Zenimax, why do you keep shafting Stamina players in PvE?

BloodMagicLord

I am not the sort of person who usually makes these kinds of posts, but I have had enough of this and am on the brink of quitting PvE altogether.
This has been going on gradually for nearly a year now, first we had Asylum released which was structured in such a way that stamina was objectively worse than magicka, now you released another "trial" (i.e. half assed mini trial, please stop doing this) where, again, stamina is not really viable to the point where people are saying that anything beyond a +0 attempt is best off with ZERO stamina players in the group, and alongside that you have nerfed the base damage that we got from a number of sources and completely destroyed most of what made optimized stamina camps good in raids.
Is there someone who makes these decisions who doesn't really care about gameplay or balance and just decided to do this because it's Summerset and high elves like magic so stamina should be extra trash for a patch? Or is it just random oversights based on incompetence?
In any case, I get the impression that nobody at ZOS cares about making anything balanced, they just get silly ideas and plough ahead with them, to hell with whose class we ruin along the way.

I am aware that in the past magicka has been treated similarly, although perhaps not over such a long period of time, I don't know, I've only been doing raids for around a year, but i'm not sure if this is meant to compensate for that. I don't see why you can't take a less aggressive method with how you go about balancing the game, instead of making a plethora of changes all geared towards nerfing stamina or whatever else all at once, why don't you make a few of the changes in a smaller patch, then wait and see how it impacts the metagame before proceeding further a month or so later? Did you really need to nerf damage from abilities, stamina supportive sets, and release another trial where stamina is practically useless all at the same time? Probably not.

The TES principle of "Play as you want" is completely dead in ESO, decisions are clearly being made by madmen who have this principle nowhere in their minds and only want to make the game look as close as possible to whatever themed fantasies they have in their mind currently.

Mister_DMC

Agreed

Secilina

stamina is fully capable in the new trial, t the moment we are running 2/3 stams and having no problems in fact its helpful to have vigor for the oblivion damage, yes there are some groups like Hodor that run no stams and that is up to them.

As for nerfing stamina damage its still higher than mag but its more even now which is exactly what ZOS tried to do with some balance changes to dps overall.

If you don't like how ZOS are doing things then just don't play but this is one of the most balanced patches that has come out since Morrowind release.

I agree that nerfing both sets at once was a bit over the top but it hasn't made a drastic change to how stamina dd's deal damage.

biggda76

Constant complaining on stamina is pointless imho. People keep saying that stamina is dead but it's more toned and and balanced. Magicka damage was really lower than stamina in trials, now they are performing on similar level.

Stamina in Asylum & Cloudrest is totally viable and good. Most people don't play in too often there just because it can be harder but it's totally viable. I honestly feel like stamina players constantly say that they are worse than magicka, or stamina is dead for some reason even though it's totally fine and for long time stamina was pulling crazy high numbers.

As for sets yea it's kinda stiupid but oh well, what can we do.

Overall, stamina is totally viable and good in every trial and I agree it's more toned down and balanced at the moment.

BloodMagicLord

Biggda you obviously didn't even read my post, I literally said that magicka has been worse than stamina in the past.

"yes there are some groups like Hodor that run no stams and that is up to them."
Why do you think the best guilds choose to run one or no stamina dds in these trials? Could it maybe be because... *gasp* stamina is bad in these trials compared to magicka? Why on earth would you release 2 trials in a row with this same characteristic?

If you think that stamina and magicka are being treated equally right now you're completely delusional.

NyassaV

vAS is 30% of why Strife got nerfed for stupid reasons. I can't wait to see them buff stamina for stupid reasons while not actually fixing the problem

biggda76

BloodMagicLord wrote: »

Biggda you obviously didn't even read my post, I literally said that magicka has been worse than stamina in the past.

"yes there are some groups like Hodor that run no stams and that is up to them."
Why do you think the best guilds choose to run one or no stamina dds in these trials? Could it maybe be because... *gasp* stamina is bad in these trials compared to magicka? Why on earth would you release 2 trials in a row with this same characteristic?

If you think that stamina and magicka are being treated equally right now you're completely delusional.

I did, just pointing out that it's toned down atm
I felt pretty good in cloudrest on stamina, and I don't think there is much problem in there, maybe with sustain, casting hail when main boss ports can be pretty annyoing but I strongly believe it's totally fine there.

mr_wazzabi

biggda76 wrote: »

Constant complaining on stamina is pointless imho. People keep saying that stamina is dead but it's more toned and and balanced. Magicka damage was really lower than stamina in trials, now they are performing on similar level.

Stamina in Asylum & Cloudrest is totally viable and good. Most people don't play in too often there just because it can be harder but it's totally viable. I honestly feel like stamina players constantly say that they are worse than magicka, or stamina is dead for some reason even though it's totally fine and for long time stamina was pulling crazy high numbers.

As for sets yea it's kinda stiupid but oh well, what can we do.

Overall, stamina is totally viable and good in every trial and I agree it's more toned down and balanced at the moment.

If it can be harder, but damage is equal, why play it? That's the basis of the op's arguement.

When stam had higher damage, it was a risk reward thing. The harder class to play had higher damage with sunderflame and nmg. Now that they nerfed both, trial groups would only take stam players that are friends with the leader as it's much more effort to gain the same result.

JobooAGS

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

biggda76 wrote: »

Constant complaining on stamina is pointless imho. People keep saying that stamina is dead but it's more toned and and balanced. Magicka damage was really lower than stamina in trials, now they are performing on similar level.

Stamina in Asylum & Cloudrest is totally viable and good. Most people don't play in too often there just because it can be harder but it's totally viable. I honestly feel like stamina players constantly say that they are worse than magicka, or stamina is dead for some reason even though it's totally fine and for long time stamina was pulling crazy high numbers.

As for sets yea it's kinda stiupid but oh well, what can we do.

Overall, stamina is totally viable and good in every trial and I agree it's more toned down and balanced at the moment.

If it can be harder, but damage is equal, why play it? That's the basis of the op's arguement.

When stam had higher damage, it was a risk reward thing. The harder class to play had higher damage with sunderflame and nmg. Now that they nerfed both, trial groups would only take stam players that are friends with the leader as it's much more effort to gain the same result.

This, people take the path of least resistance. Lets say there are 2 classes that pull the highest dps in the game, but class 1 has a much more complex and harder rotation than class 2. Class 1 is perfectly viable and can therortically pull the same numbers as class 2. However, class 1 is not seen in endgame score runs. Can you guess why?

JobooAGS

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

biggda76 wrote: »

Constant complaining on stamina is pointless imho. People keep saying that stamina is dead but it's more toned and and balanced. Magicka damage was really lower than stamina in trials, now they are performing on similar level.

Stamina in Asylum & Cloudrest is totally viable and good. Most people don't play in too often there just because it can be harder but it's totally viable. I honestly feel like stamina players constantly say that they are worse than magicka, or stamina is dead for some reason even though it's totally fine and for long time stamina was pulling crazy high numbers.

As for sets yea it's kinda stiupid but oh well, what can we do.

Overall, stamina is totally viable and good in every trial and I agree it's more toned down and balanced at the moment.

If it can be harder, but damage is equal, why play it? That's the basis of the op's arguement.

When stam had higher damage, it was a risk reward thing. The harder class to play had higher damage with sunderflame and nmg. Now that they nerfed both, trial groups would only take stam players that are friends with the leader as it's much more effort to gain the same result.

Or that class 1 and class 2 have equally complex rotations, but class 1 is solely melee but class 2 is ranged

Baz

JobooAGS wrote: »

This, people take the path of least resistance. Lets say there are 2 classes that pull the highest dps in the game, but class 1 has a much more complex and harder rotation than class 2. Class 1 is perfectly viable and can therortically pull the same numbers as class 2. However, class 1 is not seen in endgame score runs. Can you guess why?

Like Morrowind/HotR with stamDK against stamNB

Slick_007

BloodMagicLord wrote: »

The TES principle of "Play as you want" is completely dead in ESO

i love it when people quote this totally out of context to suit their rant.

Jowrik

BloodMagicLord wrote: »

Biggda you obviously didn't even read my post, I literally said that magicka has been worse than stamina in the past.

"yes there are some groups like Hodor that run no stams and that is up to them."
Why do you think the best guilds choose to run one or no stamina dds in these trials? Could it maybe be because... *gasp* stamina is bad in these trials compared to magicka? Why on earth would you release 2 trials in a row with this same characteristic?

If you think that stamina and magicka are being treated equally right now you're completely delusional.

Stamina may be less preferred in trials, but that's not because stamina is dead per se. Content just is way harder playing stam (and has a little less dmg this patch though still higher than some magicka classes).

Also, just because HODOR did it with only magicka doesn't mean stamina is banned from that content, or VERY bad at it even. They can do just fine (even Bow only, moreso than melee i'd say for vCR/vAS). Unless you wanna be top of the bill (read: world first achievements or competing for those same spots) you can't say stamina is bad. You probably won't hit the leaderboard as high with mainly stam DD, true. Do you always just copycat what other guilds/players do without thinking or trying yourself? How much have you been top of the bill, right where HODOR is at currently? If you have, by all means please play full magicka setups for those elitist numbers but don't go shouting stamina is bad because HODOR did it without.

ashl3y44

Jowrik wrote: »

BloodMagicLord wrote: »

Biggda you obviously didn't even read my post, I literally said that magicka has been worse than stamina in the past.

"yes there are some groups like Hodor that run no stams and that is up to them."
Why do you think the best guilds choose to run one or no stamina dds in these trials? Could it maybe be because... *gasp* stamina is bad in these trials compared to magicka? Why on earth would you release 2 trials in a row with this same characteristic?

If you think that stamina and magicka are being treated equally right now you're completely delusional.

Stamina may be less preferred in trials, but that's not because stamina is dead per se. Content just is way harder playing stam (and has a little less dmg this patch though still higher than some magicka classes).

Also, just because HODOR did it with only magicka doesn't mean stamina is banned from that content, or VERY bad at it even. They can do just fine (even Bow only, moreso than melee i'd say for vCR/vAS). Unless you wanna be top of the bill (read: world first achievements or competing for those same spots) you can't say stamina is bad. You probably won't hit the leaderboard as high with mainly stam DD, true. Do you always just copycat what other guilds/players do without thinking or trying yourself? How much have you been top of the bill, right where HODOR is at currently? If you have, by all means please play full magicka setups for those elitist numbers but don't go shouting stamina is bad because HODOR did it without.

The problem is exactly that. Everyone wants to be competive so if HODOR is only bringing magic, then other guilds will only bring magic. On Xbox you can’t even get in an asylum plus 1 unless you play magic. Correct that you can only get in asylum runs if you play and are good at magic. And everyone wants BIS. It’s the mentality of this game. Literally now that guilds completed it with mostly magblades, you can guarantee once it comes to console there will be no stam in that trial. These good guilds that everyone holds high and helpful need to help us out and start clearing these trials with stam. We will only ever get a chance to clear them on magic which means half of us won’t even clear it. Because no one will consider stam for it

BloodMagicLord

Lol I am loving these arguments where you literally admit that stamina is worse than magicka, or word it differently like "the content is harder on stamina", but you can still clear the content with stam dds so it's okay, apparently.

Raiding is competitive, people don't want to take the lesser or harder options for score runs. As someone else alluded to, you want the path of least resistance that allows you to progress towards clearing that content at the highest difficulty, and then towards being the best guild at doing so.

JobooAGS

Jowrik wrote: »

BloodMagicLord wrote: »

Biggda you obviously didn't even read my post, I literally said that magicka has been worse than stamina in the past.

"yes there are some groups like Hodor that run no stams and that is up to them."
Why do you think the best guilds choose to run one or no stamina dds in these trials? Could it maybe be because... *gasp* stamina is bad in these trials compared to magicka? Why on earth would you release 2 trials in a row with this same characteristic?

If you think that stamina and magicka are being treated equally right now you're completely delusional.

Stamina may be less preferred in trials, but that's not because stamina is dead per se. Content just is way harder playing stam (and has a little less dmg this patch though still higher than some magicka classes).

Also, just because HODOR did it with only magicka doesn't mean stamina is banned from that content, or VERY bad at it even. They can do just fine (even Bow only, moreso than melee i'd say for vCR/vAS). Unless you wanna be top of the bill (read: world first achievements or competing for those same spots) you can't say stamina is bad. You probably won't hit the leaderboard as high with mainly stam DD, true. Do you always just copycat what other guilds/players do without thinking or trying yourself? How much have you been top of the bill, right where HODOR is at currently? If you have, by all means please play full magicka setups for those elitist numbers but don't go shouting stamina is bad because HODOR did it without.

See my post about path of least resistance

BloodMagicLord

Stamina's sole appeal was optimized groups of melee dds that could produce very high but predominately single target damage. We lack the range of ranged players (well duh), have less survivability, in some cases less sustain, in some cases less burst damage which is much better for trials like Cloudrest where stuff moves around a lot.

With all of this taken into account, and the one primary reason that stamina was chosen over magicka gone completely, please somebody tell me why any group oriented towards optimized score progression runs would choose stamina over magicka.

WrathOfInnos

From what I’ve seen, stamina parses are higher than ever before. I think it is mostly relequen that is giving the boost, but the ability to run heavy sets like Ravager or Advancing Yokeda on weapons and jewelry with good traits has also helped.

XxCaLxX

I play both stamina and magicka dps so I’m not biased to either side. I don’t like the changes. Stamina should pull more damage than magicka. Stamina DD’s are right up in the fight with what kind of defense? Whatever the group has to offer mainly. Magicka doesn’t have to be on the front line. On magsorc with 55k magicka I can literally get flawless runs on VMA with spamming shields in between heavy attacks. Can you do that on stam? Where’s the balance on that? If the dps between stamina and magicka is going to be balanced then shouldn’t survivability be balanced too?

serrintine

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

From what I’ve seen, stamina parses are higher than ever before. I think it is mostly relequen that is giving the boost, but the ability to run heavy sets like Ravager or Advancing Yokeda on weapons and jewelry with good traits has also helped.

This brings up a more nuanced point about stam vs mag. I play both specs so hopefully folks can give me credit for an unbiased discussion. Stam is still pulling higher numbers than mag, but only with Relequen + retraited heavy set, and also stamblade is markedly ahead of the rest (to the point that a magblade can probably beat a stamdk).

On a bow/bow build, stam is underperforming against magblades. On a bow/bow build you also cannot run Advancing Yokeda or Ravager since you cannot give up Maelstrom and Master bows (and also you don't do enough melee damage to proc ravager anyway). If you do choose to run an Advancing Yokeda bow, you will not see much of a dps boost over a Master bow.

And lastly, it's very difficult to keep up Relequen and Advancing Yokeda in trials like vAS and vCR, which also happen to be the newest and shiniest content that people want to tackle and the point of contention for the OP. So for path of least resistance, people will probably *strongly* encourage damage dealers to switch to mag for the newest trials.

Katahdin

I agree with the OP. My achievements character is a stamblade. He has done almost every dungeon on vet (most of them with pugs), all the base ones on HM, vAA, vSO, vHRC.

I've been told that I would not be welcome on a vAS run with a stamblade because the mechanics of vAS requires ranged dps.

The guild leader said the same about vCR

This is wrong on so many levels. I should not have to switch my build to magicka to complete that content. All content should require a balanced team of both stam and magicka.

If what some people above are saying is true and stam is fine in vAS, vHoF and vCR then that guess it means I'm looking for a new guild to do that content with. If anyone has one, let me know please.

ashl3y44

Katahdin wrote: »

I agree with the OP. My achievements character is a stamblade. He has done almost every dungeon on vet (most of them with pugs), all the base ones on HM, vAA, vSO, vHRC.

I've been told that I would not be welcome on a vAS run with a stamblade because the mechanics of vAS requires ranged dps.

The guild leader said the same about vCR

This is wrong on so many levels. I should not have to switch my build to magicka to complete that content. All content should require a balanced team of both stam and magicka.

If what some people above are saying is true and stam is fine in vAS, vHoF and vCR then that guess it means I'm looking for a new guild to do that content with. If anyone has one, let me know please.

Stam is definitely fine I’m VHOF I run my stam sorc in there all the time. But I do agree with the rest.

XiDiabolismiX

Y’all have to remember when comparing Hodor or even some other top guilds to random, everyday groups is like comparing apples to oranges. Top end guilds run their setups because they work the best to give them the biggest burns, for the fastest times, to get the biggest score, period. Mad props to those guys.

If you’re looking for a regular Joe Schmo clear, then yeah you can probably get away with running stam in vAS and cloudrest, but.... you’re not going to achieve anything fantastic other than a clear.

That’s where the disparities lie when people bring up topics like this. Yes, it is significantly easier on all magic, but if you’re not running for scores, who cares?

On a side note, the comment about stam and mag hitting equal is a good thing.... not by a long shot lol. Stam has to be up in the bosses ass to deal damage with only a block/dodge roll and possibly vigor to keep them alive. Magic can block/shield/better self heal and be able to stand outside of most boss mechanics. This is why I think stam should always hit higher, because the risk is far greater and you need reliable, survivable players to play them.

ATomiX96

Yea idk, Zos didnt factor in Risk/Reward, shafted optimized groups first with off-balance changes now with stamina debuff set changes, made Trials where hardmodes are pretty much impossible as a stam (maybe 1 stamplar for minor fracture/breach (potl) but thats it).
I understand that ZOS wanted to bring mag and stam DDs a bit closer together, but what they did isnt the right aproach.
Dragon Bones was perfectly fine IMO stam / magicka wise, so i dont understand why they nerfed stamina and pushed another "MINI-TRIAL" (Asylum Reskinned +1 extra boss) where the hardmodes heavily favor magicka DDs due to shields, mobility, sustain (looking at you magblade) and range.

Also they kinda need seperate balance for pve and pvp like other games, but w/e. /2cents

ResTandRespeC

Jowrik wrote: »

BloodMagicLord wrote: »

Biggda you obviously didn't even read my post, I literally said that magicka has been worse than stamina in the past.

"yes there are some groups like Hodor that run no stams and that is up to them."
Why do you think the best guilds choose to run one or no stamina dds in these trials? Could it maybe be because... *gasp* stamina is bad in these trials compared to magicka? Why on earth would you release 2 trials in a row with this same characteristic?

If you think that stamina and magicka are being treated equally right now you're completely delusional.

Stamina may be less preferred in trials, but that's not because stamina is dead per se. Content just is way harder playing stam (and has a little less dmg this patch though still higher than some magicka classes).

Also, just because HODOR did it with only magicka doesn't mean stamina is banned from that content, or VERY bad at it even. They can do just fine (even Bow only, moreso than melee i'd say for vCR/vAS). Unless you wanna be top of the bill (read: world first achievements or competing for those same spots) you can't say stamina is bad. You probably won't hit the leaderboard as high with mainly stam DD, true. Do you always just copycat what other guilds/players do without thinking or trying yourself? How much have you been top of the bill, right where HODOR is at currently? If you have, by all means please play full magicka setups for those elitist numbers but don't go shouting stamina is bad because HODOR did it without.

There are 11 others in a trial, no one wants to be the 1 that's dying more, doing less damage, and/or holding a group back. What sucks about being in these new mini-trials as stam is that they will be doing less damage, providing less support (magblade heals other group members with their spamables), and in most cases dying more often and just generally have less survivability. Why most raid leaders tell the other group members to go magic goes to the fact that they are looking out for the best interest of others in the group, to complete the content in a timely manner. That's not on anyone but the developers for making content where 50% of classes don't have a reasonable place.

dtsharples

I think what you are saying is the content is harder for Melee! *** all to do with Stamina.
A lot of 1st time clears are done with all ranged players, as it is much more forgiving and allows you to almost bypass some mechanics.
If you want to cry over a class not being taken seriously in PVE for, what, 18months? Try MagPlar or MagDK.
Then you can whine like a baby over losing 2k DPS.

lolfarris

Mag is definitely more preferred in the current climate. My stam is one of the best DD’s in my guild and is constantly shelfed in favor of my subpar mag for harder content.

BloodMagicLord

dtsharples wrote: »

Then you can whine like a baby over losing 2k DPS.

Dear me. There always has to be the one "special" guy in every thread.
If you think this is just about losing 2k dps, then you have obviously failed to read the thread, or shown that you lack the intelligence required to understand it, or you are just inexperienced and have no idea what you're talking about.

In any case, please step back and let the adults have their discussion.

BloodMagicLord

XiDiabolismiX wrote: »

Y’all have to remember when comparing Hodor or even some other top guilds to random, everyday groups is like comparing apples to oranges. Top end guilds run their setups because they work the best to give them the biggest burns, for the fastest times, to get the biggest score, period. Mad props to those guys.

If you’re looking for a regular Joe Schmo clear, then yeah you can probably get away with running stam in vAS and cloudrest, but.... you’re not going to achieve anything fantastic other than a clear.

That’s where the disparities lie when people bring up topics like this. Yes, it is significantly easier on all magic, but if you’re not running for scores, who cares?

On a side note, the comment about stam and mag hitting equal is a good thing.... not by a long shot lol. Stam has to be up in the bosses ass to deal damage with only a block/dodge roll and possibly vigor to keep them alive. Magic can block/shield/better self heal and be able to stand outside of most boss mechanics. This is why I think stam should always hit higher, because the risk is far greater and you need reliable, survivable players to play them.

Of course for casual runs it doesn't matter, but the fact that I started the thread by talking about class balance and some types of builds being underpowered or less suited than others sorta precludes that whole line of discussion as irrelevant. And honestly, I don't think it makes the fact that they have released 2 magicka-favoring trials in a row any less acceptable just because it doesn't really matter to "casual" raiders.
And I find it hard to imagine that the majority of players doing these trials are casual and don't want to progress into scoreruns and aim for eventual achievements, skins and hardmode clears. What is the point in even doing veteran otherwise, you can get all of the gear on normal as far as I am aware.

BloodMagicLord

With exception of perfected asylum weapons i guess

XiDiabolismiX

That’s where you cross the threshold of casual runs turning into leaderboard runs/harder content. Being in the end game community, you need to understand that the class you love to play will be benched from patch to patch. That’s why a lot of us run multiple classes for that reason.

I use to consider my stamina dk my main, until vAS and now vCR. They just don’t work. So I rolled a magic class of all my stam classes to stay up to date and consistent. It is extremely tough work to stay on your game in harder content, which is why when some achievements/skins are sniped, the end game community gets so upset.

Anyways back on topic, this is the life of devs wanting to “balance” things so much and endlessly. Because I love the game though, we just have to put in extra work to stay current.