet out). Your max magicka is 40k. your spelldmg 2k (for sake of easy numbers)
If u equip 5th necro part u get + 4k magicka and your tooltip dmg goes up by 5%.
If u instead equip 5th part julianos u get +300 spelldmg and your tooltip dmg goes up by 7,5%.

Aznox

Sure Necropotence/Julianos is a good example of what happens when two sets are giving the same damage on paper (10,5% ratio)

Julianos 300 Spell damage = Necropotence 3150 Max Magicka
(1/10,5)

The 3150 Max Magicka from Necro 5th will probably give you 3,7k more effective Max Magicka
(Racial + Bound Armor)

Now the 300 Spell Damage from Julianos 5th get +20% from Major Sorcery, +8% from 4 sorcerer skill sloted
That's 384 effective Spell Damage or 4032 Max-Magicka-Equivalent-Damage

BUT in the case of the PetSorc, you would still choose Necropotence because Pets and Shields are not affected by Spell Damage, making Julianos useless for this build.

Still all this only proves my point

Jsmalls

Aznox wrote: »

Sure Necropotence/Julianos is a good example of what happens when two sets are giving the same damage on paper (10,5% ratio)

Julianos 300 Spell damage = Necropotence 3150 Max Magicka
(1/10,5)

The 3150 Max Magicka from Necro 5th will probably give you 3,7k more effective Max Magicka
(Racial + Bound Armor)

Now the 300 Spell Damage from Julianos 5th get +20% from Major Sorcery, +8% from 4 sorcerer skill sloted
That's 384 effective Spell Damage or 4032 Max-Magicka-Equivalent-Damage

BUT in the case of the PetSorc, you would still choose Necropotence because Pets and Shields are not affected by Spell Damage, making Julianos useless for this build.

Still all this only proves my point and i think you vision of the mater is flawed.

As a MagSorc that stacks Max magicka religiously.

With a good magicka race, undaunted passives, and mage light slotted (no bound armor mind you) you actually recieve roughly 1.5x the stated magicka bonus. So 1096 magicka set bonus actually gives me 1600~ magicka.

Aznox

Jsmalls wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Sure Necropotence/Julianos is a good example of what happens when two sets are giving the same damage on paper (10,5% ratio)

Julianos 300 Spell damage = Necropotence 3150 Max Magicka
(1/10,5)

The 3150 Max Magicka from Necro 5th will probably give you 3,7k more effective Max Magicka
(Racial + Bound Armor)

Now the 300 Spell Damage from Julianos 5th get +20% from Major Sorcery, +8% from 4 sorcerer skill sloted
That's 384 effective Spell Damage or 4032 Max-Magicka-Equivalent-Damage

BUT in the case of the PetSorc, you would still choose Necropotence because Pets and Shields are not affected by Spell Damage, making Julianos useless for this build.

Still all this only proves my point and i think you vision of the mater is flawed.

As a MagSorc that stacks Max magicka religiously.

With a good magicka race, undaunted passives, and mage light slotted (no bound armor mind you) you actually recieve roughly 1.5x the stated magicka bonus. So 1096 magicka set bonus actually gives me 1600~ magicka.

High Elf +10%
Undaunted +6%
Inner light +5%

What am I missing ?

Biro123

Aznox wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Sure Necropotence/Julianos is a good example of what happens when two sets are giving the same damage on paper (10,5% ratio)

Julianos 300 Spell damage = Necropotence 3150 Max Magicka
(1/10,5)

The 3150 Max Magicka from Necro 5th will probably give you 3,7k more effective Max Magicka
(Racial + Bound Armor)

Now the 300 Spell Damage from Julianos 5th get +20% from Major Sorcery, +8% from 4 sorcerer skill sloted
That's 384 effective Spell Damage or 4032 Max-Magicka-Equivalent-Damage

BUT in the case of the PetSorc, you would still choose Necropotence because Pets and Shields are not affected by Spell Damage, making Julianos useless for this build.

Still all this only proves my point and i think you vision of the mater is flawed.

As a MagSorc that stacks Max magicka religiously.

With a good magicka race, undaunted passives, and mage light slotted (no bound armor mind you) you actually recieve roughly 1.5x the stated magicka bonus. So 1096 magicka set bonus actually gives me 1600~ magicka.

High Elf +10%
Undaunted +6%
Inner light +5%

What am I missing ?

20% CP, maybe some mages guild passive.

idk

VaranisArano wrote: »

I think, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, that every 10 points in your maxmagicka is equal to 1 point spell damage.

This is pretty correct. I think it is more 10.5 to 1 for most skills. However, it depends on build. Take into account sorc pets. They scale off magika so spell damage is not very useful for them.

Aznox

Biro123 wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Sure Necropotence/Julianos is a good example of what happens when two sets are giving the same damage on paper (10,5% ratio)

Julianos 300 Spell damage = Necropotence 3150 Max Magicka
(1/10,5)

The 3150 Max Magicka from Necro 5th will probably give you 3,7k more effective Max Magicka
(Racial + Bound Armor)

Now the 300 Spell Damage from Julianos 5th get +20% from Major Sorcery, +8% from 4 sorcerer skill sloted
That's 384 effective Spell Damage or 4032 Max-Magicka-Equivalent-Damage

BUT in the case of the PetSorc, you would still choose Necropotence because Pets and Shields are not affected by Spell Damage, making Julianos useless for this build.

Still all this only proves my point and i think you vision of the mater is flawed.

As a MagSorc that stacks Max magicka religiously.

With a good magicka race, undaunted passives, and mage light slotted (no bound armor mind you) you actually recieve roughly 1.5x the stated magicka bonus. So 1096 magicka set bonus actually gives me 1600~ magicka.

High Elf +10%
Undaunted +6%
Inner light +5%

What am I missing ?

20% CP, maybe some mages guild passive.

Right

I though CP only boosted the base resources that you get from levels and attributes. (so naked values), but it seems to be everything except food and mundus.
Also Magicka Controller passive : +2% for one Mage Guild skill sloted.

We are at +43% then (if all the listed buff do affect stats from gear)

Vaoh

A Spell Damage bonus will provide more outright damage, but Max Magicka has other benefits (bigger resource pool, larger shields).

Between a choice of a Spell Damage bonus or a Maximum Magicka bonus, you should go for Spell Damage in PvE.

In PvP you need powerful shields too, meaning it’s basically always better to stack Max Magicka.

Iselin

The big change in Summerset is that the damage from light attacks and heavy attacks now scales exactly the same way as your abilities. So 1050 magicka/stamina increase your damage the same as 100 spell/weapon power (10.5:1 ratio) for everything.

Before Summerset light and heavy weapon attacks scaled a lot more from spell/weapon power: the ratio for those used to be 40:1 so you needed 4000 magicka/stamina to have the same impact on LAs and HAs as 100 spell/weapon power.

You might as well stack magicka and stamina over spell and weapon power now since it has the side benefit of needing to HA weave less often.

This is also partly dependent on class buff abilities, gear and other bonuses that increase one or the other by a % amount. That can also make you one to prefer stacking one over the other depending on what you're buffing more. For example the Warden's Northern Storm Ultimate increases your magicka by 8% by just slotting it and it does not increase your spell power at all - that may be one buff that may push you toward preferring a magicka stack over spell power since you'll get more out of that 8% with a larger magicka pool.

And for "weird" sets like Pelinal's that lets you build hybrids by using the higher of your spell or weapon power for all magicka or stamina abilities, you still obviously want to stack weapon power with that.

WrathOfInnos

It can depend on a few things. If you are a Magicka race (Altmer 10%, Breton 10%, Dunmer 9%), and have a 8% class Magicka bonus (sorc, nightblade, bearless warden), with good warhorn uptime (another 10%) then Max Magicka adds more damage than spell damage.

Be sure to slot Inner Light for 7% and unlock undaunted passives (with 5-1-1 armor) for another 6% Max Magicka. Also be sure to consider the fact that Magicka gets a 20% multiplier from CP’s.

Spell damage typically only gets a 25% bonus from Major and Minor Sorcery. And the ratio 10.5 allows comparison between spell damage and Max Magicka for damage skills.

Bladerunner1

On a magblade magicka is very close to matching the buff from spell damage, even without warhorn. I use the Mage mundus over Apprentice, and my magblade has a very lopsided magicka pool in comparison to spell damage.

Crafted spell power potions don't quite buff as much anymore, they're not as important to buffing DPS as weapon power potions on a stamina DPS. I use cheap looted resource potions for pretty much all 4 player dungeoning and now I've noticed that my magblade is out DPSing my stamblade under those cirumstances.

Gorrest

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Tooltip value = skill coeff x (max spell dmg + 10,45 x max magicka)
*10,45 might be slightly off the actual value.

There are no diminishing returns for only increasing spell dmg for example.

Maybe your test with the Dark Root add isnt the best way to determine how skill dmg scaling actually works.

Slighty off, but mainly because of random coefficient on skills. But in 90% of cases it is 10.45-10.50 per spell/weapon damage.

For example, Jesus Beam actually has a 10.53 coefficient

DUTCH_REAPER

Is this data still accurate for current patch? Thank you in advance