What do you expect from a healer in small scale?

exeeter702

So, id like to preface this with a recent squabble i had. I had queued into a BG with the intent to focus on healing as i always do, and upon entering the bg i noticed the name of an ally healer in the group. The name of the character was a silly proclamation regarding being an exceptional healer. Upon seeing the name, i made a slight smirkish quip into the mic along the lines of "lets see about that". The tone initially was harmless and met as a friendly challenge of sorts. However another individual in the group immediately took issue with what i said, responding quickly with "he is very good, been around for a while etc etc" pretty much a response fully defending the healer in question. I smirked and said all good, and clarified we have to healers so the DM should be in our favor assuming everyone has some form of lethal ie damage / pressure...

Throughout the match there was little talk, everyone just played. It was apparent we were going to loose, we didnt have the punch to overwhelm the leading team who also had a strong healer and they were farming the weakest team and got the advatnage. I never care that much about BGs outcomes naturally, its whatever for me, beem doing this too long in mmos to not get worked up over it, espeically in 3 team formats. However i felt compelled to make a comment, likely uncalled for i admit, but did so none the less. Upon losing i said in the mic that we didnt have enough pressure going out and the healer in question could have defintely provided some more punch than what was given (very little). The player who had defended him at the start immediately lashed out, saying the following things before leaving

"Learn how to play NB"
"Your terrible"
"You will never be as good as (Healer in question)"

Now the healer being good? Of that i have no doubt. But it got me thinking, what is better approach here? From where i come from and in my numerous years soent healing in pvp accross many mmos, a healer that only heals and relegates themselves to damage spongs, are nice in large scale unorganized endeavors, but a good healer always has agency and a way to press the advantage or assist in doing so. To be clear utiltiy is a given and is never to be neglected.

Just for a little bit of reference this is how the the match ended up numbers wise (i understand this is not always a reliable indicator).

Myself

The healer in question



So i ask you all.....

Waffennacht

I prefer a healer that brings damage/agency to the table in my group

When I PuG I personally hate a pure healer ally.

I'm not set up to take advantage of having a healer, I doubt the other PuG members are also set up to take advantage of it.

Same with a pure tank.

In a premade, hell yeah, you'll cover my weaknesses and I'll be way more lethal than normal.

In your specific situation, i want a healer that can get kills too

Edit: guessing purp won? More points and no negative kill death ratios
Edit edit: I know purp won lmfao

Anotherone773

I prefer a healer that brings damage/agency to the table in my group

If i heal in PUG BGs i do so as support rather than pure heals. My bars are usually set up one defensive and the other offensive. The defensive bar will have buffs and HoTs and usually combat prayer cause...combat prayer. Defensive is usually my back bar with my main bar being offensive. The offense bar will be debuffs, CC, and damage. It works out pretty well. I do notice when i give my mates that advantage they need to finish off an enemy or survive a fight.

I never go in as a pure tank or pure heals. Its either a support version of one of those or pure DPS.

Jimmy_The_Fixer

I prefer a healer that brings damage/agency to the table in my group

People tend to create builds that can manage their own health. Every remotely decent player slots a self heal because they aren't just praying that there's a healer nearby that can manage their health for them.

That's why you need to provide something other than healing for the team.

I've seen dedicated healers be effective, but only in full premades. Ultimately, you can be an extremely effective healer with a full dps setup and only 1-2 skill slots dedicated to healing spells.

Thogard

I prefer a healer that focuses purely on support without any form of lethal / pressure

I really want to agree with OP. Seems like a good guy with a good point.

But he’s a nightblade. Which means he’s trying to play as a healer without being able to provide a purify, which is the most important part of healing...

I’ve never liked those dmg or healing stat numbers. A lot of times the people with the highest numbers have the least effective builds. Using “dmg done” or “healing done” as a measure is like trying to determine who’s a good shot by how many bullets it took them to hit their target.
For dmg, it’s how many kills your team got. For healing, it’s how few deaths. If you want to spike stats, use rapid regen. If you want to prevent deaths and win, use healing ward.

It’s clear that your team was having trouble getting the killing blow. That’s a lot of assists for you and the 19-3 guy. You were probably getting out maneuvered. It doesn’t look like a mag sorc since no K/D on the winning team jumps out.. it just seems that they were able to kill their targets and you guys weren’t. Lotta shots fired, just didn’t hit a lot of bullseyes.

On a mag blade, you can get all the healing and defense your group needs by slotting healing ward and resto ult, and using wiz riposte.

All your other heals may sound nice, but they won’t keep someone alive if they’re getting bursted. All they’ll do is pad your stats while your team loses. Sorry for the hard truth bro, but that’s how it is. Magplar is heals/purify, mag nb is dmg, ward and extra resto ult.

Beardimus

I prefer a healer that focuses purely on support without any form of lethal / pressure

Heals, resources, debuff on enemy.

Let us DD do the DD.

Sure if you have a free hand throw a CC out or something perhaps.

ToRelax

I prefer a healer that brings damage/agency to the table in my group

For random groups, you want people able to hold their own and kill enemies, whether they focus more on getting kills for the team or supporting the other members.
In an organized premade (a group designed to fight other groups their level, using every synergy available, not a casual premade like most in BGs) healing and support skills become more important, but it's also not enough to do just that. I'd expect a good "healer" to at least fill one other role (tank/dd) reasonably well, if not all three. Won't be as good at those roles as a build focusing on them completely, but focusing entirely on keeping your team alive achieves the opposite if you allow the opposing team to deal significantly more damage.

exeeter702

Thogard wrote: »

I really want to agree with OP. Seems like a good guy with a good point.

But he’s a nightblade. Which means he’s trying to play as a healer without being able to provide a purify, which is the most important part of healing...

I’ve never liked those dmg or healing stat numbers. A lot of times the people with the highest numbers have the least effective builds. Using “dmg done” or “healing done” as a measure is like trying to determine who’s a good shot by how many bullets it took them to hit their target.
For dmg, it’s how many kills your team got. For healing, it’s how few deaths. If you want to spike stats, use rapid regen. If you want to prevent deaths and win, use healing ward.

It’s clear that your team was having trouble getting the killing blow. That’s a lot of assists for you and the 19-3 guy. You were probably getting out maneuvered. It doesn’t look like a mag sorc since no K/D on the winning team jumps out.. it just seems that they were able to kill their targets and you guys weren’t. Lotta shots fired, just didn’t hit a lot of bullseyes.

On a mag blade, you can get all the healing and defense your group needs by slotting healing ward and resto ult, and using wiz riposte.

All your other heals may sound nice, but they won’t keep someone alive if they’re getting bursted. All they’ll do is pad your stats while your team loses. Sorry for the hard truth bro, but that’s how it is. Magplar is heals/purify, mag nb is dmg, ward and extra resto ult.

For what its worth, efficient purge is slotted when needed (not often), especially compared to the lengthy cd and user limit per ritual synergy. And the ability to save someome from burst is very real, when you play nb in the role appropriately it becomes clear, the outgoing healing potency quite literally keeps people alive. Since i have the experience of healing on templar warden and nb, i draw the comparisons that i see.

Thanks though, but advice isnt really needed, i was curious as to what others belived to be important for them. Not trying to come off aggressive, and discussing the pros and cons of nb healing can be done in another thread as i enjoy that topic a great deal. Im quite confident in my ability to heal on NB compared to what a templar is capable of.

exeeter702

ToRelax wrote: »

For random groups, you want people able to hold their own and kill enemies, whether they focus more on getting kills for the team or supporting the other members.
In an organized premade (a group designed to fight other groups their level, using every synergy available, not a casual premade like most in BGs) healing and support skills become more important, but it's also not enough to do just that. I'd expect a good "healer" to at least fill one other role (tank/dd) reasonably well, if not all three. Won't be as good at those roles as a build focusing on them completely, but focusing entirely on keeping your team alive achieves the opposite if you allow the opposing team to deal significantly more damage.

I do agree with this entirely.

Brutusmax1mus

Any game mode, any game type, whether pvp or pve, the healers gotta be ready to do damage

Metemsycosis

I prefer a healer that brings damage/agency to the table in my group

^
And most Templar or nightblade builds have the tools to get kills. So they prolly ought to

SugaComa

Thogard wrote: »

I really want to agree with OP. Seems like a good guy with a good point.

But he’s a nightblade. Which means he’s trying to play as a healer without being able to provide a purify, which is the most important part of healing...

I’ve never liked those dmg or healing stat numbers. A lot of times the people with the highest numbers have the least effective builds. Using “dmg done” or “healing done” as a measure is like trying to determine who’s a good shot by how many bullets it took them to hit their target.
For dmg, it’s how many kills your team got. For healing, it’s how few deaths. If you want to spike stats, use rapid regen. If you want to prevent deaths and win, use healing ward.

It’s clear that your team was having trouble getting the killing blow. That’s a lot of assists for you and the 19-3 guy. You were probably getting out maneuvered. It doesn’t look like a mag sorc since no K/D on the winning team jumps out.. it just seems that they were able to kill their targets and you guys weren’t. Lotta shots fired, just didn’t hit a lot of bullseyes.

On a mag blade, you can get all the healing and defense your group needs by slotting healing ward and resto ult, and using wiz riposte.

All your other heals may sound nice, but they won’t keep someone alive if they’re getting bursted. All they’ll do is pad your stats while your team loses. Sorry for the hard truth bro, but that’s how it is. Magplar is heals/purify, mag nb is dmg, ward and extra resto ult.

How does being a nightblades mean no purify, you do know there is a purify from the cyrodil skill lines all can use that works just fine in small scale stuff like dungeons and BGs

Asmael

I don't think there is a definitive answer on this, as this heavily depends on your group composition.

In a team with 2-3 extremely high damage builds, having a healer purely focusing on healing / support is perfectly fine, because said pressure or burst damage isn't particularly needed. On the other end, if you soloQ or just happen to have a premade without too much damage, I fully expect the healer to provide some damage on his / her own.

Also, don't rely on those healing / damage done numbers in BGs, I had a deathmatch as a stam healer with 3m+ damage and 2m+ healing which ended that way because no team had any sort of burst damage, so I just laid down ground DoTs and let the numbers fly... It feels nice to watch at the end of a game, but doesn't indicate anything about the outcome of a match.

exeeter702

SugaComa wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

I really want to agree with OP. Seems like a good guy with a good point.

But he’s a nightblade. Which means he’s trying to play as a healer without being able to provide a purify, which is the most important part of healing...

I’ve never liked those dmg or healing stat numbers. A lot of times the people with the highest numbers have the least effective builds. Using “dmg done” or “healing done” as a measure is like trying to determine who’s a good shot by how many bullets it took them to hit their target.
For dmg, it’s how many kills your team got. For healing, it’s how few deaths. If you want to spike stats, use rapid regen. If you want to prevent deaths and win, use healing ward.

It’s clear that your team was having trouble getting the killing blow. That’s a lot of assists for you and the 19-3 guy. You were probably getting out maneuvered. It doesn’t look like a mag sorc since no K/D on the winning team jumps out.. it just seems that they were able to kill their targets and you guys weren’t. Lotta shots fired, just didn’t hit a lot of bullseyes.

On a mag blade, you can get all the healing and defense your group needs by slotting healing ward and resto ult, and using wiz riposte.

All your other heals may sound nice, but they won’t keep someone alive if they’re getting bursted. All they’ll do is pad your stats while your team loses. Sorry for the hard truth bro, but that’s how it is. Magplar is heals/purify, mag nb is dmg, ward and extra resto ult.

How does being a nightblades mean no purify, you do know there is a purify from the cyrodil skill lines all can use that works just fine in small scale stuff like dungeons and BGs

Well to be fair, ritual is an additional synergy for alies to use so there is that small additional benefit. But ultimatley i do agree. The trade off is aoe purge with no CD (purify synergy has a CD) that can effect multiple allies with a heavy cost vs larger application range of ritual, additonal heal and synergy, cheaper cost.

Frankly, in my experience, unless you are desperately trying to los or escape something, most debuffs in this game are reapplied constantly. The advantage window of purging is very small. And the critical debuffs that a healer knows to look out for and react to can be covered by efficient purge.

exeeter702

Asmael wrote: »

I don't think there is a definitive answer on this, as this heavily depends on your group composition.

In a team with 2-3 extremely high damage builds, having a healer purely focusing on healing / support is perfectly fine, because said pressure or burst damage isn't particularly needed. On the other end, if you soloQ or just happen to have a premade without too much damage, I fully expect the healer to provide some damage on his / her own.

Also, don't rely on those healing / damage done numbers in BGs, I had a deathmatch as a stam healer with 3m+ damage and 2m+ healing which ended that way because no team had any sort of burst damage, so I just laid down ground DoTs and let the numbers fly... It feels nice to watch at the end of a game, but doesn't indicate anything about the outcome of a match.

Ultimately that is true, however most of the time that end game numbers get artificially inflated is when you have an extraordinarily tanky damage sponge on the recieving end, and a long drawn out game, where they allow so much damage and healing to add up. Ofc you have games with 200k damage and games with 1m plus damage. But the screen shots were shown not to focus on the numbers themselves, but to show the discrepancy between both healers relative to the match. Since overhealing isnt tracked, and NB hots are very strong generally in the 4k a second range, its easy to determine how much damage you are really mitigating even if you are throwing them into a 40k hp tank (which is a waste nor did we have one on our team).

Smart players generally know what to take from those score screens and what to disregard.

wheem_ESO

It depends. A healer that can also deal fairly good damage can work really well at times, but, as the enemy's offensive power increases, the effectiveness of this playstyle sharply drops off. The more incoming damage there is - especially focus fired damage - the smaller your offensive window becomes, eventually getting to the point that you don't really have one.

When it comes to going up against premade teams (or even a group of high damage solo queued players), you really need to pick between either being a healer or being a damage dealer (with perhaps some off-healing). Trying to be a healer that does hundreds of thousands of damage on the scoreboard is just going to leave you in a situation where you're not likely to be landing many kills, or saving your teammates, or even surviving very well yourself (though a Magblade may still be able to escape, depending on enemy team composition).

In these more difficult situations, I think you really need to be in a highly defensive setup as a healer, and that involves heavy armor, permablocking, no damage-oriented gear sets, and preferably being a Templar. Between having an easy-to-use burst heal (which can't be shut down by killing a pet), and having the only affordable cleanse, Magicka Templar is the clear cut winner for a dedicated healer. That's not to say that the other classes are 100% unable to perform the role, but they are most certainly not as good. If ESO had a competitive ladder system with 4v4 (or larger) teams, I feel pretty confident that virtually all of the top teams' healers would be Templars who were running very defensive, low damage setups.

DeadlyRecluse

Neither.

You queue solo, you take what you get. Don't get salty about bad teammates, bad comps, etc. etc. You know what you signed up for when you queued.

You queue as a group, talk to your group, mutually decide on who is bringing what to the table. There's a place for a pure healer, there's a place for crossheals and DPS contributions from everyone.

exeeter702

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It depends. A healer that can also deal fairly good damage can work really well at times, but, as the enemy's offensive power increases, the effectiveness of this playstyle sharply drops off. The more incoming damage there is - especially focus fired damage - the smaller your offensive window becomes, eventually getting to the point that you don't really have one.

When it comes to going up against premade teams (or even a group of high damage solo queued players), you really need to pick between either being a healer or being a damage dealer (with perhaps some off-healing). Trying to be a healer that does hundreds of thousands of damage on the scoreboard is just going to leave you in a situation where you're not likely to be landing many kills, or saving your teammates, or even surviving very well yourself (though a Magblade may still be able to escape, depending on enemy team composition).

In these more difficult situations, I think you really need to be in a highly defensive setup as a healer, and that involves heavy armor, permablocking, no damage-oriented gear sets, and preferably being a Templar. Between having an easy-to-use burst heal (which can't be shut down by killing a pet), and having the only affordable cleanse, Magicka Templar is the clear cut winner for a dedicated healer. That's not to say that the other classes are 100% unable to perform the role, but they are most certainly not as good. If ESO had a competitive ladder system with 4v4 (or larger) teams, I feel pretty confident that virtually all of the top teams' healers would be Templars who were running very defensive, low damage setups.

Understand that no healing throughput is sacrificed when providing damage. That seems to be the confusion here. Its not "do i sacrifice healing to deal damage or vice versa" knowing how to survive pressure is paramount on a healer regardless. Riposte and trans are hardly damage sets. Its not about making an effort to produce damage (nbs ability to do that while healing is not lost on me obv.) Its about playing the healer right and making the effort to incorperate offensive options into an established healing build.

I STRONGLY disagree with your last statement.

CatchMeTrolling

Don’t queue up solo as a healer, it doesn’t work unless you have competent teammates that’ll take advantage of it. Having a healer can automatically put your team in the best position to win, more so in bgs.

Never really had a pocket healer , I’d expect purges, shards, guard and some form of utility if I did have one. Other than that the occasional near death heal because I can usually keep myself alive.

If anything know how to position and reposition yourself, this goes for any playstyle but it’s more crucial as a healer.

Thogard

I prefer a healer that focuses purely on support without any form of lethal / pressure

exeeter702 wrote: »

Frankly, in my experience, unless you are desperately trying to los or escape something, most debuffs in this game are reapplied constantly. The advantage window of purging is very small. And the critical debuffs that a healer knows to look out for and react to can be covered by efficient purge.

purify is an absolute requirement to save yourself from a coordinated burst from another team. You dont need to worry about the fact that 2-5s later the debuffs will apply - the important thing is taht when those DBs and executes hit you, you're able to purify as they're coming in and get that defile off of you during the 1-2 seconds when you need it gone the most.

The alliance skill "purge" doesn't really do that...

Metemsycosis

I prefer a healer that brings damage/agency to the table in my group

People forget how easily mageblade applies maim to enemies, and how much damage that mitigates. It's on demand and doesn't require the healer be under attack to take effect.

Also people forget how much healing comes from damage (it's not a damage or heal scenario wrt mageblade healing).

Purify is fine, can be coupled with resto ult passive effects, and doesnt require reaction from its recipient. Also adds magicka recovery.

Templars who deal aoe damage and execute people but concentrate mostly on tanking and healing are obviously more useful than those that don't. Idk how this is even a debate. Esp for solo queue BGs.

dazee

I prefer a healer that brings damage/agency to the table in my group

Damage for healers is important, not as important as for dps but important. If only tanks in ESO could do similar damage while doing their job well like healers can.. this is why I hate ESO tanking and just dont. Along with the fact you basically NEED sword and board for vet content.

exeeter702

Thogard wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Frankly, in my experience, unless you are desperately trying to los or escape something, most debuffs in this game are reapplied constantly. The advantage window of purging is very small. And the critical debuffs that a healer knows to look out for and react to can be covered by efficient purge.

purify is an absolute requirement to save yourself from a coordinated burst from another team. You dont need to worry about the fact that 2-5s later the debuffs will apply - the important thing is taht when those DBs and executes hit you, you're able to purify as they're coming in and get that defile off of you during the 1-2 seconds when you need it gone the most.

The alliance skill "purge" doesn't really do that...

for sure, dismissing the strengths of purify would be very ignorant. But there are ways nbs can escape coordinated set ups after a break free, and again its important to acknowledge that magblades have much more potent passive healing which absolutely allieviates some pressure for the second or 2 you CCd. Between, purge, mutagen pop and image swap, It has never been my experience that "without purify, you wont survive a coordinated assault".

I dont mean to derail this into nb healing vs Templar healing. Ultimately i feel templars come out on top, but not NEARLY as pronounced as many assume.

Kas

neither, as with all other roles, I'd prefer someone who adjusts to the circumstances and switches roles accordingly. sure, that may be a lot easier on PC where add-ons allow for quick changes of full equip and skills. still, this also relates to playstyle.

dazee

I prefer a healer that brings damage/agency to the table in my group

Sorc healers best healers.

Tucker3711

I prefer a healer that focuses purely on support without any form of lethal / pressure

I just wanna live!