Katanas (for critical increase) into existing 2H skill line? (Dagger equivalent)

GrumpyDuckling

Introducing Katanas into the 2H weapon skill line would allow players for a dagger-equivalent bonus (weapon critical rating) on a 2H build. Effectively, it would open up the 2H skill line as an option for crit-based builds, and options are always nice. Katanas appear to fit nicely into existing passives, and would follow the dagger model:

TWIN BLADE AND BLUNT (DUAL WIELD)
Grants a bonus based on type of weapon equipped:
Each axe gives your melee attacks a 8% chance to bleed enemies for [x] Physical Damage over 6 seconds.
Each mace causes your attacks to ignore 10% of an enemy's Physical Resistance.
Each sword increases your damage done by 2.5%.
Each dagger increases your Weapon Critical rating. (by 5%)

HEAVY WEAPONS (2H)
Grants bonus based on the type of weapon equipped:
Swords increase your damage done by 5%.
Axes grant your melee attacks 16% chance to apply a bleed dealing [x] Physical Damage over 6 seconds.
Maces cause your attacks to ignore 20% of your target's Physical Resistance.
Katanas increase your Weapon Critical rating. (by 10%)

Something to think about. Thoughts?

Kelces

Maybe a try to make some positive change for DPS on 2 handed for PvE?
Heavy attacks take longer, so with the right set-combo it may turn out quite good.

Maybe a bit much at 10%, but we will probably see some test results soon. Perhaps they even go with another stat later, but anyway a good start for this weapon type overall, I think.

Edit: One single issue though, the term should be Dai-Katana for 2 handed I just realized. Just a minor thing there...

GrumpyDuckling

Kelces wrote: »

Maybe a try to make some positive change for DPS on 2 handed for PvE?
Heavy attacks take longer, so with the right set-combo it may turn out quite good.

Maybe a bit much at 10%, but we will probably see some test results soon. Perhaps they even go with another stat later, but anyway a good start for this weapon type overall, I think.

I figured 10% weapon critical for a Katana makes sense. Dual Wielding daggers gives 10% weapon critical.

WrathOfInnos

Katanas already exist within the sword category: https://eso.mmo-fashion.com/soul-shriven-rubedite-greatsword/

I am all for a 2h weapon that buffs crit like daggers. I've supported the idea for spears to fill this role in the past, but that would likely require new animations. Whatever they go with would need a lot of new artwork for every motif style.

GrumpyDuckling

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Katanas already exist within the sword category: https://eso.mmo-fashion.com/soul-shriven-rubedite-greatsword/

I am all for a 2h weapon that buffs crit like daggers. I've supported the idea for spears to fill this role in the past, but that would likely require new animations. Whatever they go with would need a lot of new artwork for every motif style.

Oh sweet, I didn't know that there was a Katana appearance skin for a great sword.

Avran_Sylt

Could just do Pickaxe (or Pick) weapons. A general style most notable for a small head with a sharpened point.

DeadlyRecluse

The basic idea (a dagger equivalent/crit 2hander) is solid, imo. But I don't think a katana as a major weapon type makes a lot of sense, when there are a few katanas in swords already.

usmcjdking

I think a bo-staff would be the way to go, but they would need to create new animations to support it.

Kelces

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Kelces wrote: »

Maybe a try to make some positive change for DPS on 2 handed for PvE?
Heavy attacks take longer, so with the right set-combo it may turn out quite good.

Maybe a bit much at 10%, but we will probably see some test results soon. Perhaps they even go with another stat later, but anyway a good start for this weapon type overall, I think.

I figured 10% weapon critical for a Katana makes sense. Dual Wielding daggers gives 10% weapon critical.

True, but maybe a combination of both power and crit could more accurately define a real one. Because if you imagine a light sword, though wielded by two hands, the pure crit bonus would fit more for a heavy, regular greatsword than a Dai-Katana. Just my few cents...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnMVgrC4uRc
But defenitely something to look forward to...

GrumpyDuckling

Now that 2H count for two slots, maybe you could consider adding a crit option into 2H to further make it more of an option compared to dual wield, ZOS?

GreenSoup2HoT

From a pvp perspective whats the point. You cant crit 90% of cryodill (blocking/wards/impreg set).

I personally use the soul shriven 2h for my backbar to look like a katana.

But on a serious note crit builds got nerfed like 9001 times and i hate it.

Bobby_V_Rockit

But Katanas are swords... I suggested halberds or polearms about a year ago for the same reason, give 2H a crit equivalent.

Integral1900

It would be nice... but unlikely. ZOS seems bent on killing two handed in pve at least

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

This would not make two handers equal. The problem is the skills, always has been.

Integral1900 wrote: »

It would be nice... but unlikely. ZOS seems bent on killing two handed in pve at least

This is just false. They have done nothing but buff two handers. See the master two hander and the fact that they made them 2 set pieces.

Chilly-McFreeze

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

This would not make two handers equal. The problem is the skills, always has been.

Integral1900 wrote: »

It would be nice... but unlikely. ZOS seems bent on killing two handed in pve at least

This is just false. They have done nothing but buff two handers. See the master two hander and the fact that they made them 2 set pieces.

Didn’t know the reduced light attack damage was a buff.

Integral1900

They stripped the damage bonus long ago

The protection compared to blade cloak is useless at anything except trash pulls

We deal less damage than any skill line except sword and sheild, and worse, the snb heavy attack hits faster so it’s better anyway!

Most recently they gutted empower

They gutted heavy attacks

You show me a vet trials guild that will use two handed, video evidence only... then I will believe they have done anything but kill this thing!

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

This would not make two handers equal. The problem is the skills, always has been.

Integral1900 wrote: »

It would be nice... but unlikely. ZOS seems bent on killing two handed in pve at least

This is just false. They have done nothing but buff two handers. See the master two hander and the fact that they made them 2 set pieces.

Didn’t know the reduced light attack damage was a buff.

Light attacks with a two hander are AOE, no other weapon type has light attacks that are AOE. So the actual damage possibility is more then you are leading people to believe.

Chilly-McFreeze

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

This would not make two handers equal. The problem is the skills, always has been.

Integral1900 wrote: »

It would be nice... but unlikely. ZOS seems bent on killing two handed in pve at least

This is just false. They have done nothing but buff two handers. See the master two hander and the fact that they made them 2 set pieces.

Didn’t know the reduced light attack damage was a buff.

Light attacks with a two hander are AOE, no other weapon type has light attacks that are AOE. So the actual damage possibility is more then you are leading people to believe.

Okay. And that effects dps parses on single bosses how?

Yet 2h heavy attacks were nerfed too while lightning staff heavy attacks were buffed. What's with the AoE damage of those?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

This would not make two handers equal. The problem is the skills, always has been.

Integral1900 wrote: »

It would be nice... but unlikely. ZOS seems bent on killing two handed in pve at least

This is just false. They have done nothing but buff two handers. See the master two hander and the fact that they made them 2 set pieces.

Didn’t know the reduced light attack damage was a buff.

Light attacks with a two hander are AOE, no other weapon type has light attacks that are AOE. So the actual damage possibility is more then you are leading people to believe.

Okay. And that effects dps parses on single bosses how?

Yet 2h heavy attacks were nerfed too while lightning staff heavy attacks were buffed. What's with the AoE damage of those?

It is called a trade off. You know the thing that is supposed to matter. I know all people care about is single target DPS. Blah blah. But the fact is that if there is even one mob near the boss, two handers light attacks will do more overall damage per second then any other weapons light attacks.


I am aware of Lighting heavys. That is why I very specifically said "light attacks". You said "Didn’t know the reduced light attack damage was a buff." So let's stay on that subject shall we?


Also, light attacks are not the reason that two handers are lacking in dps in pve. the largest reason is the main dot, brawler, is like 40% of the DPS of the main dot of dual weilds, rending slashes. This is because brawler is an AOE though, like the light attacks you point out are lower. That is the trade off. AOE damage needs to be lower then single target, DPS wise, two hander is based on that, so people don't use two-handed because all they care about is single target numbers. That and dual weilds gets another dot, blade cloak. Like I keep saying, it is the skills that make two hander sub par single target compared to dual weilds damage. Till they change something about that, two hander will continue to be sub par in most people's eyes.

phaneub17_ESO

Javelin, Spear, Polearm, something long and stabby.

Bobby_V_Rockit

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Javelin, Spear, Polearm, something long and stabby.

Something that can hit the enemy in the eyes, the groin of the face...

Bobby_V_Rockit

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

This would not make two handers equal. The problem is the skills, always has been.

Integral1900 wrote: »

It would be nice... but unlikely. ZOS seems bent on killing two handed in pve at least

This is just false. They have done nothing but buff two handers. See the master two hander and the fact that they made them 2 set pieces.

Didn’t know the reduced light attack damage was a buff.

Light attacks with a two hander are AOE, no other weapon type has light attacks that are AOE. So the actual damage possibility is more then you are leading people to believe.

Think they meant “reduced light AND heavy attack damage”. Why was 2H the only one to cop that nerf?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

This would not make two handers equal. The problem is the skills, always has been.

Integral1900 wrote: »

It would be nice... but unlikely. ZOS seems bent on killing two handed in pve at least

This is just false. They have done nothing but buff two handers. See the master two hander and the fact that they made them 2 set pieces.

Didn’t know the reduced light attack damage was a buff.

Light attacks with a two hander are AOE, no other weapon type has light attacks that are AOE. So the actual damage possibility is more then you are leading people to believe.

Think they meant “reduced light AND heavy attack damage”. Why was 2H the only one to cop that nerf?

They specifically said light attacks and light attacks are what people use for DPS and I already explained why, the light attacks from two-handed are AOE. If there is even one more add, the two-handed light attacks will out DPS all other weapons.

Bladerunner1

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

This would not make two handers equal. The problem is the skills, always has been.

Integral1900 wrote: »

It would be nice... but unlikely. ZOS seems bent on killing two handed in pve at least

This is just false. They have done nothing but buff two handers. See the master two hander and the fact that they made them 2 set pieces.

Didn’t know the reduced light attack damage was a buff.

Light attacks with a two hander are AOE, no other weapon type has light attacks that are AOE. So the actual damage possibility is more then you are leading people to believe.

Think they meant “reduced light AND heavy attack damage”. Why was 2H the only one to cop that nerf?

They specifically said light attacks and light attacks are what people use for DPS and I already explained why, the light attacks from two-handed are AOE. If there is even one more add, the two-handed light attacks will out DPS all other weapons.

The AOE from forceful is a joke lately, have you tried it yourself?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

This would not make two handers equal. The problem is the skills, always has been.

Integral1900 wrote: »

It would be nice... but unlikely. ZOS seems bent on killing two handed in pve at least

This is just false. They have done nothing but buff two handers. See the master two hander and the fact that they made them 2 set pieces.

Didn’t know the reduced light attack damage was a buff.

Light attacks with a two hander are AOE, no other weapon type has light attacks that are AOE. So the actual damage possibility is more then you are leading people to believe.

Think they meant “reduced light AND heavy attack damage”. Why was 2H the only one to cop that nerf?

They specifically said light attacks and light attacks are what people use for DPS and I already explained why, the light attacks from two-handed are AOE. If there is even one more add, the two-handed light attacks will out DPS all other weapons.

The AOE from forceful is a joke lately, have you tried it yourself?

Yes, on my Stam sorc, says it is 73% of the damage but in testing it was actually 83%. So that is nice.

Bladerunner1

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

This would not make two handers equal. The problem is the skills, always has been.

Integral1900 wrote: »

It would be nice... but unlikely. ZOS seems bent on killing two handed in pve at least

This is just false. They have done nothing but buff two handers. See the master two hander and the fact that they made them 2 set pieces.

Didn’t know the reduced light attack damage was a buff.

Light attacks with a two hander are AOE, no other weapon type has light attacks that are AOE. So the actual damage possibility is more then you are leading people to believe.

Think they meant “reduced light AND heavy attack damage”. Why was 2H the only one to cop that nerf?

They specifically said light attacks and light attacks are what people use for DPS and I already explained why, the light attacks from two-handed are AOE. If there is even one more add, the two-handed light attacks will out DPS all other weapons.

The AOE from forceful is a joke lately, have you tried it yourself?

Yes, on my Stam sorc, says it is 73% of the damage but in testing it was actually 83%. So that is nice.

I've been seeing less when paired with Relequen.

That's 2% of the dps...

Compared to October last year:


Compared to last summer:


Compared to lightning splash damage from a staff on live


How is the current state of the two hand forceful passive not a lame joke?

Bobby_V_Rockit

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

This would not make two handers equal. The problem is the skills, always has been.

Integral1900 wrote: »

It would be nice... but unlikely. ZOS seems bent on killing two handed in pve at least

This is just false. They have done nothing but buff two handers. See the master two hander and the fact that they made them 2 set pieces.

Didn’t know the reduced light attack damage was a buff.

Light attacks with a two hander are AOE, no other weapon type has light attacks that are AOE. So the actual damage possibility is more then you are leading people to believe.

Think they meant “reduced light AND heavy attack damage”. Why was 2H the only one to cop that nerf?

They specifically said light attacks and light attacks are what people use for DPS and I already explained why, the light attacks from two-handed are AOE. If there is even one more add, the two-handed light attacks will out DPS all other weapons.

The AOE from forceful is a joke lately, have you tried it yourself?

Yes, on my Stam sorc, says it is 73% of the damage but in testing it was actually 83%. So that is nice.

I've been seeing less when paired with Relequen.

That's 2% of the dps...

Compared to October last year:


Compared to last summer:


Compared to lightning splash damage from a staff on live


How is the current state of the two hand forceful passive not a lame joke?

But those top 3 parses are all on different target dummies, with different resistances...

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

@Bladerunner1 I meant it was 83% of the main damage of the light attack. Not that it was 83% of my DPS or whatever you thought by posting dps pareses. The forceful passive is hard to get a parse for. Unless may e you stack 4 target dummys while doing your parse and then do the same with dual weild.


Also, again, I am just talking about light attacks. Please do not bring lightning heavys into it again and your test with lightning damage is skewed, you are probably using a vma staff and concussion from lighting damage will inflate the aoe as well.

Really though, do your parse on those 4 dummy's from the first pic with a dual wield set up and compare the light attack damage between two hander and dual weild. While adding forceful to the light attack damage.

Khivas_Carrick

Am I the only one that would like to see a Haste/Attack Speed buff placed back into this game and in a meaningful capacity? lol

I'd take being faster over crits imho =P Imagine if all your skills suddenly took less time to use.

Belegnole

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Katanas already exist within the sword category: https://eso.mmo-fashion.com/soul-shriven-rubedite-greatsword/

I am all for a 2h weapon that buffs crit like daggers. I've supported the idea for spears to fill this role in the past, but that would likely require new animations. Whatever they go with would need a lot of new artwork for every motif style.

Way too long to be a katana. Odachi maybe, but never a katana.

Chilly-McFreeze

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Bladerunner1 I meant it was 83% of the main damage of the light attack. Not that it was 83% of my DPS or whatever you thought by posting dps pareses. The forceful passive is hard to get a parse for. Unless may e you stack 4 target dummys while doing your parse and then do the same with dual weild.


Also, again, I am just talking about light attacks. Please do not bring lightning heavys into it again and your test with lightning damage is skewed, you are probably using a vma staff and concussion from lighting damage will inflate the aoe as well.

Really though, do your parse on those 4 dummy's from the first pic with a dual wield set up and compare the light attack damage between two hander and dual weild. While adding forceful to the light attack damage.

But isn't it generally acknowledged that you can't compare things in a vacuum? However, thing is that almost (?) no endgamers run with 2h builds. Be it because if the skills (I agree on you with that point tho) or for other reasons. But since the skills are still comparably underwhelming, the nerf to 2h light and heavy attacks accomplished nothing but to widen the gap between DW and 2h.
I don't even know why it was nerfed in the first place? Because of PvP? People used and use it there for other reasons. Because of forceful? It was already nerfed so it can't crit anymore. I just don't see the reason to elevate every other weapon line while 2h gets nerfed on both, la & ha.