Why nerf 2H melee while buff 2H staves

MerlinPendragon

Vaoh wrote: »

MerlinPendragon wrote: »

Another change which makes this game look more like Elder Staves Online.

Haven’t heard that one in a loooong time

I really hope you don’t actually believe this though lol.

I do mean it. Staves are too strong and likely need a balancing nerf.

Nelson_Rebel

This was done because of PvP

2h has been over dominating PvP for quite a while now because of the versatility and insane healing and execute damage it provides. Plus the mobility linked to snare removals.


It was quite honestly a requirement to the point magicka builds were using it just because the buffs were THAT much better than everything else in the game.


Nerfing the damage of the LA and HA was only to keep it in line, otherwise it would have been far to powerful from PTS standards buffs to Light attacks scaling.


The reason the Staves were improved is because they are not only generally weaker, but are also laughably easy to avoid because of the travel time and liability of the skill taking nearly twice as long to fire off HA's and very easy to avoid. Unlike melee which despite being close range have a stupid wide range and distance Hit Box area for damage.

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO

Lord-Otto wrote: »

For PvE, just use DW as a DD. I think DW was always supposed to be THE damage skill line, with 2H maybe bringing a bit more cleave potential?

A shame my priorities make me care more about aesthetics than performance, except my ego can't accept performance hits or hate from groups for being sub-par performance, so I'm left to either quit or play something I don't want to play.

I chose the former. ZOS can ^&*( right off. No more sub, no more purchases until they give me the ability to be a 2h DPS that is competitive with the top in PvE.

Chilly-McFreeze

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

2hand is so Over powered I use it on my magika character lol, staves needed the help.

And, did the nerf to light attack changed that or do you use 2h for the buffs instead?

It's the grand o' ZOS sheme. Thing A is overused/performing because of X, so let's nerf Y, leaving the whole Thing A for everything but X in the gutter. Reinforcing the issue instead of solving it.

E: If - and that's a big if bc who knows what's going on in the dev departement - they decided to nerf 2h because it is overused in PvP they could have gone so many different ways that actually adressed the issue instead of leaving it as it is and lowering the already comparably low dps parse for pve alone.

They could've add another effective way of snare removal and immunity. DK wings with removal is a nice gesture but useless bc you're resnared on the spot. Sorcs getaway skill streak is subpar, you can outrun it with maj. Expedition. Throw them a bone via snare removal. Make purge give an additional auto-snare-removal. Etc. for other classes. Mist form is meh from a snare-counter PoV.

Almost every stam toon relies on the rally HoT and burst heal. If they added another reliable (!) heal to any other weapon line, the need to slot 2h would decrease on the spot for medium armor users.

If you'd actually take it a step further and decide to bring 2h on par with DW for PvE they could unnerf the LA dmg and rework Wrecking Blow into an instant spam with lower dmg compared to dizzy, while leaving Dizzy as noob cannon for PvP.

Whatever. We won't see any change made in the next three months. If they'll change it at all.

Pr0fischimmler

Harvall wrote: »

It is not balance. Its the opposite. Staff magicka users 2 shotting everything and multiple mobs from range while melee have to attack everything like dozen times and single target, and have to be close. Simple as that. qucik testing i provided just does not need further testing even, damage almost the same, while 1H-Shield has.. well, Shield, so better def, and attacks faster. Two-handed meelee has been nerfed to the point where i it is almost useless to go with it

1. You can 2-shot anything on stam that you can 2-shot on Magicka, period.
2. Calling a wacky test in uncontrolled environment without proper proof valid evidence that does not need further testing is complete bs.
3. If S+B does the same damage as two handed, you are doing something fundamentally wrong.

The nerfs are likely pointed towards pvp, where you can WRECK any magicka user you come close to.

Harvall wrote: »

Do the numbers yourself and post them if you think this is actual balance. But you won't. You are just another generic mag staff sorc. Some people don't have time to spend on testing complex dps scenarios. Some things are clear that they are wrong from the core

So you are saying noone can acquire accurate data, because you don't have time to acquire accurate data? In the meantime, as long as you don't have accurate data, you should tone down the QQ just a bit.

Harvall

Pr0fischimmler wrote: »

So you are saying noone can acquire accurate data, because you don't have time to acquire accurate data?.

I does not say anywhere that noone can acquire data. It just implies i don't have time and tools to do it. Thats why i said hiim to do it if he wants. Read with understanding

Brutusmax1mus

How much of a nerf was it?

Kanar

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

For PvE, just use DW as a DD. I think DW was always supposed to be THE damage skill line, with 2H maybe bringing a bit more cleave potential?

A shame my priorities make me care more about aesthetics than performance, except my ego can't accept performance hits or hate from groups for being sub-par performance, so I'm left to either quit or play something I don't want to play.

I chose the former. ZOS can ^&*( right off. No more sub, no more purchases until they give me the ability to be a 2h DPS that is competitive with the top in PvE.

I too chose to not buy SS and instead quit. I extensively played 2h in PvE, doing all HM dungeons and some trials. It was adequate but not up to DW levels. Nerfing 2h and buffing DW increases the gap. For me, it's not so much just this particular change, but rather how it demonstrates the game designers incompetence and lack of care: they are just happy saying all PvE stam chars should use DW/bow. (If there's any place for stam at all in PvE when trials are designed to punish stam and maximize mag effectiveness).

Scesmoon

Kanar wrote: »

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

For PvE, just use DW as a DD. I think DW was always supposed to be THE damage skill line, with 2H maybe bringing a bit more cleave potential?

A shame my priorities make me care more about aesthetics than performance, except my ego can't accept performance hits or hate from groups for being sub-par performance, so I'm left to either quit or play something I don't want to play.

I chose the former. ZOS can ^&*( right off. No more sub, no more purchases until they give me the ability to be a 2h DPS that is competitive with the top in PvE.

I too chose to not buy SS and instead quit. I extensively played 2h in PvE, doing all HM dungeons and some trials. It was adequate but not up to DW levels. Nerfing 2h and buffing DW increases the gap. For me, it's not so much just this particular change, but rather how it demonstrates the game designers incompetence and lack of care: they are just happy saying all PvE stam chars should use DW/bow. (If there's any place for stam at all in PvE when trials are designed to punish stam and maximize mag effectiveness).

this too has been a sore spot of contention for me. i really want to like ESO but i want to play with 2 hander, it blows me away how this weapon can be literally the only weapon in the game that beth has simply decided is a pvp weapon. i keep coming back to eso hoping that something has changed, and 2 hander can be decent. i dont understand why 2 hander cant have a decent aoe, i dont understand why a weapon iconic for being big damage is mostly relegated to being a "rally/buff stick" and beth continues to allow this to be the case for YEARS. yeah they buffed cleave but its still trash compared to most every other aoe in the game

Raraaku

I don't PvP but I do wonder if they nerfed the 2H LA to counterbalance the new Psijic Skill Line spammable Crushing Weapon. If that's the case, then I can understand why. As for HA, I know they want to reinforce the whole HA = resources while LA = DPS, but I almost wish those were reversed when it comes 2H, where HA do big damage on 2H.

Why? Because I want to feel like I'm smacking someone to next week when I HA with a 2H maul, and I want the damage to match what I feel.

Scesmoon

Raraaku wrote: »

I don't PvP but I do wonder if they nerfed the 2H LA to counterbalance the new Psijic Skill Line spammable Crushing Weapon. If that's the case, then I can understand why. As for HA, I know they want to reinforce the whole HA = resources while LA = DPS, but I almost wish those were reversed when it comes 2H, where HA do big damage on 2H.

Why? Because I want to feel like I'm smacking someone to next week when I HA with a 2H maul, and I want the damage to match what I feel.

i dont get why they encourage the animation cancel weaving stuff at all, thats what all these chasnges seem to come from. a heavy attack should do more dmg. thats why its a HEAVY attack. the only reason for buffing light attacks over heavy attacks is because of light attack weaving. which is nonsesne to begin with

Chilly-McFreeze

Raraaku wrote: »

I don't PvP but I do wonder if they nerfed the 2H LA to counterbalance the new Psijic Skill Line spammable Crushing Weapon. If that's the case, then I can understand why. As for HA, I know they want to reinforce the whole HA = resources while LA = DPS, but I almost wish those were reversed when it comes 2H, where HA do big damage on 2H.

Why? Because I want to feel like I'm smacking someone to next week when I HA with a 2H maul, and I want the damage to match what I feel.

Nothing stops me from using imbue with DW, Bow, SnB, Destro and Resto. If I'm not mistaken each one of those lines has gotten a buff to light attacks and at least DW and Destro were already better at actually dealing damage. Just like Bow 2h got forced into a backbar weapon (except for some ganking - but empower changes made that even harder).

If it's for diversity reason, then it is a half arsed attempt that completely ignores "half" of the game (PvE) and an utter nonsensical reason since they killed of DW mag builds in the same patch.

Harvall

Scesmoon wrote: »

i dont get why they encourage the animation cancel weaving stuff at all, thats what all these chasnges seem to come from. a heavy attack should do more dmg. thats why its a HEAVY attack. the only reason for buffing light attacks over heavy attacks is because of light attack weaving. which is nonsesne to begin with

Exactly. What the hell is animation cancelling ? it was in ESO from beta and it should have been dealt with at the start, but devs altough at first said they were unaware of this tactic, at the end of the day went with it and literally said it is a *** feature. I still remember people arguing about that. People that were able to animation cancel and MMO dwellers, no-lifers
and grinders wanted for it to stay, because it gave DPS, and did not gave a *** about franchise. Actual TES fans, and folk who were unable to to this wanted to dimnish animation canceliing to hell along with those grinders. It is Sad. But it think it is too late to change that. I hope im wrong. Not saying about a fact that staves have easier and more effective weaving than other weapons,

LittlePinkDot

Harvall wrote: »

Scesmoon wrote: »

i dont get why they encourage the animation cancel weaving stuff at all, thats what all these chasnges seem to come from. a heavy attack should do more dmg. thats why its a HEAVY attack. the only reason for buffing light attacks over heavy attacks is because of light attack weaving. which is nonsesne to begin with

Exactly. What the hell is animation cancelling ? it was in ESO from beta and it should have been dealt with at the start, but devs altough at first said they were unaware of this tactic, at the end of the day went with it and literally said it is a *** feature. I still remember people arguing about that. People that were able to animation cancel and MMO dwellers, no-lifers
and grinders wanted for it to stay, because it gave DPS, and did not gave a *** about franchise. Actual TES fans, and folk who were unable to to this wanted to dimnish animation canceliing to hell along with those grinders. It is Sad. But it think it is too late to change that. I hope im wrong. Not saying about a fact that staves have easier and more effective weaving than other weapons,

Ooooh thats why you feel 2h is so slow. Im on ps4, still dont have a target dummy. But its easy to practice animation cancelling, im practicing it myself as I level up my 2h pvp stamwarden. Just start with a light attack then half way through the animation hit the next attack then light again and cancel it again with the next attack. Ive been able to kill as fast as the sorcs at my current low level. You may have not noticed, but the attacks are like a cue. Do the sequence I described above at the right pace, then take your hand off the controller, you will notice it does the attacks youve cued up even though you removed your hand. I also had assumed that each skill would only fire when I hit the button.

Malacthulhu

Psyonico wrote: »

Harvall wrote: »

Do the numbers yourself and post them if you think this is actual balance. But you won't. You are just another generic mag staff sorc. Some people don't have time to spend on testing complex dps scenarios. Some things are clear that they are wrong from the core

If you think there is an issue, it's your job to prove it. It's not the job of people who think things are right to prove anything.

That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

mr_wazzabi

It seems like the nerf was made halfheartedly because every stam uses 2h in pvp.

Problem Is, light attacks have never been a a big part of pvp dps, especially 2h. Heavy attack yes, but not light.

I have no idea why they made this nerf and posted several threads on pts asking for a ZOS explanation.

They gave none. Must be a new policy they have now, which is, say nothing when it comes to buffs and nerfs in the game.

Harvall

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Ooooh thats why you feel 2h is so slow. Im on ps4, still dont have a target dummy. But its easy to practice animation cancelling, im practicing it myself as I level up my 2h pvp stamwarden. Just start with a light attack then half way through the animation hit the next attack then light again and cancel it again with the next attack. Ive been able to kill as fast as the sorcs at my current low level. You may have not noticed, but the attacks are like a cue. Do the sequence I described above at the right pace, then take your hand off the controller, you will notice it does the attacks youve cued up even though you removed your hand. I also had assumed that each skill would only fire when I hit the button.

I never said 2h is soo slow or too slow. In fact i said it should be slow but powerful. And you did not understand me. Of course i know what is animation cancelling, i know how to do it and i do it, because everyone else does it, but i hate it. I think animation cancelling should not exist. It is an exploit, and makes characters look glitchy because animations (as the name suggests) cancels, so you have your sword over your head and suddenly it is below your waist and swinging upwards. I play since Beta and follow all patch notes and news. I cannot understand how no one is ranting about it all the time, especially new players. Do everyone just gave up and accepted animation cancelling wth ? it is wrong

LittlePinkDot

Harvall wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Ooooh thats why you feel 2h is so slow. Im on ps4, still dont have a target dummy. But its easy to practice animation cancelling, im practicing it myself as I level up my 2h pvp stamwarden. Just start with a light attack then half way through the animation hit the next attack then light again and cancel it again with the next attack. Ive been able to kill as fast as the sorcs at my current low level. You may have not noticed, but the attacks are like a cue. Do the sequence I described above at the right pace, then take your hand off the controller, you will notice it does the attacks youve cued up even though you removed your hand. I also had assumed that each skill would only fire when I hit the button.

I never said 2h is soo slow or too slow. In fact i said it should be slow but powerful. And you did not understand me. Of course i know what is animation cancelling, i know how to do it and i do it, because everyone else does it, but i hate it. I think animation cancelling should not exist. It is an exploit, and makes characters look glitchy because animations (as the name suggests) cancels, so you have your sword over your head and suddenly it is below your waist and swinging upwards. I play since Beta and follow all patch notes and news. I cannot understand how no one is ranting about it all the time, especially new players. Do everyone just gave up and accepted animation cancelling wth ? it is wrong

Theyre not going to do anything about it. Its probably bad coding or something, so theyre just rolling with it. It would probably cost too much money to change.

Im wondering if it would even be possible to kill anyone in cp cyrodiil without animation cancelling. Without it, it seems like it would be hard to land a burst combo before they just dodged/blocked and healed.

Harvall

They would resign from 50% damage debuff in cyro, which was placed there because ppl were dealing damage too fast, without opponent even having a chance to respond. There are dozens of ways to make it work. Better to get back to the topic of the post

Integral1900

I like two handed and I like heavy attacks, I don’t like doing light attacks as it just feels like button mashing, they can nerf it all they like but I won’t stop playing the way I like

Harvall

Integral1900 wrote: »

I like two handed and I like heavy attacks, I don’t like doing light attacks as it just feels like button mashing, they can nerf it all they like but I won’t stop playing the way I like

That works as long as you are doing solo content. I would generally agree with you, but i like doing other content as well.

Ragnarock41

If this was a PvP related nerf, let me tell you it will change nothing.

LittlePinkDot

Uuuh I hate heavy attacking, thats why I dont like playing magicka characters.

DemonDruaga

MerlinPendragon wrote: »

Another change which makes this game look more like Elder Staves Online.

Edit:
Screw it... Mobile forums never work

Integral1900

Harvall wrote: »

Integral1900 wrote: »

I like two handed and I like heavy attacks, I don’t like doing light attacks as it just feels like button mashing, they can nerf it all they like but I won’t stop playing the way I like

That works as long as you are doing solo content. I would generally agree with you, but i like doing other content as well.

Well, I’ve done plenty of trials, vet hard mode and all, nobody ever complained about my dps. No idea about pvp but then again I’m allergic to it anyway

Joker99

Why? Because 2h LA have a splash dmg and because stamina is powerful enough in pvp right now, there, 2 reasons, the nerf was needed, no need to complain.

Chilly-McFreeze

Bc of Splash damage? You mean like undodgeable lightning staff heavy attacks that somehow still got buffed and do splash damage to more than just 3 opponents?

And how do your „nerf was needed“-„argument“ fit into pve, where dw outperformed 2h even before the nerf?

And lastly, did the la nerf accomplish anything about 2h being the mandatory go-to weapon for stam and even some mag builds?

Your arguments fall a little short.

mr_wazzabi

Joker99 wrote: »

Why? Because 2h LA have a splash dmg and because stamina is powerful enough in pvp right now, there, 2 reasons, the nerf was needed, no need to complain.

Lol magicka only player qq

When was the last time you got killed by a 2h light attack in pvp?

Joker99

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Joker99 wrote: »

Why? Because 2h LA have a splash dmg and because stamina is powerful enough in pvp right now, there, 2 reasons, the nerf was needed, no need to complain.

Lol magicka only player qq

When was the last time you got killed by a 2h light attack in pvp?

@mr_wazzabi
I am, and always be a stamina main, I rarely PvP and when I do, I go on my Stamblade even though people say it's cancer.

Joker99

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Bc of Splash damage? You mean like undodgeable lightning staff heavy attacks that somehow still got buffed and do splash damage to more than just 3 opponents?

And how do your „nerf was needed“-„argument“ fit into pve, where dw outperformed 2h even before the nerf?

And lastly, did the la nerf accomplish anything about 2h being the mandatory go-to weapon for stam and even some mag builds?

Your arguments fall a little short.

@Chilly-McFreeze
1.Yes, the heavy attack that is also a channel not an instant hit, the one you’ll probably intrerupt in pvp if you want to roll dodge or cast an ability.
2. 2h perfectly fine in PvE right now being used as for trash mostly, it doesn’t neccesarily have to out dps dw, then dw boys will q.q on forums, esentially leading to the same thing.
3. Lastly, yes, the nerf accomplished *something*, it did not make 2h worse to go against than it currently is.