No Crit Heals, No Change to Defile, No Logic

Vapirko

For some time defile has been known to be over performing. Yet ZOS left that alone while putting an end to crit heals benefiting from modifiers. Supposedly this was done to stop NBs from cloaking and healing to full so easily? But of course this is a classic, lazy ZOS fix to a problem and now defile is way OP. Getting hit with incap strike in no CP right by a decent player now is pretty much a death sentence. Recovering feels damn near impossible. I haven’t tried much CP combat yet but I assume it’s slightly less awful but still really bad. So what gives? I don’t think that this was a good change to make while at the same time leaving defile in it’s OP state, continuing the power creep and adding more damage to the game. ZOS is essentially moving towards making it necessary to have a dedicated healer and tbh I don’t think I like that even though I do have someone who will play that role. Thoughts?

Edit: crit heals are no longer boosted by critical damage modifiers, not removed entirely.

waitwhat

I thought the "removal of crit heals" was actually the change that the Shadow mundus stone would not increase the magnitude of crit heals, rather than removing crit heals altogether?

SugaComa

Less awelful ... You're kidding right points in befoul and that defile just 55% stronger

It's a feking nightmare in CP

Vapirko

waitwhat wrote: »

I thought the "removal of crit heals" was actually the change that the Shadow mundus stone would not increase the magnitude of crit heals, rather than removing crit heals altogether?

Sorry I was slightly off. They’re no longer modified by any crit damage boost from whatever source. So I think that means armor sets, Mundus Stones, CP, abilities etc. Regardless it’s still a blanket changed to solve one problem and imo it’s noticeable. And I stand by my original statement.

jaws343

Being on Xbox, I haven't had a chance to experience the updated pvp combat, but I honestly think anything that reduces healing a bit is a good thing. Some fights are absurdly drawn out because a player can go from 5% health to 100% by clicking two buttons. And I am not talking about tanks or healers.

casparian

Vapirko wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

I thought the "removal of crit heals" was actually the change that the Shadow mundus stone would not increase the magnitude of crit heals, rather than removing crit heals altogether?

Sorry I was slightly off. They’re no longer modified by any crit damage boost from whatever source. So I think that means armor sets, Mundus Stones, CP, abilities etc. Regardless it’s still a blanket changed to solve one problem and imo it’s noticeable. And I stand by my original statement.

They're still modified by CP -- those stars explicitly state they boost both crit damage and crit heals. The change was that crit damage boosts that didn't explicitly mention crit heals (like Shadow stone and NB/Templar passives) were also boosting crit heals, and now no longer are.

Vapirko

casparian wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

I thought the "removal of crit heals" was actually the change that the Shadow mundus stone would not increase the magnitude of crit heals, rather than removing crit heals altogether?

Sorry I was slightly off. They’re no longer modified by any crit damage boost from whatever source. So I think that means armor sets, Mundus Stones, CP, abilities etc. Regardless it’s still a blanket changed to solve one problem and imo it’s noticeable. And I stand by my original statement.

They're still modified by CP -- those stars explicitly state they boost both crit damage and crit heals. The change was that crit damage boosts that didn't explicitly mention crit heals (like Shadow stone and NB/Templar passives) were also boosting crit heals, and now no longer are.

Are you certain? I’ve seen now a few content creators mention CP not boosting crit heals anymore. But hopefully they still do.

waitwhat

Yeah I don't think it actually reduces healing that much, at least not for actual healers in PvP. We stopped running Shadow a while ago when it was reduced, and it was never a particularly popular option to begin with.

If you're not struggling for recovery, i.e. if you in a position to run the Shadow on your healer, you may wish to consider the Ritual mundus stone, which if I recall correctly received a buff at the time the Shadow was nerfed.

a.ahanchiub17_ESO

SugaComa wrote: »

Less awelful ... You're kidding right points in befoul and that defile just 55% stronger

It's a feking nightmare in CP

Minno

Vapirko wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

I thought the "removal of crit heals" was actually the change that the Shadow mundus stone would not increase the magnitude of crit heals, rather than removing crit heals altogether?

Sorry I was slightly off. They’re no longer modified by any crit damage boost from whatever source. So I think that means armor sets, Mundus Stones, CP, abilities etc. Regardless it’s still a blanket changed to solve one problem and imo it’s noticeable. And I stand by my original statement.

They're still modified by CP -- those stars explicitly state they boost both crit damage and crit heals. The change was that crit damage boosts that didn't explicitly mention crit heals (like Shadow stone and NB/Templar passives) were also boosting crit heals, and now no longer are.

Are you certain? I’ve seen now a few content creators mention CP not boosting crit heals anymore. But hopefully they still do.

It was mentioned to me via Gina that all sources of crit DMG impacting crit heals would be changed. She didn't mention if the CP that say "DMG and heals" would be included.

I know the DMG portions are changed and it should include CP as well. But other healing passives should be reviewed (like stamplars not being about to use mending passive reliably like magplars can, etc.)

casparian

Vapirko wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

I thought the "removal of crit heals" was actually the change that the Shadow mundus stone would not increase the magnitude of crit heals, rather than removing crit heals altogether?

Sorry I was slightly off. They’re no longer modified by any crit damage boost from whatever source. So I think that means armor sets, Mundus Stones, CP, abilities etc. Regardless it’s still a blanket changed to solve one problem and imo it’s noticeable. And I stand by my original statement.

They're still modified by CP -- those stars explicitly state they boost both crit damage and crit heals. The change was that crit damage boosts that didn't explicitly mention crit heals (like Shadow stone and NB/Templar passives) were also boosting crit heals, and now no longer are.

Are you certain? I’ve seen now a few content creators mention CP not boosting crit heals anymore. But hopefully they still do.

You'd be surprised how often content creators don't read things closely or occasionally speak imprecisely without realizing it.

waitwhat

Minno wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

I thought the "removal of crit heals" was actually the change that the Shadow mundus stone would not increase the magnitude of crit heals, rather than removing crit heals altogether?

Sorry I was slightly off. They’re no longer modified by any crit damage boost from whatever source. So I think that means armor sets, Mundus Stones, CP, abilities etc. Regardless it’s still a blanket changed to solve one problem and imo it’s noticeable. And I stand by my original statement.

They're still modified by CP -- those stars explicitly state they boost both crit damage and crit heals. The change was that crit damage boosts that didn't explicitly mention crit heals (like Shadow stone and NB/Templar passives) were also boosting crit heals, and now no longer are.

Are you certain? I’ve seen now a few content creators mention CP not boosting crit heals anymore. But hopefully they still do.

Gina mentioned all sources of crit DMG impacting fruit heals would be changed. She didn't mention if the CP that say "DMG and heals".

Yeah the CP stars specifically mention damage and healing from critical strikes with stamina/magicka abilities.

Waffennacht

+ crit damage should have never modified crit heals to begin with

React

Amazing that people can complain about their healing getting nerfed in a meta where sustain has once again become too easy in CP, where players can forego all offensive capability to put their blue points in blessed and elfborn, and where the mitigation received from the red tree is greater than the possible damage achievable via the blue tree.

Defile is strong sure, and as someone who plays ONLY medium armor stam classes (all 5) in sub-5 man groups or solo, I probably feel it's effects more severely than ANY heavy armor user or magicka spec. Even so, I don't think it needs any type of nerf UNTIL they adjust the amount of healing and mitigation available from CP.

When I sacrifice all my survivability and run just BARELY enough sustain to get by (assuming i make 0 mistakes by way of wasted resources) so that I can have as much damage as possible, and some 32k health argonian templar or warden can stand there and take ALL of my burst while pressing 1-2 buttons, healing himself and those around him through everything i throw out, there is a problem. It forces solo players into groups, and forces groups to conform to the meta the majority of the time.

Tl;dr - If you complain about defile but don't see an issue with healing or mitigation, you don't understand the game.

casparian

Liam12548 wrote: »

It forces solo players into groups

Maybe I'm being cynical, but I'm pretty sure that's part of the point. ZOS seems really unhappy when people can succeed ungrouped in Cyrodiil, for reasons I could only guess at.

lazerlaz

The amount you can buff your healing with CP, gear, abilities, and stats far surpasses what defile can do with just CP as 1 source to buff jt. In NO CP gear, abilities and stats alone far surpasses what no CP defile can do.

Sorry you died in pvp....

Incap defile doesn't last very long. Be faster at break free. Then roll, hold a block, and back to normal healing you go.

Again another broken record of "L2P"

Minno

casparian wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

It forces solo players into groups

Maybe I'm being cynical, but I'm pretty sure that's part of the point. ZOS seems really unhappy when people can succeed ungrouped in Cyrodiil, for reasons I could only guess at.

They would have fixed the lag then if that was the case lol.

It's just spring cleaning, like the community has been asking them to do for so long. It's just some things still need to be worked on that the community is hounding then for (like emphasis on single target/ground based AOE over pbaoe for PvP, or why incap/wrecking blow stuns but not warden shalks, etc).

But slowly we are getting there.

brandonv516

So Major and Minor force no longer effect heals? Or was this always the case?

Minno

brandonv516 wrote: »

So Major and Minor force no longer effect heals? Or was this always the case?

They nerfed it to match other passives that say "crit DMG" on the tooltips. From this moment forward, if the tolltip says "crit DMG" only, and it still buffs heals, flag it as a bug.

CatchMeTrolling

lazerlaz wrote: »

The amount you can buff your healing with CP, gear, abilities, and stats far surpasses what defile can do with just CP as 1 source to buff jt. In NO CP gear, abilities and stats alone far surpasses what no CP defile can do.

Sorry you died in pvp....

Incap defile doesn't last very long. Be faster at break free. Then roll, hold a block, and back to normal healing you go.

Again another broken record of "L2P"

What are you talking about, defile is stronger than healing right now. It’s also still very strong in no cp, if not stronger because there’s no healing boost. In fact certain things become even more of a nuisance in no cp.

The times I’ve ran reverb, pollen or Cyrodiils crest it felt too strong, to the point it feels very cheesy. You’re fighting someone and they’re struggling to heal.

I don’t think I ever came across any decent player that’s okay with defile in its current state. Definitely not a small scale player, and I’m not talking about being in a group of 4 around 60 people.

Twohothardware

Befoul needs to be removed from the CP tree and replaced with something else. Major Defile would be fine if it was capped at 30% just like every other Major and Minor buff in the game.

BohnT

Saying we are on a magnb with the following healing bonuses active: major mending, minor mending, major & minor vitality + 100 points into blessed and quick recovery)
We heal ourselves with an ability with a tooltip of 2k (before buffs and debuffs)

This 2k heal gets reduced by 50% instantly with Battle spirit.
Now our heal is 1k.
1k * 1,3 * 1.25 * 1.3225 * 1.08 * 1.08 = 2506.6

Now an enemy hits us with minor and major defile + 100 points into befoul
Our heal gets reduced to: 2506.6*0.3 = 751.98

Let's assume we get a crit aswell: then we are at 1127.9 after defiles.
The difference is that no class can actually keep those buffs up to negate the defiles while it's extremely easy to have a major defile uptime of 100% and minor defile also has an uptime above 50% when you build for it.

Also we aren't factoring any opportunity costs which are extremely low for Befoul and defiles while they are really high for healing and heal buffs

lazerlaz

1.You've got armor sets that increase healing in the 2-4 piece and 5 piece.
2.Monster sets that increase healing.
3.Pots that can increase healing.
4.Abilities that carry passives to inicrease healing
5. Racial passive that increase healing
6. 2 different CP trees to increase healing
7. Stats increase healing.

Then you have defile.
1. A handful of skills like incap and lethal arrow have defile.
2. A few armor sets that require you to sacrifice a lot to run.
3. 1 CP tree to increase defile.
4. Poisons that don't last long and do minor defile which is ever more rare than major.


In addition, templars can purge themselves and the group easily with little to no skill involved since it's an AOE thats huge and lasts too long.

Oh I'm sorry, you can't overbuff your heals at the cost of losing dps to counter defile?

SORRY, YOU CANT DO IT ALL KID.

lazerlaz

BohnT wrote: »

Saying we are on a magnb with the following healing bonuses active: major mending, minor mending, major & minor vitality + 100 points into blessed and quick recovery)
We heal ourselves with an ability with a tooltip of 2k (before buffs and debuffs)

This 2k heal gets reduced by 50% instantly with Battle spirit.
Now our heal is 1k.
1k * 1,3 * 1.25 * 1.3225 * 1.08 * 1.08 = 2506.6

Now an enemy hits us with minor and major defile + 100 points into befoul
Our heal gets reduced to: 2506.6*0.3 = 751.98

Let's assume we get a crit aswell: then we are at 1127.9 after defiles.
The difference is that no class can actually keep those buffs up to negate the defiles while it's extremely easy to have a major defile uptime of 100% and minor defile also has an uptime above 50% when you build for it.

Also we aren't factoring any opportunity costs which are extremely low for Befoul and defiles they are really high for healing and heal buffs

Almost a good example except for the fact that it's incredibly misleading.

Major healing buffs without debuffs and battle spirit and your tooltip example is 2k????

What theoretical patato heal on God's green earth is your magblade using?

My Argonian stamblade with no CP into healing and 30k Max stam and 3k weapdam has a 14k vigor tooltip. 7k with battle spirit. Even if I got hit with a 50% defile, without crit I'll heal 3.5k out of 20k health. However, 50% of the tics will crit heal. I'll probably still heal for 5k+ which is a quarter of my health bar while pushing rally and pots, blocking, rolling, etc.... Defile is not that big a deal people!!!!

On top of all that, healing received bonuses aren't even factored into our examples.

Own

SugaComa wrote: »

Less awelful ... You're kidding right points in befoul and that defile just 55% stronger

It's a feking nightmare in CP

Hey I called it day 1 PTS of befoul change. What stat should be passively buffed 55%? NONE amiright?
Reduce major defile to 25% and I think Battlegrounds and no cp people will be happy. It might even be enough to make CP fine with defile.

Also, lower 10 second defiles down to 6 seconds. That is a real problem.

Ocelot9x

lazerlaz wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Saying we are on a magnb with the following healing bonuses active: major mending, minor mending, major & minor vitality + 100 points into blessed and quick recovery)
We heal ourselves with an ability with a tooltip of 2k (before buffs and debuffs)

This 2k heal gets reduced by 50% instantly with Battle spirit.
Now our heal is 1k.
1k * 1,3 * 1.25 * 1.3225 * 1.08 * 1.08 = 2506.6

Now an enemy hits us with minor and major defile + 100 points into befoul
Our heal gets reduced to: 2506.6*0.3 = 751.98

Let's assume we get a crit aswell: then we are at 1127.9 after defiles.
The difference is that no class can actually keep those buffs up to negate the defiles while it's extremely easy to have a major defile uptime of 100% and minor defile also has an uptime above 50% when you build for it.

Also we aren't factoring any opportunity costs which are extremely low for Befoul and defiles they are really high for healing and heal buffs

Almost a good example except for the fact that it's incredibly misleading.

Major healing buffs without debuffs and battle spirit and your tooltip example is 2k????

What theoretical patato heal on God's green earth is your magblade using?

My Argonian stamblade with no CP into healing and 30k Max stam and 3k weapdam has a 14k vigor tooltip. 7k with battle spirit. Even if I got hit with a 50% defile, without crit I'll heal 3.5k out of 20k health. However, 50% of the tics will crit heal. I'll probably still heal for 5k+ which is a quarter of my health bar while pushing rally and pots, blocking, rolling, etc.... Defile is not that big a deal people!!!!

On top of all that, healing received bonuses aren't even factored into our examples.

Well man,30k hp argonian stamblade,I see why your fine with defile lol
And u should also get better at maths,as a 3,5k vigor is 1,5k per second,you need a crit modifier of 2,5 which is nearly impossible to get.

SugaComa

Own wrote: »

SugaComa wrote: »

Less awelful ... You're kidding right points in befoul and that defile just 55% stronger

It's a feking nightmare in CP

Hey I called it day 1 PTS of befoul change. What stat should be passively buffed 55%? NONE amiright?
Reduce major defile to 25% and I think Battlegrounds and no cp people will be happy. It might even be enough to make CP fine with defile.

Also, lower 10 second defiles down to 6 seconds. That is a real problem.

I run duroks on my healer in PvP with points in befoul for *** n giggles ..n yes I agree with changes need to be made ... But not to defile ... But to befoul

rfennell_ESO

It was predictable that the change to crit heals would make defile/befoul too powerful.

Fortunately, that can be alleviated once they see it. Unfortunately, it might take months for that to occur.