Buff 1H weapon traits by 5%

IAVITNI

Based on what we've seen of Summerset, besides skill lines, there is no reason to go DW over 2H.

The change to 2H is an interesting one, and one that does open build diversity. However, it is also killing off DW builds that didn't use skills from skill lines. Ex. DW mag sorc (which was already dying) DW Magplar/DK, some DW stamblades etc.

I propose changing the weapon trait values of 1H weapons and shields to 55% of 2H instead of 50%. This would come out to a 10% Trait boost in total. It's not much but it is a reason to go DW over 2H for a considerable amount of builds.

Increase diversity. Don't kill some and add a little more.

*Edit- this suggestion originally came from a PvP perspective. I admit I failed to consider the effects on PvE. That said, majority of PvP builds are 2h to begin with. The current changes to 2h will pretty much kill DW in PvP

Morgul667

First feedback from beta tester was that dual wield bow was still the key gear to achieve high DPS

Difference was just not that high anymore

I dont see why DW DPS should be increased yet

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Two-hander is still 3-5k dps behind dual wield, according to @Gilliamtherogue, so no, no buffs to dual wield, especially with enchants, as they get two of them to two-handers one anyways.

Lynx7386

This makes no sense. 1h weapons have half the trait strength and enchant strength of 2h weapons. You can equip two of them, which makes them equal.

I find it pretty aggravating that for the past 4+ years dual wield has been vastly superior to 2h options due to the set bonus disparity, and now that things are actually being made equal all the dual wielders are crying.

kypranb14_ESO

Dual wield gets the full benefit from both enchants, only the trait is halved.

Yakidafi

Lynx7386 wrote: »

and now that things are actually being made equal all the dual wielders are crying.

Checkmath

the only thing regarding this topic did i mentioned in another thread.
what really are some pain points in the two handed and one handed weapon stuff is, that they dont have all the same base spell/weapon damage. bows and staves are behind 2h and dual wield.
second point is, that there are traits, which dont the doubled effect for two handed weapons or the other way round. one trait is infused, which always gives you 50% cool down reduction in legendary, that also affects the non infused weapon in dual wield. ok this may stay 50%, but shouldnt affect the non infused weapon at all. but the 30% increase in effectiveness for the glyph should be the doubled amount for 2 handed weapons (or half the amount in one hand weapons).
then there is the nirn trait, which is a percentage number equal to 200 damage on one hand weapons with shields, bows and staves. but thx to the higher base damage on 2h this number is bigger for them. additionally you pretty much get the same amount of you only make your main hand nirn in a dual wield setup, while your offhand can have an additional trait.

those problems are easy to solve: same base damage for two handed weapons and a lower one for 1 handed weapons, tough dual wield should be on par with 2h.
align infused trait with others, so the trait has a bigger effect on 2 handed weapons.
nirn should be a fix value (also the number should be doubled on 2 handed weapons).
or two handed weapons should incorporate two traits, which makes them equal to dual wield or one hand and shield, where you already have two different traits. therefore you could stack two times the same trait in a 2h or staff, but you also could go two different traits. for this suggestion, naturally the doubled amount of trait effects for two handed weapons must go away.

Vapirko

Checkmath wrote: »

the only thing regarding this topic did i mentioned in another thread.
what really are some pain points in the two handed and one handed weapon stuff is, that they dont have all the same base spell/weapon damage. bows and staves are behind 2h and dual wield.
second point is, that there are traits, which dont the doubled effect for two handed weapons or the other way round. one trait is infused, which always gives you 50% cool down reduction in legendary, that also affects the non infused weapon in dual wield. ok this may stay 50%, but shouldnt affect the non infused weapon at all. but the 30% increase in effectiveness for the glyph should be the doubled amount for 2 handed weapons (or half the amount in one hand weapons).
then there is the nirn trait, which is a percentage number equal to 200 damage on one hand weapons with shields, bows and staves. but thx to the higher base damage on 2h this number is bigger for them. additionally you pretty much get the same amount of you only make your main hand nirn in a dual wield setup, while your offhand can have an additional trait.

those problems are easy to solve: same base damage for two handed weapons and a lower one for 1 handed weapons, tough dual wield should be on par with 2h.
align infused trait with others, so the trait has a bigger effect on 2 handed weapons.
nirn should be a fix value (also the number should be doubled on 2 handed weapons).
or two handed weapons should incorporate two traits, which makes them equal to dual wield or one hand and shield, where you already have two different traits. therefore you could stack two times the same trait in a 2h or staff, but you also could go two different traits. for this suggestion, naturally the doubled amount of trait effects for two handed weapons must go away.

No, this would be insnanely op. There has to be some reason to use dw beyond the skills.

Checkmath

what is insane about my suggestion?
actually there shouldnt be any limitations between base damage of the weapons, so exactly the skills define, which weapons is taken and not the base values.

SodanTok

You mean like Infused trait that increases value of enchantment for same amount on 1H as on 2H and it even reduces cooldown of the second enchant on DW.

Or Nirnhoned trait that increases weapon damage of 1H by same value as staves or bows?

Because those are current meta traits...

Checkmath

thats why i wanted some changes there. my suggestion about infused is rather a nerf, since i suggested halfing the enchantement effect on one hand weapons, so 30% on a 2h weapons, but only 15% on a 1h. to get 30% with duel wield, you have to make both weapons infused. thats the idea behind my suggestion.
the same goes for nirnhoned. what i suggested is a buff to nirnhoned bows and staves, since they would get a higher additional value than 1h weapons. especially dual wield would be "nerfed", since you wont get the alomst whole increase of the mainhand in nirn. you would have to make both nirnhoned to get that values, and therefore you would sacrifice the trait n your offhand.
probably i didnt make it 100% clear or you cant read.

SodanTok

Checkmath wrote: »

thats why i wanted some changes there. my suggestion about infused is rather a nerf, since i suggested halfing the enchantement effect on one hand weapons, so 30% on a 2h weapons, but only 15% on a 1h. to get 30% with duel wield, you have to make both weapons infused. thats the idea behind my suggestion.
the same goes for nirnhoned. what i suggested is a buff to nirnhoned bows and staves, since they would get a higher additional value than 1h weapons. especially dual wield would be "nerfed", since you wont get the alomst whole increase of the mainhand in nirn. you would have to make both nirnhoned to get that values, and therefore you would sacrifice the trait n your offhand.
probably i didnt make it 100% clear or you cant read.

I was reacting to OP not you ^^ Your suggestion has some good bases, but could impact DW too much. My (strong) opinion is not buff DW in anyway because it will still be best. I dont have any strong opinion about nerfing or making 2h even closer to DW.

Checkmath

Ah srysry^^
I am surely not for an increase of 5% for one habd traits.
My suggestion wasnt adding to this idea, but an overall point about some weaknesses between weapon types and traits.

ascan7

IAVITNI wrote: »

Based on what we've seen of Summerset, besides skill lines, there is no reason to go DW over 2H.

Sorry but how do you know? How can you say a thing like this without any test?

Checkmath

Dual wield provides the better dot, the better spammabla and more mitigation. And thats only about the skills...

Beardimus

I agree with the buff. Stam and Magika DW alike, however i think buffing the passives would be a better way.

Something needs to happen as Cyro is already rife with 2H or Wizards with wands and its only going to get harder not to run meta

Khivas_Carrick

Lynx7386 wrote: »

This makes no sense. 1h weapons have half the trait strength and enchant strength of 2h weapons. You can equip two of them, which makes them equal.

I find it pretty aggravating that for the past 4+ years dual wield has been vastly superior to 2h options due to the set bonus disparity, and now that things are actually being made equal all the dual wielders are crying.

My friend, welcome to the world of MMORPGs, and hell, reality as well.

The OP will always cry when things get balanced because they've never had to deal with any actual competition except from their own.

Now 2H will be a hell of a lot more viable in PvE, and even then, DWing will still be king, it just won't be by such a large margin anymore.

Kanar

Beardimus wrote: »

I agree with the buff. Stam and Magika DW alike, however i think buffing the passives would be a better way.

Something needs to happen as Cyro is already rife with 2H or Wizards with wands and its only going to get harder not to run meta

Instead of asking for DW changes that would further increase the disparity between it and 2h, why not ask for stamina morphs of all class skills? Then you could have your stamina wizard who uses DW and casts class spells.

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

show previous quotes

Lynx7386 wrote: »

This makes no sense. 1h weapons have half the trait strength and enchant strength of 2h weapons. You can equip two of them, which makes them equal.

I find it pretty aggravating that for the past 4+ years dual wield has been vastly superior to 2h options due to the set bonus disparity, and now that things are actually being made equal all the dual wielders are crying.

My friend, welcome to the world of MMORPGs, and hell, reality as well.

The OP will always cry when things get balanced because they've never had to deal with any actual competition except from their own.

Now 2H will be a hell of a lot more viable in PvE, and even then, DWing will still be king, it just won't be by such a large margin anymore.

Once public PTS is available, people will see that this change alone makes barely any difference in the viability of 2h. All it might do is bring visibility to the current viability of 2h, which everyone underestimates. The real fixes for 2h are more along the lines of what @Checkmath proposed.

Note: I'm only talking about stamina weapons, not staves.

BrokenGameMechanics

The issue here is that everyone saying something valid in this context/situation. In PVP DW is pretty rare as raw DPS over a period of time is meaningless in comparison to CCs and Burst. Clearly not the same as skeleton pounding.

Consider a DW vs 2H head to head in PVP. DW can spam Rapid Strikes and DOT Slashes. Since Rapid Strikes is a channel, the DW is effectively self-rooted. One Dizzy Swing later the DW is near one shot'd in damage, stunned, knocked back and I'm not sure these days, after stun recovery will also endure an off-balance debuff. (The DW lines does offer a single CC across the entire line, forget multiple effects in a single skill.) After that, at most a Reverse Slice / Executioner and ding ding ding, its over. (Another issue, DW has no execute.) DW is now, 2 hits, dead, done and dusted.

DW in PVP only made sense in the context of giving up effective melee combat for the offset of gaining the 5-5-2 build option. With that advantage now gone, very hard pressed to find a reason (ok, lets be blunt, there are none) for DW in PVP. Currently, it is already pretty rare to see DW in PVP, with a much larger ratio of 2H over DW. Expect DW to vanish like the Dodo for PVP when the changes hit.

If you play PVP, how many times have you looked at the Death Log and seen some serious damage from Flurry? Or even seen Flurry for that matter. Now how many times have you bit the dust from Dizzy Swing and/or Reverse Slice? One is a never happens and one is a yea, all the time. This is not serendipity.

So currently in a straight-up 1v1 DW vs 2H there is a big, big gap in PVP. Now consider that 2H just received for free!! an additional 400 Weapon Damage across the entire 2H line because they now get the Set Bonus from Automaton. Or now will get a big windfall in Stam + Stam recovery because their Dubious now procs Bone Pirate. These are not minor tooltip swings.

The ubiquitous nature of this change plus there are already so many 2H and Bow builds in PVP that will now get that Bone Pirate or Automaton or XXX buff from some second meta Set that wasn't there before, will clearly have the largest single impact to PVP balance ever. One can assume that historically Sets and Tooltips were balanced (or attempted to be) on the assumption of 5-5-2 or not 5-5-2. Now all that is out the window and I don't think there no compensating Tooltip and Set adjustments happening with this change. Pro or Con, which depends totally on your current build, it does mean that everyone's current build is now N/A and will radically change. For some it will be a Set adjustment, for others entire "styles of play" are gone and builds are dead. There will also be another big drop in PVP build diversity and skills.

Checkmath

excuse me, but a decent stamina toon with dual wield wont get hit by an uppercut. dual wield provides a strong bleed dot and snare, while rapid strikes and heals at end. you believe a dual wield char while casting strikes will stand still? they normally move around you, mostly with minor or major expedition (one morph of blade cloak provides this), so a dizzy swing wont hit anyway. additionally uppercut is an unused skill atm. the only usage is a combo with deep fissure and dawnbreaker or uppercut into leap. but the dps output from dizzy swing is only marginally stronger than the skills from sword and shield give. thats why stamina toons atm go for some heroic slash, ransack and revert bash instead of uppercut swinging, since those skill provides snares, minor maim, minor heroism and defile. uppercut spamming builds are underwhelming and a rare sight if we look at decent players.

BrokenGameMechanics

Debating whether, Dizzy Swing / Reverse Slice never hits anyone vs Rapid Strikes channel precludes major expedition kiting anyone at speed ... will be a agree to disagree thing between folks.

However there is some "factual evidence" here which I hope is not that subjective. I play a lot of PVP and I assure you, I die all the time and consistently. Everyone, all build varieties, in all kinds of situations kill me and routinely so. And my observational statistics which should lack any sort of self selecting mode of death bias are:

1. The ratio of 2H vs DW users in PVP is overwhelmingly 2H.
2. Observing a reasonable variety of 2H skills in my death log is routine.
3. Observing DW skills beyond Steel Tornado is relatively rare.

Conclusion: Very, very few DW out there using the DW skills in PVP melee. (modulo Steel Tornado)

As someone who does slot DW, who has and continues to try and find ways to compete with Slashes, Strikes etc anytime I see anyone using similar skills in my death log it really stands out, because it is so rare. I can play hours and hours of PVP and never see a single Strikes and maybe a couple of Slashes. I especially note it because it is good to know that at least a select few are also out there trying to make DW work in PVP. Even if I know in my heart that at this point it's "not so good", but I still am out there experimenting.

But at the end of the day, you have to give some credence to the wisdom of masses. The preponderance of PVP'rs slot 2H over DW for a reason(s). This implies some distinct advantages of 2H over DW as it stands. Clearly the soon to be additional Set bonus change will exaggerate and extend this gap further. These are as close to "facts" about the situation as I think anyone can make. I am sure that many will dispute even these. But cool, just more polite agree to disagree then.

kyle.wilson

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

Debating whether, Dizzy Swing / Reverse Slice never hits anyone vs Rapid Strikes channel precludes major expedition kiting anyone at speed ... will be a agree to disagree thing between folks.

However there is some "factual evidence" here which I hope is not that subjective. I play a lot of PVP and I assure you, I die all the time and consistently. Everyone, all build varieties, in all kinds of situations kill me and routinely so. And my observational statistics which should lack any sort of self selecting mode of death bias are:

1. The ratio of 2H vs DW users in PVP is overwhelmingly 2H.
2. Observing a reasonable variety of 2H skills in my death log is routine.
3. Observing DW skills beyond Steel Tornado is relatively rare.

Conclusion: Very, very few DW out there using the DW skills in PVP melee. (modulo Steel Tornado)

As someone who does slot DW, who has and continues to try and find ways to compete with Slashes, Strikes etc anytime I see anyone using similar skills in my death log it really stands out, because it is so rare. I can play hours and hours of PVP and never see a single Strikes and maybe a couple of Slashes. I especially note it because it is good to know that at least a select few are also out there trying to make DW work in PVP. Even if I know in my heart that at this point it's "not so good", but I still am out there experimenting.

But at the end of the day, you have to give some credence to the wisdom of masses. The preponderance of PVP'rs slot 2H over DW for a reason(s). This implies some distinct advantages of 2H over DW as it stands. Clearly the soon to be additional Set bonus change will exaggerate and extend this gap further. These are as close to "facts" about the situation as I think anyone can make. I am sure that many will dispute even these. But cool, just more polite agree to disagree then.

Hidden blade seems to be a popular choice in zergling groups. A long range snare allows the zerg to easily overtake you.

Lynx7386

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

The issue here is that everyone saying something valid in this context/situation. In PVP DW is pretty rare as raw DPS over a period of time is meaningless in comparison to CCs and Burst. Clearly not the same as skeleton pounding.

Consider a DW vs 2H head to head in PVP. DW can spam Rapid Strikes and DOT Slashes. Since Rapid Strikes is a channel, the DW is effectively self-rooted. One Dizzy Swing later the DW is near one shot'd in damage, stunned, knocked back and I'm not sure these days, after stun recovery will also endure an off-balance debuff. (The DW lines does offer a single CC across the entire line, forget multiple effects in a single skill.) After that, at most a Reverse Slice / Executioner and ding ding ding, its over. (Another issue, DW has no execute.) DW is now, 2 hits, dead, done and dusted.

DW in PVP only made sense in the context of giving up effective melee combat for the offset of gaining the 5-5-2 build option. With that advantage now gone, very hard pressed to find a reason (ok, lets be blunt, there are none) for DW in PVP. Currently, it is already pretty rare to see DW in PVP, with a much larger ratio of 2H over DW. Expect DW to vanish like the Dodo for PVP when the changes hit.

If you play PVP, how many times have you looked at the Death Log and seen some serious damage from Flurry? Or even seen Flurry for that matter. Now how many times have you bit the dust from Dizzy Swing and/or Reverse Slice? One is a never happens and one is a yea, all the time. This is not serendipity.

So currently in a straight-up 1v1 DW vs 2H there is a big, big gap in PVP. Now consider that 2H just received for free!! an additional 400 Weapon Damage across the entire 2H line because they now get the Set Bonus from Automaton. Or now will get a big windfall in Stam + Stam recovery because their Dubious now procs Bone Pirate. These are not minor tooltip swings.

The ubiquitous nature of this change plus there are already so many 2H and Bow builds in PVP that will now get that Bone Pirate or Automaton or XXX buff from some second meta Set that wasn't there before, will clearly have the largest single impact to PVP balance ever. One can assume that historically Sets and Tooltips were balanced (or attempted to be) on the assumption of 5-5-2 or not 5-5-2. Now all that is out the window and I don't think there no compensating Tooltip and Set adjustments happening with this change. Pro or Con, which depends totally on your current build, it does mean that everyone's current build is now N/A and will radically change. For some it will be a Set adjustment, for others entire "styles of play" are gone and builds are dead. There will also be another big drop in PVP build diversity and skills.

Why are you insisting that flurry is the only thing dual wield has access to in pvp?

Shrouded daggers or flying blade. Burst damage, major brutality, and it can be thrown at range.

Checkmath

there are not more 2h builds out there because of the damage skills of 2h, but because 2h provides rally or forward momentum, a really strong skill with immunity to snares, major brutality and some healing (at least the FM morph). what you mostly see in your death recap is reverse slice, right? because its an execute and synergizes well with an AS 2h. there is also some synergy between uppercut, deep fissure, dawnbreaker and leap. but mostly its because of momentum. actually most of your encountered builds run sword and shield on the other bar and smash those heroic slashes, reverb bashes and ransack buttons before you get finished with reverse slice. but damage wise dual wield is better, also in PvP. its just another playstyle to let your bleeds and flurry heal you, while they do damage over time. anyway dual wield builds have a 2h on the other bar for the same reasons: FM and execute, but they fist smash the dual wield buttons.
actually its not a 2h vs dual wield issue, since 2h is for buffing and healing, while most damage is done on either the sword and board or dual wield bar. and sword and board just provides so much utility with its skills: snare, heroism, maim, defile, major fracture and blocking passives. this is what is superior to dual wield setups, not the 2h all alone.

BrokenGameMechanics

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Why are you insisting that flurry is the only thing dual wield has access to in pvp?

Shrouded daggers or flying blade. Burst damage, major brutality, and it can be thrown at range.

Personally I do not consider either Dagger morph as a "burst damage" skill.

Didn't mean to give that impression that DW is all Flurry. I commonly equip DW on both front and back. Shrouded daggers is hands down fav skill for me. Love it, use it. Oddly I actually prefer Rendering Slashes over Steel Tornado, but always have one or the other or even both routinely. I have tried everything to get anything effective out of Flurry, including optimized niche Sets, such as with Sword Dancer Set paired with a number of top stam sets in a 5-5-2 along with various 1v1 tactics / combos and just can't anything out of it reliably in PVP.

My main point here is that if you right now today line up a top 2H build vs a top DW build in PVP the 2H gets ALL the check boxes. Much higher burst damage check. Got CCs, stun, knock back, off balance, check, check, check. Solid execute, check. Gap closer check. Heal morphs, a DOT, a number of side effect buffs, check. Gotta admit 2H skill line has a lot of checks for stuff.

I will give DW a check for Daggers as a nice remote skill with good damage has no comparable in 2H. The DW heal morphs are nice enough in PVE, but of little to no utility in PVP.

But DW having no execute, no stuns, no gap closer, no big damage burst is pretty tough for a melee skill line. The really major point here is that 2H will from here get a really nice _major_ jump in tooltip damage with a 5-5-2 option from say Automaton, additional 400 pts weapon damage or from several K of additional Stamina such as via Bone Pirate. Current meta 2H builds will go mega-meta while DW stands still. Ergo, I'm anticipating very few of what already is minority will opt to continue to run DW in PVP post Summerset. Highly likely I'll make the change as well.

IAVITNI

SodanTok wrote: »

You mean like Infused trait that increases value of enchantment for same amount on 1H as on 2H and it even reduces cooldown of the second enchant on DW.

Or Nirnhoned trait that increases weapon damage of 1H by same value as staves or bows?

Because those are current meta traits...

I'm a PvP main. I adjusted OP to reflect that.

Checkmath wrote: »

there are not more 2h builds out there because of the damage skills of 2h, but because 2h provides rally or forward momentum, a really strong skill with immunity to snares, major brutality and some healing (at least the FM morph). what you mostly see in your death recap is reverse slice, right? because its an execute and synergizes well with an AS 2h. there is also some synergy between uppercut, deep fissure, dawnbreaker and leap. but mostly its because of momentum. actually most of your encountered builds run sword and shield on the other bar and smash those heroic slashes, reverb bashes and ransack buttons before you get finished with reverse slice. but damage wise dual wield is better, also in PvP. its just another playstyle to let your bleeds and flurry heal you, while they do damage over time. anyway dual wield builds have a 2h on the other bar for the same reasons: FM and execute, but they fist smash the dual wield buttons.
actually its not a 2h vs dual wield issue, since 2h is for buffing and healing, while most damage is done on either the sword and board or dual wield bar. and sword and board just provides so much utility with its skills: snare, heroism, maim, defile, major fracture and blocking passives. this is what is superior to dual wield setups, not the 2h all alone.

Only half true. The real reason why 2h is so prevalent is due to its burst. Rally/Momentum is a part of it yes, but the only class that can effectively run DW in PvP vs any opponent are Stamplars. Stamsorcs to a certain extent but these are really dueling builds being run in open world, and more often than not rely on cheese mechanics. This is in the context of open world. Dueling/zerging is a completely different game.

Summerset is pretty much going to pigeon hole PvP into 2h.

Now I didn't consider PvE, as honestly I don't see 2h ever competing with DW just because of how the skill lines are designed. That said, their is still diversity in PvP right now. This change will almost certainly change that.

Checkmath

2h provides burst?
Are you talking about uppercut?
I havent seen any competent player using uppercut for a long time. You get pretty much the same damage out of sword and board skills and weaving, just that those skills all provides debuffs additionally. For raw damage dual wield is best.
Still talking about burst and 2h, then you are probablx referring to deep fissure, dawnbreaker and leap, but nut 2h skills, since uppercut has no use against most decent players.
You can run dual wield on pretty much every stam toon, especially if you are going for a bleed build (master axes a must have). Stamina dot dragonknight, dual wield, stamina nightblade also works with dual wield, stamplar, uses bleeds to make might of the light always hit hard, so dual wield, stam wardens can use it too, stamsorcs running also dual wield and has a nice execute chance with flurry and bleed.
The only burst 2h provides is its ultimate, and there every class also can use dawnbreaker.

GreenSoup2HoT

All this change does is make the game less diverse from a pvp standpoint. Basically forces my dw/2h build into a 2h/2h or 2h/bow setup. The extra set bonus and enchant is what made me favor DW over the 2H passives. Now its just enchant compared to 2h passives where 2h passives win every time (for pvp).

IAVITNI

Checkmath wrote: »

2h provides burst?
Are you talking about uppercut?
I havent seen any competent player using uppercut for a long time. You get pretty much the same damage out of sword and board skills and weaving, just that those skills all provides debuffs additionally. For raw damage dual wield is best.
Still talking about burst and 2h, then you are probablx referring to deep fissure, dawnbreaker and leap, but nut 2h skills, since uppercut has no use against most decent players.
You can run dual wield on pretty much every stam toon, especially if you are going for a bleed build (master axes a must have). Stamina dot dragonknight, dual wield, stamina nightblade also works with dual wield, stamplar, uses bleeds to make might of the light always hit hard, so dual wield, stam wardens can use it too, stamsorcs running also dual wield and has a nice execute chance with flurry and bleed.
The only burst 2h provides is its ultimate, and there every class also can use dawnbreaker.

DW will parse more but a Dizzy-->ulti combo is still the best burst. Stamden simply does it best. Anyways, I'm not saying 2H is currently better on live, I was imply iterating the 2H is used for more than just Rally/Momentum. Still plenty of people that run 2H offensive bars.

Any stamclass can run DW on live, but this has more to do with the extra 5 pc they get allowing for higher stats--> more damage. The changes will increase 2H damage to the point where burst is most likely going to be enough to kill again, even in the tank meta, at which point why run a DoT build to bleed out your opponent over a 30 second fight when you can burst them in 6? You're right that any class can run DW (We just haveto agree to disagree on their level of effectiveness, I don't count posion+defile+siphoner abuse builds balanced), but they can also run 2H. Come 2h changes, it's most likely going to be 2h or bust. May as well get this on devs radar now.

Anyways, the realy target for these buffs would be magicka classes that are pretty much pidgeon holed into destro after this change comes through. Stamina has diversity in their weapon choice, Magicka is Destro or bust, and pretty much only Magplar has a real option between Lightning or Fire. Every other mag class is almost 100% going to run Fire Destro, with maybe the exception of magDKs who may stick with 1h&shield.

And for those who argue that mag classes shouldnt use melee weapons, Spellblade has been a default class in every Elder Scrolls game that I've played.

Aedaryl

@IAVITNI You are wrong.

2h is a trash weapon for doing damage.

Dizzing swing is the best burst stamina can have ?

This is just false. 1&D deal more burst damage than dizzing swing, and the gap will be increase even more next patch.

The 1h&S is infused + berserk glyph. The 2h is nirn with the infused berserk glyph proced on the 1&S bar. I took the best WD possible for 2h and a 100% uptime wd for 1h&S.

2h WD : 4626 => Dizzing swing burst: 17 691.

1h&S WD : 4134 => Heroic slash burst is a combo : light attack (4556) + heroic slash (9685) + bash (5250) = 19491.

2h burst is the noob burst. Good people cut anim and make it instant and without a cast time.

Priyasekarssk

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

The issue here is that everyone saying something valid in this context/situation. In PVP DW is pretty rare as raw DPS over a period of time is meaningless in comparison to CCs and Burst. Clearly not the same as skeleton pounding.

Consider a DW vs 2H head to head in PVP. DW can spam Rapid Strikes and DOT Slashes. Since Rapid Strikes is a channel, the DW is effectively self-rooted. One Dizzy Swing later the DW is near one shot'd in damage, stunned, knocked back and I'm not sure these days, after stun recovery will also endure an off-balance debuff. (The DW lines does offer a single CC across the entire line, forget multiple effects in a single skill.) After that, at most a Reverse Slice / Executioner and ding ding ding, its over. (Another issue, DW has no execute.) DW is now, 2 hits, dead, done and dusted.

DW in PVP only made sense in the context of giving up effective melee combat for the offset of gaining the 5-5-2 build option. With that advantage now gone, very hard pressed to find a reason (ok, lets be blunt, there are none) for DW in PVP. Currently, it is already pretty rare to see DW in PVP, with a much larger ratio of 2H over DW. Expect DW to vanish like the Dodo for PVP when the changes hit.

If you play PVP, how many times have you looked at the Death Log and seen some serious damage from Flurry? Or even seen Flurry for that matter. Now how many times have you bit the dust from Dizzy Swing and/or Reverse Slice? One is a never happens and one is a yea, all the time. This is not serendipity.

So currently in a straight-up 1v1 DW vs 2H there is a big, big gap in PVP. Now consider that 2H just received for free!! an additional 400 Weapon Damage across the entire 2H line because they now get the Set Bonus from Automaton. Or now will get a big windfall in Stam + Stam recovery because their Dubious now procs Bone Pirate. These are not minor tooltip swings.

The ubiquitous nature of this change plus there are already so many 2H and Bow builds in PVP that will now get that Bone Pirate or Automaton or XXX buff from some second meta Set that wasn't there before, will clearly have the largest single impact to PVP balance ever. One can assume that historically Sets and Tooltips were balanced (or attempted to be) on the assumption of 5-5-2 or not 5-5-2. Now all that is out the window and I don't think there no compensating Tooltip and Set adjustments happening with this change. Pro or Con, which depends totally on your current build, it does mean that everyone's current build is now N/A and will radically change. For some it will be a Set adjustment, for others entire "styles of play" are gone and builds are dead. There will also be another big drop in PVP build diversity and skills.

Aedaryl wrote: »

@IAVITNI You are wrong.

2h is a trash weapon for doing damage.

Dizzing swing is the best burst stamina can have ?

This is just false. 1&D deal more burst damage than dizzing swing, and the gap will be increase even more next patch.

The 1h&S is infused + berserk glyph. The 2h is nirn with the infused berserk glyph proced on the 1&S bar. I took the best WD possible for 2h and a 100% uptime wd for 1h&S.

2h WD : 4626 => Dizzing swing burst: 17 691.

1h&S WD : 4134 => Heroic slash burst is a combo : light attack (4556) + heroic slash (9685) + bash (5250) = 19491.

2h burst is the noob burst. Good people cut anim and make it instant and without a cast time.

2H is trash weapon? rofl. 2H is best weapon the game for PVP and solo PVE. Just see how much buffs 2H gives. So everyone is running trash weapon for solo PVE and PVP. what noobs they are.
How about nerfing the buffs for brawler & forward momentum& reverse slice ? Its long overdue. Its going to tilt PVP balance in long way from summer-set isles.

You can take damage buffs you want for 2H. Can we trade ? 2H is just trash according to your opinion !!!