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Asylum, Maelstrom, & Master DW...

Ch4mpTW
Ch4mpTW
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Do they have a place in this game?

The VMA DW Weapons were over-nerfed. Plus, the rotation can’t be kept up due to the sustain changes that were introduced with Morrowind. Thanks for that. Lol. The Master DW Weapons only have a place in stamina builds in PvP (usually only Master Axes to be specific due to cheesy StamBlade bleed builds). And Asylum DW Weapons are good for what again...? Nothing that I think of. Even their perfect variants.

So what exactly is the plan for these weapons when entering into the next chapter? I’m assuming that the new trial will introduce new weapons, that will probably outclass these weapons even further. Thus making older content even less appealing than what they already are. Because let’s be real here. Most people who run VMA, are running it for a destruction staff (inferno or lightning to be specific lol). Most of the people run VDSA are looking for either a restoration staff or pair of axes. And lastly, people farm VAS for pretty much a chance at acquiring a 2H or Inferno (possibly lightning) staff. Although, supposedly an Asylum Restoration Staff has a few perks. I have no healers, but from the healers I do speak with — again a Master Staff is dramatically better.
Edited by Ch4mpTW on April 13, 2018 7:52AM
On the count of 3, everybody say, “Salami!” 1, 2, 3...
  • WillhelmBlack
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    Maybe they'll address them during the PTS. It was the players that highlighted the problem. I don't even think ZOS thought they were nerfing them by making 2H weapons count as 2 slots.

    High Council of The Black.(EU/DC PvE & PvP Guild).
  • Turelus
    Turelus
    Community Ambassador
    For an inactive person you have a lot of interest in future developments. :trollface:
    Just come back Ch4mp, ignore the bad and love the good. We miss the happy you.

    I think the ability altering weapons line needs to have a pass at some point as a whole. Even before Summerset there are many of them which just don't offer anything worth using, as well as some being useful in PvP only, but being PvE items.

    Hopefully when PTS notes go live (I'm predicting Monday as they're hinting at giving us a date on ESO Live tonight) we'll see what the combat team has planned for them (if anything).
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    :: Unofficial Forums FAQ :: MissBizz ESO Guides :: AlcastHQ Guides :: Tamriel Foundry Forums :: UESP ESO Page :: ESO Sets :: Woeler Tank Guides :: ESO Community Discord ::
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • Gprime31
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    More qqing about obsolete weapons, theory craft bro.
  • fossoyer
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    For me, VMA = bow and lightning staff.
    DW are enought powerfull with standard set you can loot in pledges.
    Edited by fossoyer on April 13, 2018 8:05AM
  • Ch4mpTW
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    Gprime31 wrote: »
    More qqing about obsolete weapons, theory craft bro.

    They don’t have to be obsolete, however. That’s the thing. I’m all for games evolving, and thus gear and playstyles advancing alongside said evolutions. However, it’s not the case in regards to this particular situation. This situation is a case of ZOS having the appearance of not knowing what direction they want the game to go. And if the developers of the game are clueless in regards to direction, how in the world will the players know? Even better question, how would you even remotely prepare yourself for upcoming changes? Lol.
    On the count of 3, everybody say, “Salami!” 1, 2, 3...
  • Turelus
    Turelus
    Community Ambassador
    Ch4mpTW wrote: »
    Gprime31 wrote: »
    More qqing about obsolete weapons, theory craft bro.

    They don’t have to be obsolete, however. That’s the thing. I’m all for games evolving, and thus gear and playstyles advancing alongside said evolutions. However, it’s not the case in regards to this particular situation. This situation is a case of ZOS having the appearance of not knowing what direction they want the game to go. And if the developers of the game are clueless in regards to direction, how in the world will the players know? Even better question, how would you even remotely prepare yourself for upcoming changes? Lol.
    I think there needs to be some balance though. I think making 2H count as two pc is pointless if ability altering weapons remain BiS for every situation or top build.

    I'd like to see ZOS try and make a system were we can reach the same results (roughly) via differing means. So players can find builds which work best for them and get roughly the same numbers as other builds which work for other players.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    :: Unofficial Forums FAQ :: MissBizz ESO Guides :: AlcastHQ Guides :: Tamriel Foundry Forums :: UESP ESO Page :: ESO Sets :: Woeler Tank Guides :: ESO Community Discord ::
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • Gprime31
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    As a solo player I look foreword to the change up in meta, this will bring great changes to the game, sure some setups will require balance changes, but I welcome change after 4 years of the same thing.
  • Ch4mpTW
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    fossoyer wrote: »
    For me, VMA = bow and lightning staff.
    DW are enought powerfull with standard set you can loot in pledges.

    Yes, I forgot to mention bows in my original post in regards to VMA. But still, that’s pretty bad. Actually? No. That’s extremely bad. Let me make a list real fast to show you why.

    Sought After Weapons for Every Trial
    VDSA:
    - Restoration Staff
    - Axes (1-handed)
    - Destruction Staff (very rarely sought after unless a niche PvP setup).

    VMA:
    - Bow
    - Inferno Staff
    - Lightning Staf

    VAS:
    - Inferno Staff
    - Lightning Staff (again, this is a niche thing)
    - 2-hander (Strictly for PvP in 99.9% of cases)
    - Restoration Staff (I still see healers prefer the Master variant in 90% of cases).

    IF! If I were a dev, and I saw that list above? I’d be extremely troubled by it. Extremely trouble. Why? Because it shows little to no variation. As someone else said. It shows things being rendered as obsolete. And if something in a game is viewed as “obsolete” and or easily replaced? Then there is less of an incentive to be bothered in indulging in said content. And if there is no incentive of doing the content, then the content becomes stale and you (as a dev) get no play and or cash flow off of that piece of content.

    And I don’t know if that’s the plan, and or the devs just don’t care? But, if I were apart of ZOS? I’d want players to have a reason to stay doing the content that I produce. And regularly. And not even from a grind perspective, but rather from an enjoyment angle. VMA isn’t fun. It’s actually quite the opposite. VDSA? Can be fun, but becomes a nuisance toward the later rounds as it seems to drag on unnecessarily. VAS? Although somewhat quick, why tf are skins tied to the hard mode only? Why are perfect variants acquire from doing the hard mode only? That’s stupidity. And even more so, why tf does the dragon boss guy have damn near 100M health? You see what I mean?
    On the count of 3, everybody say, “Salami!” 1, 2, 3...
  • Ch4mpTW
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    Turelus wrote: »
    Ch4mpTW wrote: »
    Gprime31 wrote: »
    More qqing about obsolete weapons, theory craft bro.

    They don’t have to be obsolete, however. That’s the thing. I’m all for games evolving, and thus gear and playstyles advancing alongside said evolutions. However, it’s not the case in regards to this particular situation. This situation is a case of ZOS having the appearance of not knowing what direction they want the game to go. And if the developers of the game are clueless in regards to direction, how in the world will the players know? Even better question, how would you even remotely prepare yourself for upcoming changes? Lol.
    I think there needs to be some balance though. I think making 2H count as two pc is pointless if ability altering weapons remain BiS for every situation or top build.

    I'd like to see ZOS try and make a system were we can reach the same results (roughly) via differing means. So players can find builds which work best for them and get roughly the same numbers as other builds which work for other players.

    @Turelus So why not revert said changes to the weapons, and allow them to become competitive with each other? For example, stamina weapons from VMA should have their weapon damage returned as a 1pcs. bonus. Destruction Staves? Grant them spell damage for their 1pcs. Master Weapons? Max magicka for Destruction Staves, and max stamina for stamina weapons. And so on. For VAS Weapons? Let the 1pcs. bonus be penetration. Magicka variants get increased spell penetration, and stamina variants get increase physical penetration.

    Do you see where I’m going with it? It would make things seem more appealing AND competitive with the changes that are coming, while not completely leaving the weapons that’s people took their time earning to not be forgotten. Plus, to synergize with my original post? Think about it if the Chaotic Whirlwind set (Asylum DW) granted physical penetration, and had their damage increased. That’d be beautiful, AND it’d give players an incentive to not just view them as straight-up deconstruction materials every time they are looted.

    source.gif
    Edited by Ch4mpTW on April 13, 2018 8:27AM
    On the count of 3, everybody say, “Salami!” 1, 2, 3...
  • Vaoh
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    Maelstrom DW will be good when sustain is eventually buffed. I hear they have been tested much more lately and might become viable again sooner than we think.

    Master DW is only good/decent on specific bleed builds. They’re horrible everywhere else.

    Perfect Asylum/Asylum Weapons are pretty horrible all around.... very unfortunate. The absolute only use for them is solo PvE, because you can extend the duration of Rend to 28sec. For both PvE DPS and PvP, Asylum DW is useless.
  • veloSylraptor
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    Turelus wrote: »
    Ch4mpTW wrote: »
    Gprime31 wrote: »
    More qqing about obsolete weapons, theory craft bro.

    They don’t have to be obsolete, however. That’s the thing. I’m all for games evolving, and thus gear and playstyles advancing alongside said evolutions. However, it’s not the case in regards to this particular situation. This situation is a case of ZOS having the appearance of not knowing what direction they want the game to go. And if the developers of the game are clueless in regards to direction, how in the world will the players know? Even better question, how would you even remotely prepare yourself for upcoming changes? Lol.
    I think there needs to be some balance though. I think making 2H count as two pc is pointless if ability altering weapons remain BiS for every situation or top build.

    I'd like to see ZOS try and make a system were we can reach the same results (roughly) via differing means. So players can find builds which work best for them and get roughly the same numbers as other builds which work for other players.

    ^^yup, encouraging build diversity in terms of viable playstyle requires that we have a lot of options that are roughly equally viable.

    How much "roughly equally viable"? Well, to the point most players won't mind accepting another player who makes the less than optimal (or in this case, has access to, or want to use, the BiS gear). If the trial weapons BiS status is kept to a minimum advantage, is that not enough reward for completing that content without causing systemic consequences of end game groups and pvp requiring people to use that gear? Thus effectively coercing players who want to use other options into conforming to a playstyle they may not enjoy.

    And returning the the vMA weapon damage would be an undue advantage over other options considering those stat values are effectively another set piece bonus other items don't get. Its perfectly fine for those special weapons to have special effects that help boost dps, yet it cannot be to the point where it effectively becomes a requirement that is enforced by the community in general.
  • Ch4mpTW
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    Turelus wrote: »
    Ch4mpTW wrote: »
    Gprime31 wrote: »
    More qqing about obsolete weapons, theory craft bro.

    They don’t have to be obsolete, however. That’s the thing. I’m all for games evolving, and thus gear and playstyles advancing alongside said evolutions. However, it’s not the case in regards to this particular situation. This situation is a case of ZOS having the appearance of not knowing what direction they want the game to go. And if the developers of the game are clueless in regards to direction, how in the world will the players know? Even better question, how would you even remotely prepare yourself for upcoming changes? Lol.
    I think there needs to be some balance though. I think making 2H count as two pc is pointless if ability altering weapons remain BiS for every situation or top build.

    I'd like to see ZOS try and make a system were we can reach the same results (roughly) via differing means. So players can find builds which work best for them and get roughly the same numbers as other builds which work for other players.

    ^^yup, encouraging build diversity in terms of viable playstyle requires that we have a lot of options that are roughly equally viable.

    How much "roughly equally viable"? Well, to the point most players won't mind accepting another player who makes the less than optimal (or in this case, has access to, or want to use, the BiS gear). If the trial weapons BiS status is kept to a minimum advantage, is that not enough reward for completing that content without causing systemic consequences of end game groups and pvp requiring people to use that gear? Thus effectively coercing players who want to use other options into conforming to a playstyle they may not enjoy.

    And returning the the vMA weapon damage would be an undue advantage over other options considering those stat values are effectively another set piece bonus other items don't get. Its perfectly fine for those special weapons to have special effects that help boost dps, yet it cannot be to the point where it effectively becomes a requirement that is enforced by the community in general.

    How so? A player would have to pick between obtaining that 4 and 5pcs. bonus, or obtaining higher: Spell damage, spell crit, spell penetration, etc. For example. Let’s say ZOS does implement my proposed suggestion, and you’re a magicka build with access to said special weapons and other weapons that contribute to a 5pcs. set. You’d have to truly sit down and decide whether or not you want to give-up your 5pcs., for a flat increase of spell damage and something like the Asylum’s Inferno Staff 2pcs. bonus (lol w/e it’s called :D). So like let’s take Moondancer. You can either obtain that Moondancer 5pcs. bonus, or obtain that benefit from using Crushing Shock in your rotation and gaining increased spell penetration. See what I mean? It’d be very hard decisions.

    I don’t think you all are aware that when staves and 2-handed Weapons count as a 2pcs., the drive to use Aslyumcand Master Weapons outside of those they I mentioned will plummet. I personally can’t wait to use Infallible Aether again on my MagSorc. Necropotence + Infallible Aether + Zaan/Illambris? With the Maelstrom’s Lightning Staff on my backbar too!? That’s gonna be so damn juicy! It’ll completely push the thought of even caring about Asylum Weapons completely out of my train of thought.
    On the count of 3, everybody say, “Salami!” 1, 2, 3...
  • veloSylraptor
    veloSylraptor
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    Ch4mpTW wrote: »
    Turelus wrote: »
    Ch4mpTW wrote: »
    Gprime31 wrote: »
    More qqing about obsolete weapons, theory craft bro.

    They don’t have to be obsolete, however. That’s the thing. I’m all for games evolving, and thus gear and playstyles advancing alongside said evolutions. However, it’s not the case in regards to this particular situation. This situation is a case of ZOS having the appearance of not knowing what direction they want the game to go. And if the developers of the game are clueless in regards to direction, how in the world will the players know? Even better question, how would you even remotely prepare yourself for upcoming changes? Lol.
    I think there needs to be some balance though. I think making 2H count as two pc is pointless if ability altering weapons remain BiS for every situation or top build.

    I'd like to see ZOS try and make a system were we can reach the same results (roughly) via differing means. So players can find builds which work best for them and get roughly the same numbers as other builds which work for other players.

    ^^yup, encouraging build diversity in terms of viable playstyle requires that we have a lot of options that are roughly equally viable.

    How much "roughly equally viable"? Well, to the point most players won't mind accepting another player who makes the less than optimal (or in this case, has access to, or want to use, the BiS gear). If the trial weapons BiS status is kept to a minimum advantage, is that not enough reward for completing that content without causing systemic consequences of end game groups and pvp requiring people to use that gear? Thus effectively coercing players who want to use other options into conforming to a playstyle they may not enjoy.

    And returning the the vMA weapon damage would be an undue advantage over other options considering those stat values are effectively another set piece bonus other items don't get. Its perfectly fine for those special weapons to have special effects that help boost dps, yet it cannot be to the point where it effectively becomes a requirement that is enforced by the community in general.

    How so? A player would have to pick between obtaining that 4 and 5pcs. bonus, or obtaining higher: Spell damage, spell crit, spell penetration, etc. For example. Let’s say ZOS does implement my proposed suggestion, and you’re a magicka build with access to said special weapons and other weapons that contribute to a 5pcs. set. You’d have to truly sit down and decide whether or not you want to give-up your 5pcs., for a flat increase of spell damage and something like the Asylum’s Inferno Staff 2pcs. bonus (lol w/e it’s called :D). So like let’s take Moondancer. You can either obtain that Moondancer 5pcs. bonus, or obtain that benefit from using Crushing Shock in your rotation and gaining increased spell penetration. See what I mean? It’d be very hard decisions.

    I don’t think you all are aware that when staves and 2-handed Weapons count as a 2pcs., the drive to use Aslyumcand Master Weapons outside of those they I mentioned will plummet. I personally can’t wait to use Infallible Aether again on my MagSorc. Necropotence + Infallible Aether + Zaan/Illambris? With the Maelstrom’s Lightning Staff on my backbar too!? That’s gonna be so damn juicy! It’ll completely push the thought of even caring about Asylum Weapons completely out of my train of thought.

    I am aware, and of course, any gross imbalances can be fixed later when they have the metrics to make that judgement. I'm not arguing that absolutely no changes should be made, if items are underperforming to the point most people never use it, sure it could use some help.

    I'm only saying that maintaining a rough balance between available options opens up more viable playstyles and allows players who enjoy those playstyles to do so without being ridiculed for doing what they enjoy. This update will allow non-special 2h weapons to be more of a viable playstyle in that they are able to use 2h weapons without being deprived of a weapon slot that dw users get.
  • Tasear
    Tasear
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    Ch4mpTW wrote: »
    fossoyer wrote: »
    For me, VMA = bow and lightning staff.
    DW are enought powerfull with standard set you can loot in pledges.

    Yes, I forgot to mention bows in my original post in regards to VMA. But still, that’s pretty bad. Actually? No. That’s extremely bad. Let me make a list real fast to show you why.

    Sought After Weapons for Every Trial
    VDSA:
    - Restoration Staff
    - Axes (1-handed)
    - Destruction Staff (very rarely sought after unless a niche PvP setup).

    VMA:
    - Bow
    - Inferno Staff
    - Lightning Staf

    VAS:
    - Inferno Staff
    - Lightning Staff (again, this is a niche thing)
    - 2-hander (Strictly for PvP in 99.9% of cases)
    - Restoration Staff (I still see healers prefer the Master variant in 90% of cases).

    IF! If I were a dev, and I saw that list above? I’d be extremely troubled by it. Extremely trouble. Why? Because it shows little to no variation. As someone else said. It shows things being rendered as obsolete. And if something in a game is viewed as “obsolete” and or easily replaced? Then there is less of an incentive to be bothered in indulging in said content. And if there is no incentive of doing the content, then the content becomes stale and you (as a dev) get no play and or cash flow off of that piece of content.

    And I don’t know if that’s the plan, and or the devs just don’t care? But, if I were apart of ZOS? I’d want players to have a reason to stay doing the content that I produce. And regularly. And not even from a grind perspective, but rather from an enjoyment angle. VMA isn’t fun. It’s actually quite the opposite. VDSA? Can be fun, but becomes a nuisance toward the later rounds as it seems to drag on unnecessarily. VAS? Although somewhat quick, why tf are skins tied to the hard mode only? Why are perfect variants acquire from doing the hard mode only? That’s stupidity. And even more so, why tf does the dragon boss guy have damn near 100M health? You see what I mean?

    VDSA bow is like 500 dps from malestorm.
    Famous Healer, Loving Guild Master, Support Theory Crater
    Former Class Representative, & Former Community Ambassador
    Grand Prize Winner to Deardic Dress up Contest
    ESO Community Discord: https://discord.gg/9UafDmq

    Affiliations: BBC Gaming Guild, Akvari Exchange, Imperial Trade Union, Moonlight Travelers, Raiding Strategy Academy
    Trial History: Jedi Council Raid Leader, Akvari Exchange Core Healer, Raiding Strategy Academy Vice Guild Master, Magic Society Core Healer, Rolling Cliff Hangers Core Healer, Kongpanions Core Healer, Moonlight Core Healer
  • Tasear
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    But yes many sets need a look at. Also be careful about how changes effect the future.

    My wish list

    ~ this why everyone uses spell power cure. Every other option in play style is bad, shields and evasion, utimate etc.

    Gossmber
    Prayer shawl
    Triminic
    Twlight Renedy
    Lamina song
    Night flame
    Combat physician
    Storm knight
    Guild Systems ;)
    Edited by Tasear on April 13, 2018 12:28PM
    Famous Healer, Loving Guild Master, Support Theory Crater
    Former Class Representative, & Former Community Ambassador
    Grand Prize Winner to Deardic Dress up Contest
    ESO Community Discord: https://discord.gg/9UafDmq

    Affiliations: BBC Gaming Guild, Akvari Exchange, Imperial Trade Union, Moonlight Travelers, Raiding Strategy Academy
    Trial History: Jedi Council Raid Leader, Akvari Exchange Core Healer, Raiding Strategy Academy Vice Guild Master, Magic Society Core Healer, Rolling Cliff Hangers Core Healer, Kongpanions Core Healer, Moonlight Core Healer
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