PvP'er vs PvE'er Mentality

Thogard

coop500 wrote: »

Just someone giving PVPers another chance to say how wonderful they are and how lame PVEers are, move on everybody

And miss a chance for some good forum PvP? Never!

DeadlyPhoenix

Been saying it for years.... separate PvP and PvE completely or combine them to work the same.... This battle spirit bs and skills working differently between the two is the problem.

Will they ever learn? Undoubtedly no....

MTijhuis

You do realize, that an mmo always get balance changes. They change skills and sets to keep the game interesting. Otherwise everyone will be running the same build, gear and skills.

It's true that some of the changes we got in the past are due to pvp, but we also got changes due to pve.

I think the main thing I have learned is, people complain because they care about the game. And now matter what balance changes we get, we always find a way to make it work. So we can complain about something else.

DocDova

Balance has to be struck between PvE and PvP. First step should providing PvE only instance of Cyrodiil and imperial city. Except for AP, everything should be earnable in PvE only instance as even Telvar can be earned by PvE activities. In Fact all alliance war quest line should be able to completed without any PvP activity and only by doing PvE of warring factions.

Avalon

Apache_Kid wrote: »

You're way off base here.

See when you are actually fighting an opponent that can think for them-self and doesn't do the same pattern of attack over and over and over again, certain skills and sets have the potential to make PvP not fun because their functions allow them to be abused.

Yeah sure, some people come on here and whine and complain whenever they can't counter something easily but there are many legitimate complaints about the way certain skills and sets perform in PvP.

Someone who only plays PvE, doesn't understand this because your enemies cannot think for themselves. They do the same exact attacks, in the same exact order, and they do not adjust their tactics to better themselves against your gameplay.

Yeah if all my enemies were like that in PvP i would probably never find any balance issues in PvP because it would be so easy.


You should get out of your comfort zone and fight an enemy that can actually think for once. Maybe you will see how it is different from PvE.

Sincerely,

A both PvP AND PvE player.

But... then shouldn't the mentalities the OP stated be reversed then, when they are not (and you seem to agree that they ARE this way, as well as the many posts from PvP players crying for balancing/nerfs)?

Consider what you said, that PvP players are against living, breathing opponents who "think for them-self and doesn't do the same pattern of attack over and over and over again"; and, PvE players are against opponents who "cannot think for themselves. They do the same exact attacks, in the same exact order, and they do not adjust their tactics to better themselves against your gameplay."

This means that the PvE players would be in a 'control' setting. If they just cannot beat something, then, obviously there is a balancing issue that needs fixed, BECAUSE the enemy is static, using the same moves every time and can be predicted. If the PvE player is at the top of their game, and has the absolute best of every possible circumstance, and still loses, then there is a problem that needs addressed in the game, not in the person.

However, for PvP... BECAUSE the enemies can think, coordinate, use different strategies, wear different sets, etc etc etc, on and on ad infinitum... Then, when you lose, it does not automatically mean "NERF THEM!!!" There is almost a certainty that the problem exists in any one of those numerous circumstances, NOT in the game or in balancing issues. But, yet, that is the go-to natural reply of a PvPer, that they lost, and it has to be due to the other class just being unbalanced and OP! Couldn't be that they were actually better than them (player skill matters), or that you just happened to have a bit less current stamina or magicka due to another fight recently, or that they were trying out a new idea on powers and set mixture and it happened to work this time (because it isn't widely used and you just were not prepared for the new idea yet), and so on...

PvP is a wild and chaotic thing, open to new ideas and strats at all times. Where PvE is the control, PvP is the experimental. If something does not work in the control under best possible circumstances, then the game needs to change. If it doesn't work under experimental circumstances: change the settings, try new ideas, etc. It almost NEVER means the game needs to change. But, that is the opposite of the mentalities we see all over the place, that you seem to agree occurs (you didn't dispute THAT part, only the reasons it happens), and then you gave perfect evidence for why it needs to stop, why those PvP mentalities are bad, and need to change.

ShadowKyuubi

Thank you Avalon.

VaranisArano

You have a very skewed view of PVPers because the PVPers who do pick themselves up and work out solutions generally:

A. Don't come to the forums and complain about little things
B. Don't broadcast their solutions. PVP is competitive. Why tell the enemy how to win?
C. Keep on playing, having adjusted just fine to the chabges, saving their complaints for stuff that truly makes problems for everyone

Who adjusts the best to PVP changes?
Organized Groups, because they are organized. That's why despite every PVP change we've seen, organized groups remain on top.


As for PVEers, its not like the raid bosses are going to complain. Instead, ZOS starts nerfing your powerful classes so other classes get a day in the sun AND to prevent PVEers from going back to the pre-Morrowind situation where trials teams were ripping through ZOS' hardest content and calling it easy-peasy lemon-squeezy. Basically, ZOS has to nerf PVE powere,creep or start developing hard content that the rest of the player base can't touch. (IMO, this is why ZOS made another choose-your-own-difficulty trial).


Ultimately what this cycle of needs and buffs comes down to is that ZOS wants us to be constantly updating our builds and characters, in both PVE and PVP. Satisfied players do the content and are satisfied, leaving the game eventually. Perpetually disatisfied players chasing the ever changing meta with its constantly shifting nerfs and buffs to regain that satisfaction play a lot longer before they finally give up.

Kel

DocDova wrote: »

Balance has to be struck between PvE and PvP. First step should providing PvE only instance of Cyrodiil and imperial city. Except for AP, everything should be earnable in PvE only instance as even Telvar can be earned by PvE activities. In Fact all alliance war quest line should be able to completed without any PvP activity and only by doing PvE of warring factions.

I never understood this..."Look guys, those PvP players actually have something unique to PvP! That should be ours too!!"
You want telvar, get in there and mix it up, just like everyone else. Without other players, it's just free telvar for everyone. Might as well hand out telvar in public dungeons.
It's easy....if you want the reward bad enough, do the thing that gives the reward. Most pvp'ers have to pve for thier sets as well as undaunted. If I can't earn undaunted in pvp, you can't earn telvar for pve.

Altercator

It's git gud you dope.

WhiteNoiseMaker

I personally don't care much for PVP. I don't need to rehash my issues with it, done it before.

That being said, I have friends on both sides, and it's always curious to be on the outside looking in when they compare each other to themselves.

"PVE'ers hit like fricking Mack Trucks" was one observation of one the PVP'ers. "No fortitude or self-healing, but it's all glass cannon 'laser beam from space' damage"

"PVP'ers try to do everything and don't trust anyone to do their specialized roles" was another bit from a PVE'er. "As a result, they're jack of all trades, and don't do as much DPS in boss fights."

For my part, I've noticed that PVP'ers are very good at sensing momentum and following it, this means they tend to move together and act aggressively wolfpack-style. Unfortunately this hurts them in organized PVE content as they don't tend to give tanks and healers space and grouping to optimally position and do their jobs. The bloodlust overcomes them, and they jump in for the kills, forgetting grouping, stacking, and so forth. However I also notice they tend to be (for better and worse) excellent survivors, often clawing their way out of a would-be party wipe, but at the expense of throwing someone on their side under the bus.

However hard-core PVE'ers, myself included, tend to be more number-crunch oriented, eking out every possible advantage we can, at the expense of organic thinking, preferring symmetrical tactics. There also tends to be more of a leaning towards 'fair-ness' in how they approach things. "How things *should* be..." so to speak, as opposed how things are, as PVP'ers see down and dirty muddy, bloody victory.

Is either approach wrong? I think they both have their lessons they can teach each other, but all too often the competitiveness I think of PVP'ers tends to turn off PVE'ers. And likewise the elite snobbery of end-game PVE'ers can also be a turn-off to PVP'ers. Ultimately I think it's culture clash, and probably too much to hope for that they would work well in a combined game. As seen in many other games, when the mechanics are split completely, there seems to be better balance and less antagonism between both cultures.

The_Smilemeister

Altercator wrote: »

It's git gud you dope.

I think typing mistakes are the least of OP's problems.

Voxicity

What even is this thread?

Takes-No-Prisoner

The same cannot be said for the PvP'ers. A few of them are resilient and pick themselves back up after a failure, however a lot of them just whine and complain to ZOS for more nerfs.

This is simply wrong. There are many many PvPers here who are passionate and have reasonable explanations as to why gear/builds/skills need to be toned down or buffed up.

Don't let the louder, less experienced players speak for the rest of us.

Thank you.

ShadowKyuubi

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

The same cannot be said for the PvP'ers. A few of them are resilient and pick themselves back up after a failure, however a lot of them just whine and complain to ZOS for more nerfs.

This is simply wrong. There are many many PvPers here who are passionate and have reasonable explanations as to why gear/builds/skills need to be toned down or buffed up.

Don't let the louder, less experienced players speak for the rest of us.

Thank you.

The louder, less experienced players are speaking for the PvP'ers. Thats the problem. I respect good, organized group of PvP'ers, they have a skill that I never will. I used to PvP, I wasn't good at any rate, but I still loved it. There is nothing like the feeling of a hundred player siege, it's awesome. And I admit, there are some changes that need to be implemented so exploits don't happen during PvP, but the first response of players shouldn't be nerfing.

TwistedThoughtz

As a pvper, I agree. People can’t understand how to counter somethings in pvp, so they complain instead. I believe there’s a counter to everything that’s considered “op” in pvp.

ZOS_Ragnar

PVP and PVE are both important parts of ESO and a thread such as this only serves to antagonize and disrupt the community. As this thread is provoking unnecessary conflict on the forums, we have closed it.