Thieves Guild Content Feedback

AuldWolf

Let me say first that I love stealth games. I've been playing them since the original Dark Project and I find there's a lot to love. I still play them regularly, I've aced Styx a bunch of times. I've come to understand what amounts to gameplay excellence, I'm genre savvy, and I brought that understanding to ESO. Now, I'm not really expecting ESO to be the second coming of Thief: Deadly Shadows (which was good, especially with player mods, unlike THI4F), but I did have certain expectations.

So this brings me to the Thieves Guild DLC and trespassing gameplay. I certainly have thoughts to offer; And as much as it saddens me to say this? The cotent itself is fairly terrible. I feel it even lessens the quality of the overall game; But please, let me explain why.

PREFACE

Abah's Landing is a beautiful city; The area is fun to explore, I love the verticality and its maze-like nature. Aesthetics and narrative are never aspects that the Zenimax creative team have had problems with, in fact, the Theives Guild exemplifies just how talented these people are.

The problem -- as is usually the case -- is in the execution of gameplay ideas.

A GOOD STEALTH GAME

There are a few pledges made between designer and player with a stealth game. These are almost a sacrament in nature, as strictured in realisation as the gun play of any first person shooter. There are certain factors which must be present in order for a stealth game to be considered as such; Let alone as a good one, and one that people would actually want to play.

So, let's look at the basics:

• Interesting environments to explore;

• Fun things to steal;

• Hiding spots to escape the view of prying eyes;

• Proper enemy management tools;

• And excellent sound design.

Let's look at each of these in order.

ENVIRONMENTS

Here's an area where ZOS tends to excel, this is especially true if the Covenant team isn't involved (I'm sorry, but Wrothgar and the Covenant areas aren't exactly the most compelling environments). The Thieves Guild content has fun locales to sneakily saunter around.

There are even multiple paths to approach the content; Some of which are tricks, others are to cater to people with different playstyles. I respect and admire the forethought that went into the environment design in this regard.

So ESO passes on this point.

FUN STEALING

The descriptions of the stolen items are very entertaining; And we can actually acquire clothing items that can't be found anywhere else in the game. The rewards for theft actually feel fulfilling and rewarding. In fact, I'd say that ESO does as well with this as any other thief game I've played. It's a shame that there are no fun items standing out in the world to be pilfered (I'd love to steal a painting from a frame, roll it up, and make away with it) but the lack of that is understandable. Ultimately ESO is still an MMO.

So, once again, top marks for effort.

HIDING SPOTS

Things go a little awry here but it's still okay for the most part. I think that some of the hiding spots are too hidden for what they should be offering to a player who's found themself in a bad situation. Furthermore, cover doesn't always work as it should. Guards and especially NPCs shouldn't be able to see around corners or through a vanity screen.

Still, much of this is forgiveable because there are at least the baskets. So ESO barely scrapes by. Just barely, but it does.

ENEMY MANAGEMENT

And here's the first strike.

What's the difference between Skyrim and Thief: Deadly Shadows? The only tool you have to deal with people in Skyrim is murdering them. It's a point of shame that ESO is exactly the same. I see players going through trespassing content regularly and murdering people because they simply have no other options.

What could be done about this? I understand it's an MMO, but why is there no mechanic for stunning NPCs -- even guards? Give the player a special weapon which they have to heavy attack with; If they do it successfully it stuns the guard/NPC for a period of time. This allows for better management to give the player some amount of control over patrol routes.

As it is, though, it's absolutely abysmal that there are no tools beyond either trying to escape whilst spamming invisibility potions/dodge rolling or murder. As I've said, I see that most players just opt to murder NPCs from the outset because it's just too much trouble to leave them alive, that's saddening. That's the hallmark of a bad stealth game, one that even gets the most entry-level aspects wrong.

ESO fails, here. Badly. If your only management tool is murder, that's a fail.

SOUND DESIGN

This one's the big one.

It struck me with ESO just how good sound design is in the vast majority of games that have stealth; It actually took how awful ESO is in this regard for me to come to truly appreciate how much effort goes into other games. This is important because of accessibility. Stealth games are surprisingly accessible to people who have visual disabilities, I'll explain why.

In a good stealth game, you can expect the following:

• Footstep sounds;

• Guards muttering to themselves;

• Guards talking to other guards;

• Sounds to indicate that it's safe to pass.

The last one might be difficult to understand, but in a thief game an NPC will be making environment interaction sounds so you know they're distracted. Guards will snore (they'll be asleep) if it's safe to pass them and they're not being too attentive. If a guard is moving they'll make heavily-armoured footstep sounds, their armour will rustle and jangle thanks to its heavy leather and metallic parts. It's incredibly invlved and the effort really informs the player.

Furthermore, NPCs will stop to be social and converse; This includes the guards. Guards will inform other guards that their route is clear, NPCs will stop to chitchat with one another. All of these aspects provide the player with audio cues to explain what's going on in the environment creating a very three-dimensional soundscape that the thief benefits from. I rely on sound so heavily in stealth games that I sometimes feel like Matt Murdock (Daredevil of Marvel comics) in how I traverse the environment, I travel more by my ears than my eyes.

ESO has none of this.

You'll be lucky if the NPCs stop to say anything. The guards are quieter than ghosts. It all adds up to not only an extremely disappointing, unsatisfying stealth experience but also one that's inaccessible to people who're partially sighted. My poor sight is why I prefer stealth games over action games; They're more oriented around listening to the environment and paying attention to sound cues than they are, say, about quick reflexes or precision based upon visual factors.

A three-dimensional soundscape is absolutely paramount to a good stealth game. And ESO doesn't even have one, at all, let alone a bad one. The guards should make so much more noise than they do; They should mutter, check in, and make footstep sounds but they're just so eerily silent. It's like they're not even there right up until they spot you.

A BAD STEALTH GAME

I think it's fair to say that ESO qualifies as a bad stealth game; It's actually worse than Skyrim because even though Skyrim might not have tools to manage one's foes whilst out and about, it does at least have above-average sound design. Damning, faint praise, certainly, but Skyrim barely qualifies as an average stealth game, there's nothing about it that I could say is good in particular.

If you can't even muster Skyrim's sub par standards, you're doing something profoundly wrong. As we can see from this treatise, it's at least a couple of very particular somethings that the ESO devs sorely need to address.

And as much as it pains me, the bad news doesn't end there.

HELL IS OTHER PEOPLE

I'm mad, Zenimax, about how you have instancing (Haven proves this) but you don't use it for trespassing. Whyever not??

Thanks to how your aggro mechanics work, if someone else who isn't even on my party antagonises a guard, that guard can then turn around and spot me even if I've not personally made any mistakes. That's simply unacceptable in a stealth game. It's a cardinal sin to punish the player for something outside of their control (trespassing zones should be instanced, Haven-style).

In fact, stealth games should never do anything to the player that's beyond their control. This is why THI4F was considered to be such an awful thief game; Sure, the open world thievery was really fun (I'll give it that, they nailed that), but the missions would have you falling through rooftops beyond your control and thus generating lots of noise. That stressed me out no end. Assassin's Creed has some of the same shortcomings, but I wouldn't call Assassin's Creed a stealth game any more. It stopped being that after the very first game. I'd say its focus now is spectacle, specifically of a parkour nature, but I digress.

The thing is? ESO's trespassing content could be good. it has potential, and a lot of promise. As it is, it's bad. If this were a stealth game it would be one of the worst I've ever played.

I cannot stress how important it is to have good audio design in a stealth game. There's nothing more important than that; From both a gameplay perspective and an accessibility one. And the lack of tools to manage enemies without murder on top of that (especially since the Thieves Guild is very anti-murder) is abominable. I really hope that Zenimax will do a second pass on this content, because it really deserves better.

I can see how with a proper soundscape and decent enemy management the thieving content could be incredibly fun; Instead of the annoying, frustrating, and poorly designed chore that it is now.

Thanks for reading. (@ZOS_RichLambert, @ZOS_GinaBruno)

Huyen

If you want better stealth go play thief again. Its an ES game so changing the way things work os kinda going against the franchise. You wouldnt like thief either when you suddenly become a dualwielding beserker...

Edit: typos

Leandor

May I ask what brought on the assumption that ESO, either in parts or fully, is supposed to be a stealth game? Or the assumption that Thieves' Guild DLC is supposed to be a separate "mini game" based around stealth within ESO?

Everstorm

I greatly enjoyed both Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood. That being said it is indeed very clear that the whole system is a bit of an afterthought that doesn't really blend well with the rest of the game. ESO is not a stealth game, it's an adventuring game with stealth tacked on. I could add a list with things that annoy me about the justice system but it's been discussed a lot on these boards already.

Royaji

Ehm. do you really expect a fully fleshed stealth experience in a MMO? Sorry, that's not how it works. Stealth games only have... well, stealth. In ESO you have a massive open-world, numeros group dungeons, several mechanically challenging trials, PvP and some stealth gameplay to break up the pace.

Development time is a finite resources and wasting it all on one aspect of a MMO is not going to end well.

Azurya

your first point with the sigh critic concerning the covenant areas is your opinion, not mine, and not those of others. I think they have their character and it is awesome, especially Rivenspire, but also Bangkorai, Stormhaven, Glenumbra, I love it.

stealth is good enough, perhaps you should consider putting some skillpoints in the legerdemain skillline.

the gameplay while sneaking takes time, but that is okay for me, I look around the edges, watch what guards, NPCs are doing and plan my next move.
But yeah, you have your experience and I have mine.

Liddyenna

Leandor wrote: »

May I ask what brought on the assumption that ESO, either in parts or fully, is supposed to be a stealth game? Or the assumption that Thieves' Guild DLC is supposed to be a separate "mini game" based around stealth within ESO?

Because you sent on missions to steal stuff! Bit of a clue there!
OP is correct, if they do not have the stealthing and stealing mechanics in place, they should not release pay for DLC centering around them.
All very well saying don't buy it then, but you have to buy it to discover it fails!

CelestialSlayer

You get the blade of woe for dark brotherhood. Why can't you get something like a stun move or a distraction tool for thieves guild. Seems like the poorer cousin to dark brotherhood.

logarifmik

Well said, comrade, I completely agree with you. There are many ways to improve stealth/thieving part of the game. But one should keep in mind, that it's a MMO game, so unfortunately complex NPC behaviour, for example, is hardly possible to implement. Nevertheless, all your ideas should be taken into account by devs. In particular, trespassing instancing idea is brilliant. Personally, I would like to see more solo instances in this game, like it was in TOR for example. Much more immersive experience, I must say.

Ley

CelestialSlayer wrote: »

You get the blade of woe for dark brotherhood. Why can't you get something like a stun move or a distraction tool for thieves guild. Seems like the poorer cousin to dark brotherhood.

A distraction tool would be fantastic!

Violynne

AuldWolf wrote: »

Thanks to how your aggro mechanics work, if someone else who isn't even on my party antagonises a guard, that guard can then turn around and spot me even if I've not personally made any mistakes. That's simply unacceptable in a stealth game.

This isn't the fault of the game.

It's the fault of impatient players who only want to get through the area and couldn't care less about bounties they can easily wipe away with edicts.

The only way this would be "fixed" is turning the quests into solos, and this isn't going to happen. TG is barely on an instance it can sustain multiple players, so it's extremely unlikely we'll see solo instances.

Thank goodness for edicts. Not for the guards. Inconsiderate players.

Leandor

Liddyenna wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

May I ask what brought on the assumption that ESO, either in parts or fully, is supposed to be a stealth game? Or the assumption that Thieves' Guild DLC is supposed to be a separate "mini game" based around stealth within ESO?

Because you sent on missions to steal stuff! Bit of a clue there!
OP is correct, if they do not have the stealthing and stealing mechanics in place, they should not release pay for DLC centering around them.
All very well saying don't buy it then, but you have to buy it to discover it fails!

No, he is not. He assumes that because of a title (which has a long tradition im ES games) or the fact that this game does have a stealth mechanism, justifies his expectation to have a similar game experience as "stealth games".

This is a typical strawman.

The game sends you on a mission within the game's mechanics and ambience. To argue that because of the name "thieves' guild", the stealth mechanics must be in line with his expectations is... a leap of faith, nothing more.