Are Releqen and Seroria sets practical in real situations (not on test dummy)?

Bigevilpeter

These sets both have a problem, you need to stack 20 stacks for max effect meaning 20 light attacks for stamina and 20 direct damage for Magika and you lose the effect if not refreshed in 5 secs.

For Releqen the problem is its not a buff for the player its a debuff for the enemy so as many bosses do, disappear for a while or become invulnerable you lose all 20 stacks, if you are relying on LA weaving between skills it will really take a while to get the 20 stacks back.

Seroria is better in gathering stacks since its relies on direct damage and force pulse actually is 3 direct damage attacks at once, the problem is they need to keep standing in location, what about going around and doing mechanics or avoiding aoes or moving to new areas as some bosses do?

Tbh I haven't tested them yet, I'm pretty sure they will be OP in test dummy, but I imagine getting 20 stacks all the time on tough bosses will not be practical. I just want to know if they are really worth it before farming them.

Enslaved

I guess in some fights, where tank can pretty much root the boss in one place, these sets will perform excellent. Not sure about other situations, where bosses tend to move a lot, or mechanics make tanking them to stay still impossible.

ResTandRespeC

They will be situational. Highly mobile fights go with another set.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

They better be. They nerfed Mechanical Acuity just to make these sets more attractive.

AEAltadoonPadhome

I think I will make sure to have one of these sets on each char, and another one to use in more mobile fights, like hunding or julianos. This way I can abuse it on the fights on which it performs well and swap it out on others.

ResTandRespeC

Lol that's my exact lone of reasoning on the MA nerf

Carbonised

Every single major boss in new content is teleporting all over the place, and has plenty of oneshot mechanics that need to be avoided. And by new content I mean everything from Thieves Guild update and forward.

Honestly I think I'll just pair my BSW set with good old Julianos instead of Siroria, first of all Juli is 300 spellpower constantly, whereas Siroria requires you to add stacks 20 times to get the large benefit, plus if you exit your circle of power it's just a wasted 5 bonus set.

In real content such as DLC dungs and trials, I'm guessing Juli will have more impact than Siroria in many if not most cases.

Asardes

I don't consider them worth farming specifically. Yes, I will run the content at some point in the near future, but for the sake of running, completing it, getting better at it and subsequently getting the achievements & unlockables, and not for farming gear. That's the reason I almost never run normal trials or dungeons.

My current gear is fine across 6 characters, and it is put together in such a way it performs consistently in multiple scenarios, so I see no point in obsessively farming something that theoretically adds <5% DPS in some very specific, ideal situations. Hunding, Briarheart, TFS, VO, Velidreth, Stormfist, Mephala, Selene, Julianos, BSW, IA, Ilambris, Grothdarr, Zaan are good enough so I'll stick to those for now. And dummy tests are informative, good for laying out, testing and learning rotations, but not anything to optimize for. For example I have found that on magicka in melee range Grothdarr performs much better in the majority of fights, compared to Zaan, though the latter performs better on dummy, and in a few specific instances where you have a completely stationary boss without adds. Some reasoning for the new sets, they are stronger in their niche, but outside of that, they're nothing special and have stat combinations that work against them. For example Arms of Relequen adds 7.6% weapon critical, though the bulk of the damage comes from procs, which cannot score critical hits themselves.

starkerealm

From what I've seen, Relequen tracks with the debuffed enemy. So long as you can light attack, it should keep the stacks up. Also, I haven't tested it, but you should be able to maintain a stack on an enemy while they're invulnerable, if you remember to light attack them every 3 to 4 seconds. The LA itself applies the buff, not the damage dealt.

However, (and I could be wrong about this), my impression is if you change targets, the old stack is immediately canceled when you start a new stack. Meaning for something like the Fleshsculpter, you could theoretically keep the stacks through an immunity phase, but on someone like St. Olms, changing targets to clear the adds would cancel the stack. To say nothing of situations where you're dealing with swarms of adds.

So, very good in the situations where it works, but, yeah, situational.

Okay, Siroria, as others have pointed out, is very restrictive. You need to pitch a tent for 20 seconds inside the ring. In some fights, that's fine. The final fight in SO comes to mind. Everyone stacks up and hoses the boss down. You should be able to get that stack and keep it most of the time. Kinda nice because it also boosts your defensive and some utility abilities.

The downside is any fight where you need to stay mobile... and honestly, that's nearly everything produced after 2014. There's even a few quest bosses where I'm pretty sure this set is non-viable, and not simply because of its long warmup time.

That said, I do like it, and I think with some careful planning, a couple players using the set in tandem could do some amazing things, but this one is not going to be easy to use in endgame. These kinds of strange sets encourage playstyles you wouldn't usually consider.

Also, because the buff affects team members, this might be a good set to have on a player, just so their nearby party members get the benefit of a few stacks. Each second will net you another 30 points of free spell damage, for the next five seconds. If you are not wearing the set, that's free for dropping by on the way to wherever you want to go. Stacking to 600 in endgame content is unrealistic, but in any tight stack, it'll still deliver some nice damage to your magicka buddies. In some ways you could think of this as a Magicka equivalent of (the old) NMG or Sunder. It's not great for you, but it helps your team mates out.

starkerealm

Asardes wrote: »

Some reasoning for the new sets, they are stronger in their niche, but outside of that, they're nothing special and have stat combinations that work against them. For example Arms of Relequen adds 7.6% weapon critical, though the bulk of the damage comes from procs, which cannot score critical hits themselves.

Yeah. All four of the sets in Cloudrest are... I mean, the closest analogy I can think of is splash cards from CCGs. They have neat effects, but they don't really synergize with anything in particular. You just chuck them in. This is a good example. That proc effect is very nice. That's substantial, sustained, DPS just for poking the boss regularly. But, like you said, the rest of the set could not care less about that effect. It's just there.

There's nothing wrong with that, but, aside from Olorime, I don't see anyone (who knows what they're doing) chasing the sets in there as the next big thing. Fun? Sure. Worth having to mess around with? Yeah. But not, "new BiS" material.

Vestments of Olorime is nice, because it does take weight off of SPC, and moves that buff elsewhere. Useful. Not mandatory by any means, but it's good to see that buff migrating off of one set. Especially because it will allow a little more build diversity for healers moving forward.

Asardes

Vestment of Olorime is nice, but if you have 2 HoTs ticking (ex. rapid regeneration & energy orb in spread out fights) you can hit 85% or better up time on Major Courage buff even with SPC. In stationary fights where I regularly stack 4 heals, that goes to 90% or better, which is close to the practical limit. Theoretically, with Olorime you can keep it up 100%, that's 10-15% better up time, which looks good in theory, but it is in fact just 25-40 extra weapon and spell damage w/o multipliers, and 35-55 after those are factored in. That's between 0.8-1.5% of the typical DD spell/weapon damage, or between 0.5-0.8% of the weapon or spell power value on which all attacks scale (the other half is max stat). So less than 1% DPS increase in ideal situations where the people actually go over the circle(s) at least every 30s. That's in the same range as the average spread of multiple dummy parses of a very experienced player; in trial parse vary much more due to more variables being at play, so the difference between SPC and Olorime won't be really be visible. Someone had made a very biased poll asking something like "Is SPC trash now?" when the PTS started and a surprising number of people answered yes. Because hype beats 3rd grade maths.

Bigevilpeter

Asardes wrote: »

Vestment of Olorime is nice, but if you have 2 HoTs ticking (ex. rapid regeneration & energy orb in spread out fights) you can hit 85% or better up time on Major Courage buff even with SPC. In stationary fights where I regularly stack 4 heals, that goes to 90% or better, which is close to the practical limit. Theoretically, with Olorime you can keep it up 100%, that's 10-15% better up time, which looks good in theory, but it is in fact just 25-40 extra weapon and spell damage w/o multipliers, and 35-55 after those are factored in. That's between 0.8-1.5% of the typical DD spell/weapon damage, or between 0.5-0.8% of the weapon or spell power value on which all attacks scale (the other half is max stat). So less than 1% DPS increase in ideal situations where the people actually go over the circle(s) at least every 30s. That's in the same range as the average spread of multiple dummy parses of a very experienced player; in trial parse vary much more due to more variables being at play, so the difference between SPC and Olorime won't be really be visible. Someone had made a very biased poll asking something like "Is SPC trash now?" when the PTS started and a surprising number of people answered yes. Because hype beats 3rd grade maths.

Actually in trials I think its best to have 2 healers one with SPC and one with Olorime the SPC is for the ranged dps since they dont stack as much and are usually farther away from boss, mutagen and orbs would be much better in applying the buff, while Olorime would be good for melee DDs stacked on boss so that Ranged DD dont have to go close to the boss to get it.

In dungeons SPC is better since people tend to move around more often

Enslaved

Asardes wrote: »

Vestment of Olorime is nice, but if you have 2 HoTs ticking (ex. rapid regeneration & energy orb in spread out fights) you can hit 85% or better up time on Major Courage buff even with SPC. In stationary fights where I regularly stack 4 heals, that goes to 90% or better, which is close to the practical limit. Theoretically, with Olorime you can keep it up 100%, that's 10-15% better up time, which looks good in theory, but it is in fact just 25-40 extra weapon and spell damage w/o multipliers, and 35-55 after those are factored in. That's between 0.8-1.5% of the typical DD spell/weapon damage, or between 0.5-0.8% of the weapon or spell power value on which all attacks scale (the other half is max stat). So less than 1% DPS increase in ideal situations where the people actually go over the circle(s) at least every 30s. That's in the same range as the average spread of multiple dummy parses of a very experienced player; in trial parse vary much more due to more variables being at play, so the difference between SPC and Olorime won't be really be visible. Someone had made a very biased poll asking something like "Is SPC trash now?" when the PTS started and a surprising number of people answered yes. Because hype beats 3rd grade maths.

Technically, olorime need to be on one heal. technically, you can keep uptime with this 100% of time with one healer.
Techically, you would need 2 healers with SPC and crazy group skills to have same buff uptime of 80%. That makes olorime 2.5x better even on a non 1337 healer.

Bigevilpeter

Enslaved wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Vestment of Olorime is nice, but if you have 2 HoTs ticking (ex. rapid regeneration & energy orb in spread out fights) you can hit 85% or better up time on Major Courage buff even with SPC. In stationary fights where I regularly stack 4 heals, that goes to 90% or better, which is close to the practical limit. Theoretically, with Olorime you can keep it up 100%, that's 10-15% better up time, which looks good in theory, but it is in fact just 25-40 extra weapon and spell damage w/o multipliers, and 35-55 after those are factored in. That's between 0.8-1.5% of the typical DD spell/weapon damage, or between 0.5-0.8% of the weapon or spell power value on which all attacks scale (the other half is max stat). So less than 1% DPS increase in ideal situations where the people actually go over the circle(s) at least every 30s. That's in the same range as the average spread of multiple dummy parses of a very experienced player; in trial parse vary much more due to more variables being at play, so the difference between SPC and Olorime won't be really be visible. Someone had made a very biased poll asking something like "Is SPC trash now?" when the PTS started and a surprising number of people answered yes. Because hype beats 3rd grade maths.

Technically, olorime need to be on one heal. technically, you can keep uptime with this 100% of time with one healer.
Techically, you would need 2 healers with SPC and crazy group skills to have same buff uptime of 80%. That makes olorime 2.5x better even on a non 1337 healer.

Do you really think DDs will really be paying attention to go and pick it up every 30 secs? also with spamming springs it can sometimes be spawned at non optimal places and you cant recast it for 10 secs. It will need very orgazined groups for it to have 100% uptime

Enslaved

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Vestment of Olorime is nice, but if you have 2 HoTs ticking (ex. rapid regeneration & energy orb in spread out fights) you can hit 85% or better up time on Major Courage buff even with SPC. In stationary fights where I regularly stack 4 heals, that goes to 90% or better, which is close to the practical limit. Theoretically, with Olorime you can keep it up 100%, that's 10-15% better up time, which looks good in theory, but it is in fact just 25-40 extra weapon and spell damage w/o multipliers, and 35-55 after those are factored in. That's between 0.8-1.5% of the typical DD spell/weapon damage, or between 0.5-0.8% of the weapon or spell power value on which all attacks scale (the other half is max stat). So less than 1% DPS increase in ideal situations where the people actually go over the circle(s) at least every 30s. That's in the same range as the average spread of multiple dummy parses of a very experienced player; in trial parse vary much more due to more variables being at play, so the difference between SPC and Olorime won't be really be visible. Someone had made a very biased poll asking something like "Is SPC trash now?" when the PTS started and a surprising number of people answered yes. Because hype beats 3rd grade maths.

Technically, olorime need to be on one heal. technically, you can keep uptime with this 100% of time with one healer.
Techically, you would need 2 healers with SPC and crazy group skills to have same buff uptime of 80%. That makes olorime 2.5x better even on a non 1337 healer.

Do you really think DDs will really be paying attention to go and pick it up every 30 secs? also with spamming springs it can sometimes be spawned at non optimal places and you cant recast it for 10 secs. It will need very orgazined groups for it to have 100% uptime

Compared to gaining same buff from SPC, where you need to be at 100% health, this one will be walk in the park. Also, we are talking organised groups, ppl who use voice chat and tend to listen to directives of whoever is leading.