Why isn't alkoash useful for a dps wearing it.

Tasear

Just a passing thought, but as know this is a tank set, but what would it take or taken for this to been used by dps as was originally meant to be used by.

Checkmath

Why giving it to a dd when he can wear a set, which allows him to pull more dps?
Thats the only reason behind it. The set actually was thought to be weared by a melee stamina toon, but pretty much every stamina set you see in endgame builds outperform alkosh. Thats why people thought to put it on the tank, so the debuff is still provided and the dd still can run full damage set.

Namarkas

In the beginning, the only real reason was that a certain tank meta was established, and everybody followed. I talked once with a mate who wore it as dd in a vAA run bc the tank did not have it/applying it at the mage is difficult, and he said it was no dps loss from his usual build, so it was definitely usable. Alkosh does not scale with your stats, but it could crit back then, and the dot even stacked (and still stacks?) meaning every Syerngy use got you the 14k damage,+ crits.

But now, with no crits, there are more viable options I guess. Still, it is definitely not the worst set out there. Plus if the tank wears for example toruq instead, it would be certainly an option to add to the group dps.

Tasear

Checkmath wrote: »

Why giving it to a dd when he can wear a set, which allows him to pull more dps?
Thats the only reason behind it. The set actually was thought to be weared by a melee stamina toon, but pretty much every stamina set you see in endgame builds outperform alkosh. Thats why people thought to put it on the tank, so the debuff is still provided and the dd still can run full damage set.

I always wondered if they got enough synergies would it be use on them or simply were numbers not enough?

Tasear

Namarkas wrote: »

In the beginning, the only real reason was that a certain tank meta was established, and everybody followed. I talked once with a mate who wore it as dd in a vAA run bc the tank did not have it/applying it at the mage is difficult, and he said it was no dps loss from his usual build, so it was definitely usable. Alkosh does not scale with your stats, but it could crit back then, and the dot even stacked (and still stacks?) meaning every Syerngy use got you the 14k damage,+ crits.

But now, with no crits, there are more viable options I guess. Still, it is definitely not the worst set out there. Plus if the tank wears for example toruq instead, it would be certainly an option to add to the group dps.

Maybe it had scaled better then would survived better. Might be interesting with night mother and sunderflame change. Could this become a thing?

Checkmath

with the current state of synergies tanks have plenty of synergies to activate. either there are spear shards, orbs, healing ritual, blood altar or lightning flood. additionally you get some more synergies from several ultimates. tanks have a lot of chances to activate them, since some are aoe dps abilities, so they are placed on the boss, where also the tank stands. actually a stamina melee dps could wear the sets and would have similar access to all those synergies, since he needs to stand near the boss in melee range.

Maura_Neysa

The biggest reason is because it encourages "stealing" Synergies. Synergies are a big part of Tank sustain, so its much appreciated if as many are left for the tank as possible.
Of Course DPS need synergies too, Templar purge is available to everyone.
Templar's with a good rotation are casting Shards at least twice as often as a Tank can take them.
Lastly the buff doesn't stack so there is no point in more then one person using it. So it makes the most sense that the one person is a tank. Like was previously mentioned though, it is a good DPS set as well. The 2-4 piece are useless to a tank after all.

Here is the flaw in Alkosh, you need synergies. Even with 12 people I often find a serious lack of options available. Go ahead and collect it, see if you like it. Even though I have Ebon and Alkosh, I often find myself in Ebon and Torug's because there just isn't enough synergies to make it worth while.

Namarkas

Tasear wrote: »

Maybe it had scaled better then would survived better. Might be interesting with night mother and sunderflame change. Could this become a thing?

Maybe, if Sunderflame/NMG actually gets nerfed into the ground, and we find ourself desperately struggeling for every point of penetration. But that is still a long way off I still think that the lack of "critablity" holds this set back as true dd set, as many other procsets. Monster sets are one thing, but a 5 pc bonus, that hurts. Might be that if the pen becomes necessary that a) every stam dd runs TFS or b) one stam dd "sacrifices" himself to the support role and wears toruq or alkosh, for the good of the trial group (because outside of trials this set loses even more). But I kinda doubt that (pure gut feeling)

Tasear

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

The biggest reason is because it encourages "stealing" Synergies. Synergies are a big part of Tank sustain, so its much appreciated if as many are left for the tank as possible.
Of Course DPS need synergies too, Templar purge is available to everyone.
Templar's with a good rotation are casting Shards at least twice as often as a Tank can take them.
Lastly the buff doesn't stack so there is no point in more then one person using it. So it makes the most sense that the one person is a tank. Like was previously mentioned though, it is a good DPS set as well. The 2-4 piece are useless to a tank after all.

Here is the flaw in Alkosh, you need synergies. Even with 12 people I often find a serious lack of options available. Go ahead and collect it, see if you like it. Even though I have Ebon and Alkosh, I often find myself in Ebon and Torug's because there just isn't enough synergies to make it worth while.

Makes sense just wondered what actually held this set back from being use as it was desinged.

Maura_Neysa

Namarkas wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Maybe it had scaled better then would survived better. Might be interesting with night mother and sunderflame change. Could this become a thing?

Maybe, if Sunderflame/NMG actually gets nerfed into the ground, and we find ourself desperately struggeling for every point of penetration. But that is still a long way off I still think that the lack of "critablity" holds this set back as true dd set, as many other procsets. Monster sets are one thing, but a 5 pc bonus, that hurts. Might be that if the pen becomes necessary that a) every stam dd runs TFS or b) one stam dd "sacrifices" himself to the support role and wears toruq or alkosh, for the good of the trial group (because outside of trials this set loses even more). But I kinda doubt that (pure gut feeling)

Your Tank should have both those sets. Especially with jewelry crafting coming. I suppose in a non organized group. Though with a group like that will anyone really be scrapping for every inch of pen?

Tasear

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Namarkas wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Maybe it had scaled better then would survived better. Might be interesting with night mother and sunderflame change. Could this become a thing?

Maybe, if Sunderflame/NMG actually gets nerfed into the ground, and we find ourself desperately struggeling for every point of penetration. But that is still a long way off I still think that the lack of "critablity" holds this set back as true dd set, as many other procsets. Monster sets are one thing, but a 5 pc bonus, that hurts. Might be that if the pen becomes necessary that a) every stam dd runs TFS or b) one stam dd "sacrifices" himself to the support role and wears toruq or alkosh, for the good of the trial group (because outside of trials this set loses even more). But I kinda doubt that (pure gut feeling)

Your Tank should have both those sets. Especially with jewelry crafting coming. I suppose in a non organized group. Though with a group like that will anyone really be scrapping for every inch of pen?

How do they not die doing that? Is it all champion points protecting them?

SaintSubwayy

Namarkas wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Maybe it had scaled better then would survived better. Might be interesting with night mother and sunderflame change. Could this become a thing?

Maybe, if Sunderflame/NMG actually gets nerfed into the ground, and we find ourself desperately struggeling for every point of penetration. But that is still a long way off I still think that the lack of "critablity" holds this set back as true dd set, as many other procsets. Monster sets are one thing, but a 5 pc bonus, that hurts. Might be that if the pen becomes necessary that a) every stam dd runs TFS or b) one stam dd "sacrifices" himself to the support role and wears toruq or alkosh, for the good of the trial group (because outside of trials this set loses even more). But I kinda doubt that (pure gut feeling)

well even if they nerf NMG and SF AFAIK they will ad 57 CP with summerset, so you can jsut put 19 of those points into Penetration and ignore the fact NMG is gone xD

Tasear

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Namarkas wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Maybe it had scaled better then would survived better. Might be interesting with night mother and sunderflame change. Could this become a thing?

Maybe, if Sunderflame/NMG actually gets nerfed into the ground, and we find ourself desperately struggeling for every point of penetration. But that is still a long way off I still think that the lack of "critablity" holds this set back as true dd set, as many other procsets. Monster sets are one thing, but a 5 pc bonus, that hurts. Might be that if the pen becomes necessary that a) every stam dd runs TFS or b) one stam dd "sacrifices" himself to the support role and wears toruq or alkosh, for the good of the trial group (because outside of trials this set loses even more). But I kinda doubt that (pure gut feeling)

well even if they nerf NMG and SF AFAIK they will ad 57 CP with summerset, so you can jsut put 19 of those points into Penetration and ignore the fact NMG is gone xD

maybe power creep is real answer why.

WuffyCerulei

I feel the reason why tanks use Alkosh is that they're always on the boss. They live more than dps, if said dps aren't a little cautious. There's also many mechanics where the dps have to back away from the boss, or the boss has to keep moving. The dps may not be close enough to the Alkosh proc on them. Tanks, however, are usually up the boss's butt and can easily get the proc onto it.

Maura_Neysa

Tasear wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Namarkas wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Maybe it had scaled better then would survived better. Might be interesting with night mother and sunderflame change. Could this become a thing?

Maybe, if Sunderflame/NMG actually gets nerfed into the ground, and we find ourself desperately struggeling for every point of penetration. But that is still a long way off I still think that the lack of "critablity" holds this set back as true dd set, as many other procsets. Monster sets are one thing, but a 5 pc bonus, that hurts. Might be that if the pen becomes necessary that a) every stam dd runs TFS or b) one stam dd "sacrifices" himself to the support role and wears toruq or alkosh, for the good of the trial group (because outside of trials this set loses even more). But I kinda doubt that (pure gut feeling)

Your Tank should have both those sets. Especially with jewelry crafting coming. I suppose in a non organized group. Though with a group like that will anyone really be scrapping for every inch of pen?

How do they not die doing that? Is it all champion points protecting them?

I hit resistance cap in Ebon/Alkosh/Lord Warden (mostly sturdy, no reinforced/nirn) with less than 10 points in CP resistance (+Bulwark star), all on a Warden Altmer tank. I do need Lord Warden, Bloodspawn, or 1/1 Bone/Chudan to get there. Also many tank builds dont actually build for cap. Last I looked Woelers DK tank was like 5k short on physical. It mostly just comes from wearing Heavy Armor

SaintSubwayy

Tasear wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Namarkas wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Maybe it had scaled better then would survived better. Might be interesting with night mother and sunderflame change. Could this become a thing?

Maybe, if Sunderflame/NMG actually gets nerfed into the ground, and we find ourself desperately struggeling for every point of penetration. But that is still a long way off I still think that the lack of "critablity" holds this set back as true dd set, as many other procsets. Monster sets are one thing, but a 5 pc bonus, that hurts. Might be that if the pen becomes necessary that a) every stam dd runs TFS or b) one stam dd "sacrifices" himself to the support role and wears toruq or alkosh, for the good of the trial group (because outside of trials this set loses even more). But I kinda doubt that (pure gut feeling)

well even if they nerf NMG and SF AFAIK they will ad 57 CP with summerset, so you can jsut put 19 of those points into Penetration and ignore the fact NMG is gone xD

maybe power creep is real answer why.

ofc there's a reason behind it, however adding more CP will force them to nerf other stuff....its an endless loop if they dont break it.
My suggestion with the 19 CPS is just a bandaid for the problem

FakeFox

Tasear wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Namarkas wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Maybe it had scaled better then would survived better. Might be interesting with night mother and sunderflame change. Could this become a thing?

Maybe, if Sunderflame/NMG actually gets nerfed into the ground, and we find ourself desperately struggeling for every point of penetration. But that is still a long way off I still think that the lack of "critablity" holds this set back as true dd set, as many other procsets. Monster sets are one thing, but a 5 pc bonus, that hurts. Might be that if the pen becomes necessary that a) every stam dd runs TFS or b) one stam dd "sacrifices" himself to the support role and wears toruq or alkosh, for the good of the trial group (because outside of trials this set loses even more). But I kinda doubt that (pure gut feeling)

Your Tank should have both those sets. Especially with jewelry crafting coming. I suppose in a non organized group. Though with a group like that will anyone really be scrapping for every inch of pen?

How do they not die doing that? Is it all champion points protecting them?

You can still wear heavy armour and stack 40-50k HP. Why should there be a problem?

Maura_Neysa

FakeFox wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Namarkas wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Maybe it had scaled better then would survived better. Might be interesting with night mother and sunderflame change. Could this become a thing?

Maybe, if Sunderflame/NMG actually gets nerfed into the ground, and we find ourself desperately struggeling for every point of penetration. But that is still a long way off I still think that the lack of "critablity" holds this set back as true dd set, as many other procsets. Monster sets are one thing, but a 5 pc bonus, that hurts. Might be that if the pen becomes necessary that a) every stam dd runs TFS or b) one stam dd "sacrifices" himself to the support role and wears toruq or alkosh, for the good of the trial group (because outside of trials this set loses even more). But I kinda doubt that (pure gut feeling)

Your Tank should have both those sets. Especially with jewelry crafting coming. I suppose in a non organized group. Though with a group like that will anyone really be scrapping for every inch of pen?

How do they not die doing that? Is it all champion points protecting them?

You can still wear heavy armour and stack 40-50k HP. Why should there be a problem?

6k Resistance is roughly 10% damage reduction. In comparison, 28k resistance vs 33k is the difference between 0 CP in Hardy & Elemental Defender and 43 in both.
My Tank in PvE gear
40k Health, 14k Mag, 18k Stam
Front: S&B - 35530 Spell Resistance, 33195 Physical Resistance
Back: Frost Staff - 30835 Spell Resistance, 31475 Physical Resistance

Namarkas

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Your Tank should have both those sets. Especially with jewelry crafting coming. I suppose in a non organized group. Though with a group like that will anyone really be scrapping for every inch of pen?

Well ofc but they normally don't run both at the same time. It's Ebon + something else usually, before somebody else runs Ebon a stam dd should rather run Alkosh
And yes I don't think that we will be scrapping for pen, just theoretically, some groups could get their pen this way.

Maura_Neysa

Namarkas wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Your Tank should have both those sets. Especially with jewelry crafting coming. I suppose in a non organized group. Though with a group like that will anyone really be scrapping for every inch of pen?

Well ofc but they normally don't run both at the same time. It's Ebon + something else usually, before somebody else runs Ebon a stam dd should rather run Alkosh
And yes I don't think that we will be scrapping for pen, just theoretically, some groups could get their pen this way.

Why not, when the other tank has Ebon covered, its what I go to next. Especially since Ebon is so much easier to farm. So its what a young tank will acquire first. Oddly enough, crafted Torug's isn't

Namarkas

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

well even if they nerf NMG and SF AFAIK they will ad 57 CP with summerset, so you can jsut put 19 of those points into Penetration and ignore the fact NMG is gone xD

57cp? where did you get that info? isn't it 30 cp like with every DLC?
also even 19 cp don't really compensate 2.6k pen , especially if you already have points there

Namarkas

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Why not, when the other tank has Ebon covered, its what I go to next. Especially since Ebon is so much easier to farm. So its what a young tank will acquire first. Oddly enough, crafted Torug's isn't

But "The other tank" is only around for certain vet encounters normally. And if you have a 2nd tank, it means there is some additional encounter to be dealth with, so the tanks will be split anyway and the benefit for the whole group is most of the times not guaranteed (meaning normally you don't stand idly at the boss as offtank applying your debuffs. Then you could be dd with more benefit). That's why I wouldn't use it in a calculation like this ("how much pen do we get in a bossfight").

Maura_Neysa

Namarkas wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Why not, when the other tank has Ebon covered, its what I go to next. Especially since Ebon is so much easier to farm. So its what a young tank will acquire first. Oddly enough, crafted Torug's isn't

But "The other tank" is only around for certain vet encounters normally. And if you have a 2nd tank, it means there is some additional encounter to be dealth with, so the tanks will be split anyway and the benefit for the whole group is most of the times not guaranteed (meaning normally you don't stand idly at the boss as offtank applying your debuffs. Then you could be dd with more benefit). That's why I wouldn't use it in a calculation like this ("how much pen do we get in a bossfight").

MoL, there is only one reason to have 2 tanks. Can't avoid it, but other than the Twins, the 2nd tank is idle (if somewhat to the side). vAA HM 2 tanks only for The Mage, the rest of the time idle. HRC 1st and Final boss, mostly idly by.
Half of the rest, one tank is in a selfish set up. The rest, both might as well be in Ebon and Alkosh

Namarkas

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Namarkas wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Why not, when the other tank has Ebon covered, its what I go to next. Especially since Ebon is so much easier to farm. So its what a young tank will acquire first. Oddly enough, crafted Torug's isn't

But "The other tank" is only around for certain vet encounters normally. And if you have a 2nd tank, it means there is some additional encounter to be dealth with, so the tanks will be split anyway and the benefit for the whole group is most of the times not guaranteed (meaning normally you don't stand idly at the boss as offtank applying your debuffs. Then you could be dd with more benefit). That's why I wouldn't use it in a calculation like this ("how much pen do we get in a bossfight").

MoL, there is only one reason to have 2 tanks. Can't avoid it, but other than the Twins, the 2nd tank is idle (if somewhat to the side). vAA HM 2 tanks only for The Mage, the rest of the time idle. HRC 1st and Final boss, mostly idly by.
Half of the rest, one tank is in a selfish set up. The rest, both might as well be in Ebon and Alkosh

Which is why I think that 2nd "tank" should actually be a dd when they are idle, and then they are not "tanks" for me in that fight. But I think that is mostly splitting hairs regarding definitions,and would just derail the thread. After all, I do agree with the digest of what you said

Silver_Strider

I think it has more to do with the alternatives to Alkosh being far more attractive.

VO is the King of Stamina Sustain while providing a good DPS buff on its own.
War Machine, while limited primarily to NBs and Wardens, provides monstrous amounts of DPS for those classes while also providing a very attractive buff for group members.
In comparison, Alkosh doesn't provide any sustain buffs, the DPS increase is nowhere near that of either VO or War Machine by itself and that the debuff it provides can only be placed by 1 person with all subsequent applications just refreshing it, makes it the worst of its kind for a DPS to use.

xaraan

It is actually.

The uptime on Alkosh on a tank isn't what every thinks it is. Granted, if you have a perfect scenerio and experienced players dropping synergies at perfect times, then it will get close enough for the tank. But sometimes having it on the tank and a DD is helpful. But just assuming that b/c a tank is wearing it doesn't mean you can count on the pen unless you know the tank is getting good synergies fed to them at the right times.

It also puts a physical DoT on the target that doesn't do as much good on a tank build that has less pen and other CP into physical damage.

Really depends on the situation. If your tank can run it and keep the buff up often enough, then it would benefit you to stack another pen set so you can get more pen from Twice Fang or what have you. This is easier in a trial where you have multiple tanks, healers and DPS to work with and build your group set up.

AND, one thing I always point out in threads where I get myself into arguments is most of the advice you get is "This is the optimal way to do something." - which only applies if the group itself is optimal - which means everyone pulling top DPS, everyone knowing mechanics, everyone wearing good sets, etc. This is not a situation you'll always find yourself in unless you play with a set group all the time and you know they are set up solidly. There will be many times you could end up in a sub-optimal run where Alkosh on anyone, even if it was you would be helpful to you and your group. The pen/dot will be better than just running a self pen set (I've gotten better #s with it than just straight pen) and even if your other dps in a 4 man was magicka, the pen will still help them as well.

I always keep a DPS version of Alkosh on a couple of my stammies just in case you are in a run where you'll see it come in handy. It would not be my default set up however.

usmcjdking

Alkosh's uptime would be nerfed significantly to justify putting it on a DPS.