Warden tank in trials

Dardas

I have both a DK and Warden tank and I am starting to get into trials.

I was told that the Warden tank will have a very hard time doing the harder content in trials.

I know the DK is stronger than the warden in terms of tanking, but is it significant enough to not use the Warden to tank harder Trials?

The reason I have not been using the DK is I find the Warden to be a little more fun to play, as well as more useful in PVP, but I was expecting it to be able to tank all the Trials as well since it is the 2nd best tank in the game.

BejaProphet

There are three different questions that may have different answers.

1. Can an experienced trial tank who knows his stuff tank the trial content with a warden? Yes.

2. Can you as a new tank who does not know the fights do it with a slightly less forgiving class? Perhaps.

3. Will a trial team give you a chance to try it as somebody new, who is willingly taking on a disadvantage? Unlikely.

SupremeRissole

I have seen players like @Liofa tank hardmode vMoL on a warden. It is doable but you need to be good andhave good healers to help you out.

DK is significantly easier to use mainly due to battle roar snd helping hands passives combined with igneous shield's mending passive and burst heal green dragon blood.

But you can do all content on s warden tank if you know how.

FakeFox

I'm not much of a tank player, but I can tell you from my experience that for 90% of trial content it pretty much doesn't matter.
Buffs and stacks are what matters and they don't depend on your class, everything else is a question of personal taste and skill. I've tanked everything except vHoF and vAS on both DK and NB and there was apart from the lack of chains no real difference.

Liofa

SupremeRissole wrote: »

I have seen players like @Liofa tank hardmode vMoL on a warden. It is doable but you need to be good andhave good healers to help you out.

DK is significantly easier to use mainly due to battle roar snd helping hands passives combined with igneous shield's mending passive and burst heal green dragon blood.

But you can do all content on s warden tank if you know how.

Thanks for the mention

To OP , you can tank every trial in Hard Mode with every class if you are experienced enough and know how to build your class and how to play it . DK , as said before , has the easiest time while tanking . There isn't really much difference . If you are a beginner , I highly recommend starting out as a DK . After you have experience , you can tank some 4 man stuff on your Warden , learn the basics of tanking for Warden and bring it to a trial . Always test out your builds in 4-man stuff because they will push you more . There are some 4 man content that is much harder to tank compared to most trials , especially the new dungeons . Main Tanking in most trials is really , really easy to do as long as you follow mechanics . Hope you get there fast , good luck

profundidob16_ESO

BejaProphet wrote: »

There are three different questions that may have different answers.

1. Can an experienced trial tank who knows his stuff tank the trial content with a warden? Yes.

2. Can you as a new tank who does not know the fights do it with a slightly less forgiving class? Perhaps.

3. Will a trial team give you a chance to try it as somebody new, who is willingly taking on a disadvantage? Unlikely.

perfectly put here by BejaProphet !

@OP: consider for a moment that if you plan on doing the hardest trial/group content, you expect the healers and dps to bring the best possible class/spec for the job in order to maximize your chances right ? Wouldn't it make sense that the group expects THE main tank (read: the single point of failure for any 12man trial group) to do the same ?

You can easily carry 2 dps in a 12 man group that leads to the group producing a little less dps simply slowing down the fight a little, but if the main tank runs out of stamina and gets killed the boss turns on everyone else...

commdt

We had warden as off tank for vet trials (vMOL, vHOF) as we didnt have a choice. Warden dont have Engulfing flames, Magma armor (which leaves him unable to main 2nd boss in vHOF) and overall worse control/sustain/survivability, but has better ultimate gain for warhorn. If it is your main and thats it than you can be off tank (when youll find a party which will accept this otherwise pick DK

Kumbiya

I would like to see more competition in the tanking meta, but as it stands currently DKs have several major advantages over every other class..

1. Engulfing Flames - no other class comes close to having a support ability like this; it's especially useful now with the off balance changes, since now most magicka dps use two inferno staves and EF increases raid fire damage.
2. Chains - no other class comes close to having a utility spell like Chains; portal comes close, but it's much more cumbersome to pull in adds with portal as compared to chains. Certain fights, like the Twins in vMoL, are unforgiving to tanks without chains.
3. Helping Hands & Battle Roar passives - DKs have much better sustain than other tanking classes due to these passives.
4. Green Dragon Blood - No other tanking class has a strong self heal like GDB, which is especially useful for encounters like Rakkhat to survive the machine gun mechanic.
5. General Raiding meta - this has less to do with DKs themselves rather than the meta; most raid groups simply expect their trial tanks to be DKs with little room for exception.

That being said, I do think Wardens can be good tanks, especially in 4 man content since they are better at off healing than DKs.

BejaProphet

One thing that needs to be considered is the nature of Trials. Wardens already have a built in advantage over DK's. They are able to heal other people. That is a very real advantage to tanking in many contexts. The problem comes when a player moves to trials, they get extremely specialized. Healers may be expected to DPS in a dungeon, but in a trial they become increasingly specialized on the healing aspect. So also with the warden tank. In a trial a tank is expected to only tank, the trial group finds no extra merit in a tank that could throw out a few heals because in large group context you have 2 players specifically dedicated to the healing. Even though in many venues this is a tremendous advantage, it is not in a trial.

It would be a big mistake I think to try to balance out their "tanking." Because the problem is not that these classes are unbalanced. The problem is we are talking about a context that just happens to not play to a major strength of the warden class. If you balance them for trial tanking, to where they are truly equally preferable in the hardest tank content, then why ever play a DK? You'd definitely pick the warden who can easily step into every other role. Just my 2cents.

Lynx7386

I have to disagree with some of the assertions about warden tanks here.

First: sustain
Wardens will have bull netch and natures gift going 100% of the time. Those two combined easily gives you an extra 1000 stamina recovery at little to no cost. Dk helping hands is 990 or less based on how quickly you spam it, and costs a huge amount of magicka to keep casting(igneous shield). The difference can be made up for with mountains blessing but ultimately dk and warden have very similar sustain while blocking (personally I give it yo the warden because more of them are using ice staff back bar than dks, which allows for permablocking far more easily).
Warden has far better ultimate generation on most fights due to shimmering shield and the passive ultimate gain from shalks. Both stack with heroic slash.

Second: defense
There is no notable difference in how "tough" a dk tank is compared to a warden tank. The only ability that makes an impact here is dragon blood as an emergency heal, which is significantly more powerful than arctic blast or the green balance heals. However there are very few situations where that emergency heal is needed as long as your healers aren't dying left and right.

Third: pulling
Everyone loves chains, and it is better for a couple bosses, but imo portals are better all around. They're easier to use, apply major maim, and can pull some targets that are immune to chains.

The generalisation that wardens are inferior to dk tanks is just being perpetrated by the fact that no streamers have picked up the warden and tried to use it for that content, and the few who have think the warden is supposed to play just like a dk when tanking.

Dk has one definite advantage for trials over wardens, though, and that's engulfing flames.

BejaProphet

@Lynx7386 I agree with a good bit of your thoughts. I too think that if a big name began to run warden consistently it would make trial groups more open to them. But from everything I've read and from what I've followed in the forum discussions on these categories you list, we do see the DK with some advantage.

Sustain: I can't remember who I was reading, I want to say Liofa, but I'd hate to mistakenly put words in his mouth. Anyways, they described the sustain between the two classes as extremely comparable, only that DK sustain is more forgiving. Meaning that for the warden, you have to be continually managing your sustain abilities to not fall behind, and if you do fall behind you 1k regain (using your estimation) isn't going to save you. On the other hand since the DK gets his hallmark sustain in one large burst, they can make mistakes, but just click their ultimate and get their tail pulled out of the fire so to speak. The person's conclusion after playing both a lot was that they have similar capabilities yet DK's was easier to do.

Defense: Once a very dedicated tank and guild mate abandoned his beloved warden tank to go back to his DK tank. I asked why out of curiosity and I was shocked when he said that the warden was squishier. I had never expected that answer. He told me to go look at the passives. And sure enough the DK has 3,300 spell resist, 10% extra damage blocked, and +12% healing received while draconic ability active (GDB). And you yourself said green dragon blood outclassed the warden's ability to self heal. I'm not suggesting this is an insurmountable difference, but isn't this a clear advantage for DK however minor?

Pulling: I can't speak to this one other than that everyone seems to prefer chains. I have no knowledge of the warden equivalent.

Debuffing resistances: You yourself gave this one to the DK with engulfing flames.

So while I agree that the gap is not what people make it to be...what are your thoughts on these points? I am asking in sincerity because I want to learn more about the comparison. I've not played a warden tank, but from what I can tell, it seems that in every key area of tanking (which you identified well) the DK seems to have a minor, yet clear, advantage on the warden.

Lynx7386

For resources sure, dk is easier. Warden has a much steeper learning curve, but I've been tanking almost since pc release on every class, so I guess I'm more accustomed to dealing with inferior sustain mechanics than what the dk gets.

Defense wise I don't particularly feel squishier on my warden than I do on any other class tanking, but I definitely think the warden gains the advantage for general group support, healing, and damage output, so it evens out a bit in the end.

For debuffing, engulfing flames is the clear winner, but if you have a magdk providing that debuff it creates room for a non dk tank. I also find having an aoe major fracture & breach to be extremely valuable, and crowd control is notable easier on a warden for me.
Its also nice having an essentially spammable major maim at your disposal.

xaraan

Looks like you are getting every answer known to man and none of them are the same lol, so I guess I'll add to it.

Info on me: I run vHM trials and dungeons as tank and do so on every class.

DK Tank is easy mode compared to any other class IMO.

What does DK bring to the table?

It has chains and talons (not as missed in trials outside of vMoL) as much as dungeons IMO. Warden has the circle as a substitute for chains, but it's slower and often 'meh' in comparison, but usable. Sorc has encase, which in some instances is actually more useful than talons (and some not). A morph of Talons also applies Maim to the mobs it grabs as well, which is another benefit.

It has a strong burst heal in Dragons Blood. And an OK HoT in cauterize (actually it's usually my #1 self heal) and even Burning Embers can be a strong and not to expensive heal if used right. Someone said it's the only class with a strong burst heal, this is not quite accurate as Sorc Tank/clanny heal is stronger, however it comes with the additional concern of making sure your pet stays alive. Templar tanks and Warden tanks come after these two classes with moderate burst heals, and personally I prefer the Warden b/c I can sustain extended strong heals more easily. It's not as fast as DK, but once you get timing/use right for Blossoms/Polar Wind it's enough to deal with almost any problem and actually offers more group utility. NB tanks are horrible in burst healing and even their HoTs are lackluster compared to other classes. DKs also have a passive healing in bonus with Earthen Heart ability active, other classes do have healing bonuses of different types, but it's worth mentioning this is not a minor/major buff and can be stacked.

It has the only 'crap has hit the fan' button and I need to live no matter what skill in magma Ultimate. It's not only amazing survivability for you, but offers a shield for team mates as well. Though there are some one shot mechanics it still won't survive, so beware. But no other class has this - Warden trees are excellent in their own way, but won't save you from something that Magma will. Same for Sword/Board ulti, Healing Negate, Templar Heal Ulti or Bolstering Darkness. All good mit/heals, but nothing on that level. They do offer benefits that Magma lacks, but in the end, the uses will end up very different.

DK's have engulfing flames. No other class has a skill that gives a 10% buff for the whole group in a widely used damage type. Personally I find this to be OP in the current meta and think it should only buff the DK's own fire abilities, but as it stands, it's hard to top.

Shields. No other class really has the shielding DKs can bring to the table with Igneous. If you are fighting certain bosses, Warden's Ice Shield can be OP, but outside of that, worthless. Sorcs and Templars have an OK shield, and once again NBs have nothing at all to bring to the table for this one. Not only is Igneous Shields pretty easy to keep up with a good regen build, but it also shields your team (still a good use even though it was nerfed) AND using a skill from that skill line gives you stamina back - so you are shielding yourself AND giving yourself Major Mending bonus AND giving your self stam at the same time (which brings me to....)

Resource Management. Sure, running Argonian is always helpful if you need help managing resources, but it's also nice having your resources somewhat replenished for doing nothing more than just using your ultimate as DKs do. On top of this, it's one of the few classes that can regen stam while blocking by using Igneous. Your other class, Warden offers this as well if you run the stam netch. Sorc can use Dark Deal (though it drops block, it's strong if used right) and NB has an OK ability in siphon strikes here, but not as strong as the others. Templars have nothing unless you are fighting trash and using repentance, but I wish the other morph of their circle gave stam back same way the magicka morph gives magicka back (even if blocking). That way every class had some way to use an ability to get a small stam return even while tanking.

Mitigation. DKs have a passive that gives them extra damage mitigation while blocking. Templars have a similar version, but is a bit stronger - however only works against melee hits. Wardens come close by giving your Major Protection from one of the morphs of your Ice Armor, so in this area it comes close. Though if you are ever in a situation where you are able to stack Major Protection (from other sources like Fighter's Guild Circle) with that other Mit, then Warden will miss out b/c you can't stack Major Prot with another Major Prot - but this isn't a huge deal breaker. Just thought it worth mentioning. Sorcs don't have any passive damage mit (unless I forget something) and neither do.... wait for it: NBs.

Not a huge deal breaker, but it also has an AoE interrupt in Deep Breath. This is extremely useful in some runs/situations, but again, you could live without it if everything else was equal. But it's worth mentioning just b/c this is the one tank class where you are fighting between good abilities to have on your bar and not just looking for what might be helpful to do the base job of tanking. Even the skills they have no mentioned here like Wings, Ash Cloud, etc. can be decent tanking tools in the right situation, they just aren't better than some of the other options for valuable skill bar real estate.

Those are the big things that often stand out to me when I've run like really challenging runs of content, whether it's vHMs of dungeons or trials (esp with less that solid teams sometimes). When you really get tested in those moments, the differences stand out.

I do really enjoy my Warden tank, and it feels like a solid tank esp if you want to run a heal/tank build for certain dungeons or runs. But DK is, like I said, easy mode compared to other classes and I prefer it when trying to figure out a new run or doing something crazy hard b/c of a new strat or team. When I run a trial for the first time, it's on my DK and I'll use other classes when I know what I'm in for and have the mechanics down.