Hypocrysy of ESO's community

swippy

Getern wrote: »

Point is that the game used to be like that. And that, was beautiful. If u ask me, game was doing fine. In fact much better than it does now.

the game was definitely not doing much better back around launch, when there were much fewer players and the ones who wanted it to be awesome couldn't find it in their hearts to give a good review.

sidenote: i wish i had a text-to-speech program on this tablet. i'm reading these posts out loud and it's hilarious.

Getern

Pendrillion wrote: »

Ydrisselle wrote: »

Getern wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Dragonknights need to be unique (aka Dragonknights need to be tanks) VS I want to end-game DPS on my MagDK" in a nutshell.

So I think we can summarize your opinion: every tank should be a dragon knight, every melee dps should be a nightblade, every ranged dps should be a sorcerer, every healer should be a templar and every warden should go to Oblivion.

Nice. It would be a game which would be much less popular than the current ESO, and on the road to the death. I really hope you don't work as a game designer.

The thing is that we should seriously get rid of classes... I understand that ZOS still decided to build content around the holy trinity of DPS Tank Healer... But in my opinion that is something the MMO competitive community insists on. Because it makes it easier to have a designated person to blame if you wipe... And maybe some people like to compartmentalize the way they are used to.

Personally I would have loved something more open like Single player TES games provided. And don't bother... I have had heard every argument for and against that in the past 5 years. Also what really irks me to the max is the reason that we tried everything from hard and soft caps diminishing returns and damage mitigation buffs. But it is still possible to choose ONE damn Attribute pool and OUTCLASSING EVERYONE. Except for those who do copy your style... AND THEY DESIGN THE GAME AROUND THAT NOW... And you can outrun everything else by potentials just in focusing on one of your ressource pools... Well except Health... I mean you can invest in health... but you can only tank with a high health pool... Apparently...

3 attributes 5 classes and hundreds of abilities a majority of which are never used or deemed viable than the damn FOTM or META that comes along built by a streamer... What the hell... THATs the hypocrisy... And thats housemade. You don't need to resort to finger pointing and screaming at casuals... What kills a game is rampant elitism and leaving people behind the curve because they decide not playing by the imposed rules of your damn min max build. That affects EVERYTHING... Make itemzation ten times harder than it should be it leaves a wake of useless sets, cut off the Crafters from useable builds for endgame and inflated the economy...

I am so glad that we got the Housing... Its a grind fest and a "power"-creep in itself... But still way more rewarding than worrying either if my build gets nerfed or buffed next month or if I am allowed to queue with my hybrid DK or Templar or what have you...

Thats my "two cents"

Get a grip all and stew in your own created mess... I go furnish my next house...

I highly support the fact that elitists are refusing to play. In every possible way I am trying to discourage to every person I am dealing with. There are reasons for that. *** community, which in 90% changed around One Tamriel, but the biggest thing is what Zenimax is doing. Changes are outrages. You might tell, then adapt. What I can respond to you, I am definitely adapting way better, than u are. But I simply do not like the new ways. They are just worse and majority of veteran players will tell u exacly that.

Since almost 2 years I am comming up with idea to create 2.1-2.2 iteration Megaservers (with overland and trial adjustments) for veteran players. That way, you can play ur perfect game and I can play my perfect game.

idk wrote: »

The assumption is incorrect. One of the problems with assumptions.

By the end of the first month of this games release I had two characters into the vet ranks. By the end of the second month both were capped.

I expect that would not be considered lazy.

Even at it's original v10 I thought it was an absurd and meaningless design. It seems absurd that leveling from 1 to 50 were rewarded with having to level from v1 to v10 which was about twice as much.

That followed by a meaningless increase in the level cap after a mere one month to v12 then again before the end of the year to v14. When they made v16 the cap it was a complete joke. To worst leveling design in any MMORPG I have ever seen.

By this time Zos had clued it that it was an extremely short sighted idea to have a two tiered lvling system where the second tier was several times the effort of the first. It was just ridiculous.

However, the aspect of the vet ranks has nothing to do with what OP is attempting to say here. He is not complaining that he no longer has to grind XP for every character to get to v16.

I think he should rewrite his OP so it is clearer.

I mentioned Vet ranks for reason. I think u are missing the actual idea of Vet ranks to begin with. They were "Gear" progression system. While on the very begining it didnt have as much point it got more after 1.6. Also I dont like when people are getting everything they want for free. And yes 4 hours till lvl 50 is not a challange at all. Times when people played just a one chracter were way better. People at least knew how to play their class. They were known for something. Now? Its irrelevant. Another thing about grinding till v14-v16. Whenever I was making my alts I was able to get Mages and Fighters Guild for 10, I have unlocked ever class or weapon skill/passive I desired. Not even mentioning almost done Undaunted.

Chaos2088 wrote: »

I think the mission is to play any class to any role....with the final result that each class/role mix up would be a slightly different playstyle than the other.

If you want a fixed class doing only one role.....I don't think the future of this game is for you, not throwing shade just stating there has been alot of chat i have comer across lately of this subject....and well I am glad that ESO is heading in that direction. Why be like every other MMO??

Becasue that the default design of MMO? I can agree with class multitasking only when they are able to fullfil default's class role just as good, but without changes to abilities. Carried just by sets.

Waffennacht wrote: »

When a banned player becomes a Representative for Players...

Kinda have to agree with the hypocrisy you speak of

I dont remeber ever getting banned.

FireCowCommando wrote: »

I agree with the OP, class abilities that were too strong at one specific thing have been nerfed since Worbel took over combat lead. I don't remember every change, but the repeated nerfs to templars healing is one example. Rather than taking a look at how healing works in this game ZoS removes the strength of BoL to bring it in line.

This is not a bad way to approach any problem with regards to balance, but when used too frequently on too many abilities that are often considered class defining it becomes a serious issue.

A second example: [Templar] Cleansing ritual used to purge projectiles mid flight. This was taken away not because it was OP, but because the Developers believed it made combat feel weird. The enemy was shooting at me but there was no damage?! The limitations of the UI at that time left some players confused why there attack didn't connect, since this was unique to templar defensive PvP. (We know the 'why' in this situation since it was once explained to us by the developers themselves)

There are a great deal of examples between all the classes over the years in this direction, it would take too long for every ability on all classes. But, OP does have a point.

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO wrote: »

If your idea of class uniqueness is an IWIN button in a situation you're predestined to shine in, you need to reexamine your philosophy on game design. You just want to supplement a lack of skill with a niche so you still feel powerful, regardless of if you're actually good or bad at the game.

Hold up

If u played in pre DB iterations you would know that it worked exacly opposite. In fact it demanded more skill and knowledge resulting in more rewarding gameplay.

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Getern wrote: »

Ydrisselle wrote: »

Getern wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Dragonknights need to be unique (aka Dragonknights need to be tanks) VS I want to end-game DPS on my MagDK" in a nutshell.

Dragonknights were made for tanking and still thats the only acceptable class as tank for me. Fact that they do decent DPS is different thing. While DOTs classes should in fact do more damage, tho only slightly more than burst builds. Altough, are there any real burst build around? Not anymore. Nightblade and Sorceror is default DPS class, thats how it should be.

What I mostly mean by entire thread can be explained on example of Templar.
Repentance, iconic ability, one of few making Templars default healers. But hey, we want other class to not stay back too much, so we are nerfing the skill, so healing on other classes can be viable too. What kind of logic is this?
Not even mention changes to Shards, uniqness died with giving same effect to Orbs.

So I think we can summarize your opinion: every tank should be a dragon knight, every melee dps should be a nightblade, every ranged dps should be a sorcerer, every healer should be a templar and every warden should go to Oblivion.

Nice. It would be a game which would be much less popular than the current ESO, and on the road to the death. I really hope you don't work as a game designer.

Point is that the game used to be like that. And that, was beautiful. If u ask me, game was doing fine. In fact much better than it does now.

At what point in ESO's lifespan are you referring to because I remember everything pre Thieves Guild as pretty awful. Gear drops so rare that getting a full set of anything was a miracle (and the majority of them were really bad anyways), zones that were more dead than a funeral home, even world travel being gated behind Main Story progression, which in itself was locked behind level progression, were not high point of the game at all IMO.

Yup I mean exacly those times. Might have been a hard for casuals but thats good thing. I dont remember dropping a lot of a gear at those times. Bis stuff was pretty much crafted. And even if sets like Briarheart were hard to obtain is a good sign, meaning that u actually have to work for something. Zones had people yes, take into consideration it was pre 1T. That itself was giving that idea of TES game, while questing while no one was around. Main Story barier? nah you just had to do main zone's quests. Yup thats was great, nothing for free. No freaking straight away Riften while starting DC. In terms of elegance and quality of community game was definitely doing so much better. In terms of balance too, of course.

Gargath wrote: »

Getern wrote: »

Do u get what flag abilities are? In case of that skill it would be the other morph, the fact Liquid Lighning hasnt been nerfed yet is suprising. Nevertheless, morph still will be weaker than it counterpart.

Enlighten me about flag abilities. For me it's an ability that costs 2,9k magicka and can be easily spammed and deals a massive aoe damage: 3,5k-4k base (non-crit, unbuffed) damage per sec for 6 secs (or 3,5k dmg per sec for 10 secs).

You just exposed your l2p issues in terms of how DPSing works. Nuff said.

SkillzMFG

Rawkan wrote: »

This is an issue for almost every single popular MMO these days. Classes being reworked into "everyone can do everything". It's not accepted anymore that classes have different strengths and weaknesses, which removes the identity of the class.

I have no idea why anyone would spend that much time on alts to be honest. I can understand having one for each class, but people with like 15+ alts are complaining about "the grind" as if the game was made exclusively for people who want to do the exact same thing 15 times.

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

Low effort troll post. Only 3 out 10. Move along, nothing to see.

Adds nothing to the discussion, calls the OP a troll, classic low effort reply.

You want class identity and you want balance at the same time? These two don't go well together, make up your mind people.

Axoinus

Agree with OP. Unfortunately, this is the new normal now. It has gotten much worse since MMOs started building in PvP.

Rawkan

SkillzMFG wrote: »

You want class identity and you want balance at the same time? These two don't go well together, make up your mind people.

Perfect balance is never going to exist. Watering down the clases so they all feel the same is a bad idea. Why even have a class system at that point?

Avran_Sylt

Personally, I've begun to like the pseudo homogenization of core mechanical actions across the classes.

It's a more immersive experience, than say: You can't do this action because you're not [x].

If you were your character, you'd build around it, approach it from a different manner. This is the RPG aspect of MMORPG.

Say for the DK Chains ability. A DK has it built into their kit, and has a bunch of passives that go along with it (Years of practice and attunement). I'm not a DK, but I want to be able to pull in enemies to position them for my team. While I don't know how to use magic to pull in the enemies, I can at least fashion a physical method of pulling in enemies.

The player still needs to have the mechanical knowledge to properly apply the pulls, but you have access to it, a more bastardized version of it, but you have a selection based pull.




I do agree, however, that if it isn't part of your main kit, that you need to make sacrifices to bring it on par with a the 'natural' counterpart found by another class (and presumably honed with years of prior experience).

For example, Templar's Shards and their resource restore. As it stands now, the ability doesn't offer any unique flavor to the class. And is actually counter intuitive in comparison to a universal ability like Energy Orb.

Templar is a group buff/healer, yes? Yet the Undaunted one is the version that heals allies in the radius, and not Templar shards?
I'd swap that around, have energy orb damage enemies, and Templar shards heal players (with initial damage to enemies).

And in order to reach that kind of Templar resource restore ability that both heals and damages, you'd have to have a set or something.
Say the old PTS Olorime+Energy Orb.

But as it stands, Energy Orb is nowhere near bastardized enough in comparison to the Templar Shards.
(However, the argument does stand that since the two have different synergies, Templar essentially have a x2 uptime on the resource restore)

RebornV3x

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

Low effort troll post. Only 3 out 10. Move along, nothing to see.

Beat me too it but 3 our of 10 is generous with all the grammar mistakes and spelling errors this thread is a .5 out of 10 at best.

AlnilamE

Getern wrote: »

Ydrisselle wrote: »

Getern wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Dragonknights need to be unique (aka Dragonknights need to be tanks) VS I want to end-game DPS on my MagDK" in a nutshell.

Dragonknights were made for tanking and still thats the only acceptable class as tank for me. Fact that they do decent DPS is different thing. While DOTs classes should in fact do more damage, tho only slightly more than burst builds. Altough, are there any real burst build around? Not anymore. Nightblade and Sorceror is default DPS class, thats how it should be.

What I mostly mean by entire thread can be explained on example of Templar.
Repentance, iconic ability, one of few making Templars default healers. But hey, we want other class to not stay back too much, so we are nerfing the skill, so healing on other classes can be viable too. What kind of logic is this?
Not even mention changes to Shards, uniqness died with giving same effect to Orbs.

So I think we can summarize your opinion: every tank should be a dragon knight, every melee dps should be a nightblade, every ranged dps should be a sorcerer, every healer should be a templar and every warden should go to Oblivion.

Nice. It would be a game which would be much less popular than the current ESO, and on the road to the death. I really hope you don't work as a game designer.

Point is that the game used to be like that. And that, was beautiful. If u ask me, game was doing fine. In fact much better than it does now.

Kuwhar wrote: »

Ydrisselle wrote: »

Getern wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Dragonknights need to be unique (aka Dragonknights need to be tanks) VS I want to end-game DPS on my MagDK" in a nutshell.

Dragonknights were made for tanking and still thats the only acceptable class as tank for me. Fact that they do decent DPS is different thing. While DOTs classes should in fact do more damage, tho only slightly more than burst builds. Altough, are there any real burst build around? Not anymore. Nightblade and Sorceror is default DPS class, thats how it should be.

What I mostly mean by entire thread can be explained on example of Templar.
Repentance, iconic ability, one of few making Templars default healers. But hey, we want other class to not stay back too much, so we are nerfing the skill, so healing on other classes can be viable too. What kind of logic is this?
Not even mention changes to Shards, uniqness died with giving same effect to Orbs.

So I think we can summarize your opinion: every tank should be a dragon knight, every melee dps should be a nightblade, every ranged dps should be a sorcerer, every healer should be a templar and every warden should go to Oblivion.

Nice. It would be a game which would be much less popular than the current ESO, and on the road to the death. I really hope you don't work as a game designer.

Yeah I enjoy my Templar tank, haven't had any complaints or kicks.

Okay, but do u chain? Do u keep entire aggro in optimum area? Depends who u are dealing with, thats the roles u are suppose to fulfill. Considering that One Tamriel's mentality with effectivness died long ago, I am not suprised no one is complaining.

I healed with my nightblade long before I made a Templar. And when I made a Templar, she was a tank first. So your "old times" when things were "beautiful" don't actually exist other than in your own mind.

inf.toniceb17_ESO

As someone who made a stam DD NB with bow/bow on release, was forced to play with a staff instead, had to deal with weaving "feature" which i totally don't like and then decided that i actually like tanking more than DPSing but totally don't want to reroll a DK simply cuz of all that time and effort i've alredy put into my NB i fully approve of what ZOS are doing with class balance right now. And normally i hate everything that ZOS are doing to this game and bash 'em every time i get a chance lol.

ZOS_JesC

Greetings we've removed a few nonconstructive comments as well as some baiting. This is a friendly reminder that baiting is not permitted as outlined in our forum rules and could result in action being taken against your account. Thank you for your understanding. Please try and keep the thread on topic.

Silver_Strider

Getern wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Getern wrote: »

Ydrisselle wrote: »

Getern wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Dragonknights need to be unique (aka Dragonknights need to be tanks) VS I want to end-game DPS on my MagDK" in a nutshell.

Dragonknights were made for tanking and still thats the only acceptable class as tank for me. Fact that they do decent DPS is different thing. While DOTs classes should in fact do more damage, tho only slightly more than burst builds. Altough, are there any real burst build around? Not anymore. Nightblade and Sorceror is default DPS class, thats how it should be.

What I mostly mean by entire thread can be explained on example of Templar.
Repentance, iconic ability, one of few making Templars default healers. But hey, we want other class to not stay back too much, so we are nerfing the skill, so healing on other classes can be viable too. What kind of logic is this?
Not even mention changes to Shards, uniqness died with giving same effect to Orbs.

So I think we can summarize your opinion: every tank should be a dragon knight, every melee dps should be a nightblade, every ranged dps should be a sorcerer, every healer should be a templar and every warden should go to Oblivion.

Nice. It would be a game which would be much less popular than the current ESO, and on the road to the death. I really hope you don't work as a game designer.

Point is that the game used to be like that. And that, was beautiful. If u ask me, game was doing fine. In fact much better than it does now.

At what point in ESO's lifespan are you referring to because I remember everything pre Thieves Guild as pretty awful. Gear drops so rare that getting a full set of anything was a miracle (and the majority of them were really bad anyways), zones that were more dead than a funeral home, even world travel being gated behind Main Story progression, which in itself was locked behind level progression, were not high point of the game at all IMO.

Yup I mean exacly those times. Might have been a hard for casuals but thats good thing. I dont remember dropping a lot of a gear at those times. Bis stuff was pretty much crafted. And even if sets like Briarheart were hard to obtain is a good sign, meaning that u actually have to work for something. Zones had people yes, take into consideration it was pre 1T. That itself was giving that idea of TES game, while questing while no one was around. Main Story barier? nah you just had to do main zone's quests. Yup thats was great, nothing for free. No freaking straight away Riften while starting DC. In terms of elegance and quality of community game was definitely doing so much better. In terms of balance too, of course.

There was nothing particularly hard about those times, it was just more tedious than anything. Zones had few to no other players in them since you could only see your own alliance in them, meaning most zones were fairly empty. I remember going thru Cadwell's Silver and Gold on 3 characters and seeing another player was a rare occurrence and even then it was because I asked a guildie to come help me to trigger the group event in the Alik'r Public Dungeon (something I don't miss at all).
You had to do the Main Zone quests to advance in your Alliance but you had to complete the Main Quest to be able to go to Cadwell Silver and Gold zones. It had nothing to do with getting it for free, it was just a mindless grind thru a linear story. Now, the story just isn't linear anymore.

Not sure what you mean by elegance and I personally found the community to be no different from then and now, other than there being more people around; players could suck back then too, even after all that needless grinding thru Vet Ranks. I also don't think balance was better back then either because I don't agree with your philosophy of "DK = Best Tank, Templar = Best Healer".

Facefister

Getern wrote: »

Also one of the reasons why ESO is losing quality. Back in a day we used to have Veteran Ranks, roughly 2 years ago. While they were fullfiling their role for gear progession, were also not very liked by lazy community, which is like 80%? Just assumption. What we also had back in day was diversity. What I mean by that, is most classes used to be good at certain things. Point is over last years we were losing those values due to the fact that everyone on forums bitching for having same abilities for different classes. I have seen a lot of that. But all those people crawing removing class system same time has 10+ alts. What do you need them for tho, while u want unification? To do exacly same thing on every single one of them?

The worst part of all it, is the fact that Zose is actually slowly nerfing all class'es flag abilities when they can. With approval of community...

Blame PvP for that, and I am not even joking. Every MMO i've played, PvP was the main cause of homogenization of the classes.

Astrid

Agree. Personally dragonknights are tanks, templars are healers, nightblade and sorc are dd and wardens abit of a grey area. I think you should be allowed to play what role you wish with what class you wish - but end game content should follow above roles/classes. Unless you’re a hell of a good player and can make it work - trials and veteran content should follow what the class was built to do. Otherwise - please yourself. Weird combinations in pvp are interesting and I totally agree with them for variation in fights however.

Doctordarkspawn

Getern wrote: »

Ydrisselle wrote: »

Getern wrote: »

Ydrisselle wrote: »

Getern wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Dragonknights need to be unique (aka Dragonknights need to be tanks) VS I want to end-game DPS on my MagDK" in a nutshell.

Dragonknights were made for tanking and still thats the only acceptable class as tank for me. Fact that they do decent DPS is different thing. While DOTs classes should in fact do more damage, tho only slightly more than burst builds. Altough, are there any real burst build around? Not anymore. Nightblade and Sorceror is default DPS class, thats how it should be.

What I mostly mean by entire thread can be explained on example of Templar.
Repentance, iconic ability, one of few making Templars default healers. But hey, we want other class to not stay back too much, so we are nerfing the skill, so healing on other classes can be viable too. What kind of logic is this?
Not even mention changes to Shards, uniqness died with giving same effect to Orbs.

So I think we can summarize your opinion: every tank should be a dragon knight, every melee dps should be a nightblade, every ranged dps should be a sorcerer, every healer should be a templar and every warden should go to Oblivion.

Nice. It would be a game which would be much less popular than the current ESO, and on the road to the death. I really hope you don't work as a game designer.

Point is that the game used to be like that. And that, was beautiful. If u ask me, game was doing fine. In fact much better than it does now.

Kuwhar wrote: »

Ydrisselle wrote: »

Getern wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Dragonknights need to be unique (aka Dragonknights need to be tanks) VS I want to end-game DPS on my MagDK" in a nutshell.

Dragonknights were made for tanking and still thats the only acceptable class as tank for me. Fact that they do decent DPS is different thing. While DOTs classes should in fact do more damage, tho only slightly more than burst builds. Altough, are there any real burst build around? Not anymore. Nightblade and Sorceror is default DPS class, thats how it should be.

What I mostly mean by entire thread can be explained on example of Templar.
Repentance, iconic ability, one of few making Templars default healers. But hey, we want other class to not stay back too much, so we are nerfing the skill, so healing on other classes can be viable too. What kind of logic is this?
Not even mention changes to Shards, uniqness died with giving same effect to Orbs.

So I think we can summarize your opinion: every tank should be a dragon knight, every melee dps should be a nightblade, every ranged dps should be a sorcerer, every healer should be a templar and every warden should go to Oblivion.

Nice. It would be a game which would be much less popular than the current ESO, and on the road to the death. I really hope you don't work as a game designer.

Yeah I enjoy my Templar tank, haven't had any complaints or kicks.

Okay, but do u chain? Do u keep entire aggro in optimum area? Depends who u are dealing with, thats the roles u are suppose to fulfill. Considering that One Tamriel's mentality with effectivness died long ago, I am not suprised no one is complaining.

I'm quite sure there are more players now than it was in your ideally setup version of the game. There are less HC raider, I agree, but they are always a minority, and if the casuals leave the game, it's dead.

For me the game is dead already by being left just for casuals.

This is the real complaint. "Filthy casuals".

People who cant share probably dont do well in MMO's.

Waffennacht

Getern wrote: »

Pendrillion wrote: »

Ydrisselle wrote: »

Getern wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Dragonknights need to be unique (aka Dragonknights need to be tanks) VS I want to end-game DPS on my MagDK" in a nutshell.

So I think we can summarize your opinion: every tank should be a dragon knight, every melee dps should be a nightblade, every ranged dps should be a sorcerer, every healer should be a templar and every warden should go to Oblivion.

Nice. It would be a game which would be much less popular than the current ESO, and on the road to the death. I really hope you don't work as a game designer.

The thing is that we should seriously get rid of classes... I understand that ZOS still decided to build content around the holy trinity of DPS Tank Healer... But in my opinion that is something the MMO competitive community insists on. Because it makes it easier to have a designated person to blame if you wipe... And maybe some people like to compartmentalize the way they are used to.

Personally I would have loved something more open like Single player TES games provided. And don't bother... I have had heard every argument for and against that in the past 5 years. Also what really irks me to the max is the reason that we tried everything from hard and soft caps diminishing returns and damage mitigation buffs. But it is still possible to choose ONE damn Attribute pool and OUTCLASSING EVERYONE. Except for those who do copy your style... AND THEY DESIGN THE GAME AROUND THAT NOW... And you can outrun everything else by potentials just in focusing on one of your ressource pools... Well except Health... I mean you can invest in health... but you can only tank with a high health pool... Apparently...

3 attributes 5 classes and hundreds of abilities a majority of which are never used or deemed viable than the damn FOTM or META that comes along built by a streamer... What the hell... THATs the hypocrisy... And thats housemade. You don't need to resort to finger pointing and screaming at casuals... What kills a game is rampant elitism and leaving people behind the curve because they decide not playing by the imposed rules of your damn min max build. That affects EVERYTHING... Make itemzation ten times harder than it should be it leaves a wake of useless sets, cut off the Crafters from useable builds for endgame and inflated the economy...

I am so glad that we got the Housing... Its a grind fest and a "power"-creep in itself... But still way more rewarding than worrying either if my build gets nerfed or buffed next month or if I am allowed to queue with my hybrid DK or Templar or what have you...

Thats my "two cents"

Get a grip all and stew in your own created mess... I go furnish my next house...

I highly support the fact that elitists are refusing to play. In every possible way I am trying to discourage to every person I am dealing with. There are reasons for that. *** community, which in 90% changed around One Tamriel, but the biggest thing is what Zenimax is doing. Changes are outrages. You might tell, then adapt. What I can respond to you, I am definitely adapting way better, than u are. But I simply do not like the new ways. They are just worse and majority of veteran players will tell u exacly that.

Since almost 2 years I am comming up with idea to create 2.1-2.2 iteration Megaservers (with overland and trial adjustments) for veteran players. That way, you can play ur perfect game and I can play my perfect game.

idk wrote: »

The assumption is incorrect. One of the problems with assumptions.

By the end of the first month of this games release I had two characters into the vet ranks. By the end of the second month both were capped.

I expect that would not be considered lazy.

Even at it's original v10 I thought it was an absurd and meaningless design. It seems absurd that leveling from 1 to 50 were rewarded with having to level from v1 to v10 which was about twice as much.

That followed by a meaningless increase in the level cap after a mere one month to v12 then again before the end of the year to v14. When they made v16 the cap it was a complete joke. To worst leveling design in any MMORPG I have ever seen.

By this time Zos had clued it that it was an extremely short sighted idea to have a two tiered lvling system where the second tier was several times the effort of the first. It was just ridiculous.

However, the aspect of the vet ranks has nothing to do with what OP is attempting to say here. He is not complaining that he no longer has to grind XP for every character to get to v16.

I think he should rewrite his OP so it is clearer.

I mentioned Vet ranks for reason. I think u are missing the actual idea of Vet ranks to begin with. They were "Gear" progression system. While on the very begining it didnt have as much point it got more after 1.6. Also I dont like when people are getting everything they want for free. And yes 4 hours till lvl 50 is not a challange at all. Times when people played just a one chracter were way better. People at least knew how to play their class. They were known for something. Now? Its irrelevant. Another thing about grinding till v14-v16. Whenever I was making my alts I was able to get Mages and Fighters Guild for 10, I have unlocked ever class or weapon skill/passive I desired. Not even mentioning almost done Undaunted.

Chaos2088 wrote: »

I think the mission is to play any class to any role....with the final result that each class/role mix up would be a slightly different playstyle than the other.

If you want a fixed class doing only one role.....I don't think the future of this game is for you, not throwing shade just stating there has been alot of chat i have comer across lately of this subject....and well I am glad that ESO is heading in that direction. Why be like every other MMO??

Becasue that the default design of MMO? I can agree with class multitasking only when they are able to fullfil default's class role just as good, but without changes to abilities. Carried just by sets.

Waffennacht wrote: »

When a banned player becomes a Representative for Players...

Kinda have to agree with the hypocrisy you speak of

I dont remeber ever getting banned.

FireCowCommando wrote: »

I agree with the OP, class abilities that were too strong at one specific thing have been nerfed since Worbel took over combat lead. I don't remember every change, but the repeated nerfs to templars healing is one example. Rather than taking a look at how healing works in this game ZoS removes the strength of BoL to bring it in line.

This is not a bad way to approach any problem with regards to balance, but when used too frequently on too many abilities that are often considered class defining it becomes a serious issue.

A second example: [Templar] Cleansing ritual used to purge projectiles mid flight. This was taken away not because it was OP, but because the Developers believed it made combat feel weird. The enemy was shooting at me but there was no damage?! The limitations of the UI at that time left some players confused why there attack didn't connect, since this was unique to templar defensive PvP. (We know the 'why' in this situation since it was once explained to us by the developers themselves)

There are a great deal of examples between all the classes over the years in this direction, it would take too long for every ability on all classes. But, OP does have a point.

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO wrote: »

If your idea of class uniqueness is an IWIN button in a situation you're predestined to shine in, you need to reexamine your philosophy on game design. You just want to supplement a lack of skill with a niche so you still feel powerful, regardless of if you're actually good or bad at the game.

Hold up

If u played in pre DB iterations you would know that it worked exacly opposite. In fact it demanded more skill and knowledge resulting in more rewarding gameplay.

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Getern wrote: »

Ydrisselle wrote: »

Getern wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Dragonknights need to be unique (aka Dragonknights need to be tanks) VS I want to end-game DPS on my MagDK" in a nutshell.

Dragonknights were made for tanking and still thats the only acceptable class as tank for me. Fact that they do decent DPS is different thing. While DOTs classes should in fact do more damage, tho only slightly more than burst builds. Altough, are there any real burst build around? Not anymore. Nightblade and Sorceror is default DPS class, thats how it should be.

What I mostly mean by entire thread can be explained on example of Templar.
Repentance, iconic ability, one of few making Templars default healers. But hey, we want other class to not stay back too much, so we are nerfing the skill, so healing on other classes can be viable too. What kind of logic is this?
Not even mention changes to Shards, uniqness died with giving same effect to Orbs.

So I think we can summarize your opinion: every tank should be a dragon knight, every melee dps should be a nightblade, every ranged dps should be a sorcerer, every healer should be a templar and every warden should go to Oblivion.

Nice. It would be a game which would be much less popular than the current ESO, and on the road to the death. I really hope you don't work as a game designer.

Point is that the game used to be like that. And that, was beautiful. If u ask me, game was doing fine. In fact much better than it does now.

At what point in ESO's lifespan are you referring to because I remember everything pre Thieves Guild as pretty awful. Gear drops so rare that getting a full set of anything was a miracle (and the majority of them were really bad anyways), zones that were more dead than a funeral home, even world travel being gated behind Main Story progression, which in itself was locked behind level progression, were not high point of the game at all IMO.

Yup I mean exacly those times. Might have been a hard for casuals but thats good thing. I dont remember dropping a lot of a gear at those times. Bis stuff was pretty much crafted. And even if sets like Briarheart were hard to obtain is a good sign, meaning that u actually have to work for something. Zones had people yes, take into consideration it was pre 1T. That itself was giving that idea of TES game, while questing while no one was around. Main Story barier? nah you just had to do main zone's quests. Yup thats was great, nothing for free. No freaking straight away Riften while starting DC. In terms of elegance and quality of community game was definitely doing so much better. In terms of balance too, of course.

Gargath wrote: »

Getern wrote: »

Do u get what flag abilities are? In case of that skill it would be the other morph, the fact Liquid Lighning hasnt been nerfed yet is suprising. Nevertheless, morph still will be weaker than it counterpart.

Enlighten me about flag abilities. For me it's an ability that costs 2,9k magicka and can be easily spammed and deals a massive aoe damage: 3,5k-4k base (non-crit, unbuffed) damage per sec for 6 secs (or 3,5k dmg per sec for 10 secs).

You just exposed your l2p issues in terms of how DPSing works. Nuff said.

I honestly have never seen your name before this thread

Edit: my post wasn't directed at you, but was using your point. I'll just delete it if it's there still

Edit edit: I prefer a larger community because I want the game to continue. Less players means less money, less money means no more game. And it's not like console has a lot of choices

Merlin13KAGL

Kuwhar wrote: »

Ydrisselle wrote: »

Getern wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Dragonknights need to be unique (aka Dragonknights need to be tanks) VS I want to end-game DPS on my MagDK" in a nutshell.

Dragonknights were made for tanking and still thats the only acceptable class as tank for me. Fact that they do decent DPS is different thing. While DOTs classes should in fact do more damage, tho only slightly more than burst builds. Altough, are there any real burst build around? Not anymore. Nightblade and Sorceror is default DPS class, thats how it should be.

What I mostly mean by entire thread can be explained on example of Templar.
Repentance, iconic ability, one of few making Templars default healers. But hey, we want other class to not stay back too much, so we are nerfing the skill, so healing on other classes can be viable too. What kind of logic is this?
Not even mention changes to Shards, uniqness died with giving same effect to Orbs.

So I think we can summarize your opinion: every tank should be a dragon knight, every melee dps should be a nightblade, every ranged dps should be a sorcerer, every healer should be a templar and every warden should go to Oblivion.

Nice. It would be a game which would be much less popular than the current ESO, and on the road to the death. I really hope you don't work as a game designer.

Yeah I enjoy my Templar tank, haven't had any complaints or kicks.

I'm guessing you're also not tanking vet trials, either?

Classes are still limited, at least as far as end game is concerned. Then you add racials on top of that and it becomes limited even further.

There are far to many obviously overpowered or easier to run/achieve builds than there should be.

They've tried to open that up with some recent morph changes, but whether it will truly have the desired effect remains to be seen.

Silver_Strider

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Kuwhar wrote: »

Ydrisselle wrote: »

Getern wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Dragonknights need to be unique (aka Dragonknights need to be tanks) VS I want to end-game DPS on my MagDK" in a nutshell.

Dragonknights were made for tanking and still thats the only acceptable class as tank for me. Fact that they do decent DPS is different thing. While DOTs classes should in fact do more damage, tho only slightly more than burst builds. Altough, are there any real burst build around? Not anymore. Nightblade and Sorceror is default DPS class, thats how it should be.

What I mostly mean by entire thread can be explained on example of Templar.
Repentance, iconic ability, one of few making Templars default healers. But hey, we want other class to not stay back too much, so we are nerfing the skill, so healing on other classes can be viable too. What kind of logic is this?
Not even mention changes to Shards, uniqness died with giving same effect to Orbs.

So I think we can summarize your opinion: every tank should be a dragon knight, every melee dps should be a nightblade, every ranged dps should be a sorcerer, every healer should be a templar and every warden should go to Oblivion.

Nice. It would be a game which would be much less popular than the current ESO, and on the road to the death. I really hope you don't work as a game designer.

Yeah I enjoy my Templar tank, haven't had any complaints or kicks.

I'm guessing you're also not tanking vet trials, either?

Classes are still limited, at least as far as end game is concerned. Then you add racials on top of that and it becomes limited even further.

There are far to many obviously overpowered or easier to run/achieve builds than there should be.

They've tried to open that up with some recent morph changes, but whether it will truly have the desired effect remains to be seen.

Idk, I've seen a surprising number of off choice tanks recently in Trial; had a few Templar Tanks in vHRC and vSO that did surprisingly well, even saw my 1st ever legit Sorc Tank in vAA.
Maybe DLC trials should be the new standard but even then, there's been off choice tank choices in vMoL as well.

starkerealm

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Kuwhar wrote: »

Ydrisselle wrote: »

Getern wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Dragonknights need to be unique (aka Dragonknights need to be tanks) VS I want to end-game DPS on my MagDK" in a nutshell.

Dragonknights were made for tanking and still thats the only acceptable class as tank for me. Fact that they do decent DPS is different thing. While DOTs classes should in fact do more damage, tho only slightly more than burst builds. Altough, are there any real burst build around? Not anymore. Nightblade and Sorceror is default DPS class, thats how it should be.

What I mostly mean by entire thread can be explained on example of Templar.
Repentance, iconic ability, one of few making Templars default healers. But hey, we want other class to not stay back too much, so we are nerfing the skill, so healing on other classes can be viable too. What kind of logic is this?
Not even mention changes to Shards, uniqness died with giving same effect to Orbs.

So I think we can summarize your opinion: every tank should be a dragon knight, every melee dps should be a nightblade, every ranged dps should be a sorcerer, every healer should be a templar and every warden should go to Oblivion.

Nice. It would be a game which would be much less popular than the current ESO, and on the road to the death. I really hope you don't work as a game designer.

Yeah I enjoy my Templar tank, haven't had any complaints or kicks.

I'm guessing you're also not tanking vet trials, either?

Classes are still limited, at least as far as end game is concerned. Then you add racials on top of that and it becomes limited even further.

There are far to many obviously overpowered or easier to run/achieve builds than there should be.

They've tried to open that up with some recent morph changes, but whether it will truly have the desired effect remains to be seen.

Idk, I've seen a surprising number of off choice tanks recently in Trial; had a few Templar Tanks in vHRC and vSO that did surprisingly well, even saw my 1st ever legit Sorc Tank in vAA.
Maybe DLC trials should be the new standard but even then, there's been off choice tank choices in vMoL as well.

I've been running a sorc tank for years. But, yeah, Summerset just opened the tool box for Sorcs, Templars, and Nightblades. I'm still not 100% sold on TempTanks, (I know they work, just not wild about the idea), but SorcTanks are in a very happy place right now.

Orange_fire_dragon

Getern wrote: »

Ydrisselle wrote: »

Getern wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Dragonknights need to be unique (aka Dragonknights need to be tanks) VS I want to end-game DPS on my MagDK" in a nutshell.

Dragonknights were made for tanking and still thats the only acceptable class as tank for me. Fact that they do decent DPS is different thing. While DOTs classes should in fact do more damage, tho only slightly more than burst builds. Altough, are there any real burst build around? Not anymore. Nightblade and Sorceror is default DPS class, thats how it should be.

What I mostly mean by entire thread can be explained on example of Templar.
Repentance, iconic ability, one of few making Templars default healers. But hey, we want other class to not stay back too much, so we are nerfing the skill, so healing on other classes can be viable too. What kind of logic is this?
Not even mention changes to Shards, uniqness died with giving same effect to Orbs.

So I think we can summarize your opinion: every tank should be a dragon knight, every melee dps should be a nightblade, every ranged dps should be a sorcerer, every healer should be a templar and every warden should go to Oblivion.

Nice. It would be a game which would be much less popular than the current ESO, and on the road to the death. I really hope you don't work as a game designer.

Point is that the game used to be like that. And that, was beautiful. If u ask me, game was doing fine. In fact much better than it does now.

Kuwhar wrote: »

Ydrisselle wrote: »

Getern wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Dragonknights need to be unique (aka Dragonknights need to be tanks) VS I want to end-game DPS on my MagDK" in a nutshell.

Dragonknights were made for tanking and still thats the only acceptable class as tank for me. Fact that they do decent DPS is different thing. While DOTs classes should in fact do more damage, tho only slightly more than burst builds. Altough, are there any real burst build around? Not anymore. Nightblade and Sorceror is default DPS class, thats how it should be.

What I mostly mean by entire thread can be explained on example of Templar.
Repentance, iconic ability, one of few making Templars default healers. But hey, we want other class to not stay back too much, so we are nerfing the skill, so healing on other classes can be viable too. What kind of logic is this?
Not even mention changes to Shards, uniqness died with giving same effect to Orbs.

So I think we can summarize your opinion: every tank should be a dragon knight, every melee dps should be a nightblade, every ranged dps should be a sorcerer, every healer should be a templar and every warden should go to Oblivion.

Nice. It would be a game which would be much less popular than the current ESO, and on the road to the death. I really hope you don't work as a game designer.

Yeah I enjoy my Templar tank, haven't had any complaints or kicks.

Okay, but do u chain? Do u keep entire aggro in optimum area? Depends who u are dealing with, thats the roles u are suppose to fulfill. Considering that One Tamriel's mentality with effectivness died long ago, I am not suprised no one is complaining.

Fighter's guild ability now allows to chain aswell which actually is more effective on templar tank because of repentance. Since the chain is stamina based and not magicka.

Previous to Summerset changes, with templar tank you would take as much advance as possible from line of sighting which tbh happens a lot in vet dungeons regardless if you run dk tank or not... more efficient groups round up whole bunch of mobs and runs behind a corner and kills them with aoe dots. Barely need chains.

Spottswoode

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyChangedItNowItSucks

ZOS_JesC

Greetings, since the thread has since derailed, we've decided to remove several comments and close the thread.