About late end-game incentives.

Nyladreas

This is more of a question topic than a suggestion...

Why hasn't ZOS put in some sort of end-game advancement mechanic in the game?

What I mean is... Why don't we have some way of improving our gear rather than just getting more set drops by completing veteran trials. Something that will make us feel more powerful and accomplished in the end. Something that will keep the content alive and active and motivating. Like... Why isn't there any kind of a drop or item or NPC (basically anything), that rewards successful highly skilled raiders or PvP participants.

For example: If you complete vMoL, you get a drop, let's say an orb, that puts special extra stats (anything from attributes, recovery, attack speed to weapon damage) or even just improves the quality of your gear (traits, enchants, armor) past legendary status and is ONLY ACTIVE in PvE content to avoid PvP imbalances? This is in fact possible, just look at bonuses of Vicious Ophidian set as an example:

"(3 items) Gain Minor Slayer at all times, increasing your damage done to Dungeon and Trial Monsters by 5%."

Since we have all kinds of different sets and builds and the motto is pretty much "Play how you want", getting improvements for your character and build i this way would be perfect and motivate people to actually push content if they wish to do so and REWARD THEM without limiting or affecting PvP in any way whatsoever.

Actually the same thing could be done with PvP, let's say you would get to spend your AP on not just special PvP gear, but also some sort of special item that would function similarly as what I mentioned above, but in PvP. Let's say we'd have an item called "Cheesy Orb of Victory" costing AP and a new currency item from capturing Keeps and Resources.

This orb adds extra Weapon Damage to your weapon (let's say a 100) and this bonus only activates in Cyrodiil/Battlegrounds. <- This is just an example. It could be something totally different and for armor as well. Please keep this in mind.

Why hasn't there ever been anything like this?

This avoids:

1) PvP and PvE imbalances
2) Adjustments to CP, and changes to item level.
3) High skill requirement in PVP - which produces the most "hate" on the forums.

Honestly, if you spend a ton of time in PvP you should be rewarded for it. If you spend a ton of time in PvE and can do the hardest end-game content, you should be rewarded for it.

Every Trial could then provide us with different stats, depending on what kind of trial it is, so everyone doesn't end up doing the easiest trial over and over and over and getting strong no matter what would suit their class

All this of course would come with a cap, so players don't end up being TOO POWERFUL.

I avoided special rewards for TOP/GOOD PVP players on purpose, because this game is simply not being able to handle imbalances caused by it, therefore you'd only get it by spending time in Cyro/BGs. In PvE it doesn't stop you from doing anything, it only ends up being easier and mobs sure don't complain that Player A hits them for more than player B.


Thanks for reading my wall of text. Like i mentioned at the start, this is more of a question/looking for opinions topic, rather than actual suggestion.

EDIT: Excuse any typos, this is sent from a phone.

EDIT2: Once again, since people seem to be misunderstanding me here... There would be NO SKILL GAP BETWEEN PVP PLAYERS - ONLY TIME SPENT. I'm talking couple weeks here, not years and months. It would benefit players from completing objectives rather than just brawling. And It would be easily obtainable. The goal of the whole PvP part mentioned here would be to distinguish PvE from PvP even more and allow players to augment their gear and therefore THEIR PLAYSTYLE, even more.

Turelus

Because we already have multiple progression systems in the game.

Base level.
CP level.
Skill level
Gear level.
Gear quality.

Adding a new one or expanding on one already in the (gear) just creates more power creep and balance nightmares.

You idea isn't bad in isolation of other increases, but with CP (which cap increases most patches) we're just layering more and more systems on top of each other rather than focusing one to increase in a steady and reliable way.

I'm a huge fan of gear augmentation though as my first MMO was Ragnarok Online.

Checkmath

the devs dont like the power creep we earlier had with cp's, where endgame players had a lot of advantage over newer players.
for this reason a cp cap was implemented and also cp rewards the first pints spent into a tree and you will see diminishing returns when you put more into the same tree.
what you suggest again would make the difference between veterans and less experienced players again bigger, which is undesired, otherwise progress guilds again would close their doors for the newer players, since they will not have the experience nor the said advantage to fit into their groups.
same goes for PvP, you would give the experienced players again an advantage over others, which will result in less enjoyment for the newer players, since veterans would keep going to smash their faces like its nothing. this would make cyrodiil less populated and keeps new pvper away from it, while we again would see scenarios of one player face tanking a zerg in open field and even kills them.

Nyladreas

Turelus wrote: »

Because we already have three progression systems in the game.

Base level.
CP level.
Skill level
Gear level.
Gear quality.

Adding a new one or expanding on one already in the (gear) just creates more power creep and balance nightmares.

You idea isn't bad in isolation of other increases, but with CP (which cap increases most patches) we're just layering more and more systems on top of each other rather than focusing one to increase in a steady and reliable way.

I'm a huge fan of gear augmentation though as my first MMO was Ragnarok Online.

This can be countered by bringing in more and more difficult content or even making more difficult modes though. There could be something past veteran mode. Compareable to how WoW handles Normal -> Heroic -> Mythic.

It's only about how much we can explore the idea and how much we can deal with the super "power creep" in the end. Since my idea is mainly focused on PvE, there is nothing to really limit this. Sure, PvP would still get something. But that's fine. We already have non-CP campaigns and in CP campaigns people are already one-shotting anyone who isn't above 400 CP anyway. It would make the game longer sure, but that's just what people have to deal with it.

In old days of WoW, having no PVP gear would get you brutally murdered the second u met someone who had it. Noone cared. It's about adaption, not benevolence.

Thing is, this is not only good for becoming powerful, but also keeping the game healthy. There have been a lot of people who maxed out their characters and if PVP isn't their cup of coffee, after 200 trials don't really have that much motivation of going further other than making a new character/class or messing with other builds that aren't even really viable in PvE anyway.

ghwaite

I shudder to think of a Legendary +10 vMA Inferno Staff

This weapon progression needs to stay out of ESO.

ks888

We already had the Veteran system and it was a nightmare to have to finish Silver and Gold or grind out those last couple of Vet ranks. The current system is a real time saver for those of us that have been here forever and just want to have an alt toon.

Checkmath

those augmenting rewards being locked behind the hardest content wouldnt help either, since only top guilds would have access to it, where as the other 99% will not have any chance to get it. and they wont, since the top guild would expect you already having this advantage to join them.

Nyladreas

Is everyone completely mis und

ks888 wrote: »

We already had the Veteran system and it was a nightmare to have to finish Silver and Gold or grind out those last couple of Vet ranks. The current system is a real time saver for those of us that have been here forever and just want to have an alt toon.

Why is everyone completely misunderstanding me here? What I'm suggesting is absolutely nothing like Veteran system. In any way. My suggestion perfectly depends on each individual's decision, just like it does in other MMOs where people just don't grind for end-game if they don't want to.

I have played many MMOs over the years and NEVER has it been impossible ( and their communities are way more toxic ) to get into hardcore end-game if you just had the motivation and dedication. It's a fairy tale, and illusion to think that guilds will only bring in players who already have mastered the game.

You can still make your own guild, OR you can join a guild that runs content for actual fun rather than e-peen meter, and gears up/trains new players.

I'm a member of such guild myself, where no-one cares how good you are and everyone will help you. Don't generalise this aspect please.

Also, what is this fear everyone has of creating some insane gap between veterans and new players? I clearly stated that in PVP especially all you need to do is spend time in PVP to get this, without grinding endlessly like the CP system.

Why is this such a problem for this community? I just don't understand, somebody please explain with relevant information cause i can't get my head around it.

Checkmath

spending time in PvP should give you an advantage? this would be a very drastic change to PvP, since player skill has not much to do with time spent in cyrodiil. there are so many players with high ranks, but they have no idea how to really do PvP. i dont think those guys, who spend hours a day should get an advantage over players with less time spent in PvP. there is no need to make the best in PvE even better and lock it behind content, where not even 1% of the player base get.

Nyladreas

Checkmath wrote: »

spending time in PvP should give you an advantage? this would be a very drastic change to PvP, since player skill has not much to do with time spent in cyrodiil. there are so many players with high ranks, but they have no idea how to really do PvP. i dont think those guys, who spend hours a day should get an advantage over players with less time spent in PvP. there is no need to make the best in PvE even better and lock it behind content, where not even 1% of the player base get.

The PvP part was more about spending time in and focusing on objectives, thats why i mentioned that capturing keeps and resources would give you new currecy you'd buy your gear upgrades with.

There would be caps, not neverending improvements that go over the top like 500 more damage over newbies.

It would stop at say 100. People are overreacting to this as if it was some sort of phobia

Also, spending time =/= spending years or months. But rather couple weeks. Devs already know this, and I'm taking that into the account, therefore not going into maximum detail.

MongooseOne

It most likely has a lot to do with how you mentioned ZOS could handle the power creep, by adding more difficult content.

The problem is ZOS can’t keep up with the hardcore gamers. They burn through content faster than and company can produce it and then complain when they don’t have enough difficult content.

Why bother making that more of a problem than it already is?

Nyladreas

MongooseOne wrote: »

It most likely has a lot to do with how you mentioned ZOS could handle the power creep, by adding more difficult content.

The problem is ZOS can’t keep up with the hardcore gamers. They burn through content faster than and company can produce it and then complain when they don’t have enough difficult content.

Why bother making that more of a problem than it already is?

Wait, really? Legit serious?

Cause I mean... When I look at the forums I mostly see people complaining about the game being too hard...

Like 10:1 ratio. Sans overland content, that's a joke to even complain about tbh.

That's why I even started with this topic.

Checkmath

as said there is this 1% of players running through hardest content like it is nothing. new trails vet versions are beaten in the first 2 hours, when the trial finally hits life and the HM normally follow pretty soon.
but that only counts for less than 1% of the whole community, while there are lot of people struggling even with overland content and questing.

witchdoctor

Nyladreas wrote: »

When I look at the forums I mostly see people complaining about ...

One piece of advice: never, ever take these forums seriously. They in no possible way reflect anything close to the reality of the majority of people actually playing this game.

VaranisArano

Nyladreas wrote: »

MongooseOne wrote: »

It most likely has a lot to do with how you mentioned ZOS could handle the power creep, by adding more difficult content.

The problem is ZOS can’t keep up with the hardcore gamers. They burn through content faster than and company can produce it and then complain when they don’t have enough difficult content.

Why bother making that more of a problem than it already is?

Wait, really? Legit serious?

Cause I mean... When I look at the forums I mostly see people complaining about the game being too hard...

Like 10:1 ratio. Sans overland content, that's a joke to even complain about tbh.

That's why I even started with this topic.

Yes. Seriously.

An good endgame DD is throwing out, what, 35k, 40k DPS or higher depending on class? I don't know what the current high numbers I confess.

The average "I haven't done trials yet" DD is doing 10 to 20k DPS. 20 to 25K DPS is generally what I hear will let you complete most content, but it isn't great endgame DPS.

But back before the Morrowind sustain nerfs, I remember at least some magsorcs hitting 50 to 70k DPS. ZOS nerfed sustain hard in Morrowind because high end trials groups were ripping through their hardest content and calling it easy peasy lemon squeezy.

There is a huge gap between good end-game vet trials players and the average player. ZOS has to keep that gap from becoming too huge or they'll start making content that practically no average player can complete. That's why ZOS keeps nerfing certain things in PVE, to keep the power creep under control.

And no, ZOS really can't design extra levels of difficulty. The closest they've come to that is the new trials design where you choose your own difficulty according to how many bosses you fight at a time. Even Craglorn, the hard group zone, was made soloable because no one wanted to do it.

Nyladreas

witchdoctor wrote: »

Nyladreas wrote: »

When I look at the forums I mostly see people complaining about ...

One piece of advice: never, ever take these forums seriously. They in no possible way reflect anything close to the reality of the majority of people actually playing this game.

Silly me for taking the time to come up with anything then. Thanks!

coplannb16_ESO

no

everytime games added those "progression" systems it allienated big parts of the playerbase and eventually lead to its downfall. We p(l)ay to have fun and not to endure grind after grind after grind to grind more.

This is especally true about PvP. PvP should always be about skill, about strategy and tactics. if those "elite" endgame guilds/players take pride in beating scripted encounters (a.k.a. static bits and bytes) by exercising in-sync balett every evening so be it. they already get all kinds of titles, achievements, mementos, higher quality loot and leaderboard rewards.

games nowaday should stop copying from WoW (which copied from EQ) and advance the genre by implementing original and unique ideas. you want tired/seasoned PvE/PvP you can go play WoW, SWTOR or whatever.

I wish taking a scroll in AvA was as epic and difficult as taking relics in DAoC. those were epic battles. and there were no AP rewards for it we did it for realm pride and for our leaders.

and for my book they could remove all gear from PvP and give everyone the same stats. then it would be class vs class and player vs player not set versus set...

badmojo

I would rather not have to grind up more stats on all of my 15 alts. Thanks, but no thanks.

Odnoc

Nyladreas wrote: »

This is more of a question topic than a suggestion...

Why hasn't ZOS put in some sort of end-game advancement mechanic in the game?

What I mean is... Why don't we have some way of improving our gear rather than just getting more set drops by completing veteran trials. Something that will make us feel more powerful and accomplished in the end. Something that will keep the content alive and active and motivating. Like... Why isn't there any kind of a drop or item or NPC (basically anything), that rewards successful highly skilled raiders or PvP participants.

For example: If you complete vMoL, you get a drop, let's say an orb, that puts special extra stats (anything from attributes, recovery, attack speed to weapon damage) or even just improves the quality of your gear (traits, enchants, armor) past legendary status and is ONLY ACTIVE in PvE content to avoid PvP imbalances? This is in fact possible, just look at bonuses of Vicious Ophidian set as an example:

"(3 items) Gain Minor Slayer at all times, increasing your damage done to Dungeon and Trial Monsters by 5%."

Since we have all kinds of different sets and builds and the motto is pretty much "Play how you want", getting improvements for your character and build i this way would be perfect and motivate people to actually push content if they wish to do so and REWARD THEM without limiting or affecting PvP in any way whatsoever.

Actually the same thing could be done with PvP, let's say you would get to spend your AP on not just special PvP gear, but also some sort of special item that would function similarly as what I mentioned above, but in PvP. Let's say we'd have an item called "Cheesy Orb of Victory" costing AP and a new currency item from capturing Keeps and Resources.

This orb adds extra Weapon Damage to your weapon (let's say a 100) and this bonus only activates in Cyrodiil/Battlegrounds. <- This is just an example. It could be something totally different and for armor as well. Please keep this in mind.

Why hasn't there ever been anything like this?

This avoids:

1) PvP and PvE imbalances
2) Adjustments to CP, and changes to item level.
3) High skill requirement in PVP - which produces the most "hate" on the forums.

Honestly, if you spend a ton of time in PvP you should be rewarded for it. If you spend a ton of time in PvE and can do the hardest end-game content, you should be rewarded for it.

Every Trial could then provide us with different stats, depending on what kind of trial it is, so everyone doesn't end up doing the easiest trial over and over and over and getting strong no matter what would suit their class

All this of course would come with a cap, so players don't end up being TOO POWERFUL.

I avoided special rewards for TOP/GOOD PVP players on purpose, because this game is simply not being able to handle imbalances caused by it, therefore you'd only get it by spending time in Cyro/BGs. In PvE it doesn't stop you from doing anything, it only ends up being easier and mobs sure don't complain that Player A hits them for more than player B.


Thanks for reading my wall of text. Like i mentioned at the start, this is more of a question/looking for opinions topic, rather than actual suggestion.

EDIT: Excuse any typos, this is sent from a phone.

EDIT2: Once again, since people seem to be misunderstanding me here... There would be NO SKILL GAP BETWEEN PVP PLAYERS - ONLY TIME SPENT. I'm talking couple weeks here, not years and months. It would benefit players from completing objectives rather than just brawling. And It would be easily obtainable. The goal of the whole PvP part mentioned here would be to distinguish PvE from PvP even more and allow players to augment their gear and therefore THEIR PLAYSTYLE, even more.

Good in theory but would be bad in practice. It will go from LF 35000 dps to LF 100000 dps for the same content, and it will make it a grind for everyone, not just people who would like an extra progression system.

Royaji

It sounds like you want more grind for the sake of... grind? I'm not sure what is the goal of adding such system? It's not like we need any more "power" to complete even the hardest content.

And it will become pretty much another mandatory upgrade everyone has, like golded out weapons and jewelry. Make it small and noone cares, make it big and it's a must have everyone will get. This is how power creep is born.

Turelus

Nyladreas wrote: »

Thing is, this is not only good for becoming powerful, but also keeping the game healthy. There have been a lot of people who maxed out their characters and if PVP isn't their cup of coffee, after 200 trials don't really have that much motivation of going further other than making a new character/class or messing with other builds that aren't even really viable in PvE anyway.

It seems like what you're after is gear progression, the carrot and stick of getting better gear to do harder content to get better gear to do harder content repeat.

ESO is nice in that you don't need to progress through various tiers to play the latest content (something the devs have just this weekend continued to sell the game on). Once you hit level cap (Grrr CP grind) you get some BiS crafted gear and go play any trial in the game.

You're free to enjoy everything, not spend weeks or months farming gear just to play the newest content.

Onefrkncrzypope

Well rewards are always good.. maybe take your idea to noncombat. Cheaper repairs, faster horses not in cyro, a chance at one less gold mat(like 5% just for a little piece of candy), vendering trash get a small amount of more coin, a thankful undaunted giving you a chance at an extra geode, just small little stuff maybe. Nothing huge mind you just like I said a small piece of candy.

Aesthier

"oh, l'rds of tamriel, gods of imm'rtal development, wh'ref're art thy remaining demons of envious pow'r?"

"dids't we not survive thy most wondrous machinations and proven ourselves w'rthy in deeds"
"hast we not defeat'd thy legions"
"dids't we not quell thy lands of hostile oppression, deceitful rul'rs and proff'r'd bountiful peace to thy gl'rious creation?"
"hast, we not risen through strife, turmoil, and war as demigods to finally conqu'r most wondrous and palmy beast of godly stature?"

"we begeth of thee hon'r'd creat'rs wh'ref're art our revil'd and w'rthy adv'rsaries?"

"our armeth'r collects dusteth; our weapons c'rrode and decayeth, our strength wanes all f'r the want of useth 'gainst a des'rving rival. "
"our most wondrous treasures anon appeareth to us as m're trinkets, the songs of our vict'ries has't grown pale, and quite frankly the maidens nay longeth'r beck'n while the harlots raiseth their fares f'r what w'rth is a h'ro with nay foe. "


"fie ign'rant m'rtals! thou art nay demigods!"

"thy boastful claims and pitiful wailing offends me. "

"yet i f'resaw this day and did prepare f'r t from bef're thy lamentable existence"
"you! thee shall beest the next dare the new crop of arrogant, selfish daws lusting to replaceth thee in thy self-exagg'rat'd position!"

"you shalt wend f'rth and resurrect mine own most pow'rful weapon. "
"a shadowy spect'r cloak'd in humour and the v'ry dusteth yond once compris'd its m'rtal coileth. "
"this imm'rtal daemon of such tremendous and influential capacity shalt aid thee in the destructive oppresion of the v'ry people thee once combated f'r!"

"you shalt did lie wasteth to those who is't seeketh to reenact thy accomplishments of grandeur through the raising of this heinous abn'rmality. "
"f'r in thy wasteful ign'rance thee shall bar the gate f'r any to achieveth thy pretentious self-ad'ration. "
"yet if 't be true thee faileth in raising this beast of cataclysmic designeth thee shalt falleth from mine own sight beneath the v'ry dirt thee did tread upon. "

"legions of soundeth mind shall meeteth thee in the field of hurlyburly to thwart thy de'd and stayeth thy handeth from raising the beast. "

"so i accepteth thy plea and sendeth thee f'rth to a new realm appropriate f'r thy lofty ego. "
"yet i warneth yond if 't be true thee faileth in raising thy new accomplice, thy owneth deeds shall groweth stale in thy that from which we speak, thy self-inflat'd w'rth shall smold'r in thy heart, and this w'rld shall off'r nay sanctuary f'r thy desires. "


"wh're, oh gracious creat'r might this companion beest hath found and by what nameth is that gent hath called yond we might und'rtake this gl'rious task and joineth in one lasteth legendary conflict to sate our lust f'r grand adventure?"



"his namesake is dead h'rse, and that gent can beest hath found in the realm of f'rums. "

ccfeeling

It will not be ESO.

Wifeaggro13

Turelus wrote: »

Because we already have multiple progression systems in the game.

Base level.
CP level.
Skill level
Gear level.
Gear quality.

Adding a new one or expanding on one already in the (gear) just creates more power creep and balance nightmares.

You idea isn't bad in isolation of other increases, but with CP (which cap increases most patches) we're just layering more and more systems on top of each other rather than focusing one to increase in a steady and reliable way.

I'm a huge fan of gear augmentation though as my first MMO was Ragnarok Online.

he is not asking that he is asking why the progression in the end game is linear and not vertical. its flat, no increase just more of the same just a different name. the answer is Matt wanted a flat online RPG design , when paul and konk left the game began its redesign. I for one don't agree with this playstyle or design. but many casuals like it and it personally think its one of the major reasons ESO has a very high churn rate. all those types of advancements above are flat as they are not really ever increased aside from CP which honestly is a broken half finished alternate advancement system.

thomas1970b16_ESO

Actually, one of the things I like about ESO, and a big reason of why I enjoy it, is because ESO does not have a system like this.

Let's keep the endless gear hunting of World of Warcraft out of this game.