A (Hopefully) Nuanced Discussion on Dark Cloak

Jimmy_The_Fixer

After spending a significant amount of time playing with a nightblade and against nightblades, I think I've nailed down why the discussion around Dark Cloak always devolves into chaos.

Dark Cloak is too strong and too weak at the same time.

On one hand, against builds that lack a way of pulling the NB out of stealth ( e.g. most stamdens not using DW), the nightblade is functionally immortal, being able to regen stamina, heal up, and re-engage with either a strong attack or a fully charged heavy for free resources. All while any DoTs have their timers ticking down but without dealing any damage.

On the other hand, certain conditions basically nullify Cloak to the point where it's a dead skill, not worth using even if it costed 0 resources. Hurricane, detect pots, steel tornado and sloads aren't just counters, they fully nullify the ability.

This turns the gameplay/counterplay of Cloak into a game of rock-paper-scissors where the nightblade basically cannot die if no counter is present, but has an essential class-defining ability turned to dead weight if anything nearby can break stealth.

ZoS has already solved this problem though. Let's look a mist form.

Most form is an absurdly strong defensive ability that has its downsides baked into the ability itself. Most mitigates basically all damage taken for its duration and gives a speed boost with an immunity to snares and roots. This incredible ability is then balanced by downsides, no spellcasting, spell regen or healing for the duration of the effect. Mist form is a strong defensive utility, and it can be frustrating to play against, but ultimately very few people complain about it.

Now, Cloak is not mist form, it's a vital class defining ability, so maybe the drawbacks shouldn't be as severe, but maybe if some drawbacks are implemented then the ability could be changed to not be so easily countered.

As an example (not a particularly good one) would be to have Cloak render an immunity to being pulled out of stealth by any periodic damage (curse, hurricane, destro ult) but to place a 100% healing debuff while stealthed. (It doesn't have to be this specifically, just some combination of changes that dials back the power of the ability but makes it somewhat usable even when it's counters are present)

So that's the basic idea, eliminate the rock-paper-scissors by allowing Cloak to be usable against almost all enemies while still giving a chance to any opponent that doesn't have the specific necessary counter.

ShadowMonarch

I suggested the other day that sense cloak suppress's dots it should suppress heals too, its a way better idea then scaling its costs up like most of the mindless monkeys suggest.

The only drawback to your suggestion is if it puts a immunity on being pulled out of cloak after you use it, then a NB can just spam cloak and be immune from death till its safe.

Jimmy_The_Fixer

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

I suggested the other day that sense cloak suppress's dots it should suppress heals too, its a way better idea then scaling its costs up like most of the mindless monkeys suggest.

The only drawback to your suggestion is if it puts a immunity on being pulled out of cloak after you use it, then a NB can just spam cloak and be immune from death till its safe.

The example I gave was just to give an idea of the kind of thing I was thinking of, I wasn't putting forward as The Definitive Solution.

I edited the OP to make that a bit more clear.

Maryal

Why NBs need cloak:

There are two basics that make up a decent class defense (I'm talking class skills). For the purpose of this post, I'll refer to these two basics as a class's 'defensive paring' skills.

The first is the class needs a way to heal themselves (and I'm not talking about some wimpy HOT).
The second is some sort of skill that can be used to help the healing skill do it's thing.

For example, having a class skill to shield yourself from further damage while the heal is doing its thing, OR purging multiple DOTs so the heal can actually make your health bar go up (Templar / Warden (<-- who can spam their netch at no cost for a multi-purge effect), or being able zoom-zooming to create distance from combat or to get LOS so the heal can do it's thing. NBs don't have a class shield, they don't have a class purge (anymore), they don't have the zoom-zoom ... what they have is cloak.

Instead of having a class shield, or a class purge, or a class zoom-zoom skill that can be used to help the healing skill do it's thing, NBs have cloak. There are pros and cons with the defensive paring skills each class has, but, in the end, the pro's and con's pretty much balance each other out. Unfortunately, many of us suffer from the 'grass looks greener on the other side' syndrome.

The defensive paring skills some other classes have, well, we complain about them, but we secretly want them, such as an invisibility skill. This triggers the 'well, if my class can't have it, then neither can yours' ... (also known as 'lets nerf' (whatever) ). You can spot this when the call to nerf a particular skill is being justified or based on how well or powerful some other skill performs.

Jimmy_The_Fixer

Maryal wrote: »

Why NBs need cloak:

There are two basics that make up a decent class defense (I'm talking class skills). For the purpose of this post, I'll refer to these two basics as a class's 'defensive paring' skills.

The first is the class needs a way to heal themselves (and I'm not talking about some wimpy HOT).
The second is some sort of skill that can be used to help the healing skill do it's thing.

For example, having a class skill to shield yourself from further damage while the heal is doing its thing, OR purging multiple DOTs so the heal can actually make your health bar go up (Templar / Warden (<-- who can spam their netch at no cost for a multi-purge effect), or being able zoom-zooming to create distance from combat or to get LOS so the heal can do it's thing. NBs don't have a class shield, they don't have a class purge (anymore), they don't have the zoom-zoom ... what they have is cloak.

Instead of having a class shield, or a class purge, or a class zoom-zoom skill that can be used to help the healing skill do it's thing, NBs have cloak. There are pros and cons with the defensive paring skills each class has, but, in the end, the pro's and con's pretty much balance each other out. Unfortunately, many of us suffer from the 'grass looks greener on the other side' syndrome. The defensive paring skills some other classes have, well, we complain about them, but we secretly want them, such as an invisibility skill. This triggers the 'well, if my class can't have it, then neither can yours' ... (also known as 'lets nerf' (whatever) ).

I think you may have missed my suggestion to buff Cloak by removing one of its strongest counters.

This isn't a "nerf Cloak" thread, stillI want to be able to weave in and out of stealth mid-combat when I'm playing my stamblade.

idk

The two skills are not comparable. They are each very unique.

But you did hit the nail on the head. Those that choose to not be prepared to deal with players in stealth are ill prepared for players in stealth.

Zos has clearly placed hard counters into the game and choosing to not use any of the counters is not a valid justification for changes to the skill.

Tonturri

idk wrote: »

The two skills are not comparable. They are each very unique.

But you did hit the nail on the head. Those that choose to not be prepared to deal with players in stealth are ill prepared for players in stealth.

Zos has clearly placed hard counters into the game and choosing to not use any of the counters is not a valid justification for changes to the skill.

It can be. You've probably seen some ridiculous suggestions around the forums like a....say a skill that instantly kills player(s), but requires a ridiculously long cast time, can be interrupted. I don't know, maybe it kills the player if they fail the cast. Whatever.

You could, I suppose, balance such a ridiculous sounding ability - one pro for one con. One EXTREME pro for one equally EXTREME drawback. But is that really a good way to design an ability? Would such a thing be fun to both use and to deal with?

Probably not. Cloak is either ridiculously strong and feels amazing to use...or feels horribly weak and just plain awful to try and use. And for the opponent too - amazing to fight against if you bothered to slot something to totally nullify the skill, and absolutely agonizing if you didn't.

This is why the vast majority of everything ever in a game tends towards soft counters of varying degrees instead of a counter as hard and throbbing as a body builder's bicep (and why you have problems when someone thinks that the extreme benefit is balanced out by extreme hardcounter looks good on paper and so it'll work totally fine in-game, and then there are issues..)

So, yeah. OP not only hit the problem on the head but the solution as well - move Cloak away from either being super amazing and godly, orrrr hardcountered and useless...towards a more toned down thing. Tone down the extreme benefits and extreme drawbacks. Let it have soft counters instead of hard counters.

This absolutely is valid justification for changing a skill.

Edit: You also totally missed the point the OP was trying to make. Let me give it a go. You seem to ahve assumed that the OP was directly comparing Mist and Cloak. That doesn't seem tobe the case. They were instead comparing the DESIGN of the abilities...see above for more info. The comparison works out the way they did it - and certainly wouldn't if they did it the way you think they did...but that's not what they said.

ak_pvp

It is the highest form of damage suppression, and it shouldn't be. Not only are you invisible, so hard to be found and can escape, but untargettable and it supresses dots, all for a cheap cost, wheras block, which supresses less, and snares you ramps up cost. Shields have a number on what they can stop before cast, and again, don't make you invisible.

Add that to the fact the counters suck unless you are an NB or a zergling who can sacrifice as much.

Honestly, I think cloak shouldn't be breakable by anything but AoEs, however all damage already sent to the player should hit, dots, projectiles/attacks en route (no force misses) etc. Mark and detect pots should be player only, so if you see them, you can attack them, but unless you get close enough to AoE, it wouldn't break.

That way, it'll mitigate a lot less, but better for escape and kiting without being broken by zergs. AKA work like true invisibility, so untargettable generally, but still there. I would also add the ability to roll/sprint in cloak too, again, better ability to sneak, but no easy immunity button.

ak_pvp

idk wrote: »

The two skills are not comparable. They are each very unique.

But you did hit the nail on the head. Those that choose to not be prepared to deal with players in stealth are ill prepared for players in stealth.

Zos has clearly placed hard counters into the game and choosing to not use any of the counters is not a valid justification for changes to the skill.

BS.

The "counters" to cloak are pathetic.

use an expensive short ranged AoE only to 1) not hit them, because duh, invisible 2) Hit them, and they recloak, because its easy.

• Use an expensive short ranged AoE only to 1) not hit them, because duh, invisible 2) Hit them, and they recloak, because its easy.
• Use a reveal skill like flare with the same issues, 1) It does nothing 2) Since the actual reveal is a staggering 3s, they roll.
• Use mark 1) You are an NB, and can cloak too 2) You are not an NB, no mark for you.
• Use a potion/poison. They outrange it with shade or consecutive rolls, and then out time it, and you lose a potion effect.

Valid justification is that this ability, and NBs outperform every other class in OW PvP by a mile. Stop defending crutches.

EDIT: Sloads works too. But LBH, that is a broken OP set, and requires sacrifice to run it. Much more potent Xv1. Its probably getting nerfed, but you see the NBs who don't understand how cloak work want an exemption from it breaking, because NBs love their crutches
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KingJ

ak_pvp wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The two skills are not comparable. They are each very unique.

But you did hit the nail on the head. Those that choose to not be prepared to deal with players in stealth are ill prepared for players in stealth.

Zos has clearly placed hard counters into the game and choosing to not use any of the counters is not a valid justification for changes to the skill.

BS.

The "counters" to cloak are pathetic, use an expensive short ranged AoE only to 1) not hit them, because duh, invisible 2) Hit them, and they recloak, because its easy.

• Use a reveal skill like flare with the same issues, 1) It does nothing 2) Since the actual reveal is a staggering 3s, they roll.
• Use mark 1) You are an NB, and can cloak too 2) You are not an NB, no mark for you.
• Use a potion/poison. They outrange it with shade or consecutive rolls, and then out time it, and you lose a potion effect.

Valid justification is that this ability, and NBs outperform every other class in OW PvP by a mile. Stop defending crutches.

Lawl

Betsararie

Cloak is a broken skill and invisibility as a form of damage mitigation is far too powerful, and needs adjustment.

I'd propose a simple cooldown on the skill. "Casting again within 7 seconds will cost 50% more magicka". Everyone else onboard with that?

ShadowMonarch

[

Blanco wrote: »

Cloak is a broken skill and invisibility as a form of damage mitigation is far too powerful, and needs adjustment.

I'd propose a simple cooldown on the skill. "Casting again within 7 seconds will cost 50% more magicka". Everyone else onboard with that?

Is everybody on board with that? That is ***.

You wouldn't hurt stamblades at all only magblades. If you want to change it make it suppress heals the same way it suppess's dots.

Jimmy_The_Fixer

ak_pvp wrote: »

It is the highest form of damage suppression, and it shouldn't be. Not only are you invisible, so hard to be found and can escape, but untargettable and it supresses dots, all for a cheap cost, wheras block, which supresses less, and snares you ramps up cost. Shields have a number on what they can stop before cast, and again, don't make you invisible.

Add that to the fact the counters suck unless you are an NB or a zergling who can sacrifice as much.

Honestly, I think cloak shouldn't be breakable by anything but AoEs, however all damage already sent to the player should hit, dots, projectiles/attacks en route (no force misses) etc. Mark and detect pots should be player only, so if you see them, you can attack them, but unless you get close enough to AoE, it wouldn't break.

That way, it'll mitigate a lot less, but better for escape and kiting without being broken by zergs. AKA work like true invisibility, so untargettable generally, but still there. I would also add the ability to roll/sprint in cloak too, again, better ability to sneak, but no easy immunity button.

Interesting, I think you might be onto something with allowing the invisible player to take damage without losing invisibility.

It lets an NB move through an area with caltrops/hurricane/Permafrost without invalidating Cloak, but still punishes the player for standing in a damage zone. Plus it lets dot builds act as a soft counter, and the whole point of this exercise is to turn a small list of hard counters to a large list of soft counters.

Being able to sprint while cloaked is an interesting wrinkle, would I really only do dueling and BGs on my NB, but I can imagine that being a powerful tool in solo cyrodiil.

I think forcing misses on en-route attacks and projectiles is fine like it is though, a cloaked player getting hit with a lethal arrow that some scrub started casting 4 seconds ago would result in players taking huge single-target bursts while they're supposed to be untargetable.

Betsararie

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

[

Blanco wrote: »

Cloak is a broken skill and invisibility as a form of damage mitigation is far too powerful, and needs adjustment.

I'd propose a simple cooldown on the skill. "Casting again within 7 seconds will cost 50% more magicka". Everyone else onboard with that?

Is everybody on board with that? That is ***.

You wouldn't hurt stamblades at all only magblades. If you want to change it make it suppress heals the same way it suppess's dots.

Don't act like magblades aren't causing a problem too. Cloak is the problem.

ShadowMonarch

Blanco wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

[

Blanco wrote: »

Cloak is a broken skill and invisibility as a form of damage mitigation is far too powerful, and needs adjustment.

I'd propose a simple cooldown on the skill. "Casting again within 7 seconds will cost 50% more magicka". Everyone else onboard with that?

Is everybody on board with that? That is ***.

You wouldn't hurt stamblades at all only magblades. If you want to change it make it suppress heals the same way it suppess's dots.

Don't act like magblades aren't causing a problem too. Cloak is the problem.

You want cloak nerfed in the same manor streak was nerfed. For that to be viable they would have to fill the same role, which they do not. Cloak is more important to the Nightblade class then streak is to the Sorcerer class, so a mirrored nerf is idiotic. Being in cloak is not a problem, its being able to go into cloak and emerge full health and ready to go with a huge burst everytime, then when getting hit going back into cloak and coming back out full health again ready to burst you. The problem is people are healing to full HP and reset'ing themselves by becoming untargetable for that time.

Sloads, mark target, magelight, aoe's, ect already keep Nb's from being able to spam cloak and get away if you are built to counter them. Increasing the cost will not harm a stamblade. They will dodge roll, cloak, heal, and be bursting you again and again regardless. If you want that to stop then you need to take away their ability to fully heal when they enter stealth.

DRAGON_KILLER_HUNTER

Just use sloads

Betsararie

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

[

Blanco wrote: »

Cloak is a broken skill and invisibility as a form of damage mitigation is far too powerful, and needs adjustment.

I'd propose a simple cooldown on the skill. "Casting again within 7 seconds will cost 50% more magicka". Everyone else onboard with that?

Is everybody on board with that? That is ***.

You wouldn't hurt stamblades at all only magblades. If you want to change it make it suppress heals the same way it suppess's dots.

Don't act like magblades aren't causing a problem too. Cloak is the problem.

You want cloak nerfed in the same manor streak was nerfed. For that to be viable they would have to fill the same role, which they do not. Cloak is more important to the Nightblade class then streak is to the Sorcerer class, so a mirrored nerf is idiotic. Being in cloak is not a problem, its being able to go into cloak and emerge full health and ready to go with a huge burst everytime, then when getting hit going back into cloak and coming back out full health again ready to burst you. The problem is people are healing to full HP and reset'ing themselves by becoming untargetable for that time.

Sloads, mark target, magelight, aoe's, ect already keep Nb's from being able to spam cloak and get away if you are built to counter them. Increasing the cost will not harm a stamblade. They will dodge roll, cloak, heal, and be bursting you again and again regardless. If you want that to stop then you need to take away their ability to fully heal when they enter stealth.

The fact that stamblades can enter cloak and reemerge at full health is not something I even remotely take issue with. I don't understand the intention of your post.

Of course they should reemerge with full health. What are you kidding? Most stamblades are rockin under 25k HP, brah. They're running shadowy disguise which will make the next heal crit. That's why it makes sense for them to heal up like that.

The intention of the post is so muddied I legitimately cannot tell what you're trying to do here. You keep saying a cloak nerf wouldn't affect stamblades at all which is insane so it's just too silly for me, friend.

ShadowMonarch

Blanco wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

[

Blanco wrote: »

Cloak is a broken skill and invisibility as a form of damage mitigation is far too powerful, and needs adjustment.

I'd propose a simple cooldown on the skill. "Casting again within 7 seconds will cost 50% more magicka". Everyone else onboard with that?

Is everybody on board with that? That is ***.

You wouldn't hurt stamblades at all only magblades. If you want to change it make it suppress heals the same way it suppess's dots.

Don't act like magblades aren't causing a problem too. Cloak is the problem.

You want cloak nerfed in the same manor streak was nerfed. For that to be viable they would have to fill the same role, which they do not. Cloak is more important to the Nightblade class then streak is to the Sorcerer class, so a mirrored nerf is idiotic. Being in cloak is not a problem, its being able to go into cloak and emerge full health and ready to go with a huge burst everytime, then when getting hit going back into cloak and coming back out full health again ready to burst you. The problem is people are healing to full HP and reset'ing themselves by becoming untargetable for that time.

Sloads, mark target, magelight, aoe's, ect already keep Nb's from being able to spam cloak and get away if you are built to counter them. Increasing the cost will not harm a stamblade. They will dodge roll, cloak, heal, and be bursting you again and again regardless. If you want that to stop then you need to take away their ability to fully heal when they enter stealth.

The fact that stamblades can enter cloak and reemerge at full health is not something I even remotely take issue with. I don't understand the intention of your post.

Of course they should reemerge with full health. What are you kidding? Most stamblades are rockin under 25k HP, brah. They're running shadowy disguise which will make the next heal crit. That's why it makes sense for them to heal up like that.

The intention of the post is so muddied I legitimately cannot tell what you're trying to do here. You keep saying a cloak nerf wouldn't affect stamblades at all which is insane so it's just too silly for me, friend.

•Fixed an issue where this morph’s effect was causing all your healing over time effects to critically strike, and not consume the effect.
•Fixed an issue where this morph would cause your next damage over time tick to critically strike and consume the effect. This morph’s effect now only works on your next direct damage attack.

If its intended to make heals crit I guess thats why it reads, "Your next direct damage attack used within 3 seconds will always be a Critical Strike." and why the took time to patch it with summerset.

And yes being able to go untargetable/invisible and recover full health in that time, then to have the opportunity to get the first hit off every time is what is OP about cloak.

Being able to go invisble for a few seconds its over powered, but when it lets you refill your entire health bar and get a damage bonus with the fact that you get the first hit off, is. Increasing the cost of cloak for consecutive uses won't stop that. Suppressing heals the same way it already currently suppress's dots would.

Betsararie

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

[

Blanco wrote: »

Cloak is a broken skill and invisibility as a form of damage mitigation is far too powerful, and needs adjustment.

I'd propose a simple cooldown on the skill. "Casting again within 7 seconds will cost 50% more magicka". Everyone else onboard with that?

Is everybody on board with that? That is ***.

You wouldn't hurt stamblades at all only magblades. If you want to change it make it suppress heals the same way it suppess's dots.

Don't act like magblades aren't causing a problem too. Cloak is the problem.

You want cloak nerfed in the same manor streak was nerfed. For that to be viable they would have to fill the same role, which they do not. Cloak is more important to the Nightblade class then streak is to the Sorcerer class, so a mirrored nerf is idiotic. Being in cloak is not a problem, its being able to go into cloak and emerge full health and ready to go with a huge burst everytime, then when getting hit going back into cloak and coming back out full health again ready to burst you. The problem is people are healing to full HP and reset'ing themselves by becoming untargetable for that time.

Sloads, mark target, magelight, aoe's, ect already keep Nb's from being able to spam cloak and get away if you are built to counter them. Increasing the cost will not harm a stamblade. They will dodge roll, cloak, heal, and be bursting you again and again regardless. If you want that to stop then you need to take away their ability to fully heal when they enter stealth.

The fact that stamblades can enter cloak and reemerge at full health is not something I even remotely take issue with. I don't understand the intention of your post.

Of course they should reemerge with full health. What are you kidding? Most stamblades are rockin under 25k HP, brah. They're running shadowy disguise which will make the next heal crit. That's why it makes sense for them to heal up like that.

The intention of the post is so muddied I legitimately cannot tell what you're trying to do here. You keep saying a cloak nerf wouldn't affect stamblades at all which is insane so it's just too silly for me, friend.

•Fixed an issue where this morph’s effect was causing all your healing over time effects to critically strike, and not consume the effect.
•Fixed an issue where this morph would cause your next damage over time tick to critically strike and consume the effect. This morph’s effect now only works on your next direct damage attack.

If its intended to make heals crit I guess thats why it reads, "Your next direct damage attack used within 3 seconds will always be a Critical Strike." and why the took time to patch it with summerset.

And yes being able to go untargetable/invisible and recover full health in that time, then to have the opportunity to get the first hit off every time is what is OP about cloak.

I know the patched it friend I'm talkin' historically. That is why.

I'd hope my opponent will heal up after cloaking even after the nerf. That's not a problem for me I can deal with it.

davey1107

As a nightblade player, I find your post to be remarkably well measured for a cloak discussion, lol. And you are right, cloak has benefits that are too strong and weaknesses that are too exploitable. It makes it an unreliable skill in terms of predictability.

Unfortunately, we have a combat team @ZOS_Wrobel that has run out of ideas over the years, and failed to institute new features and enhancements to the game that make sense and work well. Take Summerset...let’s take a morph of cloak and make it...wait for it...Dragon Blood! Because that’s amazing creative and makes sense! /s In all seriousness, I think it’s time to add some new members to the dev team. Hire from another game, or outside of Zos, I don’t know...but some new energy would be nice.

ShadowMonarch

[

Blanco wrote: »

Cloak is a broken skill and invisibility as a form of damage mitigation is far too powerful

Blanco wrote: »

I'd hope my opponent will heal up after cloaking even after the nerf. That's not a problem for me I can deal with it.

Hmm it would appear it is not, according to your own words.

davey1107 wrote: »

As a nightblade player, I find your post to be remarkably well measured for a cloak discussion, lol. And you are right, cloak has benefits that are too strong and weaknesses that are too exploitable. It makes it an unreliable skill in terms of predictability.

Unfortunately, we have a combat team @ZOS_Wrobel that has run out of ideas over the years, and failed to institute new features and enhancements to the game that make sense and work well. Take Summerset...let’s take a morph of cloak and make it...wait for it...Dragon Blood! Because that’s amazing creative and makes sense! /s In all seriousness, I think it’s time to add some new members to the dev team. Hire from another game, or outside of Zos, I don’t know...but some new energy would be nice.

Yea I feel like it gets like this with a lot of Big MMO's. They start off with a great team producing the abilitys and skills and then some time after launch its like that team is packed up and moved on and we are stuck with what we got for the most part. Some abilitys get switched around but its rarely a good thing for a large portion of players, like our 2nd siphoning ability is now a hot we can cast on other players for a cost of our own hp pool, and the new cloak morph is just dragons blood the hot. Not skills you would think would fit into the Nightblade catalog, while cloak is extremely powerful if it is countered it is pretty much useless, aka if you get a mark on your head then it won't help you for 40seconds, or if you get snared with a stamsorc on you his hurricane will keep you from being able to use it, or a skill like magelight were you literally can't even use the skill.

I think that brings us to part of what the OP was trying to get at, its either OP im 100% invisible and you cant target me, or its 100% useless and minds well not be on your bar. I know in BG matchs if there is a NB spamming mark I will just take cloak off the bar and slot something else, usually mark to counter the other NB or fear. It would be nice if we could find a middle ground of how to counter cloak without rendering it useless. A lot of people cry the cloak counters aren't reliable enough and its because if they were then there would be 0 point to actually run cloak. Its very much either 100% damage mitigation with the ability to heal and crit your next attack if not countered, or a useless slot on the bar if it is and people are reliably using detect pots, flares, or mark target. This is why I think if it suppressed heals the same way it suppress's dots it wouldn't be as powerful of a defensive mechanic but it would still serve the purpose to keep you from taking a beat down and setting up a burst combo.

Betsararie

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Cloak is a broken skill and invisibility as a form of damage mitigation is far too powerful

Blanco wrote: »

I'd hope my opponent will heal up after cloaking even after the nerf. That's not a problem for me I can deal with it.

Hmm it would appear it is not, according to your own words.

You've spoken too soon. As you've brought up, I believe cloak is a "broken" or unfair skill/ability. Invisibility is OP, I believe that too.

That being said, I prefer a challenge. I'm tired of fighting bad stamblades if I'm being honest. They're the easiest class to kill in the game. Good ones are a different story. So, being that I prefer a challenge, I hope my opponent takes advantage of advantages that are available to them. And yes, that is something that I deal fine with.

So, no, just because I think it's OP doesn't mean I don't want people to use it if the advantage is available to them. I don't see any reason why they wouldn't.

ShadowMonarch

Blanco wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Cloak is a broken skill and invisibility as a form of damage mitigation is far too powerful

Blanco wrote: »

I'd hope my opponent will heal up after cloaking even after the nerf. That's not a problem for me I can deal with it.

Hmm it would appear it is not, according to your own words.

You've spoken too soon. As you've brought up, I believe cloak is a "broken" or unfair skill/ability. Invisibility is OP, I believe that too.

That being said, I prefer a challenge. I'm tired of fighting bad stamblades if I'm being honest. They're the easiest class to kill in the game. Good ones are a different story. So, being that I prefer a challenge, I hope my opponent takes advantage of advantages that are available to them. And yes, that is something that I deal fine with.

So, no, just because I think it's OP doesn't mean I don't want people to use it if the advantage is available to them. I don't see any reason why they wouldn't.

So the reason you said

Blanco wrote: »

Cloak is a broken skill and invisibility as a form of damage mitigation is far too powerful, and needs adjustment.

Is because you are, "tired of fighting bad stamblades".

and you end with having made no point other then you think its op but you want people to use it anyway.

Great thanks for being here and contributing to the premise of the thread.

Betsararie

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Cloak is a broken skill and invisibility as a form of damage mitigation is far too powerful

Blanco wrote: »

I'd hope my opponent will heal up after cloaking even after the nerf. That's not a problem for me I can deal with it.

Hmm it would appear it is not, according to your own words.

You've spoken too soon. As you've brought up, I believe cloak is a "broken" or unfair skill/ability. Invisibility is OP, I believe that too.

That being said, I prefer a challenge. I'm tired of fighting bad stamblades if I'm being honest. They're the easiest class to kill in the game. Good ones are a different story. So, being that I prefer a challenge, I hope my opponent takes advantage of advantages that are available to them. And yes, that is something that I deal fine with.

So, no, just because I think it's OP doesn't mean I don't want people to use it if the advantage is available to them. I don't see any reason why they wouldn't.

So the reason you said

Blanco wrote: »

Cloak is a broken skill and invisibility as a form of damage mitigation is far too powerful, and needs adjustment.

Is because you are, "tired of fighting bad stamblades".

and you end with having made no point other then you think its op but you want people to use it anyway.

Great thanks for being here and contributing to the premise of the thread.

No, you are confusing me.

The reason I said that, is it's too powerful in the hands of good players. That's what we balance around, bro. Not accounting for bad players they still have too much learning to do in the game.

Maybe you do I don't need help with amateur level stamblades.

So if you don't understand why what I'm saying is, in fact, correct and accurate. Then I hope you come to terms with it soon.

Just to let you know in games like this players are allowed to use OP setups or skills if they are available. Likewise, it is the job of players like us to BRING IT UP in the forums that said skill or build is OP so it is properly addressed. I hope you understand that soon too.

ShadowMonarch

Blanco wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Cloak is a broken skill and invisibility as a form of damage mitigation is far too powerful

Blanco wrote: »

I'd hope my opponent will heal up after cloaking even after the nerf. That's not a problem for me I can deal with it.

Hmm it would appear it is not, according to your own words.

You've spoken too soon. As you've brought up, I believe cloak is a "broken" or unfair skill/ability. Invisibility is OP, I believe that too.

That being said, I prefer a challenge. I'm tired of fighting bad stamblades if I'm being honest. They're the easiest class to kill in the game. Good ones are a different story. So, being that I prefer a challenge, I hope my opponent takes advantage of advantages that are available to them. And yes, that is something that I deal fine with.

So, no, just because I think it's OP doesn't mean I don't want people to use it if the advantage is available to them. I don't see any reason why they wouldn't.

So the reason you said

Blanco wrote: »

Cloak is a broken skill and invisibility as a form of damage mitigation is far too powerful, and needs adjustment.

Is because you are, "tired of fighting bad stamblades".

and you end with having made no point other then you think its op but you want people to use it anyway.

Great thanks for being here and contributing to the premise of the thread.

No, you are confusing me.

The reason I said that, is it's too powerful in the hands of good players. That's what we balance around, bro. Not accounting for bad players they still have too much learning to do in the game.

Maybe you do I don't need help with amateur level stamblades.

So if you don't understand why what I'm saying is, in fact, correct and accurate. Then I hope you come to terms with it soon.

Just to let you know in games like this players are allowed to use OP setups or skills if they are available. Likewise, it is the job of players like us to BRING IT UP in the forums that said skill or build is OP so it is properly addressed. I hope you understand that soon too.

So the reason you said:

Blanco wrote: »

Cloak is a broken skill and invisibility as a form of damage mitigation is far too powerful, and needs adjustment.

Is because you don't want the ability to heal to full health while having 100% untargetablity + free crit on next strike to get nerfed? as per my suggestion. Cause if you did you would be on board with it.

Nice 10/10.

Betsararie

Seriously who is this guy like

Maryal

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Why NBs need cloak:

There are two basics that make up a decent class defense (I'm talking class skills). For the purpose of this post, I'll refer to these two basics as a class's 'defensive paring' skills.

The first is the class needs a way to heal themselves (and I'm not talking about some wimpy HOT).
The second is some sort of skill that can be used to help the healing skill do it's thing.

For example, having a class skill to shield yourself from further damage while the heal is doing its thing, OR purging multiple DOTs so the heal can actually make your health bar go up (Templar / Warden (<-- who can spam their netch at no cost for a multi-purge effect), or being able zoom-zooming to create distance from combat or to get LOS so the heal can do it's thing. NBs don't have a class shield, they don't have a class purge (anymore), they don't have the zoom-zoom ... what they have is cloak.

Instead of having a class shield, or a class purge, or a class zoom-zoom skill that can be used to help the healing skill do it's thing, NBs have cloak. There are pros and cons with the defensive paring skills each class has, but, in the end, the pro's and con's pretty much balance each other out. Unfortunately, many of us suffer from the 'grass looks greener on the other side' syndrome. The defensive paring skills some other classes have, well, we complain about them, but we secretly want them, such as an invisibility skill. This triggers the 'well, if my class can't have it, then neither can yours' ... (also known as 'lets nerf' (whatever) ).

I think you may have missed my suggestion to buff Cloak by removing one of its strongest counters.

This isn't a "nerf Cloak" thread, stillI want to be able to weave in and out of stealth mid-combat when I'm playing my stamblade.

Giving NBs 'uncloak immunity' for a few seconds after being pulled out of cloak is vitally needed when cloak is used as a
'defensive paring skill' (discussed in my initial post). The problem is this: how do you give cloak a defensive buff in such a way that the buff won't also be used by some to exploit the skill in an offensive manner (i.e., ganking).

While I would love to see a meaningful discussion about the need to buff cloak, whenever these types of discussions pick up any speed, they end up getting derailed by that portion of the community who are very vocally biased against the NB class.

Another problem that derails this type of discussion are the highly subjective views of a very few highly experienced NBs who say the skill is OP. Unfortunately, NB 'haters' use this as fodder for their cause, which quite literally shoots down any meaningful discussion on the topic.

Although very few in number, there are some highly experienced NBs who's skills have become so proficient, not only of the class, but of the game itself, that they no longer need or use cloak as a 'defensive paring skill' and, over time, have developed a level of expertise for using this skill in an offensive manner. If you look at this skill through 'their eyes' it's easy to understand why these vocal few consider the skill as OP. Unfortunately, their heightened level of expertise has dulled their objectivity regarding the skill (as it pertains to the majority of the class), which means their personal view that (the skill is 'OP') should carry less weight, not more.

Jimmy_The_Fixer

Maryal wrote: »

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Why NBs need cloak:

There are two basics that make up a decent class defense (I'm talking class skills). For the purpose of this post, I'll refer to these two basics as a class's 'defensive paring' skills.

The first is the class needs a way to heal themselves (and I'm not talking about some wimpy HOT).
The second is some sort of skill that can be used to help the healing skill do it's thing.

For example, having a class skill to shield yourself from further damage while the heal is doing its thing, OR purging multiple DOTs so the heal can actually make your health bar go up (Templar / Warden (<-- who can spam their netch at no cost for a multi-purge effect), or being able zoom-zooming to create distance from combat or to get LOS so the heal can do it's thing. NBs don't have a class shield, they don't have a class purge (anymore), they don't have the zoom-zoom ... what they have is cloak.

Instead of having a class shield, or a class purge, or a class zoom-zoom skill that can be used to help the healing skill do it's thing, NBs have cloak. There are pros and cons with the defensive paring skills each class has, but, in the end, the pro's and con's pretty much balance each other out. Unfortunately, many of us suffer from the 'grass looks greener on the other side' syndrome. The defensive paring skills some other classes have, well, we complain about them, but we secretly want them, such as an invisibility skill. This triggers the 'well, if my class can't have it, then neither can yours' ... (also known as 'lets nerf' (whatever) ).

I think you may have missed my suggestion to buff Cloak by removing one of its strongest counters.

This isn't a "nerf Cloak" thread, stillI want to be able to weave in and out of stealth mid-combat when I'm playing my stamblade.

Giving NBs 'uncloak immunity' for a few seconds after being pulled out of cloak is vitally needed when cloak is used as a
'defensive paring' skill (discussed in my initial post). The problem is this: how do you give cloak a defensive buff in such a way that the buff won't also be used by some to exploit the skill in an offensive manner (i.e., ganking).

While I would love to see a meaningful discussion about the need to buff cloak, whenever these types of discussion pick up any speed, they end up getting derailed by that portion of the community who are very vocally bias against the NB class.

Another problem that derails this type of discussion is the highly subjective view of a very few highly experienced NBs who say the skill is OP. Unfortunately, NB 'haters' use this as fodder for their cause.

Although very few in number, there are highly experienced NBs who's skills have become so proficient, not only of the class, but of the game itself, that they no longer need or use cloak as a 'defensive paring' skill and, over time, have developed a level of expertise for using this skill in an offensive manner. If you look at this skill through 'their eyes' it's easy to understand why these vocal few consider the skill as OP. Unfortunately, their heightened level of expertise has dulled their objectivity regarding the skill, which means their personal view that (the skill is 'OP') should carry less weight, not more.

While this isn't a "nerf Cloak" thread, it is also not a "buff Cloak" thread.

The idea is to smooth out the spell by reducing its power in situations where a direct counter is not present, but to compensate that by weakening the hard counters into soft counters.

Your suggestion of giving nightblade "uncloak immunity" for a period of time would functionaly give the NB several seconds of literal invulnerability to all damage with no counterplay.

Maryal

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Why NBs need cloak:

There are two basics that make up a decent class defense (I'm talking class skills). For the purpose of this post, I'll refer to these two basics as a class's 'defensive paring' skills.

The first is the class needs a way to heal themselves (and I'm not talking about some wimpy HOT).
The second is some sort of skill that can be used to help the healing skill do it's thing.

For example, having a class skill to shield yourself from further damage while the heal is doing its thing, OR purging multiple DOTs so the heal can actually make your health bar go up (Templar / Warden (<-- who can spam their netch at no cost for a multi-purge effect), or being able zoom-zooming to create distance from combat or to get LOS so the heal can do it's thing. NBs don't have a class shield, they don't have a class purge (anymore), they don't have the zoom-zoom ... what they have is cloak.

Instead of having a class shield, or a class purge, or a class zoom-zoom skill that can be used to help the healing skill do it's thing, NBs have cloak. There are pros and cons with the defensive paring skills each class has, but, in the end, the pro's and con's pretty much balance each other out. Unfortunately, many of us suffer from the 'grass looks greener on the other side' syndrome. The defensive paring skills some other classes have, well, we complain about them, but we secretly want them, such as an invisibility skill. This triggers the 'well, if my class can't have it, then neither can yours' ... (also known as 'lets nerf' (whatever) ).

I think you may have missed my suggestion to buff Cloak by removing one of its strongest counters.

This isn't a "nerf Cloak" thread, stillI want to be able to weave in and out of stealth mid-combat when I'm playing my stamblade.

Giving NBs 'uncloak immunity' for a few seconds after being pulled out of cloak is vitally needed when cloak is used as a
'defensive paring' skill (discussed in my initial post). The problem is this: how do you give cloak a defensive buff in such a way that the buff won't also be used by some to exploit the skill in an offensive manner (i.e., ganking).

While I would love to see a meaningful discussion about the need to buff cloak, whenever these types of discussion pick up any speed, they end up getting derailed by that portion of the community who are very vocally bias against the NB class.

Another problem that derails this type of discussion is the highly subjective view of a very few highly experienced NBs who say the skill is OP. Unfortunately, NB 'haters' use this as fodder for their cause.

Although very few in number, there are highly experienced NBs who's skills have become so proficient, not only of the class, but of the game itself, that they no longer need or use cloak as a 'defensive paring' skill and, over time, have developed a level of expertise for using this skill in an offensive manner. If you look at this skill through 'their eyes' it's easy to understand why these vocal few consider the skill as OP. Unfortunately, their heightened level of expertise has dulled their objectivity regarding the skill, which means their personal view that (the skill is 'OP') should carry less weight, not more.

While this isn't a "nerf Cloak" thread, it is also not a "buff Cloak" thread.

The idea is to smooth out the spell by reducing its power in situations where a direct counter is not present, but to compensate that by weakening the hard counters into soft counters.

Your suggestion of giving nightblade "uncloak immunity" for a period of time would functionaly give the NB several seconds of literal invulnerability to all damage with no counterplay.

Having a 2 second period of 'uncloak immunity' would not spare NBs from oblivion damage tics (Sloads) while cloaked (assuming ZOS fixes the DOT bug that breaks cloak). The counters to cloak that are available to other players last more than 2 seconds, so I don't think it would make NBs invulnerable to all damage with no counterplay.

Having such a brief immunity (which is triggered after being pulled out of cloak by another player), is an idea worth discussing as a way to address the 'all or nothing' functionality the skill currently has.

However, if you've already made up your mind on the issue, I suppose there is nothing further to discuss.

Metemsycosis

Fwiw. My opinion on cloak balance. Cloak stopping dots never made sense. But I think it should be possible to take damage and remain cloaked. I'd say not so to ground or instant aoe. If you are cloaked and take ground aoe you are pulled -- but would not be pulled from a poison inject tick or cripple tick, frex. You would be pulled by caltrops but also pulsar.

Thogard

Cloak is an interesting ability. I’m worried that regardless of what “should” be done to balance cloak, we’ll be limited by what the devs “can” do to balance cloak within the mechanics of the game and the mechanics of invisibility.