Why is Zenny now buffing LA?? - I thought we were being encouraged to use HA for sustain?

StackonClown

With the apparent mega incoming buffs to LA, what do you think this is supposed to encourage or favour now?

> Doesn't this just mean that Zenny is actively promoting weaving (which apparently was unintended all along) and therefore favouring PRO players with perfected weaved rotations?
> Surely they can't be promoting LA bow spamming?

I mainly use HA builds - does this mean HA builds will now be dead?

GreenhaloX

HA in itself is underperforming in PvP against LA with Empowered Ward or any of the Annulment morph. Now, LA is getting a buff. Oh Lord, them LA will surely be more tanky than any HA as it is already can be. Well, unless you're a HA Argonian Magplar with S&B that spams healing or a HA MagDK. Otherwise, HA for any other toon class is still butter for a lot of hard-hitting toons/players; particularly those bunny-hopping Magsorcs or ganky-arse Stamblades spamming Lethal Arrows with 3-4 shots in under a second.

VaranisArano

Yes, ZOS is now promoting LA weaving and has been for some time now.

Morgul667

Zos logic

Lets nerf players regen so they use heavy attack
Now that they git used to it buff again light attack just because

Sparr0w

Didn't they accept and embrace it long ago?

Also they are enforcing the fact HA are used for resources by dropping the damage... semi answered yourself there

NupidStoob

The whole point was to add scaling from max resources to LA, not to buff them as strong as they are right now. LA will be nerved before it hits live.

Weaving is long part of the game and ZoS has acknowledged that it will stay. The addition to the leveling advisor is just the final confirmation, so I am not sure why people are still so hung up on it being "unintended".

Heavy attacks are clearly intended to be a resource recovery tool. The recent changes to offbalance made that very obvious.

It all comes down to creating meaningful combat where you can react to things rather than having to blindly spam the same rotation over and over and over. It becomes really boring once you know a rotation by heart and have to beat something with 100mil hp for 10+ minutes.

I just hope that stamina will be stronger than magicka by the end of PTS as well as some classchanges and this will be a great patch balance wise.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

StackonClown wrote: »

With the apparent mega incoming buffs to LA, what do you think this is supposed to encourage or favour now?

> Doesn't this just mean that Zenny is actively promoting weaving (which apparently was unintended all along) and therefore favouring PRO players with perfected weaved rotations?
> Surely they can't be promoting LA bow spamming?

I mainly use HA builds - does this mean HA builds will now be dead?

There is an entire class designed around weaving, it's called a NB. The Devs actively promote weaving, and have been for a while. Weaving is not Animation canceling, which is what I think you were referring to as being unintended. Lets not have that conversation though, because anyone that actually understands combat in this game would realize that if you couldnt block cancel skills, this game would be REALLY frustrating to play.

Will a light attack bow spam perhaps do more DPS? Yep!!! Is that a bad thing? Maybe not if I am being honest. Will certainly help groupfinder and be mostly irrelevant to competitive end game.

Is your heavy attack build okay? On the PTS, my heavy attack sorc build (which is by design the easiest possible rotation in the game) was doing about 46k DPS on the PTS, which is a noticable buff (6-7k) from last patch, and still ahead of what it was 2 patches ago before it got nerfed. Only changes I made from live was to incorporate a second 5 piece set (mechanical acuity) and recklessly spend my extra 10 CP.

Zenimax clearly stated in the PTS patch notes that they want Light attacks to be about damage and heavy attacks to be about resources.

Also, even an a heavy attack build where you heavy attack 1-2 times per rotation, you should still be light weaving 3-4 times per rotation.

Aurielle

GreenhaloX wrote: »

HA in itself is underperforming in PvP against LA with Empowered Ward or any of the Annulment morph. Now, LA is getting a buff. Oh Lord, them LA will surely be more tanky than any HA as it is already can be. Well, unless you're a HA Argonian Magplar with S&B that spams healing or a HA MagDK. Otherwise, HA for any other toon class is still butter for a lot of hard-hitting toons/players; particularly those bunny-hopping Magsorcs or ganky-arse Stamblades spamming Lethal Arrows with 3-4 shots in under a second.

I think you’ve got your abbreviations mixed up here... LA in this context means light attack (not light armour), and HA means heavy attack (not heavy armour). There’s no specific buff to light armour in Summerset that I’m aware of.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Also, if anyone read today's patch notes, they just nerfed LA damage by 20%.

Brantleyx

HA meta was pushed because of resource changes in Morrowwind with CP and other things. Now that the CP is continuously rising we are gaining our sustain back; Hence why there arent many HA rotations viable in PVE currently.

ak_pvp

I have given up on knowing what they want. Lets nerf sustain, everyone goes to heavies, lets nerf heavies, lets buff light attack, lets nerf light attack and heavies.

BaneOfBattler

This horse is dead, move on.

StackonClown

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

StackonClown wrote: »

With the apparent mega incoming buffs to LA, what do you think this is supposed to encourage or favour now?

> Doesn't this just mean that Zenny is actively promoting weaving (which apparently was unintended all along) and therefore favouring PRO players with perfected weaved rotations?
> Surely they can't be promoting LA bow spamming?

I mainly use HA builds - does this mean HA builds will now be dead?

There is an entire class designed around weaving, it's called a NB. The Devs actively promote weaving, and have been for a while. Weaving is not Animation canceling, which is what I think you were referring to as being unintended. Lets not have that conversation though, because anyone that actually understands combat in this game would realize that if you couldnt block cancel skills, this game would be REALLY frustrating to play.

Will a light attack bow spam perhaps do more DPS? Yep!!! Is that a bad thing? Maybe not if I am being honest. Will certainly help groupfinder and be mostly irrelevant to competitive end game.

Is your heavy attack build okay? On the PTS, my heavy attack sorc build (which is by design the easiest possible rotation in the game) was doing about 46k DPS on the PTS, which is a noticable buff (6-7k) from last patch, and still ahead of what it was 2 patches ago before it got nerfed. Only changes I made from live was to incorporate a second 5 piece set (mechanical acuity) and recklessly spend my extra 10 CP.

Zenimax clearly stated in the PTS patch notes that they want Light attacks to be about damage and heavy attacks to be about resources.

Also, even an a heavy attack build where you heavy attack 1-2 times per rotation, you should still be light weaving 3-4 times per rotation.

thanks for the explanations! seems you put a lot of thought into this.
As always we will adjust and move on but I think your statement 'Light attacks to be about damage and heavy attacks to be about resources. ' from the notes is a nice summary.

Lord-Otto

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Also, if anyone read today's patch notes, they just nerfed LA damage by 20%.

Tested sorc with the new values yet? Also planning on Necro/MA/Ilamb, but can't say whether light attack or heavy attack rotation will perform better.

DoobZ69

Could someone explain to me what the actual problem is?

Nerfing Heavy damage doesn't affect resource gain as it is a flat rate anyway and there is an expansion about to come out which changes combat mechanics by quite a large amount. Surely they seem to feel people prefer(or are resorted to) to build around Heavy attack damage/sustain and are trying to introduce more build variety. I primarily play a tank and mainly use heavy attacks for sustain, not damage, and this seems consistent with what ZOS are doing, they're incentivising both heavy AND light attacks to be part of combat.

I can't comment on PvP but I believe it isn't designed around stand-your-ground style of play, so who cares about heavy attacks? If you focus on regen then your total stam/mag pool will be low and cause you to deal less damage, balancing itself out against light attacks damage increase. If you focus on high pool then your skill options has a finite point forcing you to rely on light attacks for damage and other skills for utility (healing,snaring, etc.). Again, this balances itself out. I have to say I think this allows for diversity.

I think these changes promote freedom in how a player builds their character. What issues do you have with the changes?

Yamenstein

StackonClown wrote: »

With the apparent mega incoming buffs to LA, what do you think this is supposed to encourage or favour now?

> Doesn't this just mean that Zenny is actively promoting weaving (which apparently was unintended all along) and therefore favouring PRO players with perfected weaved rotations?
> Surely they can't be promoting LA bow spamming?

I mainly use HA builds - does this mean HA builds will now be dead?

Though weaving was not intended they have come out and said it's part of the game now. It's not favouring any players, just learn how to weave. Don't need to be a pro to learn that.

Not sure if LA bow spamming is meant to be a thing, sounds like a L2P issue if people are doing that.

LA will cause increased damage with the buffs and empowerment, but HA will be returning resources.

dodgehopper_ESO

Purely from a logic standpoint it strikes me as odd that a heavy attack would not be a heavy damage strike. It telegraphs and puts all your character's force behind it, making it easier to exploit or avoid. As I stand back and look at the whole thing its one of those moments where combat and video game combat don't mesh in a logical way (not that they usually do). As I'm still wishing characters would stop looking behind themselves in a fight I'll stick with that fight. I really find it annoying the sloppiness in which these supposedly veteran heroes manage to not keep their eye on the fight. That's the mistake of a neophyte. Even TKD or Wushu guys know better than to do that and train to snap their heads around to the target.

firedrgn

Seems like the lightning staff is kinda clunky for light weave . Maybe its just me. I see the ability buttons press in but they dont fire off unless i mash multipull times on buttons. Maybe its my 230 ping. Also did they changfe the curse hit box size. Seems like u have to be rivht on and if boss moves even a bit it wont fire.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Also, if anyone read today's patch notes, they just nerfed LA damage by 20%.

Tested sorc with the new values yet? Also planning on Necro/MA/Ilamb, but can't say whether light attack or heavy attack rotation will perform better.

@Lord-Otto

I havent since last week before the nerf. I will get on in the next day or two. I tested that setup MA/Necro with a few different monster sets. Its a big buff because now our Necro is buffing our LA/HA damage, which is nice. I think it will still be well over 40k after the nerf. I think that a light attack build (one where you only use HAs when you have to) is going to pull noticeably ahead of the much simpler heavy attack rotation that uses 1-2 per rotation, as it most certainly should.

I also want to test out the new spammable, elemental weapon, on a sorc. On a NB, it was markedly ahead of both funnel and FP and costs a lot less. I am hoping that a sorc with witchmothers and a a cheaper spammable will be able to sustain without too many HAs this patch. I honestly have been on a NB for the last 6 months, so the sorc is a bit rusty.

Lord-Otto

@Oreyn_Bearclaw
Ooh, that would be so great if we could finally get back to light rotation! I'm cautiously sceptic about Imbue, but if it should turn out to be working... GREAT!
=D

Seraphayel

The devs are promoting weaving because they are not capable of fixing/removing animation cancelling. It was never planned by the devs to have this in game but to embrace a broken gameplay system is a fine "solution" to save their faces.

Nidro

Seraphayel wrote: »

The devs are promoting weaving because they are not capable of fixing/removing animation cancelling. It was never planned by the devs to have this in game but to embrace a broken gameplay system is a fine "solution" to save their faces.

u mad bro?

git gut at AC

Seraphayel

Nidro wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

The devs are promoting weaving because they are not capable of fixing/removing animation cancelling. It was never planned by the devs to have this in game but to embrace a broken gameplay system is a fine "solution" to save their faces.

u mad bro?

git gut at AC

I am not mad, that's just how it is. Has nothing to do with "git gut" either. I am playing this game since 2014 and they changed their mind about it the time they realized they're not capable of fixing animation cancelling. It's a massive game mechanics bug that has been turned into a "feature".

Septimus_Magna

Light attacks deal more dps but heavy attacks restore more resources.
The benefit of a heavy attack rotation is that you dont have to worry about sustain as much.
On my mag sorc I usually run a heavy attack build when I have to shield a lot or purge the group.

Seraphayel wrote: »

The devs are promoting weaving because they are not capable of fixing/removing animation cancelling. It was never planned by the devs to have this in game but to embrace a broken gameplay system is a fine "solution" to save their faces.

You underestimate the importance of action priority over skill animations. Do you know how unresponsive your char would be if you had to wait for every skill animation to complete before you can do another action? In a game with active dodging, blocking, interrupting etc you need the responsiveness.

Turelus

I never cared about weaving being in the game when it wasn't mandatory, now it's slowly becoming the mandatory combat design I am pretty sad about it.

I just hope ZOS doesn't start balancing around this entirely, there needs to be room for people who can't animation cancel spam for 50K+ to be able to achieve content even if it just takes them more time.

StackonClown

Yamenstein wrote: »

StackonClown wrote: »

With the apparent mega incoming buffs to LA, what do you think this is supposed to encourage or favour now?

> Doesn't this just mean that Zenny is actively promoting weaving (which apparently was unintended all along) and therefore favouring PRO players with perfected weaved rotations?
> Surely they can't be promoting LA bow spamming?

I mainly use HA builds - does this mean HA builds will now be dead?

Though weaving was not intended they have come out and said it's part of the game now. It's not favouring any players, just learn how to weave. Don't need to be a pro to learn that.

Not sure if LA bow spamming is meant to be a thing, sounds like a L2P issue if people are doing that.

LA will cause increased damage with the buffs and empowerment, but HA will be returning resources.

one thing though - when looking at the destro passive tri-focus, why is it solely focused on buffing HA damage if HA is overwhelmingly about recovering resources ?

"While using a Destruction Staff Heavy Attack:
Grants bonus affects based on the element used:
Fully charged heavy fire attacks deal 12% additional damage.
Fully charged heavy frost attacks grant a damage shield that absorbs 2[x] damage.
Fully charged heavy shock attacks damage nearby enemies for 100% of the damage done."

Shouldn't such a passive be buffing resource recovery or sumfin ?

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Lord-Otto wrote: »

@Oreyn_Bearclaw
Ooh, that would be so great if we could finally get back to light rotation! I'm cautiously sceptic about Imbue, but if it should turn out to be working... GREAT!
=D

@Lord-Otto
Yeah, it's hard to know what will make it to live, but I was fairly surprised at how powerful the skill was. My first parse with it on a mageblade really shocked me because I was at execute phase like 6-7 seconds ahead of the usual pace. It also feels pretty good with the weave. Never been a huge fan of a funnel weave, always felt a bit off, but maybe that's because I learned on FP.

swirve

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Also, if anyone read today's patch notes, they just nerfed LA damage by 20%.

Because people were laughing at how stupidly OP LA has become... 20% is just a start.

Bigevilpeter

LA were nerfed by 20%now, but also rotation shouldnt be all light attacks or heavy attacks it should be a mix of both LA for damage and HA for sustain

Septimus_Magna

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

LA were nerfed by 20%now, but also rotation shouldnt be all light attacks or heavy attacks it should be a mix of both LA for damage and HA for sustain

I agree, in a perfect world you wouldnt need to heavy attack because its simply a dps loss.
In reality its often needed, I dont think its that bad to HA once every other rotation.

Too many people want to run a dummy rotation in trail environments which usually isnt really viable.

Vaoh

Turelus wrote: »

I never cared about weaving being in the game when it wasn't mandatory, now it's slowly becoming the mandatory combat design I am pretty sad about it.

I just hope ZOS doesn't start balancing around this entirely, there needs to be room for people who can't animation cancel spam for 50K+ to be able to achieve content even if it just takes them more time.

If you’re asking for ppl to be able to pull 50K+ DPS with no light attacking I would entirely disagree with you. It would be really bad if high DPS was achievable without light attacks (imagine the DPS *with* Light attacks in that scenario).

However, you absolutely can achieve just about anything in this game without animation cancelling. Someone who avoids weaving (which is an official in-game, cited mechanic in the Level-Up Advisor) likely wouldn’t care for rotations either, so there are a lot of things adding to them not reaching high DPS numbers other than weaving.

Lastly I 100% prefer a DPS meta focused around casting skills+light attacks to something like Heavy Attack -> Skill -> Heavy Attack -> Skill -> Repeat. I don’t like ZOS adding damage to light attacks like they’ve been doing though which encourages light attacking more than needed. There are better ways to increase overall DPS.