make vets joinable if done normal

Sergykid

some people hop into veteran dungeons without even knowing tactics, let not say about being prepared regarding skill/gear, thus ruining the experience of the other 3 players.

just as some dungeons become available at a certain level, so the veteran version of a dungeon becomes available after beating the normal version.

karekiz

Maybe for DLC, but no to base game dungeons.

vMaick

I like this idea, but its gotta be account wide, not character bound

josiahva

or...just dont pug? Its a roll of the dice, what you get with group finder...but group finder is completely optional. Surely you have 5 guilds? And you cant find someone to play with to avoid a pug still? Cant lfg in zone chat? Insist on group finder? Then suck it up and work with what you get.

IndianaGeoff

I would rather have a option as a group to rerun a dungeon on vet after a normal. Sometimes random groups click.

Sergykid

josiahva wrote: »

or...just dont pug? Its a roll of the dice, what you get with group finder...but group finder is completely optional. Surely you have 5 guilds? And you cant find someone to play with to avoid a pug still? Cant lfg in zone chat? Insist on group finder? Then suck it up and work with what you get.

you people who come with "just don't pug" never understand the situation, right? just like saying i don't like the water from that shop, "then don't buy water".

not all the times you get an acceptable group. Not all the times the guilds have people waiting for you to run a dungeon with. Who barely even ever uses the zone chat? I could wait 15 minutes searching for people in guild or zone chat, or i could finish the vet dungeon in 15 minutes with a group that knows tactics.

Mureel

karekiz wrote: »

Maybe for DLC, but no to base game dungeons.

as for DLC there are many mechanics that don't really occur on vet. Very few normal dungeons will prepare you for vet counterparts with regard to DLC.

You'll get instagibbed if you try some of the things people get up to on normal.

DuskMarine

Sergykid wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

or...just dont pug? Its a roll of the dice, what you get with group finder...but group finder is completely optional. Surely you have 5 guilds? And you cant find someone to play with to avoid a pug still? Cant lfg in zone chat? Insist on group finder? Then suck it up and work with what you get.

you people who come with "just don't pug" never understand the situation, right? just like saying i don't like the water from that shop, "then don't buy water".

not all the times you get an acceptable group. Not all the times the guilds have people waiting for you to run a dungeon with. Who barely even ever uses the zone chat? I could wait 15 minutes searching for people in guild or zone chat, or i could finish the vet dungeon in 15 minutes with a group that knows tactics.

the people who say just dont pug are sort of right. going in with people you dont know already hurts the situation the inability to talk also hurts it as well. going with people your friends with would help a ton.

Istoppucks

Doing normal wont guarantee they will still know the mechan. Ive ran a bunch of normals where there are two 720 speed running no chance a new player would learn anything .

Merlin13KAGL

While I appreciate the sentiment behind the idea, it adds little more than a minor stumbling block for most, as normals teach absolutely nothing about the dungeon, in most cases.

So you're only going to avoid people in one of two situations:

1. The first time through, because they've never set foot.
2. Their group is truly so gawd awful bad they can't clear norm.

Needs to be more of a 'certification of skills' for role, etc. A gauntlet where you can get rated ; a training area where you can improve on your own time.

Until such a thing is added to the game, the only real evidence of capability is going to be the hard stop you're still going to run unto, in as little as someone's second run through.

Sergykid

you'll miss higher damage and some mechanics from bosses, but at least you'll learn where are the bosses, their abilities, the course of the dungeon, that the red area damages you, that you must break free to stop boss from healing, that you must kill atronachs before damaging the boss, and the examples can go on from various dungeons.

Sometimes i see people hitting for 2+ minutes the boss without even seeing there's a shield on it and they do no damage. The worst thing is they don't even read chat when you tell them "kill ads". It not only helps other players getting better teammates, it also teaches people who never done that dungeon what he must do and what does it look like, before putting him against the harder version of it.

Kolache

There are a lot of clever things they could do to make sure people weren't queueing for the wrong content, but I think some easy wins would be:
1. Add a CP160 vet dungeon queue requirement (seriously, just do normal)
2. Add a toggle for DLC dungeons to the random queue

People that are not ready/willing for certain content get berated, booted, or just quit with queue time lost. "Don't PUG" is just a lazy non-answer that would be better suited for the exception, not the rule. The exception should be that if you want to get carried through content then you should form a group with your buddies that want to carry you instead of doing a PUG.

Personally, I just put on some different gear and tank if I want instant queue times--the people that you would prevent from joining these groups are the ones you'd be helping.

josiahva

Sergykid wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

or...just dont pug? Its a roll of the dice, what you get with group finder...but group finder is completely optional. Surely you have 5 guilds? And you cant find someone to play with to avoid a pug still? Cant lfg in zone chat? Insist on group finder? Then suck it up and work with what you get.

you people who come with "just don't pug" never understand the situation, right? just like saying i don't like the water from that shop, "then don't buy water".

not all the times you get an acceptable group. Not all the times the guilds have people waiting for you to run a dungeon with. Who barely even ever uses the zone chat? I could wait 15 minutes searching for people in guild or zone chat, or i could finish the vet dungeon in 15 minutes with a group that knows tactics.

Come on now, I pug ALL THE TIME and almost never have issues finishing dungeons. The ONLY dungeon I have yet to successfully pug is vFH...and its only the last 15% that is even an issue there. If you communicate problems with your group members, you will be able to work through them 95% of the time. I was in vICP at the last boss the other night and was able to complete it with a couple of of sub-200CP new players...its not that hard.

WrathOfInnos

IIRC it used to be this way, back before One Tamriel. You had to do normal (or "1") before vet (or "2").

NordSwordnBoard

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

IIRC it used to be this way, back before One Tamriel. You had to do normal (or "1") before vet (or "2").

I think you're right, and if it wasn't, it was usually in one's best interest to not try COAII before COAI based on difficulty.

Violynne

I thought this was already required, or at least it was? The game's changed on me since I last played.

I'm pretty sure I couldn't select "II" without first completing "I".

As for the suggestion, I'm onboard. Too many players rush in to Vet and then spend time complaining why they were kicked or how it's too hard.

Baby steps.

WillhelmBlack

Give em a break. How do you learn the mechanics otherwise?

Not many I dungeons prepare you for II dungeons. The bosses are completely different in some cases.

This game is 4 years old though, you should be able to specify CP range in group finder.

josiahva

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Give em a break. How do you learn the mechanics otherwise?

Not many I dungeons prepare you for II dungeons. The bosses are completely different in some cases.

This game is 4 years old though, you should be able to specify CP range in group finder.

No you shouldn't. This would allow everyone to exclude low CP players...there is already enough elitism in this game, no reason to enable more. When will people realize that CP means NOTHING in this game. If you consistently get stuck with groups you cant finish a dungeon with...just dont pug. I have 5 guilds with 200+ players each...and 100 friends on my list...that gives me 1100 players to find a group to do content with....I have no issue whatsoever finding a group if I dont feel like pugging...and others have exactly the same(or more) tools to work with.

NewBlacksmurf

karekiz wrote: »

Maybe for DLC, but no to base game dungeons.

Actually I think the OP is a solid suggestion for all cases, base game and all DLC or Chapters.
It the way it should work...as well as version 2 of dungeons.

zaria

Violynne wrote: »

I thought this was already required, or at least it was? The game's changed on me since I last played.

I'm pretty sure I couldn't select "II" without first completing "I".

As for the suggestion, I'm onboard. Too many players rush in to Vet and then spend time complaining why they were kicked or how it's too hard.

Baby steps.

In normal dungeons its level requirements, the 2 dungeons is 45 i think.
Mechanic is also totally different with 2 having far more mechanic . 2 dungeons story tend to continue the 1 story.
I tend to do dungeons in normal first for the quest.

WillhelmBlack

josiahva wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Give em a break. How do you learn the mechanics otherwise?

Not many I dungeons prepare you for II dungeons. The bosses are completely different in some cases.

This game is 4 years old though, you should be able to specify CP range in group finder.

No you shouldn't. This would allow everyone to exclude low CP players...there is already enough elitism in this game, no reason to enable more. When will people realize that CP means NOTHING in this game. If you consistently get stuck with groups you cant finish a dungeon with...just dont pug. I have 5 guilds with 200+ players each...and 100 friends on my list...that gives me 1100 players to find a group to do content with....I have no issue whatsoever finding a group if I dont feel like pugging...and others have exactly the same(or more) tools to work with.

Aight, then make Undaunted as fast to achieve as Vigor and Caltrops then because I'm getting kinda tired of not being able to complete dungeons because the healer died or the tank isn't collecting adds. I'm ok at PvE but I can't carry 3 group members ranging from 200-400 CP through vet dungeons, I can't fill all roles. I DO, explain as best I can but I haven't even done all dungeons myself or haven't done them for several months/years at least.

The dungeon scaling sucks for a game that's primarily supposed to be PvE. A two tier system that's it. Aren't most vet dungeons set to CP150? What the hell does that even mean? You can get to CP150 in a few days with Crown store boosts killing mudcrabs. Not exactly gonna prepare you for tanking 2 bosses and 5 adds is it? Most players at around the CP500 mark seem to have no problems with vet dungeons regardless of mechanics.

My proposition is simple:

easy -non-vet awards sets and 5 undaunted
normal-CP150-CP300 awards blue sets and blue monster helms and 10 undaunted
hard-CP300-CP550 awards purple sets, purple monster helms and 20 undaunted
hardest-CP550-CP750 awards purple sets, purple monster helms and 40 undaunted (this would be the equivalent of HM as it is now)

As a <300CP player you can still upgrade everything next update, even though the difference between blue and gold jewellery is actually minimal.

Kolache

josiahva wrote: »

When will people realize that CP means NOTHING in this game.

At a minimum, it means that you're looting gear not worth trading when you're under CP160. Beyond that, while having higher CP doesn't guarantee decent DPS, having low CP and mismatched crap gear guarantees low DPS.

Of course we can change nothing and just let lowbies get booted from randoms that they're allowed to queue for without anything in place to discourage that from happening I guess?

WillhelmBlack

Kolache wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

When will people realize that CP means NOTHING in this game.

At a minimum, it means that you're looting gear not worth trading when you're under CP160. Beyond that, while having higher CP doesn't guarantee decent DPS, having low CP and mismatched crap gear guarantees low DPS.

Of course we can change nothing and just let lowbies get booted from randoms that they're allowed to queue for without anything in place to discourage that from happening I guess?

This. Or I leave on the last boss because I haven't got all day to do one dungeon.

Sergykid

josiahva wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

or...just dont pug? Its a roll of the dice, what you get with group finder...but group finder is completely optional. Surely you have 5 guilds? And you cant find someone to play with to avoid a pug still? Cant lfg in zone chat? Insist on group finder? Then suck it up and work with what you get.

you people who come with "just don't pug" never understand the situation, right? just like saying i don't like the water from that shop, "then don't buy water".

not all the times you get an acceptable group. Not all the times the guilds have people waiting for you to run a dungeon with. Who barely even ever uses the zone chat? I could wait 15 minutes searching for people in guild or zone chat, or i could finish the vet dungeon in 15 minutes with a group that knows tactics.

[...] If you communicate problems with your group members, [...].

i am not joking when i say that more than half of the times, people don't read the chat even when i spam it.

Waffennacht

It won't help, the normal version is usually so easy that no one notices the mechanics.

Not until vet, where you are forced into mechanics, do people learn them.

NordSwordnBoard

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Give em a break. How do you learn the mechanics otherwise?

Not many I dungeons prepare you for II dungeons. The bosses are completely different in some cases.

This game is 4 years old though, you should be able to specify CP range in group finder.

Well, if a person can't beat the Illambris twins, then that should discourage them from trying the more difficult tier II COH. Those people exist, PUG, and have 720 CP. As tank or healer I've seen plenty of DDs with under 300 CP carry higher levels.

I agree some kind of demarcation line(s) could help, but I'm afraid tiers would just lengthen the time to get a PUG together.

Many have suggested a "training" que for experienced but not necessarily upper level players that can que to teach 3 others willingly for a better reward. This could help separate the ignorant but willing (to learn) from the willfully ignorant in the general que.

Gallagher563

I think they could take account wide Undaunted Achievements into account for the group finder and this would help everyone. I also think an internal ranking or tiered system is needed for the vet dungeons so that you need to progress through some of the easier vet dungeon tiers before you receive harder dungeon tiers.

Sergykid

Gallagher563 wrote: »

I think they could take account wide Undaunted Achievements into account for the group finder and this would help everyone. I also think an internal ranking or tiered system is needed for the vet dungeons so that you need to progress through some of the easier vet dungeon tiers before you receive harder dungeon tiers.

they added the 300 CP requirement but only for DLC vets. Seems reasonable enough, but for non-DLC ones, they could at least added this "do the normal one first" condition. While it is a big difference, it teaches you about the course of the dungeon and to do the quest.

idk

Sergykid wrote: »

some people hop into veteran dungeons without even knowing tactics, let not say about being prepared regarding skill/gear, thus ruining the experience of the other 3 players.

just as some dungeons become available at a certain level, so the veteran version of a dungeon becomes available after beating the normal version.

Beating them on normal is not a big deal. It really does little to teach mechanics.

If one wants more control over their group composition we can form our own group.

Ardan147

The problem is that you can often ignore mechanics on normal that you can't on veteran. One example from my own recent experience is in Aetherian Archive, with the boss that does this full AoE where the only safe place to stand is a yellow circle and that does massive damage to everyone outside the circle. On normal, you can survive that blast and heal/shield through it; on vet it will always one-shot you. It isn't just that the monsters in vet dungeons are stronger and tougher than their counterparts on normal, but they are also a lot less forgiving of mistakes.

ezio45

wont help, you can easily run thru even the newest dungeon on normal knowing 0 mechanics without anyware close to the dps necessary or survivability

even if they completed a vet they could be carried thru it with one group that the second group cant