Damage is out of control.

wheem_ESO

Surely I'm not the only one that would prefer to see the "average" time-to-kill be a bit longer? The amount of people that I've seen explode in a single burst combo is just ridiculous, and it makes for very poor gameplay, without all that much thought or decision making going into most engagements. Far too often the only "strategy" is...dump the maximum amount of damage into enemy players, and run away if things go badly. There's almost never a situation where you can afford to wait out a stun duration - which has actually been a big deal in some other games; if you immediately break the first CC that comes your way, you could very well find yourself being switched-to and focus fired, since you won't be able to handle subsequent CCs. In ESO, if you don't break the stun, you're almost certainly dead.

As one example - and there are plenty of others from other players and classes that are basically just as ridiculous - I'll present a screenshot:

That's 19,368 damage in two button presses (not counting the mouse click for a light attack weave), all landing almost instantly. There would be a 1 second global on the Dawnbreaker, and - according to the skills page on the fextralife wiki - a 1.1 second channel on Biting Jabs (I was thinking it was 1.2, but whatever). And since it's a Capture the Relic game, the sigil isn't a factor. This type of damage from a single player just simply should not be possible. Period. I don't care how skilled someone is, what build they have, how long they've been playing, or blah blah blah - this sort of damage simply doesn't belong in the game with the current hit point levels that most people have.

And this isn't a case of, "Oh no I died, nerf whatever killed me!" either. I've blown people up very quickly, and I've witnessed countless players getting waylaid by one burst combo from one other player. While I doubt anyone wants to spend an entire match being unable to land any kills, surely we can make things feel a little more like MMO-PvP, and a little less like an FPS set in Tamriel.

Anotherone773

whats your critical resistance? that is very important in pvp. If you arent wearing impenetrable gear, you will take massive amounts of damage and can easily be 2 or 3 shot to death.

ecru

I've said this for awhile, but people here don't really want to hear it--TTK is too low because health pools are too low. This creates a bad situation for everyone where the only counter to being bursted down is either 1) ridiculous defense (permablock/high mitigation builds), or 2) ridiculous self heals/self saves. You absolutely have to have one or the other to be able to counter the amount of outgoing dps, which could equal your entire hp bar in 2 gcd's. It's dumb. Other games aren't like this for a reason--this isn't a FPS, no one should be getting instagibbed in a mmo and health bars should not be going from 100 to 15 to 100 again in a few seconds from the damage/healing of one single player. If it were up to me, I would double health pools and reduce the effectiveness heals in general. This would increase TTK and reign in the ridiculous healing, limiting big burst/sustained healing to players who actually build to heal, rather than literally everyone.

ZOS could learn a lot from Blizzard when it comes to these things. WoW does just about everything better.

Anotherone773 wrote: »

whats your critical resistance? that is very important in pvp. If you arent wearing impenetrable gear, you will take massive amounts of damage and can easily be 2 or 3 shot to death.

This is another thing I really don't agree with. The requirement of impen gear to not fall over the moment an enemy looks at you is something that should also be reigned in. When everyone is wearing almost all of the same trait because it's pretty much required to be viable, armor traits in pvp might as well not even exist. I know people are already really invested in their impen gear so a drastic change wouldn't go over well with the pvp playerbase, but I think it's necessary. It also punishes anyone jumping into pvp with their basic dps set much too harshly, which probably doesn't contribute much to people's willingness to pvp. Pve sets with pve traits in pvp should at least be viable, but right now they're a death sentence. The average player jumping into bg's for fun probably doesn't know this, gets wrecked over and over again, and decides that pvp sucks and doesn't queue again.

Skander

They nerfed tanks, without thinking that maybe the iusse with tanks is that they weren't tanky but they were tough. And they did deal a lot of dmg. But now they do peanut dmg and still are not tanks

wheem_ESO

Anotherone773 wrote: »

whats your critical resistance? that is very important in pvp. If you arent wearing impenetrable gear, you will take massive amounts of damage and can easily be 2 or 3 shot to death.

In the gear that I was wearing in the above screenshot - which is a setup I'm experimenting with and not 100% optimal with traits - I believe it's just shy of 1,000. But I'm honestly not sure just how much it matters, unless perhaps virtually every single person in PC-NA Battlegrounds is running with essentially the same amount of Crit Resistance that I am.

My opinion is quite similar to that of @ecru - if you're not either permablocking or dodge roll spamming, you're probably going to die really quickly. "Passive" defense just doesn't seem to be enough, as I've been running Wizard's Riposte a bit lately, and the survivability is still really atrocious. The people who survive my damage the best are the ones who either spam dodge rolls, reflects, or absorbs; if they do that, they go from being a relatively quick kill to being totally untouchable. And guess who spams those things the best? That's right - stamina builds...the very same ones that are the biggest "offenders" of ridiculous burst damage (though it's not only them, to be sure).

Gilvoth

time to kill should be longer.
people should not be able to kill eachother in 2 seconds and / or less.

Anotherone773

ecru wrote: »

This is another thing I really don't agree with. The requirement of impen gear to not fall over the moment an enemy looks at you is something that should also be reigned in. When everyone is wearing almost all of the same trait because it's pretty much required to be viable, armor traits in pvp might as well not even exist. I know people are already really invested in their impen gear so a drastic change wouldn't go over well with the pvp playerbase, but I think it's necessary. It also punishes anyone jumping into pvp with their basic dps set much too harshly, which probably doesn't contribute much to people's willingness to pvp. Pve sets with pve traits in pvp should at least be viable, but right now they're a death sentence. The average player jumping into bg's for fun probably doesn't know this, gets wrecked over and over again, and decides that pvp sucks and doesn't queue again.

I dont agree with it either but thats what it is. Unfortunately many games that are pve focused with a bit of pvp thrown in like this one, balance for pve and then try to adjust pvp accordingly. Which is backwards. You balance for PVP and adjust PVE accordingly. Its a lot better to adjust mobs than it is to adjust players. Its just more lazy to balance for mobs and use some stupid ability on special pvp gear to fix pvp.

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

whats your critical resistance? that is very important in pvp. If you arent wearing impenetrable gear, you will take massive amounts of damage and can easily be 2 or 3 shot to death.

In the gear that I was wearing in the above screenshot - which is a setup I'm experimenting with and not 100% optimal with traits - I believe it's just shy of 1,000. But I'm honestly not sure just how much it matters, unless perhaps virtually every single person in PC-NA Battlegrounds is running with essentially the same amount of Crit Resistance that I am.

My opinion is quite similar to that of @ecru - if you're not either permablocking or dodge roll spamming, you're probably going to die really quickly. "Passive" defense just doesn't seem to be enough, as I've been running Wizard's Riposte a bit lately, and the survivability is still really atrocious. The people who survive my damage the best are the ones who either spam dodge rolls, reflects, or absorbs; if they do that, they go from being a relatively quick kill to being totally untouchable. And guess who spams those things the best? That's right - stamina builds...the very same ones that are the biggest "offenders" of ridiculous burst damage (though it's not only them, to be sure).

Thats about 15% critical resist. I dont use impen. gear in pvp because i dont play it seriously. One of the reason being the one in this thread. CC, and two shot isnt pvp. But i have the same experiences in pvp. I dont even get the chance to recover from CC before im killed.

Personally, i think they should remove critical hits from pvp and remove CC, lets see how good everyone is without PVE crutches.

Sugaroverdose

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

time to kill should be longer.
people should not be able to kill eachother in 2 seconds and / or less.

In two seconds people die only if they do nothing, or get multiple enemies, play magplar in reactive if you don't want to die without L2P

Maryal

Death recaps should include a snapshot of the person's stats (the person who died) immediately prior to the first item of damage listed on the death recap.

It should also include the actions of the person who died starting from the first item of damage (listed on their death recap) until they died.

Unfortunately, an image of someone's death recap tells only part of the story, it's not enough to provide the whole picture.

Gilvoth

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

time to kill should be longer.
people should not be able to kill eachother in 2 seconds and / or less.

In two seconds people die only if they do nothing, or get multiple enemies, play magplar in reactive if you don't want to die without L2P

none of that matters, you should not be able to be killed that fast.
fight should be a fights that give both sides a chance to hold themselves up for atleast 3 minutes and able to actually have a Fight instead of instant death even if you are not built properly and even if you cannot do alot of damage.

Chilly-McFreeze

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Thats about 15% critical resist. I dont use impen. gear in pvp because i dont play it seriously. One of the reason being the one in this thread. CC, and two shot isnt pvp. But i have the same experiences in pvp. I dont even get the chance to recover from CC before im killed.

Personally, i think they should remove critical hits from pvp and remove CC, lets see how good everyone is without PVE crutches.

*plays pvp without proper gear bc he thinks pvp is stupid*
*dies fast due to lack of proper gear*
*intensifies opinion about pvp being stupid*

Strider__Roshin

If anything the TTK is too long in this game. You should ask the Destiny community how increasing the TTK went for them.

wheem_ESO

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

time to kill should be longer.
people should not be able to kill eachother in 2 seconds and / or less.

In two seconds people die only if they do nothing, or get multiple enemies, play magplar in reactive if you don't want to die without L2P

I guess tons of people in Battlegrounds are constantly going AFK for a few seconds at a time then, right in the midst of a fight. And even if a player doesn't fully die in 2 seconds, the fight is often decided in one burst combo. Unless of course it's a stam build that can dodge roll spam into a big rally heal, or LOS and Vigor. Mag Sorc and Mag NB can occasionally pull off some good recoveries as well, but not like stam can. The primary reason for this is damage being so high; if you have to tank the damage without a build that's capable of a significant amount of blocking, you generally can't recover without outside help. The only way to recover without support is to cut that huge incoming damage to 0, ie dodge roll spamming and/or getting LOS.

Maryal wrote: »

Death recaps should include a snapshot of the person's stats (the person who died) immediately prior to the first item of damage listed on the death recap.

It should also include the actions of the person who died starting from the first item of damage (listed on their death recap) until they died.

Unfortunately, an image of someone's death recap tells only part of the story, it's not enough to provide the whole picture.

I was skirmishing with a different player, who was on the stairs just ahead of me. This magicka player was doing very light damage to me, and I was just poking and prodding a little, seeing if I could draw them away from their relic. I was pretty much full HP - not sure if I had a shield up or not, though it's < 6k in BGs - and the Stamina Templar came up behind me and killed me before I could react. And I'm not the only person he was doing that to; he was ignoring objectives and running the map insta-gibbing people, then spamming dodge rolls + sprint + AOE snare in order to escape the rest of the team.

There are a lot of stamina players that do this fairly regularly, using dodge rolls both offensively and defensively to avoid CC and incoming overpowered damage, then dumping their overpowered damage and dodge rolling away from the fight. While I absolutely think that dodge roll spam needs some heavy nerfing, the main issue is damage being far too high. If you couldn't kill someone with such a small expenditure of resources on doing damage, all the dodge rolling wouldn't be so much of an issue (though it'd still be OP for relic running and what not).

DRAGON_KILLER_HUNTER

I 100% agree, damage currently in PVP is too high and the time to kill is way too low!

Would like to see a overall nerf to damage in pvp, maybe via battlespirit

Solariken

I totally agree with OP, it should take more than 1-2 globals to score a kill. I am so tired of these brain-dead 2 button combos that are so effective. Here is bit of how I start to address the problem:

1. Add 500 HP and 500 crit resist to battle spirit.
2. [edit: nevermind, problems with this one]
3. Address Warden sub/shalk. The class needs buffs but this skill is too brain-dead easy mode and covers too much area for so little cost.
4. Remove the stun from DboS.
5. Change Implosion from an execute mechanic to a regular RNG proc based on phys/shock direct damage attacks.

Chilly-McFreeze

Solariken wrote: »

I totally agree with OP, it should take more than 1-2 globals to score a kill. I am so tired of these brain-dead 2 button combos that are so effective. Here is bit of how I start to address the problem:

1. Add 500 HP and 500 crit resist to battle spirit.
2. Reduce weapon/spell damage value in healing coefficients.
3. Address Warden sub/shalk. The class needs buffs but this skill is too brain-dead easy mode and covers too much area for so little cost.
4. Remove the stun from DboS.
5. Change Implosion from an execute mechanic to a regular RNG proc based on phys/shock direct damage attacks.

1. BS already gives you 5k or something health. 500 more HP won't be noticeable.
2. This might be a nerf to healing.

4. Why? Next thing you'll complain about is Incap, Leap, Meteor then?
5. Good way to gut stam sorcs since non of their class skills are direct dmg. Ok, streak.

VaranisArano

DRAGON_KILLER_HUNTER wrote: »

I 100% agree, damage currently in PVP is too high and the time to kill is way too low!

Would like to see a overall nerf to damage in pvp, maybe via battlespirit

Battlespirit is already a 50% damage reduction, as well as a 50% reduction to heals and +5000 health.

What would you like that changed to for the No CP battlegrounds?

Ley

I'm really glad ZOS don't listen to the kind of suggestion mentioned in this thread.

Sugaroverdose

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

time to kill should be longer.
people should not be able to kill eachother in 2 seconds and / or less.

In two seconds people die only if they do nothing, or get multiple enemies, play magplar in reactive if you don't want to die without L2P

none of that matters, you should not be able to be killed that fast.
fight should be a fights that give both sides a chance to hold themselves up for atleast 3 minutes and able to actually have a Fight instead of instant death even if you are not built properly and even if you cannot do alot of damage.

Then do duels with your same-way skilled PvE friends, even for eternity. Player skill progression not less important than gear in PvP and it's only thing why this game is still alive.

DHale

Damage is not even close to out of control. This may not be your cup of tea. However, it is likely a build issue.

Gilvoth

you allready know they are going to die and you will win, why not atleast give peoplea small 2 minute surviveability window to actually HAVE a fight with you.
it is only fair, and people should be allowed to atleast live through a fight atleast long enough to have a Taste of the idea that they are in a fight!
right now if you go into cryodiil and are new to eso and/ or you are not built perfectly you recieve instant Death from seasoned players and that is just foolishness and not fair, atleast let people have a moment to learn and see what pvp is all about instead of punishing them.

Ley

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

you allready know they are going to die and you will win, why not atleast give peoplea small 2 minute surviveability window to actually HAVE a fight with you.
it is only fair, and people should be allowed to atleast live through a fight atleast long enough to have a Taste of the idea that they are in a fight!
right now if you go into cryodiil and are new to eso and/ or you are not built perfectly you recieve instant Death from seasoned players and that is just foolishness and not fair, atleast let people have a moment to learn and see what pvp is all about instead of punishing them.

Can't tell if sarcasm.

You want other players to take their time killing you so that you can feel better about dying to them?

Gilvoth

Ley wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

you allready know they are going to die and you will win, why not atleast give peoplea small 2 minute surviveability window to actually HAVE a fight with you.
it is only fair, and people should be allowed to atleast live through a fight atleast long enough to have a Taste of the idea that they are in a fight!
right now if you go into cryodiil and are new to eso and/ or you are not built perfectly you recieve instant Death from seasoned players and that is just foolishness and not fair, atleast let people have a moment to learn and see what pvp is all about instead of punishing them.

Can't tell if sarcasm.

You want other players to take their time killing you so that you can feel better about dying to them?

not being sarcastic
and im not referring to myself.
i was very clear in what a said, and i stand by my statement.

all people, especially new comers to PvP. should have a chance to get involved in fights without dying Instantly.
all of us should not be able to kill Anyone instantly and within a few seconds.
the time to kill is way too short right now.

Micah_Bayer

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

you allready know they are going to die and you will win, why not atleast give peoplea small 2 minute surviveability window to actually HAVE a fight with you.
it is only fair, and people should be allowed to atleast live through a fight atleast long enough to have a Taste of the idea that they are in a fight!
right now if you go into cryodiil and are new to eso and/ or you are not built perfectly you recieve instant Death from seasoned players and that is just foolishness and not fair, atleast let people have a moment to learn and see what pvp is all about instead of punishing them.

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

you allready know they are going to die and you will win, why not atleast give peoplea small 2 minute surviveability window to actually HAVE a fight with you.
it is only fair, and people should be allowed to atleast live through a fight atleast long enough to have a Taste of the idea that they are in a fight!
right now if you go into cryodiil and are new to eso and/ or you are not built perfectly you recieve instant Death from seasoned players and that is just foolishness and not fair, atleast let people have a moment to learn and see what pvp is all about instead of punishing them.

This is zergling mentality. When I am up against multiple opponents, I should be able to 2 skill burst them if they are not paying attention properly. In wow. I could literally go take a *** while in a fight and come back and still be alive.

Ley

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

you allready know they are going to die and you will win, why not atleast give peoplea small 2 minute surviveability window to actually HAVE a fight with you.
it is only fair, and people should be allowed to atleast live through a fight atleast long enough to have a Taste of the idea that they are in a fight!
right now if you go into cryodiil and are new to eso and/ or you are not built perfectly you recieve instant Death from seasoned players and that is just foolishness and not fair, atleast let people have a moment to learn and see what pvp is all about instead of punishing them.

Can't tell if sarcasm.

You want other players to take their time killing you so that you can feel better about dying to them?

not being sarcastic
and im not referring to myself.
i was very clear in what a said, and i stand by my statement.

all people, especially new comers to PvP. should have a chance to get involved in fights without dying Instantly.
all of us should not be able to kill Anyone instantly and within a few seconds.
the time to kill is way too short right now.

Player 1: Spends hundreds of hours perfecting their build and PVP skills to better enable them to burst down a character as quickly as possible.

Player 2: Comes to PVP in full glass cannon DPS PVE gear and with 13 minutes of PVP experience expects to be on even playing fields as player 1.

OdinForge

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

you allready know they are going to die and you will win, why not atleast give peoplea small 2 minute surviveability window to actually HAVE a fight with you.
it is only fair, and people should be allowed to atleast live through a fight atleast long enough to have a Taste of the idea that they are in a fight!
right now if you go into cryodiil and are new to eso and/ or you are not built perfectly you recieve instant Death from seasoned players and that is just foolishness and not fair, atleast let people have a moment to learn and see what pvp is all about instead of punishing them.

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

you allready know they are going to die and you will win, why not atleast give peoplea small 2 minute surviveability window to actually HAVE a fight with you.
it is only fair, and people should be allowed to atleast live through a fight atleast long enough to have a Taste of the idea that they are in a fight!
right now if you go into cryodiil and are new to eso and/ or you are not built perfectly you recieve instant Death from seasoned players and that is just foolishness and not fair, atleast let people have a moment to learn and see what pvp is all about instead of punishing them.

This is zergling mentality. When I am up against multiple opponents, I should be able to 2 skill burst them if they are not paying attention properly. In wow. I could literally go take a *** while in a fight and come back and still be alive.

This.

Short time to kill suits ESO, when it's too long you get 1.7-1.9 levels of zerging and boring. The only thing that needs to change is that earthgore needs to be removed from ESO.

VaranisArano

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

you allready know they are going to die and you will win, why not atleast give peoplea small 2 minute surviveability window to actually HAVE a fight with you.
it is only fair, and people should be allowed to atleast live through a fight atleast long enough to have a Taste of the idea that they are in a fight!
right now if you go into cryodiil and are new to eso and/ or you are not built perfectly you recieve instant Death from seasoned players and that is just foolishness and not fair, atleast let people have a moment to learn and see what pvp is all about instead of punishing them.

Can't tell if sarcasm.

You want other players to take their time killing you so that you can feel better about dying to them?

not being sarcastic
and im not referring to myself.
i was very clear in what a said, and i stand by my statement.

all people, especially new comers to PvP. should have a chance to get involved in fights without dying Instantly.
all of us should not be able to kill Anyone instantly and within a few seconds.
the time to kill is way too short right now.

Someone in Auridon was asking zone chat today if Battlegrounds was balanced. I said "Like all forms of PVP in this game, Battlegrounds favors experienced players and organized groups."

When I was a newcomer to Cyrodiil PVP, I died very quickly,
I needed PVP gear.
I needed the protection of group members.
I needed to get tankier -I used Plague Doctor, there are other good sets to use, especially in BGs.
I needed experience in reading the battle, learning the counters, and using my own build.

Pretty much in that order. Uping my survivability and sticking with my team bought me the chance to live long enough to learn how to play in Cyrodiil.

None of that, I should note, required the enemy to go easy on me or do any less overall damage. If that is a need, I suggest that new players practice dueling with someone willing to train them. Otherwise, I suspect that coming prepared for a PVP environment, getting a team of friends or guildmates together, and paying attention to what works and what doesn't will make a big difference. The learning curve for PVP is a steep one and requires the willingness to rez up and keep trying.

Sharee

I agree that TTK is too low. Especially when you take into account latency times - it is often impossible to CC break fast enough to survive that burst, even if you start at full HP. The closer TTK comes to latency times, the more fights are decided by "who hits first".

However simply increasing HP wouldn't work, because there are builds which are virtually unkillable unless you burst them down within the duration of CC break animation.

Solution will probably involve more thorough rebalancing of hitpoints, defense, damage, and healing.

brandonv516

My suggestions for no-CP battlegrounds:

-Remove poisons.
-Add a cool down to debuffs after being purged (minor maim, defile, etc.). 2-3 seconds should suffice.
-Change the sigil in deathmatch as an underdog feature or remove it all together.

These would improve the TTK from being so short.

Anotherone773

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Thats about 15% critical resist. I dont use impen. gear in pvp because i dont play it seriously. One of the reason being the one in this thread. CC, and two shot isnt pvp. But i have the same experiences in pvp. I dont even get the chance to recover from CC before im killed.

Personally, i think they should remove critical hits from pvp and remove CC, lets see how good everyone is without PVE crutches.

*plays pvp without proper gear bc he thinks pvp is stupid*
*dies fast due to lack of proper gear*
*intensifies opinion about pvp being stupid*

Noooo...i actually enjoy pvp in pvp games. This half assed attempt at pvp is a joke. I pvp in ESO because its required for things i want. If i want to scratch my pvp itch, ill play EVE where its 100 times more fun. I dont play pve games to pvp. Thats just silly.

Its not Zenimax's fault, they modeled their pvp off similar games that toss it in as an after thought. I have found that games based on PVE that have PVP in it as well( usually instanced) are terrible at player vs player combat mechanics. So when i want to pvp, i play a game based on pvp. When i want to be left alone and just chill and carebear it up, i play a game like this.

technohic

That doesn’t look that bad considering you ate a DBOS , took a full jab channel and a burning light proc. Need to have
HOTs up and shields proactively.

As is; you get someone who knows what they are doing proactively and you don’t get defile on them; you’re not going to kill them. I know about a year ago before heavy armor was nerfed; I was in the same opinion that TTK would be too short; but over the year I’ve found heavy armor is just part of it.