Change how Master Writs Work

programcanaan

With the upcoming release of Jewelry crafting it would be a good idea to change the way that writs are calculated and distributed.

Amounts of traits need to be the first and most important part in calculating writ value. Style should have some pull but not as much as research.

Quality needs to be reworked in future master writs. Writs should be able to be completed in any quality(normal,fine,superior,epic,legendary), but the rewards should be increased depending on how high the quality is. It's pretty disheartening to do writs all week only to get a 7 writ voucher that calls only for an epic. That way the writs would be more rewarding based on the crafter's provided materials and effort rather than a rng determined value. It really would add more balance to the system.

In a nutshell I want to see less rng and effort properly rewarded.

gabriebe

That's kind of how it is already though. I think it's somewhere along the lines of Quality x Traits Needed + Nirnhorn value. I got a 270 writs the other day and it was for a nirnhorned Armor Master Legendary weapon.

programcanaan

gabriebe wrote: »

That's kind of how it is already though. I think it's somewhere along the lines of Quality x Traits Needed + Nirnhorn value. I got a 270 writs the other day and it was for a nirnhorned Armor Master Legendary weapon.

Except the fact you need to get super lucky to get that sort of writ. You can't choose to hand in a legendary piece on an epic writ. It would give more flexibility to the master writs if there was no quality requirement on them. If a crafter could choose how much effort to put in, they should be rewarded for that effort.

Taleof2Cities

programcanaan wrote: »

gabriebe wrote: »

That's kind of how it is already though. I think it's somewhere along the lines of Quality x Traits Needed + Nirnhorn value. I got a 270 writs the other day and it was for a nirnhorned Armor Master Legendary weapon.

Except the fact you need to get super lucky to get that sort of writ. You can't choose to hand in a legendary piece on an epic writ. It would give more flexibility to the master writs if there was no quality requirement on them. If a crafter could choose how much effort to put in, they should be rewarded for that effort.

Looks like this would be very slanted towards your specific playstyle: "I have a lot of improvement tempers and trait research ... but my motif knowledge is severely lacking."

This is end game crafting.

If you want to choose little effort put in ... the 2-7 voucher writs already fit that kind of playstyle.

Master crafters should be rewarded for their overall body of work. That includes motif knowledge.

programcanaan

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

programcanaan wrote: »

gabriebe wrote: »

That's kind of how it is already though. I think it's somewhere along the lines of Quality x Traits Needed + Nirnhorn value. I got a 270 writs the other day and it was for a nirnhorned Armor Master Legendary weapon.

Except the fact you need to get super lucky to get that sort of writ. You can't choose to hand in a legendary piece on an epic writ. It would give more flexibility to the master writs if there was no quality requirement on them. If a crafter could choose how much effort to put in, they should be rewarded for that effort.

Looks like this would be very slanted towards your specific playstyle: "I have a lot of improvement tempers and trait research ... but my motif knowledge is severely lacking."

This is end game crafting.

If you want to choose little effort put in ... the 2-7 voucher writs already fit that kind of playstyle.

Master crafters should be rewarded for their overall body of work. That includes motif knowledge.

Clearly higher end motifs should yield higher rewards( As I said in mah first post). But shouldn't more traits not pull more weight than they currently do?

My main concern is that quality should be made a choice not a requirement. You should be rewarded more for better quality if you choose to put in the effort. So rng doesn't dominate everything.

Taleof2Cities

programcanaan wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

programcanaan wrote: »

gabriebe wrote: »

That's kind of how it is already though. I think it's somewhere along the lines of Quality x Traits Needed + Nirnhorn value. I got a 270 writs the other day and it was for a nirnhorned Armor Master Legendary weapon.

Except the fact you need to get super lucky to get that sort of writ. You can't choose to hand in a legendary piece on an epic writ. It would give more flexibility to the master writs if there was no quality requirement on them. If a crafter could choose how much effort to put in, they should be rewarded for that effort.

Looks like this would be very slanted towards your specific playstyle: "I have a lot of improvement tempers and trait research ... but my motif knowledge is severely lacking."

This is end game crafting.

If you want to choose little effort put in ... the 2-7 voucher writs already fit that kind of playstyle.

Master crafters should be rewarded for their overall body of work. That includes motif knowledge.

Clearly higher end motifs should yield higher rewards( As I said in mah first post). But shouldn't more traits not pull more weight than they currently do?

My main concern is that quality should be made a choice not a requirement. You should be rewarded more for better quality if you choose to put in the effort. So rng doesn't dominate everything.

Is adding 4 more purple tempers for epic and 8 more tempers for legendary at a crafting table actually effort?

It takes 10 seconds to upgrade a blue item to gold ... assuming you have the improvement tempers on-hand. For most crafters playing the game for awhile, this isn’t a problem.

But, I think your proposal is masking another issue.

Sometimes players can’t craft a high voucher writ because they don’t have the motif style learned for that writ.

So, the workaround (which again caters to your specific playstyle) is to keep or sell those writs at a low voucher cost ... while following through with the rest of the writs you can do at epic or legendary. Where most crafters have an ample supply of improvement tempers.

In other words, you’re rewarded on your playstyle rather than what you bring to the table as a crafter.

Trust me when I say this: It does take effort to learn motif styles.

Not only does your chances of master writ drops improve with every full purple and gold motif book learned, but so does your chance of actually being able to make the equipment piece the writ calls for.

Eventually, it doesn’t matter what the writ voucher amount is ... because you can craft it and turn it in anyway.

Slick_007

programcanaan wrote: »

Quality needs to be reworked in future master writs. Writs should be able to be completed in any quality(normal,fine,superior,epic,legendary), but the rewards should be increased depending on how high the quality is.

so rich players should get a larger reward is your idea. because they can afford all the upgrade mats.
no

helediron

If this would happen, I would make every writ at highest possible level, and i do not run out of mats.

xaraan

They aren't going to go away from the RNG factor. There is a reason it plays such a huge role in a variety of the game.

Plus, guaranteeing someone a farm of high point voucher just b/c they are either rich legit or rich b/c they took advantage of the launch dupe bug (SEVERAL of these players still in the system btw) and just have tons of matts and money is just letting them pile on even more of a different sort of revenue. RNG doesn't stop it entirely, but keeps it manage-able and gives those not in that position a lucky way to boost up their writ points or gold by selling them.

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO

For reference also check this thread.

For a balanced system for the clothing/black-smithing/woodworking master writs, i.e. a system that values real crafters more than people just farming vouchers or with even more time than money/gold, this one would propose the following system, where knowledge of traits has (at least as of today) motifs nearly the same value as knowledge of styles, with more difficult styles / motifs having an appropriate higher value

This would works as follows
For each trait researched (for each base item) take the numbers of hours (w/o time modifiers) it took to research, i.e.
(1/4 [days])^(#traits researched)

So that someone who researched all 9 traits for one items would get 64 points, while one who researched 9 base items but only 1 trait each would get 9, while a master crafter who has unlocked all traits for all 14+14+6 base items would get 2176 points

Similar for styles, each basic/blue style would equal 14 points, each one book/purple motif known would equal 28 points, while each gold motif, respectively all purple pages of the more difficult motifs would count for 42 points, i.e. each single page of those motifs would count for 3 points.

Anyone who knows only the basic (blue) motifs would therefore only have 126 points,iIf you had also know the few 'full book only' purple motifs to that you add 112 points for a total of 238 points, while a real master crafter - with knowledge of all the current motifs (not counting the crown store only motifs) would achieve 1764 points for styles (hopefully not missing some styles, but ZOS just keeps adding and adding them)

For the chance to get a master writ: Calculate the number for known traits and styles and add the points, divide by total points possible and multiply by the maximum chance for receiving a master writ

Similar for the number of writ vouchers you can get for crafting a master writ
The base value should given by (#traits)*(#traits + 1)/2 so that crafting a high number of traits required set is actually more valuable than a low number of traits set. These values range then from 3, 6, 10, 15, 21, 28, 36 to 45. (minimum 2 traits)

It is then up to you how much you want to improve these, as a writ for a legendary 2 trait piece would be a complete waste.
For while quality divide by 4 (and round up), for green quality divide by 3 (and round up), for blue quality divide by 2 (and round up), for epic quality you get the above base values, while for legendary quality, you multiply by 4, i.e. for a maximum of 12, 24, 60, 84, 96, 144 and 180.

Nirnhoned should counts as +1 trait. So for a nirnhoned 9 trait piece you could get up to 220 vouchers for legendary quality, which is actually less than what you could get now if the RNG gods favour you highly (but more on average, see below).

However, e.g. for an epic 6 trait (none nirnhoned) piece you could now get 28 vouchers, instead of around the 6 you get today
Similar you would get 36 if nirnhoned (6 traits, epic) instead of about 20 or so now (anyone know the spread here?)
So on average, you can come out ahead, with the new system, except for 2 trait sets (3 traits is equal).

Last but not least, ZOS should ensure that you can only get a writ for a style and trait you already know!

This way it is ensured, that those with max traits and styles have a much higher chance to get an appropriate master writ, while once you got one, the reward is independent of styles known (or style difficulty).

This also ensures that someone with more traits unlocked has a higher chance to receive a writ for a piece with higher trait numbers, while a starting master (not all traits unlocked, but already at a skill of 50) can only receive writs for simpler pieces, with an accordingly lower return of writ vouchers per craft.

End result: Real masters at their craft have the highest chance to receive writs worth a high number of vouchers, but even a starting master can get a good number of writs, if he/she puts in the effort/gold when upgrading it accordingly, or buying the simpler writs from others, should these choose to concentrate on the high voucher ones. Learning more styles, also here means more possible writs to craft and an increasing chance for a master writ.

In the end: Knowing all traits and more styles becomes worthwhile; while doing master writs remains/becomes profitable for those with less knowledge (in traits/styles).

davey1107

I like your ideas, but I think the current system was chosen to favor simplicity. As a crafting nerd, I would totally get behind multi-tiered highly variable writs...I’m not sure the benefits would outweigh the confusion for less experienced players, however.

If they gave the option to make the quality you want, then every writ would be held for the maximum value (legendary). Which means all the smaller level writs would disappear, pushing a lot of people out of the system. And they’d also need to make master writs way less common...since any that dropped could be worth hundreds of vouchers. This would have the consequence of further turning master writs over to only players who have multiple top level crafters...it’d be a tough sell to ask a lot of more casual crafters to do the dailies for a quest every two months.

But I could get behind altering the values a bit. They could add a voucher per trait knowledge required, for example. So that 5 voucher epic quests become 6-14 vouchers. This is a bit like giving away something for nothing, but it could be done.

redspecter23

I'd like to see them do away with all epic level "master" writs. That doesn't sound very master to me.

programcanaan

redspecter23 wrote: »

I'd like to see them do away with all epic level "master" writs. That doesn't sound very master to me.

I like your style! You're completely right there is no need for epic writs. Legendary should be the only option.

Wreuntzylla

davey1107 wrote: »

I like your ideas, but I think the current system was chosen to favor simplicity. As a crafting nerd, I would totally get behind multi-tiered highly variable writs...I’m not sure the benefits would outweigh the confusion for less experienced players, however.

If they gave the option to make the quality you want, then every writ would be held for the maximum value (legendary). Which means all the smaller level writs would disappear, pushing a lot of people out of the system. And they’d also need to make master writs way less common...since any that dropped could be worth hundreds of vouchers. This would have the consequence of further turning master writs over to only players who have multiple top level crafters...it’d be a tough sell to ask a lot of more casual crafters to do the dailies for a quest every two months.

But I could get behind altering the values a bit. They could add a voucher per trait knowledge required, for example. So that 5 voucher epic quests become 6-14 vouchers. This is a bit like giving away something for nothing, but it could be done.

Not at all, it was made to favor the crown store, which directly (or indirectly through crates) sells motif books and trait knowledge.

The issue I have is not with the total amount of vouchers I can farm, but that I have to spend hours each week going from housing to Mournhold, over and over and over and...

Let us "sell" some number of lower value master writs to an NPC which takes all the required mats from you and then provides a higher value master writ. The mats needed for the high value master writ is the cost of the exchange.

Taleof2Cities

programcanaan wrote: »

In the end: Knowing all traits and more styles becomes worthwhile; while doing master writs remains/becomes profitable for those with less knowledge (in traits/styles).

I won’t make another long post, here, but I fundamentally disagree with this.

Crafters should be rewarded for their overall body of work ... and not be rewarded for having “less knowledge”. Such a change would devalue the crafting professions as a whole.

Carbonised

Sorry OP, while I agree on the premise that skill should be rewarded more than randomness, I don't think this is the right way of going about it.

First, traits and motifs /both/ should count significantly towards drop chance. Right now, traits seem to have a decent impact, while motifs are almost negligible. Both motif and trait grinds are time consuming and expensive, I wish to see both factor into drop chance. Perhaps even with a small added bonus for Nirnhoned trait.

Secondly, choosing what tier you hand in your reward is not only hard to code and an unnecessary complication, as Heledir also wrote, power crafters would always turn in golden rewards for a huge amount of vouchers and practically undermine the system or flood the market with voucher rewards. That is not an outcome I wish to see.
The current reward system is fine, with the aforementioned change to factor traits and motifs more heavily into the equation.

The individual master writs need to get looked at too, there's the infamous provisioning writ that requires Roe, but in general, all 3 consumable crafts need to be looked at. For alchemy and provisioning, they should make the required crafting goods 10x higher, so 80 food items instead of 8 (which is still only 2 x crafting for a provisioner with all the passives), while also making the vouchers rewarded 10x higher, so 20 vouchers instead of 2. Same for alchemy. Enchanting should also be 5-10 x higher on both crafted glyphs and vouchers. Voucher rewards for Hakeijo glyphs and Kuta glyphs alone (not together) is still too low.

So yes to tinkering a bit more with some of the rewards, especially consumables, but no to choosing your own hand in tier, and no to downgrading motif knowledge in the equation, it's already miniscule as it is.

Jayne_Doe

The problem with the RNG is that a fresh level 50 blacksmith can pull a 300+ writ from their first box. Now, the likelihood that they could complete it would be small, but the fact remains that anyone doing top-tier writs can pull a high-value writ. Yes, if you can't complete it yourself, you can sell it or hold onto it until you can.

Then, the opposite can happen - a master crafter with all traits/motifs/achieves may never pull a high-value writ. Perhaps they get writs more often, but they may only ever get 5-7 value writs. Now, yes, they can buy higher-value writs, but why should they have to?

I've learned all motifs in the game (well, now I haven't since they introduced Worm Cult) and I have not noticed any kind of increase in the master writs my main pulls. She still consistently pulls the consumables writs, with an occasional 5-7 voucher gear writ.

I have pulled a few that have been above 100, with my highest at 257, but NONE of these have been from my main. If I didn't do MWs on my alts, I'd have received far fewer vouchers since the system launched.

My issue is that I'd like to see Master crafters not only have a higher chance than they currently do now, but that they have a higher chance of getting higher-value writs. Now, this may be more complicated than ZOS wants to code, but the truth is, it's frustrating when you've been struggling along hoping for even consumable writs - ANY writs, and then see someone (in this case, my husband) who has far less crafting knowledge than I, pull a 280 writ one week, with the following week, on the same day, pulling a 300+ writ and a 92 writ. Really disheartening.

RNG does not reward a master crafter unless they get lucky. Sure, MAYBE they end up getting more writs overall after several months, but whether their actual voucher count is higher, is entirely based on luck. They could have gotten 100 5-7 voucher writs, and used up a ton more mats, while someone else gets 50 20-300 voucher writs.

In then end, though, I'm not sure how "fair" they can make it when it's based on RNG. It is what it is - luck. But, weighting it a little more in the favor of those who've put a lot of time, effort, and gold to learn all motifs and traits, would be nice. If Master Writs are end-game for crafters, then it needs to better reward Master crafters. As it is, it seems to be more of a mat sink than anything.

mike_skleinub17_ESO

The benefits I've seen from the masters I've done thus far just this week are sorely lacking to the point that there's no way in heck I'd sacrifice legendary mats unless the rewards were scaled significantly. I have plenty of epic and below mats, but legendary is reserved for my own character use.

For two of my masters I had to shell out about 50k total for the motifs. Rewards were not even remotely close to what I spent. Not that they should be, but exp and a paltry 332 gold I think it was is just pathetic. The exp is nice yes, but its not enough